Manuvers with Thrown Weapons

[ZamielVanWeber]

I am trying to help out one of my players with a damage drop issue. I suggested Tome of Battle, but have since been unable to find manuvers that work with thrown weapons. Am I missing anything?

[Qc Storm]

Dunno about maneuvers, but Bloodstorm Hurler (I think?) is pretty much the king of throwers.

Prestige class from the same book.

[Phelix-Mu]

The whole book (with the notable exception of the Bloodstorm Blade PrC) attempts to pretend that ranged combat doesn't exist. Quite silly, IMO.

[Curmudgeon]

No, you're not missing anything. Tome of Battle is mostly a melee combat supplement. There's one prestige class in there (Bloodstorm Blade) which does something with thrown weapons, but it uses no maneuvers at all.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, I figured as much. Thankfully this is what DM Fiat is for.

[Big Fau]

There are some maneuvers that work with ranged attacks, and the Bloodstorm Blade does utilize maneuvers (it just doesn't progress them).

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, upon reflection, there do seem to be some exceptions.

The one that jumps to mind first is actually not really throwing a weapon, but all of the throws in the Setting Sun discipline that indicate that you can throw the target of the maneuver into an occupied square. I'm trying to see how this doesn't mean that you can use the Throw Anything feat (or the Hulking Hurler upgrade) to hurt Orc #2 by bodily throwing Orc #1 at it. This may actually allow you to bypass the feats in Races of Stone (which weren't that great, IIRC).

[HunterOfJello]

Yes, you are missing something. Bloodstorm Blade 2 lets you use Iron Heart maneuvers with thrown weapons (excluding maneuvers that strike multiple opponents).

Bloodstorm Blade can be a decent 2 or 4 level dip for a Warblade.

[ZamielVanWeber]

But if he has no levels in an initiator class in the first place bloodstorm blade does jack. Otherwise I would have sent him there.

[Talionis]

Carnivore posted this in the Archery Handbook:

look here:

http://69.8.198.229/wotc_archive/index.php/t-831418

in case it is lost .... here it is:

quote= Nadaka
"04-18-07, 03:18 AM
Warblade archery build, required material: Core, PHB2, ToB, CW, I think thats all.

Human warblade 20, 32 point buy (its what I use in my campaigns)
Str 14 +6 item = 20
Dex 18 +5 levels +6 item +1 tome = 30
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8

Feats
1: EWP Composite Great Bow, Point Blank Shot
3: rapid shot
5: bonus Improved initiative
6: weapon focus: GB
9: weapon specialization: GB
9: bonus blind fight
12: ranged weapon mastery: GB
13: quickdraw
15: Greater weapon focus: GB
17: diehard
18: Greater weapon specialization: GB

Stances: blood in the water, stone foot stance, giants stance, hearing the air

Maneuvers
1: Moment of perfect mind, sudden leap, stone bones, 1

2: Action before thought

3: mind over body

4: fountain of blood

5: dancing mongoose

6: boulder roll

7: quick silver motion

8: raging mongoose

9: Time stands still, diamond defence

Upgrade stonebones and unneeded maneuver as needed. quick silver motion isn't 100% needed, it can be exchanged for Iron Heart surge if the unused maneuver is also iron heart.

Weapons and ammo.
MW composite greatbow +5 str 1510 gp
+5 flaming shock frost acidic 162k gp
bracers of greater archery 25k gp
item of haste

unmodified attacks
Attack 20 BAB + 10 dex +5 magic +1 PBS +1 wf +1 gwf +2 rwm +2 boga + 1 haste = +43
damage = 1d10 +4d6 elemental +5 str +5 magic +1 PBS +2 ws +2 gws +2 rwm +1 boga = 1d10+18 +4d6

Stances: Giants stance + blood in the water. Giants stance treats my damage as one size category larger, bloodin the water gives me +1 to hit and damage for every critical hit with a few limitations. These are the only offensive stances that work well with ranged weapons unfortunately.

This boosts my damage to 2d8+4d6+18 at +42 to hit with a conditional +1 to +X from blood in the water where X is the number of critical hits I have made since BitW was activated (though I loose the bonus if I don't critically hit for 1 minute).

The attack sequence is Raging Mongoose then Time stands still in the first round, and then a full attack with dancing mongoose in the second, then a full attack + swift action in the third to recover.

So i get
r1: 2 attacks at +43, then 2 full round attacks with speed and rapid shot (+41, +41, +41, +35, +31, +26)x2
r2: 1 attack at +43, then 1 full round attack with speed and rapid shot (+41, +41, +41, +35, +31, +26)
r3: rapid recovery then 1 full round attack with speed and rapid shot (+41, +41, +41, +35, +31, +26)

Against a defence 27 or less target I am hitting 95% on 14 attacks at ~41 damage per hit in round one for an average damage of 545.3 in round 1, 272.65 in round 2 and 233.7 in round 3. Then I can repeat as needed for 350.55 damage per round.

