New Tactical Situation

[Rorrik]

We've already discussed to death the chance of the Order's victory against the Linear Guild, but something just changed.

Tarquin is taking off and Nale is now left in charge, with the majority of his power in the form of Malack, who would sooner kill him, and Durkon, who is Malack's servant. Both of them have also used most of their better spells.

So, what chance does the order have now? Without V, probably little. But maybe V's disappearance works out for them. Because V was gone, Tarquin decided to leave things up to Nale. Now V rejoining the Order could well make his panicked fleeing to the Order's advantage (not counting the loss of Durkon that occured partially due to his absence).

So what are the Order's chances in this new tactical situation, does the playground think?

[Raineh Daze]

It looks like V would have to make a concentration check to remember what spells she has prepared, so I wouldn't count on help from that quarter.

[Rorrik]

Is that a thing? Having to make a concentration check to remember spells? I never knew that was a thing.

[Raineh Daze]

It's hyperbole, honestly. XD

[TRH]

What's not hyperbole is that V's distress would give her a serious circumstance penalty for will saves - and there's two vampires who would exact saving throws. If V showed up now (which still isn't happening short of IFCC possession), she'd be more of a liability than an asset.

[VanaGalen]

What's not hyperbole is that V's distress would give her a serious circumstance penalty for will saves - and there's two vampires who would exact saving throws. If V showed up now (which still isn't happening short of IFCC possession), she'd be more of a liability than an asset.

V's will saves has been pretty good before and it's possible that even with such penalty s/he is more reliable than the rest of the party.
I'm worried about hir hit points though, s/he seems to be badly hurt by the fall and the OotS has Elan on main healer duty atm :smallfrown:

[Sky_Schemer]

So what are the Order's chances in this new tactical situation, does the playground think?

On the surface it pretty much sucks. I think at this point it is up to V, the Order reaching the gate, or something external like Xykon's arrival to add a new element and shift the balance of the equation.

Which I hope happens soon because, really, like Malack I am growing weary of this "Kick the Order while they're down, then kick them again, and then again, and then again and again" story arc. It has ceased to be entertaining, and the number of unresolved plot points is growing at a rapid clip.

[The Pilgrim]

You fail to see the big picture. The Order, previously, had, like, a 10%, maybe 20% chance to win. Now they have one on a million... and that's a SURE thing.

Not only that, but Tarquin, the only guy genre savvy enough to figure out in what dire situation the Linear Guild is now, is about to leave.

[Rakoa]

You fail to see the big picture. The Order, previously, had, like, a 10%, maybe 20% chance to win. Now they have one on a million... and that's a SURE thing.

Not only that, but Tarquin, the only guy genre savvy enough to figure out in what dire situation the Linear Guild is now, is about to leave.

No no, you misunderstand. By his leaving, he tips the scales closer to even, thereby eliminating the Order's chances of victory.

[Leirus]

I do not think the Tactical Situation is done changing yet. Why would Quarr go looking for V?

[Rorrik]

You fail to see the big picture. The Order, previously, had, like, a 10%, maybe 20% chance to win. Now they have one on a million... and that's a SURE thing.

Not only that, but Tarquin, the only guy genre savvy enough to figure out in what dire situation the Linear Guild is now, is about to leave.

Haha! Very true, Tarquin would be smart enough to run when he is one in a million to lose. But his leaving makes it a little closer.

Now that you mention it, I do wonder why Quarr tracked down V. How would he know where to find him? Is the IFCC going to make a move? I would think they'd wait to have Sabine back in the picture. (I can't believe Sabine is flipping channels when she could be watching Nale and co.)

[Leirus]

Haha! Very true, Tarquin would be smart enough to run when he is one in a million to lose. But his leaving makes it a little closer.

Now that you mention it, I do wonder why Quarr tracked down V. How would he know where to find him? Is the IFCC going to make a move? I would think they'd wait to have Sabine back in the picture. (I can't believe Sabine is flipping channels when she could be watching Nale and co.)

I think Quarr is with V on behalf of the IFCC, and that the plot is going to race to the end of this arc. Cannot waittt...

[Snails]

I would point out that, as it is most likely Malack is only 11th or 12th level, V could smoke him with a single Disintegrate spell, and only slightly lucky dice.

Ditto Durkon, although V is not up on the latest news, that could be extra confusing for all...

[TRH]

I would point out that, as it is most likely Malack is only 11th or 12th level, V could smoke him with a single Disintegrate spell, and only slightly lucky dice.

Ditto Durkon, although V is not up on the latest news, that could be extra confusing for all...

Not sure why so many people want Malack to die so anti-climactically; he's not Kubota, he's got an actual personality! That said, we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves by calculating V's potential participation at all before figuring out what the IFCC has in mind; I really doubt it's anything as simple as just motivating V to get back in the thick of it.

[Shred-Bot]

You know... the spellcaster who "doesn't count" has greater dispel magic... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) so he could pop away both the summoned meat shields, Roy's sword is super effective against undead (and the vampire clerics are both running low on spells), Z found himself vulnerable to archery during the fight in Bleedingham... not saying this will be a cakewalk for the Order, but they definitely have a puncher's chance here.

[TRH]

You know... the spellcaster who "doesn't count" has greater dispel magic... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) so he could pop away both the summoned meat shields, Roy's sword is super effective against undead (and the vampire clerics are both running low on spells), Z found himself vulnerable to archery during the fight in Bleedingham... not saying this will be a cakewalk for the Order, but they definitely have a puncher's chance here.

They do, but only until the Vampires start using their gaze effect to turn the Order against each other, Z Plane Shifts someone, and Nale...okay, Nale's weaponless and probably can't contribute much, but he's still got his wand of Enervation, which could take away the rest of Elan's spells.

