[d20 3.5e] How best to rebuild Epic Knight Protector character?

[ericp65]

Heyas,

Another of my Epic level characters needs reworking to be all he can be the best he can be at what he does, so I'd like to ask for help rebuilding him.

Sav Thustar is a male drow elf of the Forgotten Realms with the Knight Protector PrC from Complete Warrior. Due to his background, I've given him some levels of Warblade (Bo9S) as well. The only other classes I've given him are Fighter and Aristocrat, but not even sure he needs those, either. I used to believe that, in order to be the most effective combatant, a character absolutely needs Fighter levels. I'm no longer convinced of this.

Background:
Born in the year 1128 DR, Sav was a noble of House Thustar, which was ranked one step below House Do'Urden in Menzoberranzan. Rejecting his society's lifestyle and worldview, and after his house was attacked and destroyed by a rival house, Sav fought and clawed his way to the surface of Faerun at age 200, having been inspired to do so after learning of Drizzt Do'Urden's departure (though the two never met). He lived and adventured for some years, and found his way to the far east. A monastery and combat training school took him in, where he learned to use the katana to great effect, and became fond of the local culture. After the monastery successfully defended against an attack by ninjas, Sav was rewarded for his assistance with a special daisho, which included a powerful katana that was combined with his own sword through crafting and magic. He bade the place and people farewell, heading west.

More adventuring brought his mind and abilities to the way of chivalry while in the company of a Paladin and his companions in and around Cormyr. For a short time, he established a modest keep in Battledale, but it was destroyed in a dragon attack. Sav and his friends wandered and adventured further, eventually finding themselves in the region of Damara. They became involved in the Bloodstone campaign, as represented in the H series of AD&D modules. His Paladin friend became King of Bloodstone, and he became Duke of Arcata, a duchy of the realm, and married the former king's daughter. He adopted the Knight Protector role as a sworn supporter of the king. After a dozen years of working to secure peace and prosperity in the realm, Sav agreed to join the king and queen in relinquishing their titles to free them up for more adventuring.

Sir Sav Thustar is currently a 46th level character (racial LA bought off). Lawful Good, but that can change. I can provide additional detail if needed, and no published game resources are barred. His interest is in continuing to be all he can be as a daisho-wielding chivalrous warrior.

TIA for any and all helpful advice!

[ericp65]

I may be on to something here, with a very tentative 20-level progression, loosely based on a TWF damage optimization post:

Fighter 1 - 5
Iajutsu Master 1 - 2
Warblade 1 - 2
Fighter 6
Warblade 3 - 4
Iajutsu Master 3 - 5
Warblade 5 - 8

At character levels 6 and 9, I bought off the LA for being a drow (UA variant).

Feats, in order, character levels 1 - 25: Cross-class Learning, Quick Draw, Perceptive Duelist, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Iajutsu Focus), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana), Weapon Focus (katana), Weapon Specialization (katana), TWF, Leap Attack, Item Familiar (katana), Impr. TWF, Blade Meditation, Expertise, Dodge, Gr. TWF, Mobility, Adaptive Style.

He'll be keeping Iajutsu Focus maxed out as much as possible. I still have 10 character levels to assign class levels to, and then levels in Knight Protector PrC (needn't be fifteen levels, as I had before).

Does anything look subpar here? I'll keep working on it as I listen to the crickets chirp ;)

[ericp65]

Further tinkering...I totally neglected the fact that Sir Sav is supposed to be a cavalier, aside from whatever else. That's what got him the position of Cavalier Commander in the Kingdom of Bloodstone, after his Paladin friend became king and he became Duke of Arcata. Anyway, cutting Fighter to four levels, then adding Iajutsu Master 1 - 4, Cav1 - 4, Warblade 1 - 4, and topping off the first 20 character levels with Cav5 and 6. This puts all Knight Protector PrC levels in Epic territory, which has me somewhat uneasy, but as this is a WIP, I'll keep tinkering with it.

