Social/Likeable Character without Charisma?

[Gwazi Magnum]

I am currently working on a character whose dump stats are strength and charisma.

Now, my current concept is a Gestalt Barbarian/Unarmed Swordsage

So there is no need for charisma at all for functionality.

But I don't want my low charisma to mean my character is now seen as unlikeable, repulsive, unattractive etc.

He is not meant to be the face of the party though.

Is there a way a character can be set up like this while still having a low charisma?

Note: I relise a DM could say charisma doesn't count for ______ and that ends that. But I'm curious as to if mechanic wise there are ways for your character to be able, attractive, funny etc with a low Charisma score.

[Flickerdart]

Charisma can mean you're unattractive and unlikable but it doesn't have to. Just as it's reasonably simple to appear more intelligent and wise than you actually are, it should pose no difficulty for a character who likely has Wisdom to spare to perform competently in a social setting. You won't win any medals for persuasiveness, but you have the mechanical justification to act like you're not an uncouth savage.

[AWiz_Abroad]

Factotum

1/day add INT mod to each skill. This includes diplomacy and bluff.

Not exactly synergistic, but is another option if you don't want high CHA.

[Darius Kane]

No. You either dump Cha or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

OTOH, maybe if you invest in social skills you might play it off as someone unlikable who tries very hard to be likable by taking lessons.

[the_david]

Yes, you can have a low charisma and still be likeable and attractive. You'd have to act a bit introverted though, which might be a problem for a Barbarian.

[nedz]

I'm not sure if your character is the right build for this, but with lots of skill points you could dump Cha and pump diplomacy. Its sub-optimal, but by high level you might not notice.

[Lazers etcetera]

No. That's what you get for dumping charisma. He's unlikeable and probably unattractive.

[BWR]

You can be likable and sociable and have low Charisma: that's what skills like Diplomacy are for. Ability scores show natural aptitude, what you get without having to apply yourself, while everything else is practise.
You can also be sociable but a bit annoying, like the friend who's always a bit too loud or a bit abrasive, or a bit too quiet and shy. They're still sociable, they are still likable enough that they are friends, but also have some slightly annoying qualities.

[Kaeso]

Yes, you can have a low charisma and still be likeable and attractive. You'd have to act a bit introverted though, which might be a problem for a Barbarian.

Split personality? The gentle, kind hearted, soft spoken man that transforms into a raging machine of death and destruction once you rub him the wrong way? Neither of his "personalities" could be classified as high cha.

[dascarletm]

psst (The characters looks are all up to your imagination) If you draw, commission or steal a picture on the internet of a barbarian that looks fine looking, and show that as your character, that is what everyone will think of.

Unlikeable? Well, let's see...

Suppose an NPC starts Indifferent towards you. To drop a level towards unfriendly you need 0 or lower diplomacy. Assuming point buy and human, you need to roll a 1. 5% of the time you are unlikeable. To go to friendly you need a 15 or a roll of 16 or better. 25% of the time you are charming enough for them to like you. This is assuming no ranks in diplomacy.

Put some in there, or be a half-elf and it goes up. You probably arn't going to be getting people fanatical, or even helpful most/all of the time, but unlikeable? naw.

[Guyver87]

I agree with BWR and Kaeso.

It all can be solved with a little roleplaying.

For example this character can be a bit tactless, and a little lost about that whole "subtlety" thing.

Or a little naive, and too trusting, leaving him open to manipulation.

Boisterous bruiser with no indoor voice, who thinks that diplomacy is for weaklings is an option too.

So, really it all depends on how You want to play Your character.

[Amnestic]

PHB:

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness,
personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This
ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one
is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important
for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics,
since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a
Charisma score.

You could quite easily play a likeable, attractive (though perhaps a bit plain) character with low charisma. They'll be likeable, but not much of a leader. They won't draw a posse of followers or a group of admirers.

Consider villains who might not be particularly likeable or attractive, but still draw hundreds upon hundreds of fanatic followers - a representation of charisma in one area, but not another.