Oh, and if Elan wanted to try and remove the fiends, his GDM would have to roll against Zz'drti's caster level, which is probably not a very good proposition at all. Basically, your described scenario only gives the OOTS a puncher's chance if everything goes right and the Linear Guild don't respond, which also describes what happened in the last fight with them. I don't see the Order getting that lucky again; at least, not lucky enough to win through conventional means.

[Raineh Daze]

You know... the spellcaster who "doesn't count" has greater dispel magic... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) so he could pop away both the summoned meat shields, Roy's sword is super effective against undead (and the vampire clerics are both running low on spells), Z found himself vulnerable to archery during the fight in Bleedingham... not saying this will be a cakewalk for the Order, but they definitely have a puncher's chance here.

If that's Planar Binding they've used, and I think it is (or something similar), then I don't think any form of Dispel Magic is of use. There's no ongoing spell effect (unlike summon monster, you're kind of stuck with what you get), I think.

But I'm not terribly sure on summoning rules.

[TRH]

If that's Planar Binding they've used, and I think it is (or something similar), then I don't think any form of Dispel Magic is of use. There's no ongoing spell effect (unlike summon monster, you're kind of stuck with what you get), I think.

But I'm not terribly sure on summoning rules.

Yep, just took a look at the rules, and a called creature can't be dismissed with Dispel Magic. I still don't think Elan could have succeeded at it anyway, but you never know. It would have been anticlimactic to have those summoned up only to be dismissed on contact with the enemy anyway.

[Shred-Bot]

If that's Planar Binding they've used, and I think it is (or something similar), then I don't think any form of Dispel Magic is of use. There's no ongoing spell effect (unlike summon monster, you're kind of stuck with what you get), I think.

But I'm not terribly sure on summoning rules.

Ack... I think you're right. I forgot that Planar Binding/Ally was not a "summoning" spell. Instantaneous duration means no dispel.

Well there goes that plan. (Edit: And ninja'd to boot!)

[Shred-Bot]

They do, but only until the Vampires start using their gaze effect to turn the Order against each other, Z Plane Shifts someone, and Nale...okay, Nale's weaponless and probably can't contribute much, but he's still got his wand of Enervation, which could take away the rest of Elan's spells.

Oh, and if Elan wanted to try and remove the fiends, his GDM would have to roll against Zz'drti's caster level, which is probably not a very good proposition at all. Basically, your described scenario only gives the OOTS a puncher's chance if everything goes right and the Linear Guild don't respond, which also describes what happened in the last fight with them. I don't see the Order getting that lucky again; at least, not lucky enough to win through conventional means.

...Okay since GDM won't even work on the called creatures even that is gone. Plus Tarquin isn't there, so Elan's super secret awesome plan won't come into play.

So since we know they won't get TPK-ed, which of the external interventions is most likely to save the day? The IFCC taking some time with V? Team Evil teleporting in? Malack deciding it's time to ice Nale now that Tarquin isn't looking over his shoulder? Something else entirely? The possibilities are endless!

[Raineh Daze]

I think Nale's in a liiiiiiiiiiittle bit of trouble here. Just a bit. :smallamused:

[MesiDoomstalker]

I have a counter proposal as to why Tarquin is leaving Nale to his own devices. Tarquin is ridiculously genre savvy right? Well he would know that when all hope for The Heroes is lost, they are only their final leg and the bad guys have all but won.... Something implausible happens that allows them to beat overwhelming odds. So Tarquin gunning for them with all of LG in tow would (in his Genre Savvy mind) lead to his defeat. By not participating, the heroes are no longer up against overwhelming odds (though still stacked against them) so the convention of "the good guys win in the end" doesn't kick in yet.

At least, if I were that genre savvy, thats what I'd do.

[Sky_Schemer]

That said, we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves by calculating V's potential participation at all before figuring out what the IFCC has in mind; I really doubt it's anything as simple as just motivating V to get back in the thick of it.

Indeed. Qtarr could be there on behalf of the IFCC to collect their payment due.

[Jay R]

Does anyone believe that Tarquin left Nale alone with Malack so Nale could impress him, as he said?

Tarquin is running a plan that we cannot figure out, and he's sacrificing Nale to do it.

[Amphiox]

Here's a thought:

LG engages OtS without V. Anticipating easy victory, Nale flubs the strategy.

V appears on the scene (empowered by the IFCC or not) AFTER Malack and Durkon have expended their turn, so no immediate chance of dominating him, and nukes Malack.

Durkula, dis-enthralled, turns on Nale.

We play Taps for Nale and Z.

[Olinser]

Haha! Very true, Tarquin would be smart enough to run when he is one in a million to lose. But his leaving makes it a little closer.

Now that you mention it, I do wonder why Quarr tracked down V. How would he know where to find him? Is the IFCC going to make a move? I would think they'd wait to have Sabine back in the picture. (I can't believe Sabine is flipping channels when she could be watching Nale and co.)

Well, Quarr works for the IFCC now.

The IFCC probably has some kind of tracker on V (probably put there when the Soul Splices were put in place).

Either that or the fact that V owes them 'soul time' allows them to always know where s/he is.

Presumably, the IFCC sent Quarr down there with a specific outcome in mind - either force V to continue running down that tunnel, or slap V across the face and make hir realize that s/he needs to get hir ass back to the party and help them.

[JavaScribe]

Haha! Very true, Tarquin would be smart enough to run when he is one in a million to lose. But his leaving makes it a little closer.

Now that you mention it, I do wonder why Quarr tracked down V. How would he know where to find him? Is the IFCC going to make a move? I would think they'd wait to have Sabine back in the picture. (I can't believe Sabine is flipping channels when she could be watching Nale and co.)
The afterlifes have access to epic level divination magic. In the IFCC's case, they more specifically have a magical television set. Remember when V fought Xykon? The tv was able to penetrate the Cloister.

