Vow of Poverty for the Rich

[Ruethgar]

Take a page from IRL and make a corporation to have all of your money in. Or, if you have banks in your world, just bank your loot and it becomes the intangible promise of gold without necessarily actually existing as a material possession. Or, give all of your loot to a party member with a contract stating that he must purchase anything you ask of him with said loot up to 90% of the total gained in this manner. Or, give the gold and items to your familiar or animal companion. :smallamused:

I was mostly thinking of using it to personally fund the creation of a place of healing for the sick and wounded on my own demi-plane to fit with the general theme of the feats but hey, w/e works.

[BWR]

Using it exclusively to help people would work for VoP, imo.
The idea, I believe, is to not keep the money for yourself.

'Giving' it away to other people to use on your behalf or to class features is still keeping it.

[AntiTrust]

If you're not charging for this healing you're providing with your cash it sounds like it would fall under the donating it to the needy

As for this bank stuff, I'm not sure sacred vow and divine tax loophole really belong in the same sentence

[Eslin]

I'm not sure sacred vow and divine tax loophole really belong in the same sentence

I think I love you

[Ruethgar]

As for this bank stuff, I'm not sure sacred vow and divine tax loophole really belong in the same sentence

That made me laugh so much.

[Evard]

If you're not charging for this healing you're providing with your cash it sounds like it would fall under the donating it to the needy

As for this bank stuff, I'm not sure sacred vow and divine tax loophole really belong in the same sentence

Coming from a playgrounder named AntiTrust... lol

[Yora]

There is nothing to keep a character from running a non-profit organization, as long as he does not own it or gets a wage paid.

[Douglas]

The Vow explicitly requires you to give your wealth (both previously owned and your fair share of new acquisitions) to charity. Funding the creation of a free hospital for all and sundry qualifies. Giving it to other party members or establishing a trust fund for yourself do not.

[Lazers etcetera]

As for this bank stuff, I'm not sure sacred vow and divine tax loophole really belong in the same sentence

Ha ha ha very well played.

(Ya commie liberal pinko heathen)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d6/Oral_Roberts.jpg/220px-Oral_Roberts.jpg

[Slipperychicken]

There is nothing to keep a character from running a non-profit organization, as long as he does not own it or gets a wage paid.

VoP doesn't say anything about a wage, just material possessions. I posted in an earlier thread that you could just keep the cash in a bank (since a bank account isn't a material possession). And get your privately-owned organization charity status so you can invest directly.

Also, you pay a servant to use all your organization's magic items on you, on command.

[dascarletm]

Isn't finding loopholes within rules like this why the Devils became evil?

[Flickerdart]

Trying to weasel out of the Vow is not Exalted, you fall.

[Slipperychicken]

Isn't finding loopholes within rules like this why the Devils became evil?

It had a lot more to do with needing to pervert souls into more Devils, because Team Law stopped giving Asmodeus the reinforcements he needed to fight the Blood War.

[dascarletm]

Lawful Evil: Characters of this alignment see a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and show a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while they usually obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and are not averse to twisting the rules to work in their favor.

I think Flickerdart hit it right on the head.

[SaintRidley]

Using your wealth to establish a charitable organization and using the leftover wealth (as well as your fair share of future party acquisitions) to set up investments for the organization to live off (and thus be fully able to provide its services free of charge) is in line with the vow.

Sticking your money in the bank is not. Giving it to another member of your party is not. Giving it to anybody and attaching conditions (particularly conditions where their use must be favorable to you) is not.

[JackRackham]

I agree with several of the people here. Loopholes and Complete Divine do not mix.

[Fyermind]

You can create an organization that does exalted things and donate your money to it. You still cannot use magic items even if they aren't yours however, so no luck there.

You will still suffer from being a weak player due to your lack of magic items, but you can invest your otherwise useless wealth in an organization you run that does things in line with your alignment. Of course, if you try to twist it back to personal gain (not the gain of the masses) you lose your exalted status even if you don't otherwise violate vow of poverty.

VoP is probably the only feat that has properly managed drawbacks. Trying to get around it's drawback immediately loses you the feat.

[GolemsVoice]

VoP doesn't say anything about a wage, just material possessions. I posted in an earlier thread that you could just keep the cash in a bank (since a bank account isn't a material possession).

You still posess the money in the bank. As a DM, I wouldn't mind a VoP player who invested all his money into a charitable organization, but I wouldn't allow some bank-account weirdness just to get around the restrictions.

