OOTS #883 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[CoffeeIncluded]

V...Come on, V. We need you. Now's your chance.

[Thanatosia]

Wow, that is harsh Qarr

And vampire Durkon is so cute 'Can I summon a fiend too master!'

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Yay! Does this mean we're going to switch back to what V's doing now?

[TLhikan]

Hm, I thought that Nale would be more attached to the Evil Opposites theme. No matter.

I wonder what Tarquin will be doing off to himself...

[Skeletor]

Ha Sabine is hilarious, I wonder what sort of porn they get there.

[Zephyr1011]

Is it wrong that I find Blackwing hilarious on such a sad topic?

[Mr.Rictus]

Sure Nale, insulting your team members is surely the key to victory! Also, what on earth are Tarquin and Kilkil going to be doing in the meantime?

[Harbajar]

I wonder just how many Channels Sabine has to flick through?

VampDurkon - so cute - expresion of helping

[The_Tentacle]

Where did those summoning circles come from?

I bet Tarquin is waiting to welcome his adventurer buddies.

[Timeless Error]

Oh, no. The last thing V needs right now is more verbal lambasting from Qarr.

Also, things really look bad for the Order right now. Unless things turn around quickly, this looks like it'll be a fairly one-sided conflict.

Count Durkula is eerily adorable.

[B. Dandelion]

So... whatever Tarquin's up to, it is something that requires Kilkil? I wonder what that could be?

[nogall]

Some thoughts:

1) Durkon lost his accent?

2) Quarr was maybe sent by the fiends to talk V to go back to the order, so that the Linear Guild wouldn't win right away...?

[Kish]

Well. We can hopefully put to rest "Vampire Durkon must have lost his clerical abilities." And, though I didn't see anyone actually suggest this one, we can preemptively put to rest "Vampire Durkon, even while directly controlled by Malack, still functions as a good-aligned cleric" as well.

[XanKrieger]

Is it also odd that Blackwing has about 3 of my favorite comedic lines in the entire story?

Interestingly enough, all of them on the topic of V's mass murder and soul-selling
Spoiler of the sake of I don't, doing it.

Meanwhile, in Plot news. Malack seems agitated during his plea to Tarquin before being shushed. Is it okay to assume this is about Durkon requesting that the rest of the OOTS be spared?

[RickDaily12]

:smallsigh:

I am deeply bothered to say that I am THRILLED to see Q'arr again.

Anything to make up for the loss of Durkon, really, at this point.

[Nightclaws]

Can we all just take note of the last panel.

"It's history's worst mass-murderer and HIS dim-witted bird."

[hamishspence]

It's interesting to see Qaar again- I'm wondering what V will say once V stops crying.

[Morgan Wick]

Can we all just take note of the last panel.

"It's history's worst mass-murderer and HIS dim-witted bird."

As always, that only indicates what he thinks V's gender is.

[XanKrieger]

Can we all just take note of the last panel.

"It's history's worst mass-murderer and HIS dim-witted bird."


That means nothing, how would Qarr know what V's gender is. He didn't know when he was on the island with V. It's not like the Fiends could help him because they didn't know either. Unless you're implying that somehow by being associated with Zz gleams some knowledge onto V's gender. Doesn't really make sense, everyone just uses pronouns for V according to what they perceive.

[Chad30]

That's not the first time someone has called V a him or her. All it means is what the character believes.

I'm kind of glad that Malack is lampshading how long this arc has been. It's been enjoyable, but looong.

Q'arr is like V's bad angel, where Blackwing is his good angel. Q'arr will probably try to get V back in action to help the Order, since his bosses want to keep the conflict going.

[HylianKnight]

I'm surprised Nale is so happy to be getting rid of the evil opposites theme, given how much he's been obsessed with it up until this point.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Poor V! D:

And here, Qarr reminds us that his kind are tormentors.

[Zephyr1011]

I note that Malack is refraining from telling any of the LG about him obeying Durkon's dying wishes. Will he be subverting the LG from within to protect them? He seems to be honouring them, what with letting Belkar go free when he could've easily killed him.

Nale seems to be forgoing the convoluted plan this time around. A sign of character development?

[Aurorax]

Wow. He's probably doing irreversible damage to V's psyche.

[asdflove]

Can we all just take note of the last panel.

"It's history's worst mass-murderer and HIS dim-witted bird."

That's just Qarr's opinion.

[B. Dandelion]

Meanwhile, in Plot news. Malack seems agitated during his plea to Tarquin before being shushed. Is it okay to assume this is about Durkon requesting that the rest of the OOTS be spared?

I thought he was annoyed at Tarquin once again sort of "giving" him as a spellcaster to Nale, since he hates Nale and the rebuttal last time was also "business".

[Snails]

Ha Sabine is hilarious, I wonder what sort of porn they get there.

I bet many involve Paladins. Naughty thrills seducing Paladins and getting turned to Good? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html)

[The Giant]

Whoops, left Kilkil out of Panel #4. Fixed now.

[TRH]

You know, my opinion of Malack went up again with this one - this 'tiresome struggle' does feel like it needs its 'overdue conclusion', at times.

As for Qarr...I dunno what he's got in mind this time. It seems pretty obvious to me that the reason he skipped out earlier was to tell the IFCC that V killed the Draketooths; that was the only new and urgent information available at the time. My guess right now is that the fiends are gonna offer V some means of keeping the Gate safe, since Girard's defenses seem like they're running out. Or maybe he's just there to tell the elf that they're calling in the soul debt, in order to keep Xykon from taking the Gate. Just my immediate thoughts.

[Waspinator]

Yeah, this isn't the first time a character has assumed they know V's gender. Until we have evidence that they actually know for sure, it doesn't mean much.

Anyway, I hope V can snap out of it and go help. The OotS really needs it right now.

[Alex Star]

I wonder just how many Channels Sabine has to flick through?


It's HELL... it's all Reality TV all the time... 1,000 Channels of Jersey Shore

[Shale]

Whoops, left Kilkil out of Panel #4. Fixed now.

I thought he was hiding or something. Or it was just an illustration of his contribution to the team.

Anyway....uh-oh.

[Sunken Valley]

Is that a piscoloth? Busting out of core again Rich?

[Lurkmoar]

Heh.

"History isn't over yet." Nice one.

[Snails]

Q'arr is like V's bad angel, where Blackwing is his good angel. Q'arr will probably try to get V back in action to help the Order, since his bosses want to keep the conflict going.

That makes sense. Tarquin seizing the Gate is very high on the list of things IFCC definitely does not want to happen, especially without Sabine around to "advise" Nale.

[Faili]

His dim-witted bird? :confused:

[Chad30]

You know, my opinion of Malack went up again with this one - this 'tiresome struggle' does feel like it needs its 'overdue conclusion', at times.

As for Qarr...I dunno what he's got in mind this time. It seems pretty obvious to me that the reason he skipped out earlier was to tell the IFCC that V killed the Draketooths; that was the only new and urgent information available at the time. My guess right now is that the fiends are gonna offer V some means of keeping the Gate safe, since Girard's defenses seem like they're running out. Or maybe he's just there to tell the elf that they're calling in the soul debt, in order to keep Xykon from taking the Gate. Just my immediate thoughts.

I'd be interested in seeing them do that.

[Faili]

I wonder just how many Channels Sabine has to flick through?

VampDurkon - so cute - expresion of helping

Infinite channels with nothing on..... :smallbiggrin:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Two things:

1. Wow, I thought Durkon would have to re-dedicate himself to an evil god or cause before he got his spells back! I guess in this world, only Paladins have to suck on insanely harsh code rules. :smallannoyed:

2. If V *is* history's worst mass murderer, then Haerta must have never actually used Familiacide. Because even if she had also only used it once like V, I'm pretty sure her murder count from general "becoming an epic level necromancer" out takes dwarfs V's general murder count to date.

Which is good, I was pretty upset with the gross power of that spell and the fact that not one mention of the "unspeakably powerful godlike evil that once lived" had been mentioned in the comic. You don't just research and use a spell like that without it being remembered as a cataclysmic apocolyptic event. So confirmation it has never been used before helps make the versimilitude jive much more for me. :smallsmile:

[Gift Jeraff]

So does Nale have his sword or not?

And I was curious if Vampire Durkon was going to have a different magic colour.

Also, I accidentally started to type this post in a report post text box...and the post was from The Giant. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Those two summoned monsters look like a barbed devil, and a piscoloth (a lobsterlike yugoloth).

[MoonCat]

V... :smallfrown:

[Cikomyr]

His dim-witted bird? :confused:

Doesn't mean anything :smalltongue:

[TRH]

Hey, I just realized - since Durkon can cast spells already, and obviously ones that a Lawful Good priest of Thor wouldn't be able to - we're not getting a scene where he chooses a new god to worship. Ergo, no first priest of Hel. Aww...:smallfrown:

[MartectX]

Hee hee, nice one with the evil opposites... :smallwink:

[CoffeeIncluded]

2. If V *is* history's worst mass murderer, then Haerta must have never actually used Familiacide. Because even if she had also only used it once like V, I'm pretty sure her murder count from general "becoming an epic level necromancer" out takes dwarfs V's general murder count to date.

Which is good, I was pretty upset with the gross power of that spell and the fact that not one mention of the "unspeakably powerful godlike evil that once lived" had been mentioned in the comic. You don't just research and use a spell like that without it being remembered as a cataclysmic apocolyptic event. So confirmation it has never been used before helps make the versimilitude jive much more for me. :smallsmile:

I saw it as more Qarr twisting the knife in V's chest even more.

[MelTorefas]

... Or maybe he's just there to tell the elf that they're calling in the soul debt, in order to keep Xykon from taking the Gate. Just my immediate thoughts.

Ooh, I had forgotten the soul debt for the moment. Interesting idea. I wonder if they might have to resort to using it to get V back on his/her feet just long enough to protect the gate.

[The Giant]

So does Nale have his sword or not?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Whistles innocently.]

[KillianHawkeye]

Where did those summoning circles come from?

They're just a visual effect of the summoning spells.

[B. Dandelion]

Nale appears to be digging his own grave by being all haughty towards Zz'dtri like that. Way to potentially alienate the last person in the group who might have residual loyalty towards you, right after we saw your father treating him kindly and curing his deafness. I can't see this backfiring in any way, no sir.

[Tircey]

I have a funny feeling we're going ot have ot watch Malack very carefully here. He's not happy about working with Nale, promised Durkon to not harm his companions and quite frankly could probably wpe the floor with both Nale and Zzz'dri if he got pushed to far. (Especially with Durkon's help)

Anyone else think that Nale's going ot push Malack to far and regret it?