[Jay R]

Here's a thought:

LG engages OtS without V. Anticipating easy victory, Nale flubs the strategy.

V appears on the scene (empowered by the IFCC or not) AFTER Malack and Durkon have expended their turn, so no immediate chance of dominating him, and nukes Malack.

Durkula, dis-enthralled, turns on Nale.

We play Taps for Nale and Z.

A. Durkon is predicted to return to the Dwarven homelands posthumously.

B. Origin of the PCs spoilerDurkon now has access to the Death and Destruction Spheres. He is predicted to bring Death and destruction to the dwarven homeland.

Therefore I do not expect him to be rescued in the near future.

[Snails]

Not sure why so many people want Malack to die so anti-climactically; he's not Kubota, he's got an actual personality! That said, we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves by calculating V's potential participation at all before figuring out what the IFCC has in mind; I really doubt it's anything as simple as just motivating V to get back in the thick of it.

I am not claiming that Malack will die so simply, but it is hardly a forgone conclusion if V were to arrive. It is not just Malack who is weaker than some assume, but also Durkula has many fewer hit points than Durkon.

As for the IFCC, we can say with great certainty that Tarquin seizing the Gate is definitely not something they want to have happen, even if we are bit privvy to all the details. Pushing V to save the day is a pretty good idea.

[pearl jam]

I have a counter proposal as to why Tarquin is leaving Nale to his own devices. Tarquin is ridiculously genre savvy right? Well he would know that when all hope for The Heroes is lost, they are only their final leg and the bad guys have all but won.... Something implausible happens that allows them to beat overwhelming odds. So Tarquin gunning for them with all of LG in tow would (in his Genre Savvy mind) lead to his defeat. By not participating, the heroes are no longer up against overwhelming odds (though still stacked against them) so the convention of "the good guys win in the end" doesn't kick in yet.

At least, if I were that genre savvy, thats what I'd do.

Alternatively, and I think someone has suggested this in this thread or the comic thread, that Tarquin's leaving suddenly could be the implausible thing that allows the Order to succeed after all, and he may be doing it because he wants to see the Order succeed, at least in limited fashion.

[Kyoda]

I think you might be overestimating what the IFCC would do here. After all their only representative on the scene kind of sucks, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) particularly with that super-advanced flying stealth dinosaur (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) around. I'm thinking Qarr might very well accidentally motivate V. An unexpected spell from V, some surprise competence from Elan and a little luck could turn the entire encounter on its head.

[Lkctgo]

The LG handily defeats the OOTS.

Nale stops to gloat, perhaps even cracking a wiseass comment about family to Elan.

Malack listens, says screw it, and casts Harm/a killing spell on Nale.

Malack returns to Tarquin, who asks him how Nale was? Malack will reply "like my family", before stomping off. Tarquin looks at him, enraged, then bows his head down, sad. But he understands that revenge was due.

Durkon makes a cute-toddler comment to Malack, and Malack(now out of screen) speaks to him like a Dad would.
-End Scene-

TADA! How the OOTS survived the slaughter.

Either that or Tarquin lies in wait with his own party, as soon as the OOTS pulls a Deus Ex Machina in the form of V, he swoops in and defeats them all. Literally, "having the villain sweep in at the last second."

He understands that since he got there too early. the trope is no longer valid, and he has to get his other party members to SWOOP IN!

[Fish]

The tactical situation:

If Zz'dtri ever sees V, unharmed from the Plane of Torment that Qarr told him about, then Z will realize his own familiar was lying to him. He may blame Sabine, and take it out on Nale.

If Nale makes a move against Durkon, Malack's new "child," there's gonna be war.

Malack may become upset with Nale and Z if it ever comes out that they knew about Xykon's imminent arrival -- remember, they scryed on Elan's illiterate note -- and didn't mention it.

The Linear party now consists of vampires, Drow, and demon-spawn. Is it possible that there are no defenses for an evil invasion? I doubt it. If nothing else, they have no decent thief. There are still traps.

Things can be surprisingly even if the Giant needs it to be.

[Jay R]

Tarquin was never on Nale's side. He was using Nale for his own purposes. The only reason he didn't let Malack kill Nale earlier was that Nale pretended to have useful information about the gate.

[Snails]

Tarquin was never on Nale's side. He was using Nale for his own purposes. The only reason he didn't let Malack kill Nale earlier was that Nale pretended to have useful information about the gate.

I suspect Tarquin considers this "quality time" with his sons.

We should keep in mind that Tarquin captured Nale in Malack's presence, presumably because that would gain instant compliance from Nale. He could have bided his time and captured Nale out of Malack's sight easily enough.

It is roughly equally plausible that Tarquin will decide that Nale or Malack are disposable in the near future. People keep assuming that Tarquin holds genuine affection for Malack. Tarquin is talented at creating that impression.

Using my Bardic Knowledge, it is approximately 1000% likely that Nale will live for a while. His fate will be sealed while Sabine is present, one way or another. Sabine is set up for a test: betray Nale or betray the IFCC.

[Sky_Schemer]

It is roughly equally plausible that Tarquin will decide that Nale or Malack are disposable in the near future. People keep assuming that Tarquin holds genuine affection for Malack. Tarquin is talented at creating that impression.

I would be very disappointed in the story if it turned out that Malack meant very little to Tarquin, so little that he were disposable. Yes, Tarquin is good at creating that impression, but Rich has explicitly gone out of his way to show that there's mutual respect and affection between the two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html)and a relationship that is deeper than one of convenience. This is not Xykon and Redcloak. It would take something very significant to break T & M apart.