Been consulting some related on-line handbooks and threads for this

[Eslin]

What's he going to be fighting? At level 47, numbers start to get pretty arbitrary, and what you've got there seem to be a bunch of classes focused on better numbers.

I'd try to go for utility and extra actions, especially extra actions. Travel devotion, factotum, that sort of thing. Iajutsu wise, ignore the prestige class and just take factotum levels occasionally, and spread out your damage a bit. Grab knowledge devotion, shape soulmeld (incarnate avatar), bonus essentia and other cheap damage tricks if you're really after damage - and with 45 character levels to play with, consider taking ten levels of swiftblade for the improved defense and extra actions.

Also, most of the feats on that list can be cut out or gotten another way. Completely ignore the katana thing, you're spending three feats on almost nothing. Replace dodge and mobility by taking two levels of cobra strike monk, gives you the same thing plus evasion and better saves.

[ericp65]

What's he going to be fighting? At level 47, numbers start to get pretty arbitrary, and what you've got there seem to be a bunch of classes focused on better numbers.

I'd try to go for utility and extra actions, especially extra actions. Travel devotion, factotum, that sort of thing. Iajutsu wise, ignore the prestige class and just take factotum levels occasionally, and spread out your damage a bit. Grab knowledge devotion, shape soulmeld (incarnate avatar), bonus essentia and other cheap damage tricks if you're really after damage - and with 45 character levels to play with, consider taking ten levels of swiftblade for the improved defense and extra actions.

Also, most of the feats on that list can be cut out or gotten another way. Completely ignore the katana thing, you're spending three feats on almost nothing. Replace dodge and mobility by taking two levels of cobra strike monk, gives you the same thing plus evasion and better saves.

This character is constrained in the rebuild somewhat in that he has a history (I played him from 1st level up). So, whatever I add must reflect his adventuring career, especially during the earlier part of his character progression. Fighter levels define the beginning of his career, then something from the Realms' equivalent to Southeast Asian culture (needn't be Iajutsu Master, but that looked like it agreed thematically; Monk or other "far eastern" combat style can sub for I.M. PrC levels). After what he picked up in that culture, he became an iconic "knight in shining armor," all about chivalry and heroic combat/warfare while adapting everything he'd learned. This includes becoming an accomplished cavalier, and Knight Protector should still be prominent after all that. This still leaves room for more...

Factotum is new material for me, and at first glance, it doesn't appear to fit the character concept, but I'll give it more consideration to see if there's a way it would fit.

Swiftblade might fit well, as Sav would want to be mobile on the battlefield, though he would never sneak attack due to his view of honorable conduct.

At some point along the way--maybe this can account for his last ten levels--he may well have picked up some additional classes/abilities, as long as I don't add something that makes me think "Well, if he had access to this stuff at x level, things would have worked out differently in this-or-that adventure." Introducing classes that give him more utility options is attractive, as long as nothing adds arcane or divine spellcasting to him, as he's never practiced either. Sav doesn't channel and use supernatural power from an external source. I once had the thought to give him Hidden Talent, to be able to manifest some psionic abilities that let his physical features become more pantherlike. I'd like to represent this concept, but it doesn't necessarily have to come from psionics.

As for the katana, that is his weapon of specialty, inextricably intertwined in his character concept; he fights with it nearly 100% of the time while on foot, but as he's a front-liner, and very interested in fighting dragons and other legendary creatures, being highly skilled in the use of a couple other weapons or so is a good idea. In his mind, his particular katana is an extension of himself, and he wants most of all to become the greatest katana wielder he can be. While mounted, the lance is his first choice, and then other weapons especially suited to mounted combat.

[Eslin]

Swiftblade doesn't contain any sneak attack, just a skirmish equivalent.
Factotum is merely a good way to get a bit of utility for your character - more actions, more options, and your stats are presumably pretty high by ECL 47 so the int to everything bit will help a lot.

Katana wise... try to remove as many feats as you can while still sticking to what you want.

