Fixing the Bladesinger

[Nightgaun7]

How would you do it? There are at least 3 versions out there, all of which are widely regarded as being problematic at best.

bonus points for new class feature ideas

[Coidzor]

Fullcasting for starters. Or at least 8/10 casting. Less crappy feats for prerequisites...

Not sure how I'd fix the shtick of bladesinging, but I imagine there's some decent homebrew floating around that could serve as inspiration if not outright cribbing.

[Vaz]

Theurge Bardic Music/Arcane Casting

Remove Level Cap Int to AC

Ban it.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Man, why you be hatin'?

It's like everyone's (least) favorite red-headed cousin.

In all seriousness, though, there's a series of Elven Duskblade sub levels that turn a Duskblade into a Bladesinger.

Ah, here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179198).

[Coidzor]

Theurge Bardic Music/Arcane Casting

Remove Level Cap Int to AC

Well, there's a thought.

[Urpriest]

What about the concept isn't already part of various Gish PrCs that already exist? Bladesingers were just early gishes, weren't they? Why does it need different mechanics?

[KillianHawkeye]

Duskblade basically replaced it, elven backstory and all.

[Phelix-Mu]

Duskblade basically replaced it, elven backstory and all.

Er, no. Duskblade has a much better mechanic for wearing armour. Bladesingers less so. But I'm more of a fan of the 2e fluff.

So, what should it have.

- Bonuses to fight with the chosen weapon: Original flavor was basically a school of elves that obsessively trained with a chosen weapon and spells, learning how to wield both in a seamless fighting style. Bonus feats would be good, maybe from a short list. These should definitely include stuff from Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization lines.

- Remove that level cap on Int bonus to AC. That would help front load the class a bit, since right now it's pretty shabby.

- I'd vote for increasing it to 8/10.

- I think the other class features need a slight revamp, too.

- More skill points? Or maybe a bonus to acrobatics skills. The flavor for the class supports this, again with the obsessive training.

[WhatBigTeeth]

I'd say Kensai Magus is exactly what the Bladesinger should be.

EDIT for clarification:

Playable from level 1
Full Int to AC right off the bat
Has class features that actually justify its one-handed fighting style
Increasing Intelligence-based combat abilities
Gains feats to complement its weapon mastery concept, rather than requiring those feats

[Arcanist]

Er, no. Duskblade has a much better mechanic for wearing armour. Bladesingers less so. But I'm more of a fan of the 2e fluff.

So, what should it have.

- Bonuses to fight with the chosen weapon: Original flavor was basically a school of elves that obsessively trained with a chosen weapon and spells, learning how to wield both in a seamless fighting style. Bonus feats would be good, maybe from a short list. These should definitely include stuff from Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization lines.

- Remove that level cap on Int bonus to AC. That would help front load the class a bit, since right now it's pretty shabby.

- I'd vote for increasing it to 8/10.

- I think the other class features need a slight revamp, too.

- More skill points? Or maybe a bonus to acrobatics skills. The flavor for the class supports this, again with the obsessive training.

Agree on the 8/10, making the Skill list a little bit more... adventurous :smallwink:

Bladesinger


http://i.imgur.com/ICs6ZGt.png
Art by Kir-tat (http://kir-tat.deviantart.com/)


Race: Elf or Elf Variant (Excluding Drow)
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Skills: Diplomacy 5, Balance 5, Concentration 8, Knowledge (Arcane) 5, Spellcraft 5
Feats: Weapon Focus [Longsword, Rapier, Longbow (Composite Longbow), or Shortbow (Composite Shortbow)], Arcane Strike
Spells: Able to cast 1st level Arcane Spells
Martial Maneuvers: Must know at least three martial maneuvers from diamond mind, iron heart or white raven disciplines.
Martial Stance: Must know at least on stance from diamond mind, iron heart or white raven disciplines.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Man. Known|Man. Readied|Stances Known|Special|Spellcasting

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|+0|+0|+0|Bladesinger style||

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|+1|+0|+0|Lesser Spell Stance|+1 Existing Arcane Spellcasting Class|

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|+0|+1|+0||+1 Existing Arcane Spellcasting Class|