Now, forcing Malack to work with Nale is obviously straining things, and is likely close to that point, but Tarquin is playing a trump card of "it's business" and Malack seems willing to accept it for now, presumably because he knows Tarquin has something in mind. How long will that last? Who knows, but there's definitely a real, honest relationship between the two of them and I don't see it ending on a whim.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Agreed. One of Rich's common themes is that even evil people have loved ones, those they care about. Tarquin and Malack genuinely like and respect each other.

Right now though, the real wild card is V. If the IFCC decides to cash in some of their soul time now, then V's going to be a completely uncontrollable nuke.

[Bulldog Psion]

Considering V's debt, things just went from "grim" to "Victor Hugo." :smallwink:

[Starwaster]

I think you might be overestimating what the IFCC would do here. After all their only representative on the scene kind of sucks, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) particularly with that super-advanced flying stealth dinosaur (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) around. I'm thinking Qarr might very well accidentally motivate V. An unexpected spell from V, some surprise competence from Elan and a little luck could turn the entire encounter on its head.

There's nothing accidental about it. Quarr's didn't come back fresh from his meeting with the IFCC just to seek out Vaarsuvius and start throwing schoolyard taunts at him. He's there to give him a good swift kick in her elvish butt and get him moving again.

[Fish]

Agreed. One of Rich's common themes is that even evil people have loved ones, those they care about.
He's also set up Tarquin to be Darth Vader and Malack to be Palpatine. Are we headed toward a moment where Vader tosses the Emperor into a reactor shaft? Or a subversion of that trope?

Right now though, the real wild card is V. If the IFCC decides to cash in some of their soul time now, then V's going to be a completely uncontrollable nuke.
They could say. "We didn't want Malack to get control of that Gate." It wouldn't mean they necessarily wanted Xykon to do so.

[Snails]

Agreed. One of Rich's common themes is that even evil people have loved ones, those they care about. Tarquin and Malack genuinely like and respect each other.

And Tarquin seems to love his sons. He probably loved his numerous wives, too, some of which he tortured. What Tarquin understands as affection, respect, love is not easily understood by a typical healthy human mind.

To guess that some kind affection for Malack will trump some kind of love for Nale is a pretty dodgy exercise. One guess or another is bound to be correct. But to assume one particular choice is highly likely suggests a basic misunderstanding of Tarquin's peculiar nature.

[Mike Havran]

With Hamatula and Piscoloth around, it is even less likely that the Order has any chance of winning in a direct team-to-team combat. Those fiends would be pretty dangerous stuff even if the Order were in better shape. But without Tarquin's presence, the new Nale's team may pretty well fall apart on its own.

Malack: doesn't need much to lash out on Nale and kill him. Just a slightest hint about Nale lying about his usefullness, and it's due.

Nale: Knows exactly what Malack is about and will try to weasel out at some point. He might try to destroy Malack at some point, before Malack does the same to him.

Zz'dtri: Nale treats him like crap, without any sort of respect. If(when) he realises Qarr lied to him about the coordinates he gets that he is being played for fool, if not even backstabbed, and may unleash a fury on both the imp and possibly Sabine and Nale. After all, Tarquin treats him rather nicely and it's not like wizard of his power can't be useful for the empire and get all the luxuries for his services.

Durkula: Right now he completely obeys Malack, but if his Master bites the dust, all bets are off.

Sabine: If she makes it before the conflict, her presence will probably only increase the tension between Malack and Nale.

Qarr: will probably actively try to ignite the conflict, since it's in his Master's best interests to weaken every other team and make it easier for Vaarsuvius to get to the gate.

So the conclusion is that we can look for some nasty quips and a big bloodshed when the Order and Nale's team meet again :smallamused:

[TRH]

If(when) he realises Qarr lied to him about the coordinates he gets that he is being played for fool, if not even backstabbed, and may unleash a fury on both the imp and possibly Sabine and Nale.


Funny you should bring that up; the way Vaarsuvius looks right now, it wouldn't be hard to buy that she's been on the Demiplane of Painful Torture. Qarr could probably sell that if he tried.

[Sky_Schemer]

But without Tarquin's presence, the new Nale's team may pretty well fall apart on its own.

And this is a good point. Nale is a lousy leader. He plans well (his plans may be needlessly complicated, but they work), but once things go off-script he doesn't know what to do. Plans are great until the enemy stops following your plan, and what makes a good leader is that ability to adapt to a fluid situation on-the-fly.

The only thing keeping the LG going is a constantly supply of more resources.

[Mike Havran]

Funny you should bring that up; the way Vaarsuvius looks right now, it wouldn't be hard to buy that she's been on the Demiplane of Painful Torture. Qarr could probably sell that if he tried.

Maybe, but not when Durkula is around. He already shown he can think and speak of his own volition and being Lawful, he'll be happy to clarify where exactly did he find V :smallamused:

[Fish]

Or V could just ... say it himself. If he's there, he can presumably speak enough to ask, "Why did you send me to that tedious plane of condiments?" And cue the in-fighting.

[Olinser]

Maybe, but not when Durkula is around. He already shown he can think and speak of his own volition and being Lawful, he'll be happy to clarify where exactly did he find V :smallamused:

Well that just brings up the whole issue of how much Durkon is in control, and how much is a new personality.

There is a difference between being controlled, and being actively helpful and volunteering information.

The Oracle is a great example of how somebody, while being totally truthful, can fail to provide you any information.

As an example, say you are riding in a car, and given the command, "Stop the car." You can slowly press the brake and move the car to a slow stop at the side of the road. An equally valid interpretation is to stomp on the emergency brake and come to a dead stop in the middle of the highway.