Pantherlike wise - try bloodclaw blade and replace every instance of tiger with panther.
While you are shifting, your appearance takes on tigerlike aspects: Your fingernails become more pointed and clawlike, the irises of your eyes become narrow, catlike slits, your ears grow more pointed, and so on. While shifting, you gain a +2 bonus to Strength and you grow claws that can be used as natural weapons.

[ericp65]

Swiftblade doesn't contain any sneak attack, just a skirmish equivalent.
Factotum is merely a good way to get a bit of utility for your character - more actions, more options, and your stats are presumably pretty high by ECL 47 so the int to everything bit will help a lot.

Katana wise... try to remove as many feats as you can while still sticking to what you want.

Pantherlike wise - try bloodclaw blade and replace every instance of tiger with panther.
While you are shifting, your appearance takes on tigerlike aspects: Your fingernails become more pointed and clawlike, the irises of your eyes become narrow, catlike slits, your ears grow more pointed, and so on. While shifting, you gain a +2 bonus to Strength and you grow claws that can be used as natural weapons.

Yeah, this all looks good and easily applicable. I may have a solution for katana. I don't want to tie up too many character resources for it that would be better applied elsewhere. Oh, bloodclaw blade is the Bloodclaw Master PrC from Bo9S, I see. That's perfect! Sav probably won't need all five levels in it; I'll fit it in somewhere after his first block of Warblade levels. Now things are starting to take shape :) Thanks!

Sav's ability scores are all above 22, with STR being highest at 31, and he has items that raise all but his INT (maybe I should give him something for that, too).

[Eslin]

Woops, said bloodclaw blade instead of master - keep getting bloodclaw master and bloodstorm blade mixed up in my head.

And yeah, an int raiser would likely be a good idea. Factotum's by no means absolutely necessary, I just figure it's a good way to represent any non combat skills he's picked up while still boosting your combat prowess - has he spent his whole life fighting? It would also give him a bit of arcane casting without actually giving him a bit of arcane casting - factotums don't have any real power, they just have a few pieces of mumbo jumbo they've picked up along the way.

Katana wise, consider picking up some levels in exotic weapon master, seems like it would suit your build.

If you're looking for eastern style combat classes, I'd stick with the tome of battle and pick a class based on what you feel your character needs (samurai, monk, ninja etc) - if you're feeling like being a combat master, just take more warblade levels, and if you feel he has particular insight into the way of the sword perhaps try master of nine?

[ericp65]

Woops, said bloodclaw blade instead of master - keep getting bloodclaw master and bloodstorm blade mixed up in my head.

And yeah, an int raiser would likely be a good idea. Factotum's by no means absolutely necessary, I just figure it's a good way to represent any non combat skills he's picked up while still boosting your combat prowess - has he spent his whole life fighting? It would also give him a bit of arcane casting without actually giving him a bit of arcane casting - factotums don't have any real power, they just have a few pieces of mumbo jumbo they've picked up along the way.

Katana wise, consider picking up some levels in exotic weapon master, seems like it would suit your build.

If you're looking for eastern style combat classes, I'd stick with the tome of battle and pick a class based on what you feel your character needs (samurai, monk, ninja etc) - if you're feeling like being a combat master, just take more warblade levels, and if you feel he has particular insight into the way of the sword perhaps try master of nine?

Maybe not his whole life fighting. He proved himself best suited for battle while still in the Underdark, so he was a Drow patrol leader for a while, before turning his back on his people and heading to the surface. His adventuring career has mostly been a series of battles, some large, and some small. He commanded troops in the Bloodstone War, and later helped defend the kingdom against dragon raids and giant incursions. The last twelve years of the campaign have seen peace and prosperity throughout the kingdom in which his duchy lies. He teaches swordfighting to students he finds worthy, and may very well have picked up a trick or two from times spent with friends and allies (paladins, fighters, wizards, druids, clerics). He'll join his friends who rule the kingdom when they leave Toril for adventures among the Planes. He spends some of his spare time forging and enameling weapons and armor.