[Waker]

And here I thought this was a thread devoted to coming up with a new feat, Vow of Avarice or something.

[Flickerdart]

And here I thought this was a thread devoted to coming up with a new feat, Vow of Avarice or something.
That would be pretty simple to do, actually.

Vow of Greed [Vile]
Taking after the greediest of dragons, you have furnished yourself with a hoard of legendary proportions and engaged in ostentatious displays of your wealth. This act has given you great powers, but your avarice is such that you may never use or give up your wealth.
Benefit: You gain the benefits of Voluntary Poverty, except that all sacred bonuses are instead profane, and you must choose [Vile] feats instead of [Exalted] ones.
Special: To retain your power, you must collect all of your personal wealth in your hoard, with the following exceptions: you may carry and use weapons so long as they are masterwork. You may wear only the finest of clothes. You may carry and use a spell component pouch, spellbook, or other focus for casting spells. You may wear ostentatious jewellery and other such accessories, provided they are nonmagical. You may not use magic items of any sort - any money put into purchasing magic items is money not going into improving your hoard, and that is inadmissible. You can benefit from magic items used on your behalf, but you may not "borrow" these items unless you immediately put them in the hoard and refuse to give them back. You may not cast spells from wands, staves, or scrolls, drink potions, or use any other consumable items, because you might need them later.
If you break your vow, you lose the feat are compelled to surrender all of the wealth you have hoarded, and may not atone until you have amassed a hoard of equal size to what you had before you lost the feat.

[dascarletm]

If only there were more good vile feats...

[Flickerdart]

Hey, at least they're way more useful than Exalted feats. You can get double damage on a charge, claw and bite attacks, extra reach, blindsense, rebuke vermin and spit poison.

[dascarletm]

Hey, at least they're way more useful than Exalted feats. You can get double damage on a charge, claw and bite attacks, extra reach, blindsense, rebuke vermin and spit poison.

But only if you look like a freak! My vanity cannot withstand it!:smallfrown:

[Flickerdart]

Which is why you go around causing grievous bodily harm to innocent people - because you want to be normal, and intend to do so by making everyone a maimed freak like you. BAM, roleplaying.

[Slipperychicken]

You still posess the money in the bank. As a DM, I wouldn't mind a VoP player who invested all his money into a charitable organization, but I wouldn't allow some bank-account weirdness just to get around the restrictions.

Or just have a bank (or your personal organization) qualify as charitable, and employ a lackey or two to use your magic items on you.

[SaintRidley]

Or just have a bank (or your personal organization) qualify as charitable, and employ a lackey or two to use your magic items on you.

Putting money into anything and then ordering others to use it to benefit you is still breaking the vow.

[kardar233]

I like Flickerdart's Vow, but I'd probably refluff it. Less dragon-like hoarding of everything, more spending all your ill-gotten gains on frivolous things. Vow of Extravagance, more like.

[Spuddles]

The vow acts like an economist with perfect information- if you have wealth greater than what the vow allows, you lose the benefits of your vow.

You can attempt to evade all you like- you still have wealth. Tax evasion is after all misreporting your wealth. That's the whole point. While the IRS may not know how much wealth you have, you still have wealth?

If you have wealth, you lose your vow. QED.

[Need_A_Life]

If only there were more good vile feats...
Immunity to Mind-Affecting, extra damage, bonuses to Intimidate, DR/-, reach and having mindless undead ignore you isn't good enough? How about automatically confirming crits against Favoured Enemies?

I wholeheartedly approve of Vow of Greed, though the idea of either outfitting an evil organisation or just squandering every penny of it on booze, whores and other luxuries also seem appropriate.
Related (http://www.explosm.net/comics/487/)

[nedz]

"I spent half my money on Wine, Women and Songs. I just wasted the rest" — George Best.

I kind of like this idea.

[Emperor Tippy]

The Vow explicitly requires you to give your wealth (both previously owned and your fair share of new acquisitions) to charity. Funding the creation of a free hospital for all and sundry qualifies. Giving it to other party members or establishing a trust fund for yourself do not.

Sure it does, once the party sets up the "End evil threats and save innocents by adventuring charity". It employs a party of adventurers to go out and end evil threats and save innocents by adventuring.

Be extra careful to ensure that the Rogue is in-charge of administering the charity and that the VoP character isn't allowed to look at the books.

[Ruethgar]

Along the same lines of VoP loopholes, give your items to your familiar or demand he have a share of loot.