[stsasser]

Two things:

2. If V *is* history's worst mass murderer, then Haerta must have never actually used Familiacide. Because even if she had also only used it once like V, I'm pretty sure her murder count from general "becoming an epic level necromancer" out takes dwarfs V's general murder count to date.


Maybe Haerta used it on a much smaller, less closely-related family?

[Waspinator]

Durkon probably still has whatever spells he was granted this morning. He probably will need to change deities to get more, though.

[Quild]

It's HELL... it's all Reality TV all the time... 1,000 Channels of Jersey Shore

Isn't it the same than regular TV?

[Holy_Knight]

Two things:

1. Wow, I thought Durkon would have to re-dedicate himself to an evil god or cause before he got his spells back! I guess in this world, only Paladins have to suck on insanely harsh code rules. :smallannoyed:
I was wondering about that, too. Is Vampire Durkon now a cleric of Nergal by default?

Pretty interesting possibilities raised by this comic, too. I wonder if the IFCC's maneuverings might be the ace in the hole that keeps the rest of the Order and Nale alive. Very curious to see what role V may play now, as well.

[Pokonic]

It's HELL... it's all Reality TV all the time... 1,000 Channels of Jersey Shore

Naw, it's mostly reruns of The Life And Times of Faerun High. Just a bunch of unlikeble, overpowered jerks ignoring the fact that there mear existance hurts everything around them in ten mile radius.




2. If V *is* history's worst mass murderer, then Haerta must have never actually used Familiacide. Because even if she had also only used it once like V, I'm pretty sure her murder count from general "becoming an epic level necromancer" out takes dwarfs V's general murder count to date.


On two: Alternitivly, Haerta's use of it killed just as many sentinent beings as V's usage did, but as it was (hypotheticly) used on, say, humans or orcs, there numbers have been able to recover over the last few thousand years or so. Dragons, on the other hand? A thousand year's is a typical lifespan, and there population is lowish enough already that the Black Dragons will most likely never recover from the Familiacide.

[Rakoa]

Maybe Haerta used it on a much smaller, less closely-related family?

Most likely. Considering that the Ancient Black Dragon was...ancient, she likely had a whole lot of ancestors to slaughter.

[warmachine]

The author has artistic license to play fast and loose with D&D rules but vampire Durkon casting evil spells this soon is going too far. I doubt the story even needs a spellcasting vampire Durkon. Team Nale already has a divine and an arcane caster and Durkon no longer with OotS is itself a devastating blow.

[Another_Poet]

we're not getting a scene where he chooses a new god to worship. Ergo, no first priest of Hel. Aww...:smallfrown:

I don't think Hel would be Evil? :smallconfused:

Unless some D&D sourcebook decided she is...

I would assume Loki if he was sticking with the Norse gods, I believe we have (appropriately) seen him shown as Thor's rival once or twice in OOTS.

Then again, he lost the accent, he might not have any connection to his home culture. Just go with Malack's deity.

[TRH]

Durkon probably still has whatever spells he was granted this morning. He probably will need to change deities to get more, though.

I doubt a priest of Thor gets spells that can summon fiends.

Edit: @Another Poet: Wasn't necessarily assuming Hel was evil, but she is a death god who doesn't have any priests, and that's been a theory round here for a while now. Personally, I thought it would humanize Durkula a bit to still have to deal with a ditzy Northern God when praying for spells, which would be nice.

[Mutant Sheep]

Ohhh, demons! And Durkula is too helpful.:smallsigh:

(Tarquin - Nale banter comically one sided, as usual.:smallamused:)

[Silverionmox]

Well, it's certainly convenient that Durkon kept the receipts of his spells so he could exchange them for more fashionable ones in the store.

[Chad30]

Most likely. Considering that the Ancient Black Dragon was...ancient, she likely had a whole lot of ancestors to slaughter.

decendants.

I don't really see Nale's insult being towards z, more than Q'arr. Z may still take it personally, though.

Durkon got a spell that summons an extra planar ally. Who are his allies now? fiends.

[The Pilgrim]

Who said the opposites theme is over? Spellcaster-only party against party with no spellcasters.

So, Tarquin is off to rendezvous with the rest of his pals? shoulder pad guy, ice mage, tigress-woman and stones-girl.

[Another_Poet]

I saw it as more Qarr twisting the knife in V's chest even more.

Ditto. Taunts and insults by imps should generally have [citation needed] at the end of them.


Nale appears to be digging his own grave by being all haughty towards Zz'dtri like that. Way to potentially alienate the last person in the group who might have residual loyalty towards you

I dunno, mocking an evil spellcaster's familiar? Would Zz'dtri even care? He probably treats Quarr about as well as Tarquin treats a butler. The last evil spellcaster I played named his undead eagle familiar "Mistake."

He outlived us all.

edit: Ah, Zz'dtri is frowning though. Hmm.

[Chad30]

Didn't you hear? Elan is a spellcaster (who doesn't count).

[Silva Stormrage]

The author has artistic license to play fast and loose with D&D rules but vampire Durkon casting evil spells this soon is going too far. I doubt the story even needs a spellcasting vampire Durkon. Team Nale already has a divine and an arcane caster and Durkon no longer with OotS is itself a devastating blow.

Actually no this is allowed in the rules. Durkon doesn't lose the spells he prepared in the morning and he already had planar ally prepared as mentioned earlier.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm

Planar ally doesn't require you to specify what creature you are summoning ahead of time. Durkon doesn't even NEED a god for it, he could just do a general plea for evil outsiders.

[Needle]

HEY! History isn't over yet mister!! :smallbiggrin:

So Qarr will be the one heading V to the party? That smells pretty bad :smallmad:

[TRH]

Durkon got a spell that summons an extra planar ally. Who are his allies now? fiends.

Good point, but that spell has a ten-minute casting time. There might have been a skip there, but I'm not sure I see it. Still, anything for a little false hope!

As for Z, I don't see him hanging Nale out to dry unless he really has to. He's shown a lot of dedication sticking with the guy for as long as he has, and being a member of the Linear Guild ensures that he'll get chances to off V on a regular basis, which seems to be his primary goal at the moment. Since I don't see V dying to the LG, Z probably won't get an opportunity to turn coat.

[Mutant Sheep]

Who said the opposites theme is over? Spellcaster-only party against party with no spellcasters.

So, Tarquin is off to rendezvous with the rest of his pals? shoulder pad guy, ice mage, tigress-woman and stones-girl.

Well, Nale did.:smallwink::smallbiggrin: (I feel Shaaaaame)

Likely. I think Qarr is going to have a good old "You need to fight the Evil, Vaarsuvius". Blackwing will question why, but Vaarsuvius will realize he needs to help. Yay speculating!

[hamishspence]

The author has artistic license to play fast and loose with D&D rules but vampire Durkon casting evil spells this soon is going too far.
The SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

seems to go with: Vampire clerics immediately gain new domains, replacing their old ones (and thus, logically, a new patron deity).


Clerics
Vampire clerics lose their ability to turn undead but gain the ability to rebuke undead. This ability does not affect the vampire’s controller or any other vampires that a master controls. A vampire cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.

[Lord Raziere]

Hm, I thought that Nale would be more attached to the Evil Opposites theme. No matter.


No look at the OOTS:

Roy
Belkar
Haley
Elan.

They are all some form of physical fighting type.

The Linear Guild are still evil opposites. its just that Nale doesn't realize that "four evil spell casters" count as evil opposites to "four good dashing fighters" :smallamused:

[Waspinator]

It's probably a Planar Ally or Summon Monster type spell that he was previously planning to use to summon a Celestial animal of some kind. You don't have to pick what you summon until you cast it, so now he picked some kind of fiend.

[Shred-Bot]

Infinite channels with nothing on..... :smallbiggrin:

And everything goes to commercial just as you flip to that channel.:smallfrown:

Also: helpful Durkon is ADORABLE. (And still has spells! I wonder if they are still Thor's or if Nergal just processes new employees quickly...)

[rewinn]

Whoops, left Kilkil out of Panel #4. Fixed now.
Dang! the Forum missed out on an orgy of speculation over how Kilkil can make himself invisible (I maintain that it should be an innate ability of his bureaucrat prestige class ;-)


Two things:

2. If V *is* history's worst mass murderer, then Haerta must have never actually used Familiacide....


Or perhaps Qarr is a liar. Could it be?:smallamused:

After all, is Blackwing *really* dimwitted? Bird-brained yes ... :smallbiggrin:


So... whatever Tarquin's up to, it is something that requires Kilkil? I wonder what that could be?

Perhaps Tarquin's the sort of lawful that requires the proper forms be filled out: treasure taken, XPs gained, maps drawn on graph paper 10 feet to the square. In other words: a gamer! :smallwink:

[Rorrik]

Is it wrong that I find Blackwing hilarious on such a sad topic?

Absolutely not. It was probably the best he could do to countermand the fiend logically. Any other contrary statement to what the fiend said would not be true. The absolute logic of the response is hilarious. That is my favorite kind of humor.

[Snails]

I doubt a priest of Thor gets spells that can summon fiends.

Edit: @Another Poet: Wasn't necessarily assuming Hel was evil, but she is a death god who doesn't have any priests, and that's been a theory round here for a while now. Personally, I thought it would humanize Durkula a bit to still have to deal with a ditzy Northern God when praying for spells, which would be nice.

It would be nice, but it would also be a huge drag, unless the peculiarities of Durkula are really so important. Instant conversion to a new deity does not quite make sense, but it is a lot more fun.

In most cases, a Summon Monster N spell is just a spell. The cleric only has to please his god by making an allowed choice when cast. Durkon intended to cast something nice, but Durkula ended up choosing otherwise.

[Another_Poet]

:nale: says...


"Just four spellcasters under my command..."

Four?

I count (as does Tarquin) "two vampire clerics and a [dark elf] wizard." Who is the fourth?

Unless Kilkil can cast, but he's staying back with Tarquin.

[Waspinator]

Actually, didn't Durkon say earlier his plan to guard the gate was to summon some celestials? That's probably the spell he used just now.

[Grey Watcher]

Oh, Blackwing. I think that might possibly be the WORST possible retort, given the circumstances.

[hamishspence]

You don't have to pick what you summon until you cast it, so now he picked some kind of fiend.While it hasn't been specified, the tail, roughly Medium size, and spikes, has lead to the speculation that Durkon's fiend is a hamatala or "barbed devil" from MM.

Z's fiend looks vaguely lobster-ish. Piscoloth from Fiend Folio (a book that's already been referenced once in-strip) seems to me the most likely candidate.

[stsasser]

No look at the OOTS:

Roy
Belkar
Haley
Elan.

They are all some form of physical fighting type.

The Linear Guild are still evil opposites. its just that Nale doesn't realize that "four evil spell casters" count as evil opposites to "four good dashing fighters" :smallamused:

...hrmmm...