Warblade definitely suits this character, so that could easily be his "main" base class. I'll revisit Exotic Weapon Master (thanks for pointing that one out!), as I've been wondering what to do about his katana/wakizashi fetish obsession preference.

[Eslin]

Not sure if there's an epic kensai progression, but if there is I'd consider making it a huge part of the build - focuses on law, honour and battle and the primary ability is improving the power of one specific bonded weapon, and has a very eastern flavour.

Warblade and tome of battle wise, keep in mind that you can get level nine maneuvers with only one level as long as it's past level 32. You can take as many or as few levels as you want, just note that you'll be able to start getting the most powerful maneuvers immediately so you don't have to take any more once you've gotten what you came for.

Have you considered a few levels of paladin? You're lawful good already, 4 levels of paladin (or a level of cloistered cleric and 1-3 levels of prestige paladin would be even better) would get you some useful abilities. If you take the cloistered cleric route, take law domain and swap that and the knowledge domain and swap them for the relevant devotions.

[ericp65]

Not sure if there's an epic kensai progression, but if there is I'd consider making it a huge part of the build - focuses on law, honour and battle and the primary ability is improving the power of one specific bonded weapon, and has a very eastern flavour.

Warblade and tome of battle wise, keep in mind that you can get level nine maneuvers with only one level as long as it's past level 32. You can take as many or as few levels as you want, just note that you'll be able to start getting the most powerful maneuvers immediately so you don't have to take any more once you've gotten what you came for.

Have you considered a few levels of paladin? You're lawful good already, 4 levels of paladin (or a level of cloistered cleric and 1-3 levels of prestige paladin would be even better) would get you some useful abilities. If you take the cloistered cleric route, take law domain and swap that and the knowledge domain and swap them for the relevant devotions.

You think faster than I do *L* Kensai looks very appropriate, and may well be the solution to the spotlight-on-katana thing. It's a 10-level PrC, so yeah, there's epic for levels 11+. Adding some of this will help fill out these character levels nicely, and I predict that Kensai and Warblade will go well together (looks that way, thematically)...

This guy isn't really a paladin type. He doesn't even have a single deity he reveres, though he's familiar with a few (his paladin friend and king is a paladin of Torm). I won't count this idea out just yet, though, depending on what all will go into his "final" level progression. It might suit him, as he's big into wearing full plate armor and wading into melee especially against powerful evil. He's honest and honorable, for better and for worse.

I apparently choked on math when calculating his XP. After buying off racial LA, his current XP total is 1,075,000, which puts his overall character level at 46 (someone please check me if I'm wrong here). Just means I have one less level to sort, but that's no problem.

[Eslin]

I'm assuming this is forgotten realms from what you've said so you'll need a deity for paladinhood, so I guess if it doesn't fit don't go for it. If you can do so however, try the cloistered cleric 1/prestige paladin 2-3 thing. Devotion feats and the turn undead attempts to power them will work really well with your build.

[ericp65]

I'm assuming this is forgotten realms from what you've said so you'll need a deity for paladinhood, so I guess if it doesn't fit don't go for it. If you can do so however, try the cloistered cleric 1/prestige paladin 2-3 thing. Devotion feats and the turn undead attempts to power them will work really well with your build.

Correct, Forgotten Realms is the setting. Sav has lived in Menzoberranzan, Kara-Tur, Battledale, and Bloodstone (Damara). I can consider that his paladin friend has had more influence on him than I'd previously envisioned. Maybe he became inspired. I'll read up on Cloistered Cleric, as I'm not familiar with it, and look over Presitigious Paladin as well. Looks like this character will end up being far more useful than ever before :)

[Eslin]

Ah. Cloistered cleric is like a more bookish version of a regular one, the main bonus being free knowledge domain - which would translate to quite a boost if swapped for knowledge devotion, as presumably by this point your character's seen enough to be good at finding weak points in foes.