[Flickerdart]

Along the same lines of VoP loopholes, give your items to your familiar or demand he have a share of loot.
You can demand whatever you want, but your DM isn't obligated to keep your familiar at WBL. The other party members would have to pay the familiar from their own resources.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm pretty sure that VoP allows you to create your own megachurch, put all your wealth into it, and then live off the support of the megachurch and the adoration of your congregation. You just have to take levels in Evangelist.

[buttcyst]

I had a general question about this feat I was going to start a new thread for, but it might apply here. If a PC has the craft weaponsmithing skill, eventually they will be able to make masterwork weapons on their own accord, if that PC has vow of poverty, can they use the weapons they create?


I also have input, VoP states that the character with the vow can carry his portion of treasure around as long as they donate it at the earliest possible time. otherwise, they can choose to take no part in any treasure. As a DM, one of my PC's had the vow and went with the "no treasure for me" option, so I included items for him in the treasure such as a new bowl, or new cup, maybe a new crude belt, etc.... any funky banking system or attempt to gain use of treasure or magic items would be a violation of the vow and require the year and a day atonement.

[Flickerdart]

I had a general question about this feat I was going to start a new thread for, but it might apply here. If a PC has the craft weaponsmithing skill, eventually they will be able to make masterwork weapons on their own accord, if that PC has vow of poverty, can they use the weapons they create?
No. VoP doesn't care how you acquire items.

[TypoNinja]

I'm pretty sure that VoP allows you to create your own megachurch, put all your wealth into it, and then live off the support of the megachurch and the adoration of your congregation. You just have to take levels in Evangelist.

I'm.... not entirely sure you should have used blue text there.

Regardless, you can't loophole VoP, its not some random trained power like improved grapple. You took a sacred Oath, to your Deity or some other Celestial Power, who has granted you power in return. You are an Exalted Good character, trying to exploit the wording of your Oath will just have the entity granting you the power decide to revoke it.

Even Chaotic Good is not going to approve of lying to your God, to whom you have sworn an Oath. Lawful Good would be outright insulted that you'd even suggest looking for loopholes.

Even if you did manage to find a loophole, and somehow your God decided not to revoke your powers for violating the spirit of your oath, an Exalted Good character wouldn't want to abuse a loophole.

[PlusSixPelican]

Even Chaotic Good is not going to approve of lying to your God, to whom you have sworn an Oath. Lawful Good would be outright insulted that you'd even suggest looking for loopholes.

I don't think Chaotic Good is cool with people lying for entirely selfish reasons. Lying, in the Chaotic Good context, is used as a means for the greater good, not cheating your way into ascetic superpowers.

I'm pretty sure you go to Hell for trying to contract lawyer your own religion. Founding a megachurch and living off it is also rather disingenuous, especially with the idea of asceticism being giving up resources, not allocating them differently. This is why some people frown on donations being tax exempt.

[Steward]

I think if your DM will let actually let you do this in a real game, why would you stop here? Why not just ask for every feat in the game at first level, with all of the requirements waived?

[Ruethgar]

I think if your DM will let actually let you do this in a real game, why would you stop here? Why not just ask for every feat in the game at first level, with all of the requirements waived?

Chaos Shuffled elf wizard 1 fighter 19 with VoP is about as close as I can come to that with 7 feats of your choice at level 1. Homebrew flaws with MSRD mutation twisting can get it up to about 10 feats. Either way, expensive as all sin and gets a devil or two after you, but 7 or 10 feats plus one every level and 2 at level 2 is all worth it.

Have an animal totem sort of god and it wouldn't be that out of line to demand tithes to your familiar cat from the party, since he would to you be a blessing from and a divine incarnation of your god.

Also, it does not specify what level of god can grant VoP oath powers, a quick peak into Spells and Spellcraft and you have some rules for minor gods, which you can be at level 6 and grant yourself the exalted feats. It just requires you get 100 followers which is a bit much to call on at that level but w/e.

[Flickerdart]

Also, it does not specify what level of god can grant VoP oath powers, a quick peak into Spells and Spellcraft and you have some rules for minor gods, which you can be at level 6 and grant yourself the exalted feats. It just requires you get 100 followers which is a bit much to call on at that level but w/e.
And this is why nobody takes 3rd party stuff seriously.

[Gnaeus]

Any god who is legally minded enough to let people get loopholes on their Vow of Poverty is also going to have his own law code and dozens of outsider lawyers to argue it. He isn't just going to say "Oh! you gave your money away and now someone else spends it for you? You're so smart!" It will be more like "Your non-profit is not duly registered under the laws of Celestia, Vow of Poverty code section VI.C.3.a.ii. Fall."