[Chad30]

And everything goes to commercial just as you flip to that channel.:smallfrown:

Also: helpful Durkon is ADORABLE. (And still has spells! I wonder if they are still Thor's or if Nergal just processes new employees quickly...)

Yeah, that's how you do it. Turn on a channel, and see something interesting for a second, then it goes to commercial for however long you stay on the channel.

[The Giant]

The author has artistic license to play fast and loose with D&D rules but vampire Durkon casting evil spells this soon is going too far.

You know, you're right. I have gone too far this time. I'll stop making new strips now. Everyone, go home. The comic is over. My bad, I went too far.

:smallannoyed:

Tell you what, you read the vampire template entry, particularly the part where it explicitly says that vampire clerics can still cast spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) just with different domain access, and you tell me where it says anything about gods or temporary loss of access there. It doesn't. Vampire clerics do not need to worship a god to cast spells, because NO cleric needs a god to cast spells. The rules specifically allow for "non-theistic" clerics, and explains exactly what the effects of turning into a vampire has on a cleric: Rebuke instead of Turn, different domains. Period.

The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.

[TRH]

Oh, Blackwing. I think that might possibly be the WORST possible retort, given the circumstances.

I know, Blackwing's social skills are almost as bad as V's own, am I right?

[Another_Poet]

Edit: @Another Poet: Wasn't necessarily assuming Hel was evil, but she is a death god who doesn't have any priests, and that's been a theory round here for a while now. Personally, I thought it would humanize Durkula a bit to still have to deal with a ditzy Northern God when praying for spells, which would be nice.

Fair 'nuff :smallsmile:

[Morty]

Quarr hasn't exactly had a lot of luck dealing with Blackwing. Maybe he'll get outsmarted by the bird super-advanced flying stealth dinosaur again.

[B. Dandelion]

I dunno, mocking an evil spellcaster's familiar? Would Zz'dtri even care? He probably treats Quarr about as well as Tarquin treats a butler. The last evil spellcaster I played named his undead eagle familiar "Mistake."

Under the circumstances, is it wise to take the risk either way?

Granted, Zz'dtri might not care. The entire purpose of the interaction may have been just to play up Nale's feelings for Sabine plus the Description Cut gag. But it does seem pointlessly antagonistic.


:nale: says...



Four?

I count (as does Tarquin) "two vampire clerics and a [dark elf] wizard." Who is the fourth?

I guess himself?

[Risiez]

When Nale said "Four spellcasters" I was like: "Oh crap, maybe Kilkil's actually some kind of crazy powerful spellcaster and we didn't know it."

And then I realized "Oh wait, he's counting his own limpdick, multiclassed enchantment-based sorcerer powers."

[Grey Watcher]

I wonder just how many Channels Sabine has to flick through?

666 seems an appropriate number.

[The Pilgrim]

The Linear Guild are still evil opposites. its just that Nale doesn't realize that "four evil spell casters" count as evil opposites to "four good three good and one evil dashing fighters" :smallamused:

Corrected that for you.

[Shred-Bot]

Nale appears to be digging his own grave by being all haughty towards Zz'dtri like that. Way to potentially alienate the last person in the group who might have residual loyalty towards you, right after we saw your father treating him kindly and curing his deafness. I can't see this backfiring in any way, no sir.

PLUS Tarquin was probably sucking up to him pretty aggressively back when he was sending fruit baskets to the Drow.

It's hard to tell what Z is really thinking, though, given the lack of speech bubbles. Ah well.

[137beth]

So Nale's assessment of the fiend's effectiveness was completely backwards...
:smallsmile:

[NZNinja]

1. Wow, I thought Durkon would have to re-dedicate himself to an evil god or cause before he got his spells back! I guess in this world, only Paladins have to suck on insanely harsh code rules. :smallannoyed:

Perhaps Durkon can't dedicate himself to a new god while he is a mind slave of Malack - how can someone without free will choose a new god? As far as I can tell, the implications of changing deity in D&D is entirely campaign dependent - so it's all up to The Giant, I guess.

I do have a sneaking suspicion that Tarquin is well aware that Xykon is on his way, and he and Kilkil will be waiting for his arrival. Once the LG has weakened or defeated the OotS, Tarquin will sweep in with Team Evil for the double-cross to take the gate, and Malack will attack Nale as he is no longer required for "business". I could see this back-firing on Malack though, especially if Sabine returns mid-fight, or the near-defeated Order trips a self-destruct mechanism...
As a bonus though, if Malack is killed, Durkon should become free-willed again; although there have been plenty of indications that Malack would free Durkon willingly - eventually, at least.

[Snails]

It is quite likely Haerta never cast the spell.

It makes for an excellent threat, but if actually employed every surviving powerful person in the universe will work overtime to snuff you. If I am, say, Tarquin running a perfectly respectable tyranny, the risk that I might be suddenly dead because of a distant relationship to someone on the other side of the globe is frightening. Yes, Tarquin would be happy to help a random Arch-Paladin hunt down Haerta -- he would have no other choice.

[Another_Poet]

When Nale said "Four spellcasters" I was like: "Oh crap, maybe Kilkil's actually some kind of crazy powerful spellcaster and we didn't know it."

And then I realized "Oh wait, he's counting his own limpdick, multiclassed enchantment-based sorcerer powers."

You have made my day.

[baerdith]

Wait, how could Durkula summon a fiend?? And what exactly was that? A Xill? That's a 6 level summon.....

[Silverionmox]

Who said the opposites theme is over? Spellcaster-only party against party with no spellcasters.

And as we all know, Elan doesn't count :smallbiggrin:

IMO Quarr is going to taunt V into smoking Z - which will succeed, finally, if necessary with a little help from his friends (downstairs).

That leaves Malack (with Durkon) and Nale. We all know what's going to happen when you leave these two alone in a room.

When Malack returns without Nale, it will likely strain a long-standing alliance, with the rest of the old party right there to pick sides and settle outstanding debts... and potentially turn their three empires against each other.

Unnecessary conflict all over, the gentlemen downstairs have truly made a good investment.

[Another_Poet]

Perhaps Durkon can't dedicate himself to a new god while he is a mind slave of Malack - how can someone without free will choose a new god?

I suspect evil gods will accept non-consenting recruits who are forced to make the pact by their mind-controlling overlords. Like a press gang, but more transparent.

In any case Rich has made pretty clear (as do the rules) that Durkula did not need to choose a new deity yet.

[stsasser]

It is quite likely Haerta never cast the spell.

It makes for an excellent threat, but if actually employed every surviving powerful person in the universe will work overtime to snuff you. If I am, say, Tarquin running a perfectly respectable tyranny, the risk that I might be suddenly dead because of a distant relationship to someone on the other side of the globe is frightening. Yes, Tarquin would be happy to help a random Arch-Paladin hunt down Haerta -- he would have no other choice.

Well, Haerta is dead, so maybe she used Familiacide and they did snuff her.

[baerdith]

It's HELL... it's all Reality TV all the time... 1,000 Channels of Jersey Shore

Excuse while I go cry in the corner! I will have nightmares forever....

[hamishspence]

Wait, how could Durkula summon a fiend?? And what exactly was that? A Xill? That's a 6 level summon.....

I thought it was a piscoloth:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50107.jpg

the one with the pincers.

EDIT:

Durkon's looks like a hamatala
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG51.jpg

spiky grey-green one with tail, on far left.

[NZNinja]

I suspect evil gods will accept non-consenting recruits who are forced to make the pact by their mind-controlling overlords. Like a press gang, but more transparent.

In any case Rich has made pretty clear (as do the rules) that Durkula did not need to choose a new deity yet.


:smallannoyed:

Tell you what, you read the vampire template entry, particularly the part where it explicitly says that vampire clerics can still cast spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) just with different domain access, and you tell me where it says anything about gods or temporary loss of access there. It doesn't. Vampire clerics do not need to worship a god to cast spells, because NO cleric needs a god to cast spells. The rules specifically allow for "non-theistic" clerics, and explains exactly what the effects of turning into a vampire has on a cleric: Rebuke instead of Turn, different domains. Period..


I just saw The Giant's post on the topic - getting distracted mid-post FTL - although, as I said:


As far as I can tell, the implications of changing deity in D&D is entirely campaign dependent - so it's all up to The Giant, I guess.

[Vinsfeld]

You know, you're right. I have gone too far this time. I'll stop making new strips now. Everyone, go home. The comic is over. My bad, I went too far.

HA! Epic burn. :smallamused:

I like you even more, Giant.

[VanaGalen]

:nale: says...



Four?

I count (as does Tarquin) "two vampire clerics and a [dark elf] wizard." Who is the fourth?

Unless Kilkil can cast, but he's staying back with Tarquin.

Yeah, I'm also puzzled. Either:
- Nale is so dumb he can't count to 3
- he includes himself in that number (he has some sorcerer levels, but it's a stretch imo)
- he might be speaking of Quarr (Nale doesn't know what happened to him and Quarr isn't really a caster)
- he's going to pull Leeky, Pompey or Hilgya out of his sleeve

[Stormlock]

It is quite likely Haerta never cast the spell.

It makes for an excellent threat, but if actually employed every surviving powerful person in the universe will work overtime to snuff you. If I am, say, Tarquin running a perfectly respectable tyranny, the risk that I might be suddenly dead because of a distant relationship to someone on the other side of the globe is frightening. Yes, Tarquin would be happy to help a random Arch-Paladin hunt down Haerta -- he would have no other choice.

The spell as described never made sense anyways. If you cast that spell on a human on earth it would wipe out all human life on the planet (possibly all life period, including plants, and almost certainly all mammals at the very least.) Unless the OOTSverse is like 300 years old.

[baerdith]

Those two summoned monsters look like a barbed devil, and a piscoloth (a lobsterlike yugoloth).

If that is a Barbed devil, that puts Durkula at level 17.....

[StreamOfTheSky]

If Haerta did use the spell, I think it'd be funny if it was what killed her due to unknown familial link - 6 degrees of separation and all that. Still, I'd rather that she never used it, I don't see how she could possibly be so unknown if she had, unless she wiped out nearly all of civilization...

It's interesting, Malack hates Nale and now Tarquin is not only expecting him to work under him, but won't be personally there. Thog and now Sabine are both gone, only the repugnant little bastard is left here of the original linear guild. *Crosses fingers* maybe just maybe this will be where he finally dies! I've wanted to see nale die and cease wasting page space for so long now! Problem was, he's usually around awesome characters you don't want to see die (like Thog or Tarquin), but now he can die...maybe even take that lame one-off Dridz't spoof with him to the grave (now I'm really getting my hopes up!).

I like Malack and don't want him to (re-)die, but...I figure here Nale can die by his hand, so it's all cool.