[Devils_Advocate]

Yeah, you can reliably improve the attitudes of indifferent and unfriendly characters by taking 10 on Diplomacy checks so long as you have a Diplomacy modifier of +5 or higher, which isn't all that hard to get. And if you just don't want your character to be any more unlikable than most people, that's even simpler. A single synergy bonus or just favorable circumstances is enough to counteract a -2 penalty, bringing someone with a Charisma score of 6 up to par with an untrained Cha 10 individual.

[Arc_knight25]

In a 2nd Ed book there is a comliness roll. I belive it was a 1d12. Use it as a starting point maybe. I personally enjoy the random rolls when creating a character.

[Person_Man]

Your Charisma score does not determine how social, likable, articulate, or attractive your character is. D&D is a game of derived statistics. Your attributes do not determine who you are, they simply modify your ability to accomplish what you want to do.

Your ability to communicate is determined by your Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff Skills. Your Charisma modifies those Skills, but it is only one of many factors that determines their results. A character with 20 Charisma and no ranks in Diplomacy/Int/Bluff is worse at communicating then a character with 3 Charisma and 10 ranks in each Skill. (And Skills in general are quite easy to boost. I'm sure we could get you a +20 modifier to each by mid levels for a modest investment).

The appearance/attractiveness of your character is pure fluff, and can be anything you want it to be within the boundaries of your chosen race.

[Dust]

Consider villains who might not be particularly likeable or attractive, but still draw hundreds upon hundreds of fanatic followers - a representation of charisma in one area, but not another.

Like a moth.....TO A FLAAAAAAAAAAAAAME! Ah-hahahahhaha! AH-HA HAH HAH HAAAAAAAAH!!

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/7236/themonarch.png

[cosmicAstrogazr]

Split personality? The gentle, kind hearted, soft spoken man that transforms into a raging machine of death and destruction once you rub him the wrong way? Neither of his "personalities" could be classified as high cha.

Hmmm... Methinks you just described one Dr. Bruce Banner. :smallamused:

[Lazers etcetera]

Your Charisma score does not determine how social, likable, articulate, or attractive your character is. D&D is a game of derived statistics. Your attributes do not determine who you are, they simply modify your ability to accomplish what you want to do.

Your ability to communicate is determined by your Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff Skills. Your Charisma modifies those Skills, but it is only one of many factors that determines their results.

I find this hard to buy. It is an ability stat, like how strength determines how capable you are at lifting objects.

Nobody ever tries to 'roleplay' a character with low dexterity having the ability to dodge and dance, and rightly so, but people always try to get away with it for charisma. In real life, in a non-combat situation, nobody ever (purposefully) dumps cha because real people know how vital it is.

Dumping Cha should have in-game penalties. Saying 'Your Charisma score does not determine how social, likable, articulate, or attractive your character is' - well, what's the point then (aside from a casting stat for bards etc)?

Adventuring parties are often composed of PCs made with point-buy and you can get this a lot. The heroic adventurer party (sans sorcerer or paladin) who is famous the continent over for saving cities against demonic hordes have all got lower charisma than an average commoner, because optimization and because of the attitude that cha does not matter because you are still good-looking, erudite, charming and stylish even with an 8 cha.

I'm not buying it. And my PCs when I DM are aware of this.

[Amnestic]

Nobody ever tries to 'roleplay' a character with low dexterity having the ability to dodge and dance, and rightly so, but people always try to get away with it for charisma.

I would argue that's because Dexterity is tied intimately into both AC (dodging, though not a Dodge bonus!) and Reflex saves. You could make a low-Dex character who's good at dodging by optimising your Tumble skill though. Just as you could make a low Int character who's still knowledgeable. I myself have done a Dragonfire Adept with an Int of 10 but due to his Invocations and other buffs, had far greater knowledge abilities for his level than a Wizard who simply invested skill ranks+int bonus in it. He was an exceedingly knowledgeable character who had middle-of-the-road intelligence. Was that wrong? I don't think so.

You can make a character who is likeable (high diplomacy/bluff) with low charisma. You can make a character who is good at dodging (Tumble) with low Dex, and a character with good knowledge with low Intelligence.