If that doesn't fit the theme, swap it for a regular cleric level - 2 domains and turn undead is still good, just not quite as good as 3 domains and turn undead.

At this point, the real consideration is what you want from your character. The ability to make six attacks every time you teleport, and the ability to teleport three times a round? The ability to trip, disable and kill anyone who gets close? Mounted combat wise, your main problem will be keeping a mount alive - try wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) or take leadership and get a strong mount that way, or get a magic item that lets you summon a type of monster you'd like to use. Whatever you pick, get it to take as many ranks in UMD as it needs to reliably pretend to be a horse in order to use horseshoes of flame (http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/30148740/Horseshoes%20of%20Flame)

If you're looking for good dips for your character, here are a few - decide if they fit the kind of knowledge your character would pick up:

Cleric - 2-3 domains means 2-3 free feats, on top of turn undead (which can be used to power several very good feats) makes this the best one level dip in the game

Knight - take 3 levels for a few minor bonuses and 'Bulwark of Defense (Ex): When you reach 3rd level, an opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain. Your strict vigilance and active defensive maneuvers force your opponents to move with care.'

Witch hunter - 5 levels, potentially good. Usually most builds don't have space, but 5 levels of this will get you mettle and a fantastic ability to shut down spellcasting, spell like or supernatural abilities every 5 rounds - stop the beholder using eye rays, the dragon breathing fire and the wizard from casting.

Binder - take 1 level, use it to keep bonuses useful for you - if you can't think of anything else, Naberius' ability healing (heal 1 point each round for ability scores) means it's very difficult to take you out of the fight by damaging your stats

Paladin - 4 levels gets you cha to saves, turn undead and a bunch of nifty stuff like fear immunity and a free feat if you forgo spellcasting. 2 levels of prestige paladin achieve the same thing if you already have a divine casting class (like, say, cleric).

Monk - 1 or 2 levels only. Improved unarmed strike, two bonus feats (use variant style monks to improve the list of possibilities), big save bonuses and evasion. If you don't already have them, use the monk feats to qualify for defensive throw (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/defensive-throw--558/) and elusive target (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/elusive-target--841/) feats - both grant you excellent combat options and ways to strike back at your foes when they try attacking you and you dodge, a drow specialty.

Totemist - 2 levels. Grab the bonus essentia feat while you're there, open up whichever chakra bind you feel like (you're level 46, you get access to any one you want) and pick whatever's useful that day. Zone of magical darkness around you that only you can see through, natural ranged attack that you don't need your hands for (6x1d6+1/2str, use it on anyone who doesn't expect a guy with a sword to hurt them when they're out of range), move action teleports, go nuts.

Wizard - 1 level. May not mesh, but if you can swing it in one level you get a free martial feat and abrupt jaunt, one of the best defensive abilities in the game

Again, if at all possible, fit swiftblade levels in. Extraordinary (rather than supernatural) haste, 50% chance for everything to miss you, great abilities everywhere. Arcane casting is needed though, may not be possible for you if that's not how you see your character heading.

[ericp65]

Wow, so many classes good for dippin'! I pared the list down slightly, considering what fits the character best (not just where he's been in his career, but also where he'd like to go, to build a better foundation for future possibilities). He wants to be a mini-cyclone of deadly steel, favoring many attacks over a few that do massive damage and still holding true to his sense of honor...but not naive honor. Special surprises that help against powerful foes don't necessarily violate his code. I'm thinking a winged mount that he can call when needed would be invaluable...

What is the source for the Witch Hunter? I need to read up on that one.

So, Cleric + Prestige Paladin, Knight, Witch Hunter (tentative), Monk, Totemist (he either discovers Incarnum/essentia for this version of the Realms, or he meets and befriends someone experienced with it, who helps him to find and utilize it), and Swiftblade are in, and I'll figure out a decent order in his progression. I'm still rearranging all his class levels beyond Ftr4. I can include Binder as well (just now read up on it), as memories of life among his people and their habits would inspire thoughts as to ways to use pact magic that don't conflict with his moral values.