[hamishspence]

If that is a Barbed devil, that puts Durkula at level 17.....

Planar Ally works on creatures of up to 12 HD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAlly.htm

Barbed devils have 12 HD.

[Heksefatter]

This is extremely dark. But I lolled through it anyway. :smallredface:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, I'm also puzzled. Either:
- Nale is so dumb he can't count to 3
- he includes himself in that number (he has some sorcerer levels, but it's a stretch imo)
- he might be speaking of Quarr (Nale doesn't know what happened to him and Quarr isn't really a caster)
- he's going to pull Leeky, Pompey or Hilgya out of his sleeve

He's clearly counting himself as a caster. The stupidity and misplaced confidence of doing so fits perfectly with his outlook.

[Another_Poet]

The spell as described never made sense anyways. If you cast that spell on a human on earth it would wipe out all human life on the planet (possibly all life period, including plants, and almost certainly all mammals at the very least.)

I assume it works up to some fraction of ancestry, i.e. back a certain number of generations. If you are 1/16th x, for example, or 1/64th.

To phrase it another way, it extends out to a certain level of cousins.

[Jay R]

If V *is* history's worst mass murderer, ...

Don't confuse trash-talk with documented fact.



The Linear Guild are still evil opposites. its just that Nale doesn't realize that "four evil three evil and one good but dominated spell casters" count as evil opposites to "four good three good and one evil but pretending dashing fighters" Corrected that for you.
Corrected that for you.

[The Second]

666 seems an appropriate number.

Channel 1 through 665, all infomercials, all the time! Channel 666, Hell's Idol marathon, every day, dawn to dusk.

Also, silly Nale, believing you can actually control Malack. I would not be surprised if Malack 'accidentally' targeted Nale with a few area effect spells.

Malack: "Oops, I made the radius just a smidge too large on that last one... My bad."

[Tsriel]

You know, you're right. I have gone too far this time. I'll stop making new strips now. Everyone, go home. The comic is over. My bad, I went too far.

:smallannoyed:

Tell you what, you read the vampire template entry, particularly the part where it explicitly says that vampire clerics can still cast spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) just with different domain access, and you tell me where it says anything about gods or temporary loss of access there. It doesn't. Vampire clerics do not need to worship a god to cast spells, because NO cleric needs a god to cast spells. The rules specifically allow for "non-theistic" clerics, and explains exactly what the effects of turning into a vampire has on a cleric: Rebuke instead of Turn, different domains. Period.

The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.

That was a Flamestrike of Truthiness. :smalleek:

[Shadowknight12]

Oh, Blackwing. Gotta love how much heart you put into it. :smallsmile:

I really, really like that V's sobbing. I am genuinely glad that after Soon's speech to Miko, we're seeing the beginnings of some actual redemption and character growth for V. She has done a horrifyingly evil thing, but there is still hope for her, and I genuinely hope she finds redemption by the end.

[Shred-Bot]

Yeah, I'm also puzzled. Either:
- Nale is so dumb he can't count to 3
- he includes himself in that number (he has some sorcerer levels, but it's a stretch imo)
- he might be speaking of Quarr (Nale doesn't know what happened to him and Quarr isn't really a caster)
- he's going to pull Leeky, Pompey or Hilgya out of his sleeve

I was going to suggest that he literally pulls a Reduce Person-ed Leeky (that would make him Tiny, after all) out from his sleeve...

...But I do believe he's going sleeveless in the desert heat. You can see his armpits!

[Nephrahim]

I assume it works up to some fraction of ancestry, i.e. back a certain number of generations. If you are 1/16th x, for example, or 1/64th.

To phrase it another way, it extends out to a certain level of cousins.

It's possible that the D&D world isn't that old and everyone is not actually related to everyone else.

The gods made the world, after all, and put all the various races on it. I don't think they started with cell and let evolution take it's coarse from there.

[Psyren]

Two things:

1. Wow, I thought Durkon would have to re-dedicate himself to an evil god or cause before he got his spells back! I guess in this world, only Paladins have to suck on insanely harsh code rules. :smallannoyed:

The rules for vampire clerics don't say anything about them needing atonement etc. In fact, if they did "fall" and have to atone, they wouldn't get Rebuke Undead at all, they'd simply lose TU. So the Giant is correct by RAW.



2. If V *is* history's worst mass murderer, then Haerta must have never actually used Familiacide.

I think it's more accurate to say that Qarr is just being an ass and trying to get under V's skin.

[Ezekiel]

Well....time for :nale: to screw up badly again (I hope).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Don't confuse trash-talk with documented fact.

If Haerta using the spell was known, it would have been a worthless insult due to being clearly and patently false. Especially to someone like V, who will contest the smallest minutiae.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well....time for :nale: to screw up badly again (I hope).

That was my first thought.

"4 casters vs. 3 noncasters and 1 "caster" ...wonder how Nale's going to manage to *** this one up?"

But I'm hoping for a Malack (and thus also Durkon) defection.

[Heksefatter]

You know, my opinion of Malack went up again with this one - this 'tiresome struggle' does feel like it needs its 'overdue conclusion', at times.

As for Qarr...I dunno what he's got in mind this time. It seems pretty obvious to me that the reason he skipped out earlier was to tell the IFCC that V killed the Draketooths; that was the only new and urgent information available at the time. My guess right now is that the fiends are gonna offer V some means of keeping the Gate safe, since Girard's defenses seem like they're running out. Or maybe he's just there to tell the elf that they're calling in the soul debt, in order to keep Xykon from taking the Gate. Just my immediate thoughts.

This is scarily plausible. I love it.

[Lord Ensifer]

Interesting that the red magic glow corresponds with the green creature, and vice versa. Almost certainly not significant, but interesting nonetheless.

[Amphiox]

Regarding Durkula's spellcasting:

From what we know of the OotS verse's version of Thor, I'd say it is even money whether or not he has even noticed that Durkon's been turned yet.

[Amphiox]

V cast Familicide and so far no one knows.

The same could have happened if Huerta ever cast it.

On the other hand, if the spell penetrates only to one degree of direct relation, then V casting it on a long-lived Black Dragon could easily have a much higher fatality count that Huerta casting it if her target had been, say, a human.

(If the spell has no limitation on how many degrees of relationship it can penetrate, then a single casting on earth would kill every single living thing on the planet. On the OotS verse it would all depend on how many of each species the Gods made in the beginning)

[baerdith]

I thought it was a piscoloth:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50107.jpg

the one with the pincers.

EDIT:

Durkon's looks like a hamatala
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG51.jpg

spiky grey-green one with tail, on far left.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG259b.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG259b.jpg) well, except for the extra arms...

[Quakes]

Always brightens my day when a new comic comes online, no matter if it's a little sad at the end.

Thanks, Giant!

[Stormlock]

Yeah, but the thing is, our most recent common ancestor is likely somewhere between 2000 and 4000 years old- for a population of billions covering the entire earth. A smaller population would have a more recent common ancestor. So we're not talking 'evolved from cells' here, we're talking 'plopped down with an entire civilization'. Which is possible (hell, maybe the gods made the world 200 years ago and everyone 'older' than that just has fake memories) but kinda weird, and even then, the chances you'd fry yourself with the spell if you cast it on anyone from the same continent are pretty frigging high.

I like to just chalk it up as 'the spell works in mysterious, convenient ways' and leave it at that. Though an arbitrary number of generations back as the limit would work too, nothing of the sort was ever mentioned. My interpretation of the spell when it was first cast had been that it stops at dead relatives (So if your parents are dead your cousins are unaffected, for example) but it was evidently much farther reaching than that.

[hamishspence]

well, except for the extra arms...The Xill has no tail, and is different colour.

[Lord Ensifer]

As for speculation, I'd say it's in everyone's interest to get V back into the fray - V wants to help out the party, and Qarr wants the pointless chaos to continue. So Qarr will be just the thing to get V out of his mopey slump and into combat.

[baerdith]

Planar Ally works on creatures of up to 12 HD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAlly.htm

Barbed devils have 12 HD.


oops, I was going by Summon Monster......

[hamishspence]

I like to just chalk it up as 'the spell works in mysterious, convenient ways' and leave it at that. Though an arbitrary number of generations back as the limit would work too, nothing of the sort was ever mentioned. My interpretation of the spell when it was first cast had been that it stops at dead relatives (So if your parents are dead your cousins are unaffected, for example) but it was evidently much farther reaching than that.
There's a detailed explanation by The Giant of how it works, here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12856280&postcount=1034

[Analytica]

As for Haerta casting Familicide...

... I got the impression all three soul splices were from other Prime Material Worlds anyway. I.e. Haerta may well have killed off her homeworld, and herself died in the process. She is then the worst mass-murderer in the history of that world, but not in the history of the OOtS homeworld.

[Amphiox]

Wild mass guess:

Quarr is going to tempt V with another round of soul-splicing, to get the power needed to save hir friends.

[Jiggs]

What I find interesting is that we (again) get to see Tarquins soft and therefore weak spot. He talks about "your bothers pawns" still picturing him to be the leader of the Order. Even there is a debatable power in Elan being a bard.
As a storyteller in this Comic which (also) obeys the laws of Comedy he therefore has a certain power to "shape things" he is not the genius tactical mind Tarquins believes he is.
Also the mentioning of the 'Father of the year'-award in the last strip strengthens my opinion that if anything, his downfall will come from such a "mistake" in judgement rather than from his opponents, the Order or Team Evil.

[Porthos]

For the people comparing Haerta and V's bodycount, where was it written that Haerta was from OotSWorld? :smallamused:

For all we know, and in fact I presume this is the case, Haerta was on another prime matierial plane doing all of her wickedness.

[Komatik]

Hey, I just realized - since Durkon can cast spells already, and obviously ones that a Lawful Good priest of Thor wouldn't be able to - we're not getting a scene where he chooses a new god to worship. Ergo, no first priest of Hel. Aww...:smallfrown:

The simple explanation here is that he still has his spell slots filled - invested divine energy and all that jazz. Except he's now a bit, uh, volitionally challenged. I'd imagine he can't prepare any new spells unless Thor is fine with Durkon fawning over Malack, which seems like a dubious proposition at best.

[Siosilvar]

The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.

The closest-to-relevant rules pedantry is probably "clerics need an hour to prepare spells" and Durkon had already expended most of his slots, but hey, artistic license. Who's to say a new vampire cleric doesn't come with full spell slots?

Well, you, of course.

[Zweisteine]

So does Nale have his sword or not?
I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Whistles innocently.]

I'm sure I'm not the first to predict this, but I'd bet Nale won't notice this until he tries to draw it...


And another thought: Would I be correct to assume one can not gain XP by using a soul splice's abilities? Otherwise, V should be epic by now, what with all those dragons s/he killed.