What it represents is someone who might not naturally be terribly good in any of these areas but worked hard to improve them and, as an end result, may be superior to those who were naturally talented but didn't invest any further training in it.

[Tanklin]

But I don't want my low charisma to mean my character is now seen as unlikeable, repulsive, unattractive etc.


Our DM give us a new stat: APP (appearance) just rolling 3d6 for that.
He give us the chance to declare our appearance, or just roll it.

a character with high app and low cha, is a beatiful person, but usually shy, or introvert.

a character with low app and high cha, is someone really really good with words and corporal language.

[Telonius]

High likability, low Charisma: a guy who's great to have a beer with, but can't convince anybody of anything and can't negotiate his way out of a paper bag. Nice but un-noticed. Maybe lacking confidence. Maybe a great person who's a social phobic. Maybe somebody who's just a really good listener but a terrible speaker.

IMO, Charisma is all about how capable you are of influencing the thoughts and attitudes of the people around you. If you have low charisma, you aren't as good at doing that. It can overlap with parts of likability, but it's not exactly the same thing.

[dascarletm]

I find this hard to buy. It is an ability stat, like how strength determines how capable you are at lifting objects.

Nobody ever tries to 'roleplay' a character with low dexterity having the ability to dodge and dance, and rightly so, but people always try to get away with it for charisma. In real life, in a non-combat situation, nobody ever (purposefully) dumps cha because real people know how vital it is.

Dumping Cha should have in-game penalties. Saying 'Your Charisma score does not determine how social, likable, articulate, or attractive your character is' - well, what's the point then (aside from a casting stat for bards etc)?

Adventuring parties are often composed of PCs made with point-buy and you can get this a lot. The heroic adventurer party (sans sorcerer or paladin) who is famous the continent over for saving cities against demonic hordes have all got lower charisma than an average commoner, because optimization and because of the attitude that cha does not matter because you are still good-looking, erudite, charming and stylish even with an 8 cha.

I'm not buying it. And my PCs when I DM are aware of this.

A rogue with +6 to base Ref save, but -1 or 2 because of dex is still better than the average person (a commoner) at dodging fireballs. If he has the dodge feat is is just as good in any armor he wears as well.

Adventurers are a cut above the rest of the world, because they can do things even if they aren't innately gifted at the subject. (Ability scores)

If you used that one method where you roll each stat in order, and you get a low cha. If you put points into it your character may naturally be not very persuasive, but would still be more persuasive then the common folk, maybe you even have persuasive the feat:smallwink:

[meemaas]

Mechanically, you could always crib the Inquisitor from Pathfinder. Dump Charisma, pump Wisdom, take one of the inquisitions that lets you use wisdom to your face skills instead of Charisma. Tada, you're sociable, good at it, but otherwise uncharismatic.

[Ashtagon]

Low Charisma doesn't mean unlikeable. It means no social presence. (Margaret Thatcher was highly unpopular in many circles, but no one can seriously question her Charisma).

Except maybe by buying the +skill point feats, there's no real way of getting a sociable character who has dumped Charisma. Similarly, you're not going to ever get a really muscular character who has dumped Strength

[Fyermind]

Low charisma means you aren't very convincing or are generally naive or unskilled in social settings. This doesn't mean you can't possess a bumbling charm, but you aren't suave.

Looks are, as always, unrelated to your ability scores and defined by your race and imagination.

You won't be charming anyone into doing what you want because you asked them to, but you may be able to get some help from strangers just by being direct and clearly in need of assistance. You don't have to be impolite just because you have a low charisma score, but you can't be drawing people in and making them cling to your every word. Talking to individuals is fairly easy even with low charisma scores (I can attest to this IRL) but winning over crowds is strictly the purview of high charisma characters.

[Lazers etcetera]

They should bring back the Comeliness stat.

Always max that.