Earlier, I was confusing Swiftblade with Swift Hunter, but I'm straightened out on that now. This is easy enough to enter, as elves treat weapons designated as "elven" as martial, rather than exotic, and it's reasonable for him to learn to and craft his own thinblade and lightblade as an occasional alternative to his customary daisho.

Just today, I was thinking that Sav could have one or more Cleric levels without relying much on divine spellcasting, dipping for the class features that grant access to other useful abilities.

Looking better all the time. Back to my notes :)

[ericp65]

Tentative level progression:

(+2 LA, bought off at levels 6 and 9)
1 - 4 Fighter
5 Factotum
6 Swiftblade
7 Warblade (5)
8 Cavalier (5)
9 Knight
10 Cleric
11 Prestige Paladin (2)
12 Witch Hunter
13 Knight Protector (15)
14 Totemist
15 Binder

Maybe there's a more advantageous, closer to optimal progression than this? I could forego the extra five levels of Knight Protector, and distribute them elsewhere. Flexible here.

I was thinking that having the last two classes where they are as representing Sav getting more into supernatural things, and the thought replaying in his mind as he made new discoveries was "I need more power, more advantage over my dreaded foes."

His primary interest will be in combatting epic monsters (especially evil dragons, evil outsiders, cruel and unjust lords, etc.) and other opponents worthy to stand against the kind of warrior he is. He'll become well-learned about the planes, with special interest in the places known for warfare and glory.

[Eslin]

To be honest, I'd consider straight out swapping knight protector for knight (PHB2) - they have the same lawful, code of honour, protect your allies and keep fighting vibe and class features, but the knight base class is just plain better at what it does (it's still not very good, but it's a lot better than knight protector).

Example of the kind of stuff it has:

Loyal Beyond Death (Ex): At 20th level, if you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an effect that otherwise leaves your body intact, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to remain conscious and continue to act for 1 more round before dying. You can use this ability even if your hit point total is —10 or lower. If your body is somehow destroyed before your next action (such as by disintegrate), then you cannot act. You can continue to expend uses of your knight's challenge ability to survive from round to round until you run out of uses. If you receive healing that leaves you with more than —10 hit points, you survive (or fall unconscious, as appropriate to your new hit point total) when you stop using this ability. Otherwise, death overtakes you when you run out of uses of your knight's challenge ability.
Armor Mastery (Ex): Starting at 4th level, you are able to wear your armor like a second skin and ignore the standard speed reduction for wearing medium armor. Starting at 9th level, you ignore the speed reduction imposed by heavy armor as well.

Test of Mettle (Ex): Starting at 4th level, you can shout a challenge to all enemies, calling out for the mightiest among them to face you in combat. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an Intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meet these requirements are immune to the test of mettle. You must have line of sight and line of effect to the targets of this ability.

As a swift action, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause all your enemies within 100 feet with a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2 to make Will saves (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier). Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.

An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal. If anyone other than you attacks the target, the effect of the test of mettle ends for that specific target.

If you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an opponent forced to attack you due to this ability, you gain one additional use of your knight's challenge ability for that day. This additional use comes from increased confidence and the knowledge that you have proved your mettle as a knight against your enemies by calling out foes even against overwhelming odds. This additional use disappears if you have not used it by the start of the next day. You can only gain one additional use of your knight's challenge ability in this manner per day.

The effect of a test of mettle lasts for a number of rounds equal to 5 + your Charisma bonus (if any). Whether a creature fails or succeeds on its save against your test of mettle, it can only be targeted by this effect once per day.

[ericp65]

To be honest, I'd consider straight out swapping knight protector for knight (PHB2) - they have the same lawful, code of honour, protect your allies and keep fighting vibe and class features, but the knight base class is just plain better at what it does (it's still not very good, but it's a lot better than knight protector).