[Amphiox]

It is quite likely Haerta never cast the spell.

It makes for an excellent threat, but if actually employed every surviving powerful person in the universe will work overtime to snuff you. If I am, say, Tarquin running a perfectly respectable tyranny, the risk that I might be suddenly dead because of a distant relationship to someone on the other side of the globe is frightening. Yes, Tarquin would be happy to help a random Arch-Paladin hunt down Haerta -- he would have no other choice.

Even if you just threatened it, every powerful person in the universe who heard about it and believed it would work overtime to snuff you....

[StreamOfTheSky]

V cast Familicide and so far no one knows.

The same could have happened if Huerta ever cast it.

It's also only been a few weeks since V cast it. And the effects have been noticed, at least in the current area. They just haven't traced the source yet.

[Jiggs]

Wild mass guess:

Quarr is going to tempt V with another round of soul-splicing, to get the power needed to save hir friends.

Doubtful. V has painfully larned his/her lesson in the matter and The Fiends stated, that they have more than enough time for their purpose. Neither them, nor V would want another go.

[Shadowknight12]

The closest-to-relevant rules pedantry is probably "clerics need an hour to prepare spells" and Durkon had already expended most of his slots, but hey, artistic license. Who's to say a new vampire cleric doesn't come with full spell slots?

Well, you, of course.

Durkon specified that he still had Planar Ally prepared before he was vampirised.

[Seer_of_Heart]

:smallfrown: V come back no :(

[Another_Poet]

There's a detailed explanation by The Giant of how it works, here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12856280&postcount=1034

<reads>

:smalleek:

Rich, that's.... Jeezus, man!

[luc258]

1.What are the fiends they summoned?

2. Who else hopes the showdown of this arc involves the IFCC?

[StreamOfTheSky]

The rules for vampire clerics don't say anything about them needing atonement etc. In fact, if they did "fall" and have to atone, they wouldn't get Rebuke Undead at all, they'd simply lose TU. So the Giant is correct by RAW.

Wouldn't he at least lose the spells Thor granted him and require new spell preparation to gain his spells again?

[VanaGalen]

I was going to suggest that he literally pulls a Reduce Person-ed Leeky (that would make him Tiny, after all) out from his sleeve...

...But I do believe he's going sleeveless in the desert heat. You can see his armpits!

Ahhh, my spot check sucks :smallannoyed: So no Leeky today...

Nale counting himself as caster certainly looks like his style, but for me in stupidity it's close to not being able to count properly. The only spells Nale ever cast as far as I remember was Expeditious Retreat and that Charm Person on Belkar.

[baerdith]

The Xill has no tail, and is different colour.

cool, didn't see the tail, and the armor is greenish... Giant sometimes fudges with colors.

[Another_Poet]

Would I be correct to assume one can not gain XP by using a soul splice's abilities? Otherwise, V should be epic by now, what with all those dragons s/he killed.

That makes sense.

It's also really unfortunate for the IFCC. The faster their client casters level, the more firepower they have on hand when those clients' turn to serve comes due.

They should probably fix that in Splice v1.1.

[gerryq]

What I find interesting is that we (again) get to see Tarquins soft and therefore weak spot. He talks about "your bothers pawns" still picturing him to be the leader of the Order. Even there is a debatable power in Elan being a bard.
As a storyteller in this Comic which (also) obeys the laws of Comedy he therefore has a certain power to "shape things" he is not the genius tactical mind Tarquins believes he is.
Also the mentioning of the 'Father of the year'-award in the last strip strengthens my opinion that if anything, his downfall will come from such a "mistake" in judgement rather than from his opponents, the Order or Team Evil.

Also "And I can see far" may be true, but is just a little too smug.

Tarquin is juggling a lot of balls and is feeling very pleased with himself. It's at times like that that the balls often start tumbling down.

[Porthos]

2) Quarr was maybe sent by the fiends to talk V to go back to the order, so that the Linear Guild wouldn't win right away...?

This is exactly what I am thinking. When Qarr left, he mentioned that he was furthering 'his own agenda' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html) (paraphrased).

Well having V mope about doing nothing doesn't really further his (read the IFCC's) agenda, now does it?

But if Qarr plays Evil Jiminy Cricket and lights a fire under V's butt? Well, that might very well get him back into the game. Which in turn, furthers the IFCC's short term goal of destructive unnecessary conflict (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html).

[Leirus]

The spell as described never made sense anyways. If you cast that spell on a human on earth it would wipe out all human life on the planet (possibly all life period, including plants, and almost certainly all mammals at the very least.) Unless the OOTSverse is like 300 years old.

What? Familicide goes down the family tree, and up until the first dead individual. It was so destructive when Varsuviuus used it only because he did so on an ancient dragon, who had likely been alive for thousands of years and had many eggs. Had Familicide not stopped when founding a dead antecessor, it would have killed all the Black Dragons, not 1/4.

If you used it on an old king, for example, you would wipe the entire royal family and probably several noble clans, but that would be all.

[undead hero]

Two things:

1. Wow, I thought Durkon would have to re-dedicate himself to an evil god or cause before he got his spells back! I guess in this world, only Paladins have to suck on insanely harsh code rules. :smallannoyed:



Well then it looks like Rich is keeping things closer to D&D than previously thought.

Paladins have always had stricter guidelines than Clerics and really that never made sense to me but hey whatever *shrug*

[pearl jam]

What? Familicide goes down the family tree, and up until the first dead individual. It was so destructive when Varsuviuus used it only because he did so on an ancient dragon, who had likely been alive for thousands of years and had many eggs. Had Familicide not stopped when founding a dead antecessor, it would have killed all the Black Dragons, not 1/4.

If you used it on an old king, for example, you would wipe the entire royal family and probably several noble clans, but that would be all.

If a dead relative stopped the chain, then the brother of your target wouldn't even die if their parents were already dead, because two brothers are only related through their parents. It seems like this is too obvious a pitfall for what the spell is hoping to accomplish for breaking the chain to be as simple as encountering a dead link.... :smallconfused:

[Porthos]

The spell as described never made sense anyways. If you cast that spell on a human on earth it would wipe out all human life on the planet (possibly all life period, including plants, and almost certainly all mammals at the very least.) Unless the OOTSverse is like 300 years old.

But the spell wasn't cast on Earth. And as Rich pointed out when he explained how Familicide worked, when OotSWorld was created, a bunch of unrelated people/critters were created out of whole cloth.

But, yes, on the whole Familicide was rather nuts.

Which, come to think of it, was the entire point of the fallout of said spell.

[Mutant Sheep]

I'm sure I'm not the first to predict this, but I'd bet Nale won't notice this until he tries to draw it...


And another thought: Would I be correct to assume one can not gain XP by using a soul splice's abilities? Otherwise, V should be epic by now, what with all those dragons s/he killed.

The Giant did whistle.:smallamused:

Yup. Not gaining any XP while spliced. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html). (You could, but your ECL jumps beyond any reachable level, so unless you take on pantheons, nothing is a good enough CR)

Familicide doesn't stop if it reaches an already dead person. If it did, then the Draketooths would have been perfectly fine, since Girard was already dead.

Edit:
That makes sense.

It's also really unfortunate for the IFCC. The faster their client casters level, the more firepower they have on hand when those clients' turn to serve comes due.

They should probably fix that in Splice v1.1.They could try to find a way around it, and maybe actually have, but the ECL jump seems a pretty hard to leap stumbling block.

[Another_Poet]

Also "And I can see far" may be true, but is just a little too smug.

I was actually wondering if that line is a hint at something we don't yet know, or a reference to some item he has that I forgot about.

[Shred-Bot]

Ahhh, my spot check sucks :smallannoyed: So no Leeky today...

Nale counting himself as caster certainly looks like his style, but for me in stupidity it's close to not being able to count properly. The only spells Nale ever cast as far as I remember was Expeditious Retreat and that Charm Person on Belkar.

And a good thing that there's no Leeky... if it wasn't for Durkon he might have taken down everyone back in Cliffport.

[The_Tentacle]

And another thought: Would I be correct to assume one can not gain XP by using a soul splice's abilities? Otherwise, V should be epic by now, what with all those dragons s/he killed.

Yeah, the IFCC specifically said that you won't gain XP because your effective level will be so high (too lazy to link to strip). But it would be possible. Judging by how easily V defeated the ancient black, s/he was much higher effective level and did not gain XP from that. Maybe s/he would have gotten XP from Xykon, but we'll never know.

[Another_Poet]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html. You could, but your ECL jumps beyond any reachable level.

That's some excellent rules knowledge (on the IFCC's part and ultimately Rich's). That would not have occurred to me.

[Amphiox]

For the people comparing Haerta and V's bodycount, where was it written that Haerta was from OotSWorld? :smallamused:

For all we know, and in fact I presume this is the case, Haerta was on another prime matierial plane doing all of her wickedness.

Qarr said "in history" though, and history in a multiplanar universe doesn't have to be restricted to one world.

[Porthos]

Qarr said "in history" though, and history in a multiplanar universe doesn't have to be restricted to one world.

Yes, but Qarr wants to twist the dagger in V's back right now, yes? So what's a little poetic license between friends? :smallwink:

To put it another way: Caution Number One when dealing with fiends: Never take what they say exactly literally.

Which is, of course, followed closely by: Caution Number Two when dealing with fiends: Don't take what they say figurately at face value either. :smalltongue:

[Leirus]

If a dead relative stopped the chain, then the brother of your target wouldn't even die if their parents were already dead, because two brothers are only related through their parents. It seems like this is too obvious a pitfall for what the spell is hoping to accomplish for breaking the chain to be as simple as encountering a dead link.... :smallconfused:

The Giant himself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12856280&postcount=1034):

"I really thought that last comic would end this debate, but it seems like there's still a lot of confusion. So here goes:

Step 1: Kill everyone with the original target's blood. This is a simple yes/no effect: Is a creature (the secondary target) related by blood to the original target at all, in any way? If yes, kill it. If no, move on. Number of generations or percentage of blood or direction doesn't matter.

Step 2: Kill everyone who shares blood with any of the people killed in Step 1. Think of it as killing everyone descended from (or siblings to) any and all still-living ancestors of each secondary target. So if Penelope had a grandfather on one side and a great-grandmother on the other side who were still alive, every person who could trace their blood back to either of those people would be dead, because Penelope's daughter carries both of their bloods. If a person can only trace their blood through (say) Penelope's already-dead great-great-great-grandfather, then they're safe. Thus cousins and second-cousins and the like are all dead, but more distant genetic relations are not. It is possible for some cousins to survive if all older generations were already dead, yes, but Vaarsuvius wasn't really likely to take the time to make that distinction while sobbing on a dungeon hallway floor."