[Steward]

Any god who is legally minded enough to let people get loopholes on their Vow of Poverty is also going to have his own law code and dozens of outsider lawyers to argue it. He isn't just going to say "Oh! you gave your money away and now someone else spends it for you? You're so smart!" It will be more like "Your non-profit is not duly registered under the laws of Celestia, Vow of Poverty code section VI.C.3.a.ii. Fall."

Yeah, that was my point. If your DM will let you do something obviously abusive like that (take the benefit of Vow of Poverty without actually having to put up with the drawbacks of it simply by putting your money in a bank account or declaring your familiar a deity), then you should just ask them for anything you want. A Deck of Many Things with all of the bad cards removed, that lets you pick which card is at the top of the deck as a free action. Your choice of any 25 feats at first level, all requirements waived.

[Cirrylius]

As for this bank stuff, I'm not sure sacred vow and divine tax loophole really belong in the same sentence

Which is why you go around causing grievous bodily harm to innocent people - because you want to be normal, and intend to do so by making everyone a maimed freak like you. BAM, roleplaying.
Sigbait:smallbiggrin:

[Menzath]

Haha, make a Vow of Vanity, like VoP but you can only use item/potions/scrolls/etc if they give a Cha bonus, help you look even more ostentatious, or effect your looks(yours or your clothing) in some positive manner. Oh and the stat boosts, the first one always has to go to Cha.

Because let's face it, looks matter. All else is #10 on your list of needs...or lower.

[Ruethgar]

With Vow of Vanity, in order to make it a bit less of a sorcerer's dream, use the BoEF Appearance ability score with charisma having to be the secondary.

[TuggyNE]

Because let's face it, looks matter. All else is #10 on your list of needs...or lower.

Cloak of Charisma: Because you deserve it.

[elonin]

That vow of Greed sounds more like the flaw "hoarding".

[Flickerdart]

That vow of Greed sounds more like the flaw "hoarding".
Not one of those dandwiki flaws written and edited by an epileptic monkey, is it?

[TuggyNE]

Not one of those dandwiki flaws written and edited by an epileptic monkey, is it?

Is there any other kind? That's why we love it so!

[Spuddles]

Sure it does, once the party sets up the "End evil threats and save innocents by adventuring charity". It employs a party of adventurers to go out and end evil threats and save innocents by adventuring.

Be extra careful to ensure that the Rogue is in-charge of administering the charity and that the VoP character isn't allowed to look at the books.

We've got a VoP character doing that in a game right now. None of us can really stomach watching so much coin go to orphans and crap.


And this is why nobody takes 3rd party stuff seriously.

And "can I munchkin my vow of poverty" is why no one in the roleplaying community takes D&D seriously.

[Flickerdart]

And "can I munchkin my vow of poverty" is why no one in the roleplaying community takes D&D seriously.
I'm reasonably certain that both by market share and by demographics, D&D is the roleplaying community.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm reasonably certain that both by market share and by demographics, D&D is the roleplaying community.

Wikipedia appears to agree.



From Wikipedia

Market research conducted at Wizards of the Coast in 1999-2000 indicated that more than 1.5 million people played D&D on a monthly basis, and about 2 million people played all tabletop RPGs combined on a monthly basis. The success of the 3rd Edition of Dungeons & Dragons likely resulted in an increase in those totals.[citation needed] These figures for play are substantially larger than the figures for sales.

The rest of the sources I've seen suggest the same. D&D and Pathfinder constitute at least half of the rpg market, which isn't counting all the freeloaders, pirates, and people who use open source (who play D&D and PF but don't pay much for it). Those probably put the total number around 70-80% or so, which agrees with my personal experience.

[TypoNinja]

Wikipedia appears to agree.



The rest of the sources I've seen suggest the same. D&D and Pathfinder constitute at least half of the rpg market, which isn't counting all the freeloaders, pirates, and people who use open source (who play D&D and PF but don't pay much for it). Those probably put the total number around 70-80% or so, which agrees with my personal experience.

D&D is a gateway drug. After D&D I started WoD, Battle Tech/Mechwarrior, and Shadow Run.

In all seriousness though, I'd be interested in stats on people who don't play D&D but do use other systems, I wonder what kind of overlap were looking at. I suspect D&D helps the sales of other games systems. People start with D&D because it has the most brand recognition, and then when they discover that pen and paper tabletop games are fun, they try others.