Example of the kind of stuff it has:

Loyal Beyond Death (Ex): At 20th level, if you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an effect that otherwise leaves your body intact, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to remain conscious and continue to act for 1 more round before dying. You can use this ability even if your hit point total is —10 or lower. If your body is somehow destroyed before your next action (such as by disintegrate), then you cannot act. You can continue to expend uses of your knight's challenge ability to survive from round to round until you run out of uses. If you receive healing that leaves you with more than —10 hit points, you survive (or fall unconscious, as appropriate to your new hit point total) when you stop using this ability. Otherwise, death overtakes you when you run out of uses of your knight's challenge ability.
Armor Mastery (Ex): Starting at 4th level, you are able to wear your armor like a second skin and ignore the standard speed reduction for wearing medium armor. Starting at 9th level, you ignore the speed reduction imposed by heavy armor as well.

Test of Mettle (Ex): Starting at 4th level, you can shout a challenge to all enemies, calling out for the mightiest among them to face you in combat. Any target of this ability must have a language of some sort and an Intelligence score of 5 or higher. Creatures that do not meet these requirements are immune to the test of mettle. You must have line of sight and line of effect to the targets of this ability.

As a swift action, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to cause all your enemies within 100 feet with a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2 to make Will saves (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier). Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.

An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal. If anyone other than you attacks the target, the effect of the test of mettle ends for that specific target.

If you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an opponent forced to attack you due to this ability, you gain one additional use of your knight's challenge ability for that day. This additional use comes from increased confidence and the knowledge that you have proved your mettle as a knight against your enemies by calling out foes even against overwhelming odds. This additional use disappears if you have not used it by the start of the next day. You can only gain one additional use of your knight's challenge ability in this manner per day.

The effect of a test of mettle lasts for a number of rounds equal to 5 + your Charisma bonus (if any). Whether a creature fails or succeeds on its save against your test of mettle, it can only be targeted by this effect once per day.

Ahhh, that appears very fitting, and might free up some character levels for other things. A knightly class should most definitely be prominent in this build. Sav usually targets what he perceives as the greatest threat in an enemy group, so the challenge thing is perfect. In battle, when he's about to strike a killing blow, he has a habit of raising his visor, so his foe can see who did him/her/it in (just a little dramatic flair).

Now, if Knight isn't very good, is there a more attractive alternative knightly class? The only other one I'm familiar with is Knight of the Chalice, but that's not exactly the way Sav wants to go (it's more his paladin friend's schtick).

[mregecko]

For what it's worth, I cannot imagine making a martial character in epic levels that doesn't have Exceptional and Infinite Deflection.

Otherwise it's far too easy for any mage, archer, whatever... To just orb/ray/arrow you to death.

My $0.02.

[ericp65]

For what it's worth, I cannot imagine making a martial character in epic levels that doesn't have Exceptional and Infinite Deflection.

Otherwise it's far too easy for any mage, archer, whatever... To just orb/ray/arrow you to death.

My $0.02.

I value all input, and I'll make note of this. Thanks!

[Eslin]

Ahhh, that appears very fitting, and might free up some character levels for other things. A knightly class should most definitely be prominent in this build. Sav usually targets what he perceives as the greatest threat in an enemy group, so the challenge thing is perfect. In battle, when he's about to strike a killing blow, he has a habit of raising his visor, so his foe can see who did him/her/it in (just a little dramatic flair).

Now, if Knight isn't very good, is there a more attractive alternative knightly class? The only other one I'm familiar with is Knight of the Chalice, but that's not exactly the way Sav wants to go (it's more his paladin friend's schtick).

Unfortunately, the answer to this question is crusader/warblade. Honestly, if you've been doing fine with fighter and knight protector levels I wouldn't worry too much about optimisation and grab all the knight levels you want.

The problem with high level d&d is the best martial characters... aren't. A wizard with ten levels of dweomerkeeper, incantatrix and swiftblade - or any other combination, or just a 20 levels of wizard - is a much more powerful melee combatant than you could ever hope to be thanks to spells like shapechange. Ditto druids and clerics and most other full casters.