[Amphiox]

But the spell wasn't cast on Earth. And as Rich pointed out when he explained how Familicide worked, when OotSWorld was created, a bunch of unrelated people/critters were created out of whole cloth.

But, yes, on the whole Familicide was rather nuts.

Which, come to think of it, was the entire point of the fallout of said spell.

If you make the assumption (which granted may not necessarily be true) that after several thousand years the average fertility of any individual Black Dragon evens out, then Familicide killing about 1/10th of all Black Dragons suggests that the Gods created about 10 original Black Dragons.

[Amphiox]

If a dead relative stopped the chain, then the brother of your target wouldn't even die if their parents were already dead, because two brothers are only related through their parents. It seems like this is too obvious a pitfall for what the spell is hoping to accomplish for breaking the chain to be as simple as encountering a dead link.... :smallconfused:

If I read the Giant's description of Familicide correctly, then a dead relative does not stop the chain in step 1, but it does in step 2.

[Amphiox]

Sure Nale, insulting your team members is surely the key to victory! Also, what on earth are Tarquin and Kilkil going to be doing in the meantime?

What Tarquin and Kilkil are going to be doing, in the narrative-structure sense, is making it just barely believable for the OTS not to get TPK'ed in the first round of the coming battle (if it gets to a battle, of course).

[Psyren]

Wouldn't he at least lose the spells Thor granted him and require new spell preparation to gain his spells again?

It doesn't say that is needed either. And he already had several copies of Planar Ally prepped - he simply directed his request, er, lower.

What's amusing is that, by RAW, deities only interact during the preparation process, i.e. when the spells are requested. There's nothing about them being able to blank the unused spell slots from your mind after being sent.

The only question now is - is he asking Nergal, or Hel? Or simply an ideal?

[delroland]

PISCOLOTH!!! :smallfurious:
SO... MUCH... HATE...
:furious::furious::furious:

[Leirus]

If I read the Giant's description of Familicide correctly, then a dead relative does not stop the chain in step 1, but it does in step 2.

Hmmm. If I understand it right, it would kill for example the parents and grandparents an so on going back, and all the descendants going down... and then on step two everyone related to them. That way it works (for me), and I am really lamenting I brought this up again.

[Shadowknight12]

PISCOLOTH!!! :smallfurious:
SO... MUCH... HATE...
:furious::furious::furious:

There's a story behind that, isn't it? :smallwink:

[DukeGod]

Perhaps Tarquin's the sort of lawful that requires the proper forms be filled out: treasure taken, XPs gained, maps drawn on graph paper 10 feet to the square. In other words: a gamer! :smallwink:

"So, Sabine was banished at X point, meaning from this point forward she doen't get XP anymore...Oh hey DM, can we consider animating all those dead guys as beating a challenge against vomiting from the scent? Cool, that's like 20 creatures with what 1/4 HD?"

[Porthos]

It doesn't say that is needed either. And he already had several copies of Planar Ally prepped - he simply directed his request, er, lower.

Technically if Durkon could have lost all of his spells by being an ex-Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) of Thor:


Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

However it could easily be handwaived away by saying Durkon rejected Thor when he arose and is currently a Generic Vampire Cleric and thus didn't lose any perpared spells (with them being 'transferred' to a seperate divine bank account as it were).

Is it a bit of a handwave? Perhaps. But that's easily within the realm of DM Fiat (i.e. making their game/story run smoothly).

[Sith_Happens]

Wouldn't he at least lose the spells Thor granted him and require new spell preparation to gain his spells again?

Nope, there's no take-backs on granted spells. Durkon's got exactly the ones he had when he turned, he just can't cast any of the ones with the [Good] descriptor due to being Evil now.

[Gift Jeraff]

People were saying Elan, with his single Mass Cure Light Wounds per day, could be the new healer, yet are confused when an 8th-12th level sorcerer calls himself a spellcaster.

...Yeah, the opposites theme is still going strong it seems.


Ditto. Taunts and insults by imps should generally have [citation needed] at the end of them.



I dunno, mocking an evil spellcaster's familiar? Would Zz'dtri even care? He probably treats Quarr about as well as Tarquin treats a butler. The last evil spellcaster I played named his undead eagle familiar "Mistake."

He outlived us all.

edit: Ah, Zz'dtri is frowning though. Hmm.
It's probably just a blank face, like Z usually has. Z even calls the fact that V hangs out with a familiar now odd (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html), so I doubt he cares much about Qarr.

[Carl]

Hmmm. If I understand it right, it would kill for example the parents and grandparents an so on going back, and all the descendants going down... and then on step two everyone related to them that is either directly connected and still alive, or is indirectly connected but for with a direct chain of living relatives exists that ends in a living direct connection.

This actually means that if Famlicide had been cast on a human it probably wouldn't be that nasty, we just don't live long enough for it to spread far. Probably why Hortea isn't so well remembered, it just isn't capable of that much devastation unless you hit something with the interbreeding tendencies and long lives of a dragon.

[Leirus]

This actually means that if Famlicide had been cast on a human it probably wouldn't be that nasty, we just don't live long enough for it to spread far. Probably why Hortea isn't so well remembered, it just isn't capable of that much devastation unless you hit something with the interbreeding tendencies and long lives of a dragon.

Yup, that is my take. Althought no doubt Haerta was happy to see it used on a dragon.

[Anarion]

Blackwing wins the award for most unhelpful help by a pet or familiar. Congratulations.

I see a certain odd genre blindness in Tarquin here. I wonder if he's setting Nale up to fail intentionally, or if his concern for his family and legacy is actually causing him to miss the setup where he has everything in hand and then it all goes around as soon as he relinquishes personal control.

[delroland]

There's a story behind that, isn't it? :smallwink:

Yeah, it involves my 2E 10th level necromancer and telefragging.

Because **** limb removal.

[FlawedParadigm]

It's possible that the D&D world isn't that old and everyone is not actually related to everyone else.

Well, there goes my idea that the entire Stickverse secretly took place in Arkansas.

[stsasser]

Well, there goes my idea that the entire Stickverse secretly took place in Arkansas.

That would explain the banjo.

[Chessgeek]

Oh please how powerful can fiends be if they're summoned with a poof? And they'll be lead by Nale of all people. The Order's fine. But what is the mighty Tarquin searching for? To be continued...

[Leirus]

Blackwing wins the award for most unhelpful help by a pet or familiar. Congratulations.

I see a certain odd genre blindness in Tarquin here. I wonder if he's setting Nale up to fail intentionally, or if his concern for his family and legacy is actually causing him to miss the setup where he has everything in hand and then it all goes around as soon as he relinquishes personal control.

Tarquin is certainly planning something. What did he do before leaving the Empire? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html). I have thinking on this, but the only think I can imagine is calling his pals. And it does not quite fit.

[Carl]

Yup, that is my take. Althought no doubt Haerta was happy to see it used on a dragon.

To put it in simle terms for people. lets assume draketooth himself was alive at the time and it was cast on him instead. It would still have taken out the Black Dragon's in the fashion it did, but if Draketooths parents where dead then, (unless the cousins have been getting in each others pants, not something I'd discount totally), his siblings and their children are safe.

Kind of ironic that said cousins possibility aside casting it on a random draketooth would have done V's task just as well, but caused much less collateral.

[gorocz]

Soo... Is it time for IFCC to cash in V's soul time debt? I actually thought that this will happen already in this strip, when I first read the comic title - Fiend Swap (Fiends as in IFCC). The fact that the comic ended with V and Qarr only supports this :-)

/**
(Also, I'm quite surprised that there's already 6 pages of comments and this hasn't been predicted yet)
*/
Edit: nevermind, I missed that it was mentioned already page one :smallsigh:

[TheYell]

Whoops, left Kilkil out of Panel #4. Fixed now.

QUICK get the url to the uncorrected webpage

it's gonna be a million-dollar collectible!

Just DON'T OPEN IT so it stays mint

[Draz74]

So... whatever Tarquin's up to, it is something that requires Kilkil? I wonder what that could be?
Hmmm, my epiplectic tree sense is now formulating wild theories that Tarquin knows that Team Evil is coming, and is off to try to forge a treaty with them ...


1) Durkon lost his accent?
Interesting. That, I did not expect.


2) Quarr was maybe sent by the fiends to talk V to go back to the order, so that the Linear Guild wouldn't win right away...?
This was my main thought after this strip too, except ... I don't think they're most concerned about the Linear Guild winning. No, it's more ominous than that. They want to ultimately take control of the Gate themselves. They need to have someone they can take magical of control of in the fight for the Gates, regardless of who they're hoping will win that fight.

So Qarr will be the one heading V to the party? That smells pretty bad :smallmad:
Exactly.


Two things:2. If V *is* history's worst mass murderer,
I highly doubt it. Haerta aside, there have been a LOT of bad dudes in the world's history. I mean, Gananron (Haerta's LE/Conjurer counterpart) led wars to conquer dozens of worlds. And the Snarl ostensibly devoured a whole planet.

The "worse mass murderer" is pure trash talk. I doubt Qarr even knows enough History to make it a meaningful factual statement.


decendants.
No, ABD actually said explicitly that she only had one descendant, and only until he fought V and got disintegrated. "Ancestors" was, in fact, the correct word. (As other people have been re-iterating in this thread, Familicide doesn't care about whether creatures are still living when it determines primary targets; only when it determines secondary targets.)


I don't really see Nale's insult being towards z, more than Q'arr. Z may still take it personally, though.
I think Nale and Z have a deeper relationship than one insult can undo, even if Z does in fact have a sentimental attachment to Qarr. After all, they've been together back since Nale's Western Continent days.


Oh, Blackwing. I think that might possibly be the WORST possible retort, given the circumstances.
Yeah. It may be funny, but this punch line certainly did nothing to raise my opinion of Blackwing's mental acuity.


You know, you're right. I have gone too far this time. I'll stop making new strips now. Everyone, go home. The comic is over. My bad, I went too far.

:smallannoyed:

Tell you what, you read the vampire template entry, particularly the part where it explicitly says that vampire clerics can still cast spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) just with different domain access, and you tell me where it says anything about gods or temporary loss of access there. It doesn't. Vampire clerics do not need to worship a god to cast spells, because NO cleric needs a god to cast spells. The rules specifically allow for "non-theistic" clerics, and explains exactly what the effects of turning into a vampire has on a cleric: Rebuke instead of Turn, different domains. Period.

The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.
Oh snap, I think someone awakened a sleeping Giant.



- he includes himself in that number (he has some sorcerer levels, but it's a stretch imo)
...

He's clearly counting himself as a caster. The stupidity and misplaced confidence of doing so fits perfectly with his outlook.
Exactly.