[Devils_Advocate]

I find this hard to buy. It is an ability stat, like how strength determines how capable you are at lifting objects.
So, do you ignore how Size categories modify carrying capacity as well as nearly everything else related to Strength? :smallconfused:


Nobody ever tries to 'roleplay' a character with low dexterity having the ability to dodge and dance
And do you ignore how Reflex saves go up with level as well? :smallconfused:


In real life, in a non-combat situation, nobody ever (purposefully) dumps cha because real people know how vital it is.
... In real life, people do not "dump" "stats" because there are no "stats" to "dump". On account of how real life is real life, not a roleplaying game?


Dumping Cha should have in-game penalties. Saying 'Your Charisma score does not determine how social, likable, articulate, or attractive your character is' - well, what's the point then (aside from a casting stat for bards etc)?
You're asking what the point of Charisma is, other than all of the things that Charisma does? O_O

Have you ever looked at the Ability scores in the "NPC statistics" section of the DMG (starting on p. 110)? Dumping Cha is how characters without any Charisma-related class features are intended to be built.

The Ability scores just do not measure the things that they are said to measure if you use the actual rules for all of the specific things that Ability scores are used for. They're pretty much a relic that stopped making sense in 3rd Edition, if they ever really made sense. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7855370#post7855370)

How the Ability scores actually work, in almost all of the rules they're used in, is that they give you bonuses to the things that they're claimed in their descriptions to represent. But the larger bonuses to these things -- skill ranks, base saves, BAB, etc. -- derive from class and level. Armor Class is a weird exception that's designed to receive multiple bonuses from items instead, for some reason.


The heroic adventurer party (sans sorcerer or paladin) who is famous the continent over for saving cities against demonic hordes have all got lower charisma than an average commoner
Because the typical adventuring party doesn't accomplish their exceptional deeds through exceptional diplomacy. They didn't defeat the demonic hordes through negotiation.

Not that there's anything wrong with a non-standard party that makes use of superhuman negotiation as well as superhuman combat prowess.

[OverdrivePrime]

The way I play, Charisma is your raw force of personality, with a touch of your appearance rolled in.

I generally assume that none of my player's characters are hideous-looking unless they go out of their way to say so. It's a fantasy game. Most people I know fantasize about making whatever they do look good.

As far as your character being likable and social, charisma doesn't actually have a lot to do with that. People generally like you for what you do and the value you add to their lives. If your character is good to others, supports his friends and buys people a drink now and again (Wisdom!), the people around him will generally be well disposed toward him.

What a dumped charisma means (and shame on you for dumping charisma!) is that you are inherently bad at getting your point across and getting people to do what you want them to. You'll be liked, but your friends will probably roll their eyes when you trip over your tongue trying to convince the unimpressed barmaid to go to the market with you. "There goes good ol' Gorbash again - the guy can't string three coherent sentences together when it counts!"

You'll be seen as a likable knucklehead and a poor communicator.

[nedz]

I find this hard to buy. It is an ability stat, like how strength determines how capable you are at lifting objects.

Nobody ever tries to 'roleplay' a character with low dexterity having the ability to dodge and dance, and rightly so, but people always try to get away with it for charisma. In real life, in a non-combat situation, nobody ever (purposefully) dumps cha because real people know how vital it is.

Dumping Cha should have in-game penalties. Saying 'Your Charisma score does not determine how social, likable, articulate, or attractive your character is' - well, what's the point then (aside from a casting stat for bards etc)?

Adventuring parties are often composed of PCs made with point-buy and you can get this a lot. The heroic adventurer party (sans sorcerer or paladin) who is famous the continent over for saving cities against demonic hordes have all got lower charisma than an average commoner, because optimization and because of the attitude that cha does not matter because you are still good-looking, erudite, charming and stylish even with an 8 cha.

I'm not buying it. And my PCs when I DM are aware of this.

In principle you are entirely right here — but that's not how the rules work.
Maybe it should be harder to pump skill points into skills whose linked stat is low, but it isn't.

At low levels stats are important; but by mid level, at least in terms of skills, they are unimportant.

[Flickerdart]

Similarly, you're not going to ever get a really muscular character who has dumped Strength
Not at all. A lot of bodybuilders who focus on having pretty-looking muscles are actually not as strong as you'd expect, and on the flip side, it's very easy to conceal serious muscles under layers of fat.