So the question is, was Durkon's request to summon a fiend because he's trying to be helpful.... or because he knows that the fiend will be under HIS control. His request could have been more, "I know I need your permission to summon things, so can I summon a fiend under my control that I will still have control over, and immediately sic on Nale when they kill you?"

We don't really have enough information yet, but it will be interesting to see really how helpful Durkon is in the coming fight. He may not give them any information except in response to a direct and unambiguous question.

[Mike Havran]

There is a difference between being controlled, and being actively helpful and volunteering information.


I would say he is just genuinely trying to be helpful. Anyway, he used Planar Ally spell, so he still needs to bargain with the hamatula, and Malack will definitely want to have some say in this.

As long as he is under Malack's thrall, he probably won't have any ulterior motives, and mentioning Ranch Dressing Demiplane would be the textbook example of a stone that triggers an avalanche.

[Belkar<3]

I do not think the Tactical Situation is done changing yet. Why would Quarr go looking for V?

Maybe he was directed by IFCC?

[Kaurne]

Malack may become upset with Nale and Z if it ever comes out that they knew about Xykon's imminent arrival -- remember, they scryed on Elan's illiterate note -- and didn't mention it.

I never thought properly about this. We talk about how Tarquin is completely playing Nale, but could Nale be running his own scheme on Tarquin? Does Nale think (with some justification) that Xykon will never work with Tarquin, and is hoping Xykon will kill Tarquin (and maybe Malack or the rest of his adventuring party) leaving Nale to take control of the Empire of Blood, expecting Xykon to be fought by the OotS? This requires a bit more planning and subtlety than we've seen from Nale previously, but why can't he have developed a bit?

[Shred-Bot]

I would say he is just genuinely trying to be helpful. Anyway, he used Planar Ally spell, so he still needs to bargain with the hamatula, and Malack will definitely want to have some say in this.

As long as he is under Malack's thrall, he probably won't have any ulterior motives, and mentioning Ranch Dressing Demiplane would be the textbook example of a stone that triggers an avalanche.

I doubt we'll see any bargaining... without Elan's inability to grasp the concept and the recurring Lime Green Boots of Speed, a bargaining scene probably won't be too exciting. Maybe a one panel "1200 gold each to come fight the Order of the Stick with us?" "Okay." If it comes up at all.

[FireJustice]

i believe that business already means "in the end, you get to kill Nale"
simple like that

Nale's chance to impress Tarkin isn't to win against OotS, it is to see it coming and make a counter strategy

Of course he will fail.

I mean it's four spellcasters, you don't need minions, you can march and call them out

"it's more than enough..."
"this is your chance to impress me with what you learned..."

sure it's not about beating the order of the stick

[Snails]

I never thought properly about this. We talk about how Tarquin is completely playing Nale, but could Nale be running his own scheme on Tarquin? Does Nale think (with some justification) that Xykon will never work with Tarquin, and is hoping Xykon will kill Tarquin (and maybe Malack or the rest of his adventuring party) leaving Nale to take control of the Empire of Blood, expecting Xykon to be fought by the OotS? This requires a bit more planning and subtlety than we've seen from Nale previously, but why can't he have developed a bit?

I like how your mind works, but I expect Sabine to know (or strongly suspect) what Nale is up to.

Sabine seems to have been manipulating Nale to play along with Tarquin, presumably because she knows they are between a rock and a hard place and playing the IFCC card against Malack is all she (they) got.

[The Pilgrim]

Oh, and if Elan wanted to try and remove the fiends, his GDM would have to roll against Zz'drti's caster level, which is probably not a very good proposition at all.

Elan likely has just one level of Dashing Swordsman, and Z has a +2 level adjustment for being a Drow. So, assuming they are same level, Elan still gets a +1 to his roll.

[BenjCano]

The afterlifes have access to epic level divination magic. In the IFCC's case, they more specifically have a magical television set. Remember when V fought Xykon? The tv was able to penetrate the Cloister.

The IFCC was only able to scry on V and Xykon after V had broken the Cloister effect with Epic Teleport.

[Olinser]

The IFCC was only able to scry on V and Xykon after V had broken the Cloister effect with Epic Teleport.

V was never under cloister. And the IFCC had been watching V for months - Quarr pointed out that the only way they would have known about Durkon, the scroll and whatnot is if they had been watching V for an extended period of time.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Cloister targeting inhabitants of an area is only part of the effect, it also targets the area itself. V was "under Cloister" when he teleported into the tower.

[skaddix]

They probably get to use Divine Scrying just like Roy used in the afterlife which automatically goes through Cloister

[Gift Jeraff]

I never thought properly about this. We talk about how Tarquin is completely playing Nale, but could Nale be running his own scheme on Tarquin? Does Nale think (with some justification) that Xykon will never work with Tarquin, and is hoping Xykon will kill Tarquin (and maybe Malack or the rest of his adventuring party) leaving Nale to take control of the Empire of Blood, expecting Xykon to be fought by the OotS? This requires a bit more planning and subtlety than we've seen from Nale previously, but why can't he have developed a bit?

This is what I've been thinking/hoping for a while. I'd like to see Nale pull a Tarquin on Tarquin.

:nale: I said you won't get the ritual without my help. I never specified if you'd get it with my help.

[Rorrik]

I like how your mind works, but I expect Sabine to know (or strongly suspect) what Nale is up to.

Sabine seems to have been manipulating Nale to play along with Tarquin, presumably because she knows they are between a rock and a hard place and playing the IFCC card against Malack is all she (they) got.

But remember Sabine's last words to Nale: "Don't trust any of them." She definitely knows more than she's letting on, but she's also clearly not double-crossing Nale.