[Psyren]

Technically if Durkon could have lost all of his spells by being an ex-Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) of Thor:



However it could easily be handwaived away by saying Durkon rejected Thor when he arose and is currently a Generic Vampire Cleric and thus didn't lose any perpared spells (with them being 'transferred' to a seperate divine bank account as it were).

Is it a bit of a handwave? Perhaps. But that's easily within the realm of DM Fiat (i.e. making their game/story run smoothly).

Technically he never became an ex-Cleric. He didn't violate anything by simply dying, and by the time he switched allegiances, it was too late for Thor to do anything about it. (Assuming he even did switch allegiances. Dorkula is pretty clearly not the same entity as Durkon as we can see by the accent.)

In short, he died a cleric and came back a cleric. At no point was he ever not a cleric.

[Clistenes]

For the people comparing Haerta and V's bodycount, where was it written that Haerta was from OotSWorld? :smallamused:

For all we know, and in fact I presume this is the case, Haerta was on another prime matierial plane doing all of her wickedness.

Wasn't Haerta Xykon's old girlfriend from SoD? The one that worked for the same Evil Overlord than Xykon?

[Grey Watcher]

Wasn't Haerta Xykon's old girlfriend from SoD? The one that worked for the same Evil Overlord than Xykon?

I believe her name was Ydranna.

[Arcanist]

Aww... I saw the Imp pop in just to throw salt in V's wound and thought... Damn... I don't care how much a person has goof'd, that is just sadistic...

[Clistenes]

I believe her name was Ydranna.

I will have to check. The both of them look similar.

EDIT: You are right. They aren't the same character, and they don't even look similar, I just misremembered

[FlawedParadigm]

I believe her name was Ydranna.

I know better than this, but I wonder if the anagram of Ayn Rand was intentional. (No, I know it wasn't.)

But yes, that's her name.

[Another_Poet]

Tarquin is certainly planning something. What did he do before leaving the Empire? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0882.html). I have thinking on this, but the only think I can imagine is calling his pals. And it does not quite fit.

Or bringing his entire army to bear.

He is, after all, supreme dictator or whatevs.

edit: Also, possibly sent an alliance offer to Xykon.

[jere7my]

I thought it was a piscoloth:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50107.jpg

Yep, it's clearly a piscodaemon / piscoloth. It looks more like the 1st edition Monster Manual 2 illustration:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Piscodaemon.JPG

[Living Oxymoron]

Some thoughts:

1) Durkon lost his accent?

2) Quarr was maybe sent by the fiends to talk V to go back to the order, so that the Linear Guild wouldn't win right away...?

1) I think Durkon will not have his accent back until Malack free him.

"You will feel more like yourself once I release you from my thrall" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html)

2) Yeah, probably that.

[Alex Knight]

RE: "Worst mass murderer in history"

I can't help but feel you folks are overlooking a way that phrase might be intended.

Replace "mass murderer" with "Short order cook" and see how the implication changes.

Quarr isn't saying V is a horrible murderer, he's saying V is horrible at committing murder.

[MeanMrsMustard]

Durkula continues to be adorable.
Same with V.
And, surprisingly, Malack in the first panel.

[Knight.Anon]

Hmmm.

I wonder if Durkon's fiend will actually help out... or maybe try to kill Nale. Its going to throw a wrench into something for sure. Durkon is a vampire but it doesn't mean that doesn't hate the team he is on. He's the White Worm's involuntary slave but that only goes so far. Interesting that he has a red aura now. Evil Dwarfs are always underestimated.

The imp is going to tip the Linear Guilds hand I bet. He (It) wants there to be fighting and war its not on the Linear Guilds side either. I hope that the fiends don't cash the check on V's soul anytime soon.

[chorpler]

Qarr saying "his" in reference to Vaarsuvius is even funnier when you remember that he's called Vaarsuvius "her" before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html).

And hey, another strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html) where Qarr calls Vaarsuvius "her" (while Vaarsuvius is trying to invisibly escape from Xykon), and then this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0797.html) where he says "I'm not here to hurt your master. I'm here to keep an eye on him. Or her. Whatever." I'm thinking Qarr just spouts pronouns at random when it comes to Vaarsuvius...

[Tolvan]

So, ah, anyone else realize that Durkon is prophesied to return home posthumously? And he's now unDEAD? Or am I the first?

Look-I may not post much, but I needed to point this out.

[Mutant Sheep]

So, ah, anyone else realize that Durkon is prophesied to return home posthumously? And he's now unDEAD? Or am I the first?

Look-I may not post much, but I needed to point this out.

Has been previously mentioned.
!Prequel Spoiler!
He is also propheised to bring "Death and Destruction" when he does return home. (Why he was banished in the first place). Now, nergal is god of... death and destruction. Vampire Durkon might want a sponsor, and who better to ask for suggestions than dear old Malack?

[Water_Bear]

RE: "Worst mass murderer in history"

I can't help but feel you folks are overlooking a way that phrase might be intended.

Replace "mass murderer" with "Short order cook" and see how the implication changes.

Quarr isn't saying V is a horrible murderer, he's saying V is horrible at committing murder.

But V's actually a pretty solid mass murderer; 1/4 of all Black Dragons plus at least a few hundred people is quite a lot. Especially doing all the killing in under six seconds.

Personally I doubt V's body-count is even as big as Redcloak's yet, not to mention the Big X, but Qarr is allowed a little artistic license in his taunts. After all, what does a guilt-ridden person want to hear less than that they are worse than the very people their Evil acts were meant to punish.

[Mutant Sheep]

But V's actually a pretty solid mass murderer; 1/4 of all Black Dragons plus at least a few hundred people is quite a lot. Especially doing all the killing in under six seconds.

Personally I doubt V's body-count is even as big as Redcloak's yet, not to mention the Big X, but Qarr is allowed a little artistic license in his taunts. After all, what does a guilt-ridden person want to hear less than that they are worse than the very people their Evil acts were meant to punish.

Thats why he's a bad mass murderer. He isn't even gloating!:smallbiggrin:

[Water_Bear]

Thats why he's a bad mass murderer. He isn't even gloating!:smallbiggrin:

To be fair, Darth V did spend some time gloating to the reanimated Ancient Black Dragon's disembodied head before Disintegrating it.

Wow, did the comic get dark or what?

[JackRackham]

Whatever Qarr is doing right now, I think it will end up helping the Order (or, it's intended to). It's not really in the IFCC's stated interest to kick him (and the order) while he/she's (they're) down.

[Tolvan]

Has been previously mentioned.
!Prequel Spoiler!
He is also propheised to bring "Death and Destruction" when he does return home. (Why he was banished in the first place). Now, nergal is god of... death and destruction. Vampire Durkon might want a sponsor, and who better to ask for suggestions than dear old Malack?

Ah. I rarely frequent the forum, so... Anyway, yeah, I was kinda going on that too, but I was too lazy to give the extra evidence. Anyway, makes sense. I like it!

[Advance Strat..]

I wonder just how many Channels Sabine has to flick through?

666 Channels of course!


Edit: Rats, got beaten to that joke back on page 4.

[J's]

It is quite likely Haerta never cast the spell.

It makes for an excellent threat, but if actually employed every surviving powerful person in the universe will work overtime to snuff you. If I am, say, Tarquin running a perfectly respectable tyranny, the risk that I might be suddenly dead because of a distant relationship to someone on the other side of the globe is frightening. Yes, Tarquin would be happy to help a random Arch-Paladin hunt down Haerta -- he would have no other choice.

I remember a theory that she did cast it on her enemy, who turned out to be related to her :smallamused:

But it has no support other than being mildly amusing.

Were the souls spliced to V given any back story in a side book? I have only read start of darkness.

[jidasfire]

I suspect that there is a zero percent chance Tarquin is forging an alliance with Xykon. Even if Tarquin, being the embodiment of efficient and orderly Lawful Evil, knew anything about Xykon, the embodiment of obscenely, pointlessly cruel Chaotic Evil, which he doesn't, he very clearly stated that he refuses to work with loose cannons, which I think we can safely say Xykon is. Moreover, he has nothing but contempt for Xykon's brand of typical conquer/destroy the world supervillainy. So no, no alliance there, but possibly preparing for Xykon in some way. That's not out of the question.

As to the strip in general, I think it's safe to say we're finally in the endgame now. There's still probably a ways to go for everything to resolve, but the stage is set for everyone's final plans or moves to come to fruition. The Order has found some major secret room (maybe the Gate, but I doubt it), the Linear Guild is making its final offensive, Tarquin is about to enact some plan, and Qarr is about to push Vaarsuvius. For all the people who think Xykon is coming, well, that's a possibility too, but I honestly think he and his associates will get there too late, and everything will be over but the crying before he does. Frankly, all the plots currently going are quite enough without the arch-villain of the comic coming along and stealing the spotlight, so I hope we just have to deal with the villains already on hand instead of adding even more. Given what plots are already going, it promises to be quite a finale.

[Rakoa]

I suspect that there is a zero percent chance Tarquin is forging an alliance with Xykon. Even if Tarquin, being the embodiment of efficient and orderly Lawful Evil, knew anything about Xykon, the embodiment of obscenely, pointlessly cruel Chaotic Evil, which he doesn't, he very clearly stated that he refuses to work with loose cannons, which I think we can safely say Xykon is. Moreover, he has nothing but contempt for Xykon's brand of typical conquer/destroy the world supervillainy. So no, no alliance there, but possibly preparing for Xykon in some way. That's not out of the question.


I wouldn't say an alliance with Xykon would be completely out of the question, but certainly one which Tarquin is planning to honour would be. I suspect any alliance Tarquin makes with Xykon will be to pit him against his enemies or otherwise eventually betray him, rather than ever really working with him.

[Ir0npanda]

Can somebody please please please explain all this business in this forum thread (including a post by the Giant) about Nale's sword?

[TRH]

Can somebody please please please explain all this business in this forum thread (including a post by the Giant) about Nale's sword?

He dropped his sword when he set off a trap at the beginning of the last OOTS v LG fight, and Belkar's ambush prevented him from getting it back before the Guild withdrew. Wand of Enervation aside, he's weaponless right now.

[Rakoa]

Can somebody please please please explain all this business in this forum thread (including a post by the Giant) about Nale's sword?

I assume that in certain panels there was a continuity error in which Nale had his sword in some and not in others, and it has since been patched up. Only inference on my part.

[ReaderAt2046]

It's HELL... it's all Reality TV all the time... 1,000 Channels of Jersey Shore

Nah, that wouldn't be in the succubus quarters, that would be in the punishment circles.

Do you suppose she's flicking through all the views on the Prime Material trying to find the one covering Nale and Co?

[Leirus]

If Xykon comes, I do not know if Tarquin will survive this. Scoundrel had it right.