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+4|+1|+0|+0|Advanced Arcane Strike (Initiate)|+1 Existing Arcane Spellcasting Class|

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+4|+0|+1|+1||+1 Existing Arcane Spellcasting Class|

6th|
+6|
+2|
+5|
+5|+1|+0|+0|Greater Spell Stance|+1 Existing Arcane Spellcasting Class|

7th|
+7|
+2|
+5|
+5|+0|+0|+0||+1 Existing Arcane Spellcasting Class|

8th|
+8|
+2|
+6|
+6|+1|+0|+0|Advanced Arcane Strike (Master)|+1 Existing Arcane Spellcasting Class|

9th|
+9|
+3|
+6|
+6|+0|+1|+0||+1 Existing Arcane Spellcasting Class|

10th|
+10|
+3|
+7|
+7|+1|+0|+0|Spell Fury||[/table]

Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft skills (all taken individually) (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge(arcana) (Int), Knowledge(history) (Int), Martial Lore (Int), Perform(dance) (Cha), Tumble (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis) and Spellcraft (Int).

Spells: When a new Bladesinger level is gained except at 1st level and 10th level, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before she added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit
a character of that class would have gained.

Maneuvers: At each even-numbered level, you gain a new maneuver known from diamond mind, iron heart or white raven disciplines. You must meet a maneuver prerequisite to learn it. You add your full bladesinger levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest level maneuvers known. At every Bladesinger level divisible by three (3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.), you gain a new maneuver readied per day.

Stances known: At 5th level and again every 5 levels thereafter, you gain a new stance known from diamond mind, iron heart or white raven disciplines. You must meet a stance’s prerequisite to learn it.

Bladesong Style (Ex): When wielding a weapon for which you have the weapon focus feat, the Bladesinger gains an Insight bonus equal to your Bladesinger level added to your AC and your Attack rolls. In addition to this, the Bladesinger can cast spells while wearing Light Armor without incuring Arcane Spell Failure.

Lesser Spell Stance (Ex): When wielding a weapon for which you have the weapon focus feat, a bladesinger of 2nd level or higher can add 1/2 of their class level to any skill check to perform a maneuver from the Iron Heart, White Raven or Diamond Mind School.

Advanced Arcane Strike (Ex): When wielding a weapon for which you have the weapon focus feat and using the full attack action, a 4th level bladesinger may apply the effects of Arcane Strike to half of their attacks for that round. At 8th level this allows works for all attacks instead of just half.

Greater Spell Stance (Ex): A bladesinger of 6th level or higher may now add 1/2 their class level to the DC for any Maneuver and Spell, as well as gaining a bonus to any Caster level check.

Spell Fury (Ex): At 10th level the Bladesinger has achieved true mastery of the sublime arts. Whenever the Bladesinger is in a stance the Bladesinger may cast any spell with a level equal to 1/2 of that stances level as a Quickened spell without adjusting its level.

Just some thoughts really... Love 'em, Hate 'em. I think that Maneuvers is a nice, if unnecessary addition. Mod it as if it were your own. Tried to make a peaceful balance between Elven traits, Combat and Spellcasting, but I think I am WAYYYYYY off :smallannoyed:

[DMVerdandi]

I would go a completely different route than where it is right now.

Instead of playing as it has been before, simply make it into the advanced duskblade. Where the duskblade is the PRC that immediately gets you into the style, bladesinger requires pre-requisites, and for this little experiment, I would make them HEAVY, so that they can get heavy returns for them.


Rather than making it elven, simply make it so that elves go towards the class. ones that respect the duskblade class, but want greater access to magical mysteries become Bladesingers.

Also, possibly disallow eldritch knight and Abjurant Champion.