I think the idea of Nale's test being to keep the party in line is a good one. With so much fire power it would seem easy for him to win, IF that firepower were loyal to him. So the challenge is not so much to win, but to marshal his forces so he can win. Nale doesn't seem to have that one figured out yet. He's antagonizing even now and I'll bet it bites him before he wins the battle.

I can't believe how long we've been kept waiting for Xykon to arrive, the tension is killing me. Not to mention now Tarquin is going off to bring another intriguing element in. We've got a battle of five armies situation on our hands.

[pwning doodes]

So...Speaking of "five armies", how many sides do we count so far out of the nine (or more) mentioned by the demon roaches? Sorry if this is off topic for this thread, but the previous comment made me think about it.

Here's what I can think of if I can count each seperate set of motives as a side.

Tarquin
Nale
Malack
IFCC
Sabine? (She's sort of struggling between the IFCC and Nale)
Xykon
Redcloak/The Dark One
The Monster in the Darkness
OotS

What does the Playground think?

[Silverionmox]

Malack emphatically doesn't care about the gates and would rather buzz off ASAP.

The Mitd is just tagging along ("Gate? What gate?").

Sabine may be torn between Nale and the IFCC, but those two sides are already accounted for.

The Paladins are a side.

The Draketooths would have been a side, so perhaps 9 sides isn't applicable anymore.

Perhaps there are sentient guardians for the last gate too.

[Bulldog Psion]

So...Speaking of "five armies", how many sides do we count so far out of the nine (or more) mentioned by the demon roaches? Sorry if this is off topic for this thread, but the previous comment made me think about it.

Here's what I can think of if I can count each seperate set of motives as a side.

Tarquin
Nale
Malack
IFCC
Sabine? (She's sort of struggling between the IFCC and Nale)
Xykon
Redcloak/The Dark One
The Monster in the Darkness
OotS

What does the Playground think?

In the first place, it was Redcloak who said it, if I'm not mistaken.

In the second place, I think he was referring to the nine alignments rather than nine specific factions.

In the third place, I think there are a bunch of "sides" on that list that Redcloak doesn't even know exists, or wouldn't count. Do you really think Redcloak would count the MitD as a separate side? Or Sabine, one member of a small group of losers he hired once long ago, as a separate side in this epic struggle? :smallsigh: Or that he knew Tarquin and Malack existed at that point, let alone that there was a possibility they would fall out over Nale? :smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

[Kaurne]

In the first place, it was Redcloak who said it, if I'm not mistaken.

In the second place, I think he was referring to the nine alignments rather than nine specific factions.

In the third place, I think there are a bunch of "sides" on that list that Redcloak doesn't even know exists, or wouldn't count. Do you really think Redcloak would count the MitD as a separate side? Or Sabine, one member of a small group of losers he hired once long ago, as a separate side in this epic struggle? :smallsigh: Or that he knew Tarquin and Malack existed at that point, let alone that there was a possibility they would fall out over Nale? :smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh:

Nope: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html

The Roaches are the ones who say it, and they're very clearly talking about different factions.

As for that list... it's a stretch, to be honest.

I'd say:

-OotS
-Paladins/Sapphire Guard
-Xykon
-Redcloak/the Dark One/goblins in general
-Linear Guild (Nale, and those loyal to him)
-Team Tarquin
-The IFCC
-Unknown #1
-Unknown #2

Dividing the sides up even further is, I think, invalid. Sabine, for example, is simply a character caught between two sides; the Linear Guild, and the IFCC.

I'd say the most reasonable guesses for the unknowns would be the Draketooth Clan and perhaps a group of sentients at Kraagors. Not necessarily the most likely, but certainly a reasonable suggestion.

The Draketooth Clan is obviously debateable, given they didn't actually involve themselves in the story that much, but given that they were actually guarding one of the gates, thus implicitly being a side, and would have been a faction struggling for dominance if it hadn't been for Familicide, I think they count.

It's entirely possible we'll see another faction (perhaps dwarvish) appear in the next two books to form another one of the nine sides, but that seems unlikely... I'll need to think on it some more.

[Jay R]

The Roaches are the ones who say it, and they're very clearly talking about different factions.

A. They said "at least nine".

B. We cannot assume that the roaches know all the sides.

C. We cannot assume that they know where all the fractures are. Do they know that Redcloak is not on Xykon's side, for instance?

Therefore all we get out of this statement is that there are several factions.

[TRH]

C. We cannot assume that they know where all the fractures are. Do they know that Redcloak is not on Xykon's side, for instance?


Actually, from Start of Darkness, I'm pretty sure we can.

They were in the coffeehouse where Redcloak first told Xykon about all of the Gate and Snarl lore. When Xykon went to the bathroom, Right-Eye asked Redcloak why he was withholding information from Xykon and Redcloak explained. Since the roaches were there, they probably heard. Ergo, they know that X and R's goals don't overlap perfectly.

[Snails]

But remember Sabine's last words to Nale: "Don't trust any of them." She definitely knows more than she's letting on, but she's also clearly not double-crossing Nale.

Depends how you define "double-cross". Clearly Sabine cares about Nale. But the obvious way to save Nale's life at this point is to bring in the IFCC at the right moment and hope they simply squish Malack and Tarquin. I think that is the best guest about what is going through Sabine's mind.

Technically that would be double-crossing Nale, but with a little smoke and mirrors and spinning "that was the only way to save you from Malack", and all is good enough in Sabine's eyes.

[Gift Jeraff]

Though the Draketooth Clan is gone, the defense they set up are indiscriminately hindering all other contenders for the Gates, so they might still be considered a side.

[Snails]

I am pretty certain that the roaches were making a throwaway Great Wheel joke: {Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic} X {Good, Neutral, Evil}.