Another option is to skip the second round for an average damage of 389.5 per round.

None of this is counting critical hits, and with that the math gets a bit tricky...
there is a 5% chance on each hit to crit for a 4.75% chance of +~54 damage for +2.565 damage per attack. that gives me +35.91 in r1, +17.955 in r2 and 15.39 in r3. Except that each crit increases the damage as well. And I just don't feal like doing that math.

Also note that by taking 1 level of fighter I loose only one of my defensive maneuver slots, 1 hp, but gain 1 or 2 (if droping the ewp) feats and +1 fort save.
With a fighter level and switching to longbow, I loose 2 points of average damage (1d8->2d6 while in giants stance) but I can get weapon supremacy and another feat. I could add twf and replace the unused maneuver and boulder roll with melee strikes for added versitility (because the mongoose maneuvers are quite effective with twf. Or instead of supremacy and twf, I could get many shot/ improved rapid shot to focus on my archery though I am not convinced the +2 effective to hit would be worth it compared to being able to take 10 and add 5 on lower attacks that I would get with supremacy.

The following martial stances are at least somewhat useful for ranged combatants
Desert Wind
Flames Blessing
Holocaust Cloak
Rising Pheonix

Devoted Spirit
Aura of Perfect Order [law]
Aura of Triumph [good] *6
Aura of Tyranny [Evil]
Immortal Fortitude

Diamond Mind
Hearing the Air
Pearl of Black Doubt
Stance of Alacrity
Stance of Clarity

Iron Heart
Absolute Steel
Supreme Blade Parry

Setting Sun
Ghostly Defense
Giant Killing Style
Shifting Defense
Step of the Wind

Shadow Hand
Assassins Stance
Balance on the Sky *7
Child of Shadow
Dance of the Spider *7
Step of the Dancing Moth

Stone Dragon
Giants Stance
Stonefoot Stance
Strenth of Stone
Roots of the mountain

Tiger Claw
Blood in the Water
Hunters Sense
Leaping Dragon Stance

White Raven
Bolstering Voice
Leading the Charge
Press the Advantage
Swarm Tactics

The following martial maneuvers do not require melee attacks
Desert Wind
Blistering Flourish
Distracting Ember
Dragons Flame
Fan the Flames
Fire Repost ****
Fire Snake *****
Hatchlings Flame
Inferno Blast
Leaping Flame
Ring of Fire
Wind Stride
Wyrm's Flame
Zypher Dance

Devoted Spirit
Shield Block ***

Diamond Mind
Action Before Thought
Diamond Defense
Mind over body
Moment of Alacrity
Quicksilver Motion
*Time Stands Still

Iron Heart
Iron Heart Endurance
Iron Heart Focus
Iron Heart Surge

Setting Sun
Baffling Defence
Feigned Opening *6
Mirrored Pursuit
Scorpion Parry
Stalking Shadow

Shadow Hand
Cloak of Deception
One With Shadow
Shadow Blink
Shadow Garrote
Shadow Jaunt
Shadow Noose
Shadow Stride

Stone Dragon
*Adamantine Bones
Boulder Roll
*EarthStrike Quake
Mountain Avalanche

Tiger Claw
**Dancing Mongoose
Fountain of Blood
**Raging Mongoose
Sudden Leap

White Raven
Lions Roar
Order Forged From Chaos
White Raven Tactics

* strikes that work with ranged weapons
** boosts that grant extra attacks that work with ranged weapons
*** debatable: only when using a bluckler or shield. It does not specificy if you must be recieving the shields bonus yourself, so with a loose interperetation a bow user could use this with a buckler.
**** Debatable: While you do make a melee touch attack, it does not specify if this is a weapon related attack or not.
***** Broken: Duration is instantanious, but the firesnake moves at 60ft per round? What action is it to control a fire snake? none is indicated. How many firesnakes can one control at once? no limit is specified? What is to stop me from having nigh infinate firesnakes running around? and dealing 6d6 damage to everything in sight (In this case evasion is actually bad because if I deal no damage on a successful reflex save the fire snake can keep passing through your square until you fail a save.) Can a target he stuck by different fire snakes in the same round? if so we are looking at an infinate damage loop. I recommend as a houserul a duration of concentration, IE 1 standard action per round to mantain or a 5 round effect limit (like salamander charge).
*6 partial: while you don't benifit, a melee using ally can.
*7 while using a 1 handed ranged weapon.

Anyone see any errors here? Anyone have any suggestions? Anyone want to make comparisons to other builds? This is one of my first optimization experiments, and i did it just to demonstrate that the warblade can be effective at ranged combat even if he doesn't start with a martial ranged weapon or bonus feats that apply to ranged combat. Plus he not only is a good archer, but he with the diamond mind save buffs he can survive save or dies more easilly than the fighter and if using iron heart surge he can even remove hostile status effects on himself."

Big Grin