DMV's Bladesinger

Also Known as the Sword-dancer or Rune-Knight, The Bladesinger is one whom bards say, blends the somatic chanting of spellcasting with the art of fighting. It is someone who has seen beyond the schism held by the uneducated, thinking that magic makes the body weak, and might makes the mind crumble.
By taking part in the bladesinger's rite, the initiate leaves those preconceived notions behind.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii252/pollman546/Elsword-2MK.png

Pre-requisites:
FEATS: Smiting Spell, Somatic Weaponry, Martial Weapon proficiency
Skills: Perform 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks,
Must be able to cast 2nd level spells

Skills: 6+INT

Hit Die: D12


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|
Bladesong|

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|
Bladesong|

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|
Bladesong|

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|
Bladesong|

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|
Bladesong|

6th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|
Bladesong|

7th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|
Bladesong|

8th|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6|
Bladesong|

9th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6|
Bladesong|

10th|
+10|
+7|
+7|
+7|
Bladesong|
[/TABLE]

Class Features:

Spellcasting
The Bladesinger progresses in each spellcaster class it previously had upon gaining each level. It does not gain any other class features of the class, only the increase in spellcaster level, spells, bonus spells it may have had and other features directly related to increasing spellcasting.

BLADESONGS
Contrary to it's name, Bladesongs are not actual musical compositions in themselves but attainments gained by increasing one's path down the path of the blade singer. They are the effect of the initial ritual that all bladesingers take.

A bladesinger may take any bladesong available in any order upon leveling up.
Some Bladesongs can by chosen more than once.
Each Bladesong requires the permanent sacrifice of one spell slot, of any level

Bladesongs

Song of the Soldier: The bladesinger gains one bonus feat. The bonus feat must be a fighter feat that the bladesinger presently qualifies for, and through sacrificing a spell slot of any level, the bonus feat can be changed.
This Bladesong can be taken more than once.


Song of the Mage: The Bladesinger gains one bonus feat. The bonus feat must be a Metamagic feat that the bladesinger presently qualifies for, and through sacrificing a spell slot of any level, the bonus feat can be changed.
This Bladesong can be taken more than once

Canto of war
Through sacrificing a spell slot of any level, the blade singer gains a bonus to attack, damage and ac = 1+ spell slot level. This effect lasts for 1 minute x spell slot level.

Weaponeer's Dirge
Through the sacrifice of a spell slot of any level, The bladesinger can increase the enhancement bonus of any weapon he has. The spell level can enhance the magic weapon bonus up to five, but the bladesinger can exchange the enhancement bonus points for weapon special abilities, as long as the total bonus on the weapon does not exceed the spell slot expended.
Weaponeer's Dirge lasts for one minute/Spell slot expended.

Nocturne of enhancement
Choose one metamagic feat.
That feat now only increases the spell level of spells by +1.

Sonata of Swordplay
The Bladesinger can use a standard action to cast any touch spell known and deliver the spell through its weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

It can cast any touch spell known as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target the bladesinger hits in melee combat that round. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round.

Symphony of speed
With the expendature of a spell slot of any level, the bladesinger can enhance it's speed. For a duration of 10 mins/Spell Level, the bladesinger has a speed equal to 10 X spell level spent. For the duration, the bladesinger also gains use of pounce.

Prelude of Omniscience
The Bladesinger becomes a spontaneous caster. He knows all spells on a spell list of any one spellcasting class that it has levels in, and casts those spells as a sorcerer of equal level using the class' spell slots.

March of the Archmage
The Bladesinger can choose one spellcasting class in which it has levels. From now on, that class' spells do not require verbal, somatic, or material components.


Bladesinger's Rite, A ritual each bladesinger takes at it's first level. The ritual empowers the initiate, allowing him to attain the mystical powers of bladesongs, but restricts him from falling from the path. Once the class has begun, it must be completed to level 10. If any class is advanced while the before the bladesinger levels reach 10, the class can no longer be advanced. The abilities gained are retained.

[Vaz]

I can see where the author was going with that, but that's extremely powerful as a class, particularly for a Theurge.

[Phelix-Mu]

I would go a completely different route than where it is right now.

Instead of playing as it has been before, simply make it into the advanced duskblade. Where the duskblade is the PRC that immediately gets you into the style, bladesinger requires pre-requisites, and for this little experiment, I would make them HEAVY, so that they can get heavy returns for them.


Rather than making it elven, simply make it so that elves go towards the class. ones that respect the duskblade class, but want greater access to magical mysteries become Bladesingers.

Also, possibly disallow eldritch knight and Abjurant Champion.