Everyone has a horse in this race, even if the goal of their horse is to simply prevent anyone else from winning the race.

[Olinser]

Actually, from Start of Darkness, I'm pretty sure we can.

They were in the coffeehouse where Redcloak first told Xykon about all of the Gate and Snarl lore. When Xykon went to the bathroom, Right-Eye asked Redcloak why he was withholding information from Xykon and Redcloak explained. Since the roaches were there, they probably heard. Ergo, they know that X and R's goals don't overlap perfectly.

Well that gets into the two question of:

How many demon roaches are there? I think 4 are the most featured on panel at the same time - but there could be CONSIDERABLY more.

and

Do they tell each other everything?

[Gift Jeraff]

I am pretty certain that the roaches were making a throwaway Great Wheel joke: {Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic} X {Good, Neutral, Evil}.

Everyone has a horse in this race, even if the goal of their horse is to simply prevent anyone else from winning the race.

Rich says in DStP commentary that we'd meet one of the nine sides in Book 5.

[Snails]

Rich says in DStP commentary that we'd meet one of the nine sides in Book 5.

How do you interpret that comment?

[ReaderAt2046]

Haha! Very true, Tarquin would be smart enough to run when he is one in a million to lose. But his leaving makes it a little closer.

Now that you mention it, I do wonder why Quarr tracked down V. How would he know where to find him? Is the IFCC going to make a move? I would think they'd wait to have Sabine back in the picture. (I can't believe Sabine is flipping channels when she could be watching Nale and co.)

Maybe she can't find the LG anywhere? With Nale and Sabine in a semi-monogamous relationship, and none of the other guilders having any visible romantic inclinations, they probably aren't exactly prime-time viewing material, especially in the succubus quarters.

[skim172]

I interpret nine sides more as general factions, rather than specific goals. So while Redcloak and Xykon are destined to clash, they officially identify themselves as being on the same "team" and have common goals and common strategies, even if they're a bit dysfunctional. I suppose you could argue that certain individuals with their own agendas are a faction of their own (Eugene, the Oracle, the Snarl, Malack, the black dragon), but I'm leery of that approach, since you could end up defining every character as having individual, slightly different objectives.

So I'd count them up like this:
1. The Order
2. Team Evil (Xykon, Redcloak, MitD)
3. The Linear Guild
4. Azurites and the Sapphire Guard (now a group of refugees)
5. The IFCC
6. The League of Tarquin

Which leaves three open spots. Now, it could be that "nine sides" is more of a rough estimate - maybe the Giant isn't entirely committed to it, but has a sense it'll work out to about nine. Some potential candidates:

a) the Order of the Scribble. While they haven't made a living appearance in the main comic, they have been a major part of this story so far. You could argue that they constitute a "side" in this conflict, as they've had a major hand in structuring it.

b) the Thieves' Guild. Yes, it does look like their moment in the story is effectively ended, but they were pretty important for a time, and they're not easily reducible into one of the other factions. And they might make a reappearance, with the Starshines now out of prison.

c) Enor and Gannji. They haven't been too important, but they did get a lot of spotlight and characterization, so maybe they'll return in the story. Then again, maybe they were just a bit part, like the Two Assassins. And they're only two guys. So this seems unlikely.

d) Frudu, Samwose, and the Fellowship of the Ming. Hey, you never know.

[Olinser]

I interpret nine sides more as general factions, rather than specific goals. So while Redcloak and Xykon are destined to clash, they officially identify themselves as being on the same "team" and have common goals and common strategies, even if they're a bit dysfunctional. I suppose you could argue that certain individuals with their own agendas are a faction of their own (Eugene, the Oracle, the Snarl, Malack, the black dragon), but I'm leery of that approach, since you could end up defining every character as having individual, slightly different objectives.

So I'd count them up like this:
1. The Order
2. Team Evil (Xykon, Redcloak, MitD)
3. The Linear Guild
4. Azurites and the Sapphire Guard (now a group of refugees)
5. The IFCC
6. The League of Tarquin

Which leaves three open spots. Now, it could be that "nine sides" is more of a rough estimate - maybe the Giant isn't entirely committed to it, but has a sense it'll work out to about nine. Some potential candidates:

a) the Order of the Scribble. While they haven't made a living appearance in the main comic, they have been a major part of this story so far. You could argue that they constitute a "side" in this conflict, as they've had a major hand in structuring it.

b) the Thieves' Guild. Yes, it does look like their moment in the story is effectively ended, but they were pretty important for a time, and they're not easily reducible into one of the other factions. And they might make a reappearance, with the Starshines now out of prison.

c) Enor and Gannji. They haven't been too important, but they did get a lot of spotlight and characterization, so maybe they'll return in the story. Then again, maybe they were just a bit part, like the Two Assassins. And they're only two guys. So this seems unlikely.

d) Frudu, Samwose, and the Fellowship of the Ming. Hey, you never know.

I would argue that Team Evil is split up into TWO factions:

1) Redcloak/Goblin Nation
2) Xykon

Their goals are not the same. Redcloak knows he's going to have to get rid of Xykon eventually, and from what we've seen, Xykon knows Redcloak is planning to betray him. The only question is which of them is going to stab the other in the back first.

And arguably, the MiTD could be included as his own faction - although he doesn't really have a 'goal' per se, so that could go either way. He really isn't that committed to Team Evil.

[rodneyAnonymous]

...and from what we've seen, Xykon knows Redcloak is planning to betray him.

That's not true, is it? He knows it might happen, not he thinks it will.

[Mike Havran]

The Dark One is definitely one of the sides. Redloak can be listed in his team, in Team Evil, or both - so far.

I would guess the Order of the Scribble (or, perhaps, the Gate Guardians) is another side.