[Gwazi Magnum]

So generally what I'm understanding is that Charisma doesn't affect appearance or likability. But it does effect how well I word things, can negotiate and flirt.

Now, my character concept is Monk based (Going unarmed, before some starts hating on Monk note that non-core classes aren't allowed), so I can't afford to keep Charisma high.

But I would like him to be humorous/funny and capable of stuff like picking up barmaids and some other girls for example.

Note: He will not make a big habit out of it, he's not some sort of player who flirts with every girl he sees, but when he does flirt I want him to at least be decent or pretty good at it.

What kind of skills could I invest in these sort of things?

I was thinking...

1. Perform (Comedy): For the humor, but I just want him to be naturally witty/funny (In NPC eyes, not player eyes) not necessarily be a good stand up comedian so I'm not sure how well this would work.

2. Diplomacy/Bluff?: This is more for the flirt & sweet talk aspect, I'm really not sure what to do. My guy won't be dishonest much, he's not lying to girls to get in bed with them. But flirting is still sweet talk so I'm not sure if it falls more under bluff or diplomacy.

Note: Character concept wise he's Neutral Neutral, I'm making his basic concept sort of like how I am in real life. But making more laid back and relaxed about some things, and less caring/moralistic in other things without coming off as a ****.

For example, in real life if I'm telling a girl I think their beautiful, I mean it. I ain't just saying it for the hell of it. My character will be generally the same, but he doesn't have as much values/morals as I try to live up to, and he's more carefree, so sometimes he may give him to his more selfish side and lie a bit, but will generally be pretty honest in what he's saying.

[Duke of Urrel]

I believe a monk with low Charisma can nonetheless be very attractive, especially in terms of physique. Low Charisma can also mean shyness and awkwardness around women and being "a man of few words."

I personally consider the physical side of beauty to be less a function of Charisma and more a function of youth and Constitution, particularly of a Constitution score that is above average for one's own race (that is, doesn't count any racial bonus or penalty). In other words, I don't consider dwarves to be physically beautiful because of their Constitution bonus or elves to be physically ugly because of their Constitution penalty, but anybody of any race whose Constitution is above average for that race is physically good-looking.

I would expect a young male monk with a high Constitution and low Charisma to have no trouble attracting women, but he might be shy around them and wait for them to ask him out, rather than the other way round. Considering the light, body-shape-revealing clothing that monks wear, he may not have to wait long... And of course, if he's really a kind soul, and if this becomes clear once you get past his shyness and social awkwardness and get to know him well, a woman could easily fall completely in love with him.

If you want your character to be a performer, I'd suggest using Tumble skill to make a living as a circus acrobat. I believe physical humor should come more easily to a person with low Charisma than verbal humor that requires clever word choice and fast talking.

[Telonius]

Not at all. A lot of bodybuilders who focus on having pretty-looking muscles are actually not as strong as you'd expect, and on the flip side, it's very easy to conceal serious muscles under layers of fat.

I've heard a few serious weightlifters throw this phrase around: "Looks like Tarzan, strong as Jane."

[Gwazi Magnum]

I personally consider the physical side beauty to be less a function of Charisma and more a function of youth and Constitution, particularly of a Constitution score that is above average for one's own race (that is, doesn't count any racial bonus or penalty). In other words, I don't consider dwarves to be physically beautiful because of their Constitution bonus or elves to be physically ugly because of their Constitution penalty, but anybody of any race whose Constitution is above average for that race is physically good-looking.

I like this perspective a lot.

Largely because it addresses physical attractiveness related to fitness/health without pointed right to Strength.

In all seriousness, if strength made people attractive then these would people would be seen as god damn gorgeous...

http://www.thescrib.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/steroid1.bmp


But he might be shy around them and wait for them to ask him out, rather than the other way round.

Sounds like me, and with the character sort of reflecting I think he'll be a bit like this. But my hope is to have a character be more, take charge in that sort of field than I am in real life.