DMV's Bladesinger

Also Known as the Sword-dancer or Rune-Knight, The Bladesinger is one whom bards say, blends the somatic chanting of spellcasting with the art of fighting. It is someone who has seen beyond the schism held by the uneducated, thinking that magic makes the body weak, and might makes the mind crumble.
By taking part in the bladesinger's rite, the initiate leaves those preconceived notions behind.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii252/pollman546/Elsword-2MK.png

Pre-requisites:
FEATS: Smiting Spell, Somatic Weaponry, Martial Weapon proficiency
Skills: Perform 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks,
Must be able to cast 2nd level spells

Skills: 6+INT

Hit Die: D12


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|
Bladesong|

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|
Bladesong|

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|
Bladesong|

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|
Bladesong|

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|
Bladesong|

6th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|
Bladesong|

7th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|
Bladesong|

8th|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6|
Bladesong|

9th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6|
Bladesong|

10th|
+10|
+7|
+7|
+7|
Bladesong|
[/TABLE]

Class Features:

Spellcasting
The Bladesinger progresses in each spellcaster class it previously had upon gaining each level. It does not gain any other class features of the class, only the increase in spellcaster level, spells, bonus spells it may have had and other features directly related to increasing spellcasting.

BLADESONGS
Contrary to it's name, Bladesongs are not actual musical compositions in themselves but attainments gained by increasing one's path down the path of the blade singer. They are the effect of the initial ritual that all bladesingers take.

A bladesinger may take any bladesong available in any order upon leveling up.
Some Bladesongs can by chosen more than once.
Each Bladesong requires the permanent sacrifice of one spell slot, of any level

Bladesongs

Song of the Soldier: The bladesinger gains one bonus feat. The bonus feat must be a fighter feat that the bladesinger presently qualifies for, and through sacrificing a spell slot of any level, the bonus feat can be changed.
This Bladesong can be taken more than once.


Song of the Mage: The Bladesinger gains one bonus feat. The bonus feat must be a Metamagic feat that the bladesinger presently qualifies for, and through sacrificing a spell slot of any level, the bonus feat can be changed.
This Bladesong can be taken more than once

Canto of war
Through sacrificing a spell slot of any level, the blade singer gains a bonus to attack, damage and ac = 1+ spell slot level. This effect lasts for 1 minute x spell slot level.

Weaponeer's Dirge
Through the sacrifice of a spell slot of any level, The bladesinger can increase the enhancement bonus of any weapon he has. The spell level can enhance the magic weapon bonus up to five, but the bladesinger can exchange the enhancement bonus points for weapon special abilities, as long as the total bonus on the weapon does not exceed the spell slot expended.
Weaponeer's Dirge lasts for one minute/Spell slot expended.

Nocturne of enhancement
Choose one metamagic feat.
That feat now only increases the spell level of spells by +1.

Sonata of Swordplay
The Bladesinger can use a standard action to cast any touch spell known and deliver the spell through its weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

It can cast any touch spell known as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target the bladesinger hits in melee combat that round. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round.

Symphony of speed
With the expendature of a spell slot of any level, the bladesinger can enhance it's speed. For a duration of 10 mins/Spell Level, the bladesinger has a speed equal to 10 X spell level spent. For the duration, the bladesinger also gains use of pounce.

Prelude of Omniscience
The Bladesinger becomes a spontaneous caster. He knows all spells on a spell list of any one spellcasting class that it has levels in, and casts those spells as a sorcerer of equal level using the class' spell slots.

March of the Archmage
The Bladesinger can choose one spellcasting class in which it has levels. From now on, that class' spells do not require verbal, somatic, or material components.


Bladesinger's Rite, A ritual each bladesinger takes at it's first level. The ritual empowers the initiate, allowing him to attain the mystical powers of bladesongs, but restricts him from falling from the path. Once the class has begun, it must be completed to level 10. If any class is advanced while the before the bladesinger levels reach 10, the class can no longer be advanced. The abilities gained are retained.

d12 and full BAB and full casting and the bladesongs, and combo with the bevy of spell slots from duskblade is probably too strong. And all good saves?

I would also quibble with the flavor of bladesinger being duskblade ++. The style of bladesinger is mobile front-line casting. The style of duskblade is armoured front-line channeling. While there is significant fluff overlap, the crunch is different enough that I don't feel the two should be conflated.