Third one and perhaps another one will be introduced in the next arc.

It can be argued that Tiamat and Oracle can also be a side, but I don't think they actively do anything. Another candidate would be Eugene who knows about the Gates and has his own agenda, but then, the Gates themeselves don't interest him.

Thieves' Guild or similar are not a side of the conflict, per se, because they know nothing about the main plot.

[B. Dandelion]

This nine sides discussion... it seems like... we've had it before, maybe?

2008-04-11 - The Nine Sides? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77565) (original - comic posted on same day)
2008-05-10 - Nine Sides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80234)
2008-11-19 - Sides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97114)
2009-02-21 - How many "sides" are there in this conflict, anyway? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105284)
2009-04-08 - Looking back at 548's "Nine Sides"... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108886)
2009-06-12 - Sides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114690)
2009-07-24 - How many sides are there in this conflict anyway? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119355)
2009-08-31 - 9 sides to the battle (Spoilers, hoy) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123426)
2010-01-10 - Count to Nine (DStP semi-spoilers) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138027)
2010-09-05 - Nine sides debate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167352)
2010-11-28 - The nine sides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177510)
2011-03-04 - Nine sides to the conflict? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189646)
2011-05-07 - how many sides are there in OotS? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198319)
2011-07-12 -The Nine Sides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207050)
2011-10-03 - Those 9 Sides to the Conflict . . . (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217551)
2012-01-29 - Who are the nine sides? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230654)
2013-03-01 - "I count at least nine" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273825)

So hey, from the original thread, this:


"The Order of the Stick"
LED BY: Roy Greenhilt (deceased)
OTHER MEMBERS: Haley, Elan, Vaarsuvius, Belkar, and Durkon
ALLIES: The Sapphire Guard, Celia
STATED GOAL: to destroy Xykon
CURRENT STATUS: Aiding Hinjo and attempting to Raise Roy.
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Directly oppose Xykon's continued existence

"Team Evil"
LED BY: Xykon
OTHER MEMBERS: Tsukiko, The Monster In The Darkness
ALLIES: The Dark Church
STATED GOAL: world domination
CURRENT STATUS: building various magical devices in preparation for next assault
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Believes seizing a Gate can lead to the stated goal.

"The Dark Church"
LED BY: The Dark One (spiritual mentor)
OTHER MEMBERS: The High Priest ("Redcloak") as acting head, Jirix and the other hobgoblins in Azure City, the Dark One's worshipers in general
ALLIES: Team Evil
STATED GOAL: equality for goblinoids
CURRENT STATUS: Consolidating hobgoblin power in Azure City
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Believes seizing a Gate can lead to the stated goal.

"The Linear Guild"
LED BY: Nale, Super-Genius
OTHER MEMBERS: Sabine, Thog, various part-timers
ALLIES: Possibly the Dark Overlords
STATED GOAL: petty revenge
CURRENT STATUS: Attempting to seize a Gate unawares
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Following up on Nale's "eeeeevil potential" and a desire to smash the OOTS, Elan in particular

"Dark Overlords"
LED BY: The Dark Overlords
OTHER MEMBERS: Sabine
ALLIES: Possibly the Linear Guild
STATED GOAL: to tip the world's balance in favor of evil
CURRENT STATUS: Current activities are unknown
REASON FOR CONFLICT: have not yet taken an overt action

"The Sapphire Guard"
LED BY: Lord Hinjo
OTHER MEMBERS: Lien, O-Chul, House Kato, most of the refugees
ALLIES: The Order of the Stick
STATED GOAL: Restoration of Azure City
CURRENT STATUS: Recruiting new members, seeking asylum
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Want Azure City back under Hinjo's control

"The Order of the Scribble"
LED BY: No stated leader
OTHER MEMBERS: Soon (deceased), Lirian (deceased), Dorukan (deceased), Kraagor (deceased and annihilated), Serini and Girard
ALLIES: Potentially with anyone willing to defend the Gates
STATED GOAL: to defend the Gates
CURRENT STATUS: 2 Gates still stand, and their defenders are not confirmed dead.
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Oppose all attempts to control or destroy the Gates, due to the danger of the Snarl

Holds up not terribly badly for a way-out-of-date list (before the IFCC had made their debute and named themselves). If we add Tarquin as a side, and leave one blank slot open for whoever we encounter at Serini/Kraagor's Gate, I'd stick with it*.



"The Regisurp of Tarquin"
LED BY: Tarquin
OTHER MEMBERS: Malack, Miron, (3 unnamed party members)
ALLIES: The Linear Guild
STATED GOAL: to establish a stable empire
CURRENT STATUS: large and in charge
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Seek to control the Snarl for personal gain

"The Dwarves of the North"
LED BY: ...the priest of Odin?
OTHER MEMBERS: High priest of Thor, other dwarves
ALLIES: None directly stated
STATED GOAL: To not get killed off
CURRENT STATUS: Not killed off
REASON FOR CONFLICT: Banished Durkon in the name of prophecy; guardians of the Northern Gate


*Full disclosure: Obviously I would be prejudiced in favor of "Remirach"'s account since that was me before I idiotically locked myself out of that account, but seriously, it's not bad, even with the "joke entries" like Baron Pineapple in the speculative area

So then:

1. OOTS
2. Team Evil
3. Dark One & Co
4. Linear Guild
5. IFCC
6. Sapphire Guard
7. Scribblies
8. Blood, Sweat & Tears
9. Northern Dwarves or whatever defenses are up there

Sure, you could count out the Scribblies since they seem to all be dead (saving maybe Serini) but they did play an active part in the prelude and they're non-negligible in the main plot, so it seems ok to possibly include them, especially when "who constitutes a side" is so vague to begin with.