Just from an RP perspective, I'm fine with how I do things in real life at the moment.


If you want your character to be a performer, I'd suggest using Tumble skill to make a living as a circus acrobat. I believe physical humor should come more easily to a person with low Charisma than verbal humor that requires clever word choice and fast talking.

I mean naturally funny, like he could say a few jokes or have some funny one-liners that makes a crowd laugh, but he's not necessarily someone who could go on stage and perform a skit.

As for Tumble, I'm already maxing that for monk purposes so I should be able to perform some physical humour, but it's not how I really want his main humour to work.

[Lazers etcetera]

I'm with the Duke of Uriel's suggestion of taking tumble, being a bit slapstick. Being naturally funny, having bon mots and one-liners is pretty much a staple of someone with high charisma (in most cases. Joe Stalin was not a barrel of laughs).

But this is d&d. If I was DM I would make you have ranks in perform comedy to compensate if your character was dumping cha, and I'd judge the quality of the chracter's jokes on your jokes at the table.

[Razanir]

Split personality? The gentle, kind hearted, soft spoken man that transforms into a raging machine of death and destruction once you rub him the wrong way? Neither of his "personalities" could be classified as high cha.

This might not require a split personality. Would it be reasonable to have a shy, introverted character that has an incredibly short fuse?

[Kaeso]

This might not require a split personality. Would it be reasonable to have a shy, introverted character that has an incredibly short fuse?

I see no reason why not. There are enough real people like that.

[Bakeru]

Just in case it hasn't been said enough:
If you dump charisma but still want to have a likeable char, take ranks in diplomacy (and if you want to make jokes, a few ranks of perform (comedy)).
Oh, and sweet-talking a barmaid is definitely diplomacy, unless you're intentionally lying to her. Bluff without diplomacy means people don't like you, but believe you. Diplomacy without bluff means people know (if) you're lying, but like you anyway.

Charisma is the natural skill of a character in these things. A charismatic char can be reasonably charming and funny without effort (but to be a master at it, he still needs skill). A char without charisma has to learn it, and that's what skills are for.

Still, I wouldn't say charisma describes personal appearance. A char with low charisma and no social skills could be just... well, bland, in the long run. Looks good, but once you talk to him, he's just boring.
Really, how your character looks is more a combination of dexterity (moving with natural grace) and constitution (being healthy). Strength doesn't matter as much, because muscles don't equal strength, and not everyone likes men with to many muscles ("I didn't make him for you!").


Also, even with a charisma penalty, most people will be indifferent until and unless you actually do a diplomacy check - so, no one would mind you sitting in the corner.
But if you try to hog the attention, people will throw tomatoes. If you try to convince people of something, they'll consider your arguments as useless. If you ask for favours (without favourable conditions, e.g. without having earned them) you will seem demanding, while a diplomancer (with or without high charisma - skill bonus is the only thing that really matters) could ask a complete stranger for a meal and would get a place to sleep along with it.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Looks like I probably need to go into Diplomacy then.

Thanks for the help guys.
It will be interesting working in diplomacy without being the party face.

(We have a Paladin for that role)

[Cirrylius]

Not at all. A lot of bodybuilders who focus on having pretty-looking muscles are actually not as strong as you'd expect, and on the flip side, it's very easy to conceal serious muscles under layers of fat.

No offence, but that's not really analagous. A dumpstat implies an actual deficiency, not a smaller excess; if you've got muscle to show off, you're still going to be at least a little stronger than average, even if your benchpress isn't quite what they'd expect You can be strong with small muscles, but you can't be weak with big muscles.

[bigstipidfighte]

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

Nothing in the rules says you can't be a nice guy with a low charisma. What they do say is you won't command attention when you speak. Low charisma also translates to being physically unattractive.

Now, everyone with an 8 charisma isn't necessarily bad at all these things, but it should even out to being below average overall.

Ranks in diplomacy should make you a better debater and negotiator. Should. As was pointed out, even a below-average charisma character with no ranks is 5x more likely to get a favorable reaction than an unfavorable one- the skill is broken, don't use it as a benchmark.