To wit, tumbling about with mithril full plate on is possible, but weird.

[Person_Man]

My feeling is that the Bladesinger should be more of a Bard PrC, like the Warchanter, but with more of a magical focus. I mean, singing is sorta their thing. Progress Bard Spellcasting and additional Music uses per day, and convert the Bladesinger class abilities into Bardic Music abilities, and fill in the dead levels with Bard-ish bonus Feats. (Song of the White Raven, Doomspeak, Songflake Wardance, etc).

By requiring the class abilities to burn a limited resource (Bardic Music) you can make them more powerful and interesting.

For example:

Bladesong: As an Immediate Action after making a successful melee attack but before rolling damage, you may expend a Bardic Music and make a Perform check. If you succeed, you may replace your normal damage roll (including all bonuses, such as those from Power Attack, magical weapon properties, Sneak Attack, etc) with the result of your Perform check. If the attack was a confirmed critical hit the damage is multiplied, and the target must make a Saving Throw or be Deafened.

Improved Countersong: If an creature that you threaten attempts to cast defensively, you may expend a Bardic Music use and make a Perform check. The result of this check becomes the Concentration check DC that the creature must use to cast defensively successfully.



And so on.

[Norin]

My feeling is that the Bladesinger should be more of a Bard PrC, like the Warchanter, but with more of a magical focus. I mean, singing is sorta their thing.

Not really how i see it. They are not performers like bards, they are more about blending swordplay and arcane magic with moves that mimic dancing and such.

The fluff (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bladesinger) is here. The singing part is not really a performance in song.


Bladesong is so named for several reasons. The first and most obvious is because of the whistling of the blade as it slices through the air when this style of fighting is used. The second is for the haunting, wordless tune many of its practitioners sing as they fight.

Those who practice the bladesong appear as if they are dancing when they fight. Their movements seem misleadingly slow and elegant, deflecting opponents' blades while lazily drifting back to score hits themselves. The technique requires, above all, misdirection and subtlety. The bladesingers do not believe in smashing blows or strong and crushing offense, but rather in guiding their opponents to anticipate a different attack entirely, thus overbalancing the foe and making him seem clumsy.

Also have a look here:

A link to a picture with some fluffy text on it... (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bladesinger?file=Ancient_Lore_on_Bladesingers.jpg)

It's often mistaken for a Bard thing, but it's really more a Gish thing as I see it. Just my opinion based on the fluff though. :smallwink:

[Vaz]

Perhaps some Metamagic style abuse?

Advance Bard for uses per day and bonuses provided of already gained abilities.

Burn usage of Bardic Music as a free action before casting any spell to apply a metamagic feat already known to a spell. For example, burn 3 usages of Bardic Music to heighten a spell 3 levels, or burn 4 for a free quicken.

Or perhaps while Singing Inspire Courage, you can immediately end it, using the morale bonus provided to gain said free metamagic on a spell you cast.

[Shining Wrath]

Class abilities tied to actually singing and dancing, since those are class prerequisites.

Dance of Evasion: As a swift action, you may use the results of a Perform(Dance) check as your AC against melee and ranged attacks for one round.

Dance of Motion: When a Balance check or a Tumble check is called for, you may substitute the results of a Perform(Dance) check. You may only attempt one of the two checks.

Song of Encouragement: As a standard action, you may grant a morale bonus on saving rolls to any creature or creatures of your choice within sound of your voice. The type of save (F, R, W) must be chosen at the time you begin singing. The amount of the bonus is equal to your Perform(Sing) check divided by 5. The affected creatures must be able to hear your voice.

Song of Distraction: As a standard action, you may distract your enemies. Any melee or ranged attack, including touch spells, made against any of your allies (but not made against you), is made at a penalty of -2 unless each enemy first makes a Will save with a DC equal to your Perform(Sing) check. This is a mind-affecting ability and the affected creatures must be able to hear your voice.

[Seharvepernfan]

In all seriousness, though, there's a series of Elven Duskblade sub levels that turn a Duskblade into a Bladesinger.

Ah, here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179198).

I was going to post this. It nails the concept perfectly.