[ReaderAt2046]

You know, you're right. I have gone too far this time. I'll stop making new strips now. Everyone, go home. The comic is over. My bad, I went too far.

:smallannoyed:

Tell you what, you read the vampire template entry, particularly the part where it explicitly says that vampire clerics can still cast spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) just with different domain access, and you tell me where it says anything about gods or temporary loss of access there. It doesn't. Vampire clerics do not need to worship a god to cast spells, because NO cleric needs a god to cast spells. The rules specifically allow for "non-theistic" clerics, and explains exactly what the effects of turning into a vampire has on a cleric: Rebuke instead of Turn, different domains. Period.

The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.

Don't feel so sad, Giant. 99.9% or the people here love your strip, even if the .1% who make stupid comments are the most vocal.

[TheBST]

Well, let's hope that Qarr's dumb enough to:
tell V that Durkon has died while V was off sobbing. That might be just the thing to make V man/woman-up and get back in the game.

[thatSeniorGuy]

I tell you, I saw the comic title before I read the comic, and I was panicked into thinking that the IFCC were going to swoop in and claim V's soul. Relieved that it didn't happen, though of course it's still on the table.

Blackwing is hilarious.

[LordofNaught]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Whistles innocently.]

:smalleek: You're up to something Giant. I don't know what yet, but I know I heard the sound of a Chekov's Gun being loaded, and this one has an itchy finger on the trigger. I'm watching you...

[Aquatosic]

So, Durkula has dark cleric powers now, huh. Probably worshipping Nergal since that is his master's god

[tahu88810]

I'm predicting the imp dies.
The loss of a familiar generally coincides with severely weakening the caster through exp loss, so this will likely happen at a fairly critical moment- Zz'dtri loses several levels and, thus, spell levels, perhaps losing his summoned creature in the process.

Would it mean much in the long run? Not really, but it would mean that the Order would be up against several fairly weak casters (given the Vampire LA and the spells they've both used up already), instead of two moderately powerful casters and one relatively fresh and high level caster.

[Jay R]

Well, let's hope that Qarr's dumb enough to:
tell V that Durkon has died while V was off sobbing. That might be just the thing to make V man/woman-up and get back in the game.

...or collapse into another guilt-induced period of uselessness.

[J's]

Ah. I rarely frequent the forum, so... Anyway, yeah, I was kinda going on that too, but I was too lazy to give the extra evidence. Anyway, makes sense. I like it!

Back at Malack's introduction of his god I said that was how Durkon would bring death and destruction back to his homeland. (At least I think I said it, I might be here less than you) Signs point to it being technically right, but no where close to how I pictured it :deerinheadlights:

[Another_Poet]

<good reasons Tarquin wouldn't work with Xykon>

I don't think he'd honor an alliance; he might offer one however. One way or another, a pretty horrendous army of undead + goblins is coming to Tarquin's continent. He needs to find a way to turn that to his advantage.

That said, I agree that it's the wrong point in the arc for Xykon to arrive.

[multilis]

2. If V *is* history's worst mass murderer, then Haerta must have never actually used Familiacide. Because even if she had also only used it once like V, I'm pretty sure her murder count from general "becoming an epic level necromancer" out takes dwarfs V's general murder count to date.
... So confirmation it has never been used before helps make the versimilitude jive much more for me. :smallsmile:
It probably has been used, unless hero stopped villain at last available minute right after spell was researched. It is possible that the spell works better the higher level the caster is. (A villain would not research such a spell normally without using it fairly quickly)

It is possible that even Elan killed more with a single "self destruct" button press, there were lots of levels of dungeons that OOTS skipped in first arc of story.

It is more likely IMO that this is just an exaggeration meant to torment V.

[gorocz]

I don't think he'd honor an alliance; he might offer one however. One way or another, a pretty horrendous army of undead + goblins is coming to Tarquin's continent. He needs to find a way to turn that to his advantage.

That said, I agree that it's the wrong point in the arc for Xykon to arrive.

There's no army coming. They're travelling light. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) Redcloak, Xykon and TitS (Thing in the Shadows, Xykon's words, not mine) is all that's coming...

[IsmAsm]

Quick question: what happens to Planar Allies if their summoner dies?

[Risiez]

Can somebody please please please explain all this business in this forum thread (including a post by the Giant) about Nale's sword?

Also, use your inside voice.

[137beth]

To put it in simle terms for people. lets assume draketooth himself was alive at the time and it was cast on him instead. It would still have taken out the Black Dragon's in the fashion it did, but if Draketooths parents where dead then, (unless the cousins have been getting in each others pants, not something I'd discount totally), his siblings and their children are safe.

Kind of ironic that said cousins possibility aside casting it on a random draketooth would have done V's task just as well, but caused much less collateral.

This is wrong. Girard's siblings and cousins were his blood relatives, it doesn't matter whether his parents were alive.

[FlawedParadigm]

That would explain the banjo.

Yeah, before having experienced Arkansas, I always thought Deliverance was a fictional work. Now I understand it was a documentary.

[multilis]

"it's the wrong point in the arc for Xykon to arrive."

It could be the perfect time for Xykon to arrive.

1) Battle Royale, Mexican standoff, etc where battle gets complex because more than 2 groups fight each other.

2) Common for a weaker main hero to be forced to short term work with the #2 villain to stop the #1 villain from winning/destroying them both.

...

There could be up to 9 different sides and at some point we may have a battle that has many more than 3 sides at same time. (Eg. the Oracle was not home last time Xykon checked, his allies may represent a side)

[Starwaster]

Can we all just take note of the last panel.

"It's history's worst mass-murderer and HIS dim-witted bird."


Twelve Gods, this again? You do realize that every time Rich has to use a personal pronoun for Vaarsuvius that he pretty much rolls some dice to see if it's going to be he, she or it. Right?

[Mike Havran]

Well, let's hope that Qarr's dumb enough to:
tell V that Durkon has died while V was off sobbing. That might be just the thing to make V man/woman-up and get back in the game.

Qarr doesn't seem to know this so far.

But after this strip, I really hope Zz'dtri will kick Nale's and/or Qarr's ass at some point. He's about as powerful as Vaarsuvius - that means most powerful by far in the old Guild - and they deceive him and treat him like a tool without a second thought.

[multilis]

Twelve Gods, this again? You do realize that every time Rich has to use a personal pronoun for Vaarsuvius that he pretty much rolls some dice to see if it's going to be he, she or it. Right?
Clearly V. is a female. A male would man up and solve his problems, while a female like V just sits there weeping and want sympathy. ;P

[Amphiox]

Blackwing wins the award for most unhelpful help by a pet or familiar. Congratulations.

He's a crow. As birds go, he should be high in INT, low in WIS.


I see a certain odd genre blindness in Tarquin here. I wonder if he's setting Nale up to fail intentionally, or if his concern for his family and legacy is actually causing him to miss the setup where he has everything in hand and then it all goes around as soon as he relinquishes personal control.

What he's done is split his party!

Which is either a big mistake and evidence of Tarquin's weakness, whatever that might be, or part of a bigger plan....

[Fshy94]

I'm predicting the imp dies.
The loss of a familiar generally coincides with severely weakening the caster through exp loss, so this will likely happen at a fairly critical moment- Zz'dtri loses several levels and, thus, spell levels, perhaps losing his summoned creature in the process.

Would it mean much in the long run? Not really, but it would mean that the Order would be up against several fairly weak casters (given the Vampire LA and the spells they've both used up already), instead of two moderately powerful casters and one relatively fresh and high level caster.

I'm no expert on D&D, but I checked the SRD, and it seems to be 200 xp per caster level loss, assuming you fail your save. Now, giving Z the insanely generous 20 wizard levels, that seems to be 4000 exp. And from what I can look up, the difference between levels 14 and 15 is about 14k exp.

Unless Z *just* levelled up, we're not going to see even one level loss in that case, and we're really not going to see multiple.



Clearly V. is a female. A male would man up and solve his problems, while a female like V just sits there weeping and want sympathy. ;P

You win a prize for the highest ratio of trolling potential to effort expended in a comment I've seen in awhile. :P

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I like Z, he doesn't seem truly cruel, sadistic, or unlikeable; just an evil spellcaster.

Whatever happens, I hope he lives and has some sort of relatively happy ending.

Now, is that Vaarusvius calling Qarr a s.o.b. in the last panel?

If so, wow. I thought only middle-schoolers knew that insult. Kudos to the giant if that's what he meant.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

Sabine is practicing her sloth.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Wait, I thought she was in the Lust Department, not the Sloth Department. No intra-departmental competition, Sabie-girl, don't you know page 287496, paragraph 216, sentence 666 forbidding you from doing so?

And besides, you're already getting similar competition complaints from the department of the treachery.

[Kish]

I like Z, he doesn't seem truly cruel, sadistic, or unlikeable; just an evil spellcaster.
Who tried to send Vaarsuvius to the Demiplane of Extremely Painful Torture.

And not because of the Familicide.

[Paseo H]

Well, it's not like she could do much else to further the cause of the Linear Guild at the moment anyway. :smalltongue:

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Yeah, but, I mean, don't we all just want to condemn someone we don't like to an eternity of unfathomable suffering?

If I can sympathize with a humanity that condones the selling of baby Alligator heads at market, conducts mass slaughter of crocodilians, and has systematically tried to exterminate all reptiles, I can sympathize with basically anyone.

[Forikroder]

Well, let's hope that Qarr's dumb enough to:
tell V that Durkon has died while V was off sobbing. That might be just the thing to make V man/woman-up and get back in the game.

thats probably exactly what Quarr wants to happen, the IFCC want conflict, and having V involved in this fight makes the conflict much more "even death match" and much less "clean sweep"

[Fshy94]

{Scrubbed}

[DaggerPen]

Awesome strip, as always! And I too wonder about the sword thing - I presume he was inadvertently drawn with it initially?

Also, Sabine's pose can't be comfortable with her wing like that.

[Water_Bear]

Wait, I thought she was in the Lust Department, not the Sloth Department. No intra-departmental competition, Sabie-girl, don't you know page 287496, paragraph 216, sentence 666 forbidding you from doing so?

And besides, you're already getting similar competition complaints from the department of the treachery.

Luckily, as a Demon she gets to skimp out on the paperwork. Devils like Qarr are the only ones who have to sweat the rulebook.

[Skamandros]

Blackwing wins the award for most unhelpful help by a pet or familiar. Congratulations.

I see a certain odd genre blindness in Tarquin here. I wonder if he's setting Nale up to fail intentionally, or if his concern for his family and legacy is actually causing him to miss the setup where he has everything in hand and then it all goes around as soon as he relinquishes personal control.

He knows that no one is going to end up with control of gate four out of five.