If you really feel like going melee without using spells to make you the best at it (which you should, stick with your character) then your best bet is to try to become unkillable and go from there. Get some luck feats to turn your 1s into 20s, grab infinite deflection, exceptional deflection and reflect arrows to automatically block and attack your opponent with any ranged weapon or ranged touch attack spell targeted at you, grab mindsight somehow (unblockable), grab items that make you immune to movement impairers/mind affecting stuff/various elements/negative levels/crits/ability drain and such, and once you're done on that then figure out how you want your offense to work.

[ericp65]

Unfortunately, the answer to this question is crusader/warblade. Honestly, if you've been doing fine with fighter and knight protector levels I wouldn't worry too much about optimisation and grab all the knight levels you want.

The problem with high level d&d is the best martial characters... aren't. A wizard with ten levels of dweomerkeeper, incantatrix and swiftblade - or any other combination, or just a 20 levels of wizard - is a much more powerful melee combatant than you could ever hope to be thanks to spells like shapechange. Ditto druids and clerics and most other full casters.

If you really feel like going melee without using spells to make you the best at it (which you should, stick with your character) then your best bet is to try to become unkillable and go from there. Get some luck feats to turn your 1s into 20s, grab infinite deflection, exceptional deflection and reflect arrows to automatically block and attack your opponent with any ranged weapon or ranged touch attack spell targeted at you, grab mindsight somehow (unblockable), grab items that make you immune to movement impairers/mind affecting stuff/various elements/negative levels/crits/ability drain and such, and once you're done on that then figure out how you want your offense to work.

That will help to keep this character on track, as far as concept and history. He's always been about the melee first and foremost. I still feel that adding Binder is a bit of a stretch, even if I can weave it into his story, as he's the kind of character who prefers to rely on strength of arms, training, tactics, and special abilities geared toward fighting evil, augmented by any power he's learned to tap into "from within." However, anything he can justify as a boon against his intended foes...

After firming up his class/level progression, I'll address his feat selections and his gear (which might not be as great/useful as I'd previously thought). I follow the Iron Heroes rule for bonus feat acquisition by character level (one at first, one at second, and then one at every even-numbered level through 20th), and then one at every odd-numbered level from 21st on up.

[Eslin]

Cool. Ditch binder then, it's a good dip but not absolutely necessary, if it gets in the way then scrap it. Feat wise, start searching out the more useful martial feats - combat brute, shock trooper, mage slayer, elusive target, defensive throw, knockdown, improved trip, snap kick, robilar's gambit etc.

[ericp65]

Cool. Ditch binder then, it's a good dip but not absolutely necessary, if it gets in the way then scrap it. Feat wise, start searching out the more useful martial feats - combat brute, shock trooper, mage slayer, elusive target, defensive throw, knockdown, improved trip, snap kick, robilar's gambit etc.

Yes, more in-combat moves are more this guy's style. He likes to make the fight up-close and personal. If faced by a group of fiends, he's likely to point to the most powerful in the group and say "Let's dance!" (but more poetically, hehe). The Knight's ability to draw foes to him is perfect!

I'll keep Binder in mind for a more appropriate character, as I like the concept. It has always surprised me that D&D (in its various incarnations) never really had much about summoning extraplanar entities and binding them into objects as a source of supernatural power. The Elric!/Stormbringer rpgs had "demons of combat" and other such things that I found very cool. Maybe something along these lines does exist in D&D, and I simply haven't stumbled upon it yet.

I'll add more Warblade and Knight levels, and possibly some more Cavalier, as these fit the character concept best. Everything else helps him be better at what he does without going off on a tangent. I realize that his having a set history means the character won't be fully optimized, so my goal is really to make the best of what I have. Bouncing around ideas like this helps a great deal!

[ericp65]

I searched for Witch Hunter, but found only references to a Pathfinder class. Is there also a 3.5e class, or can the PF class fit in with 3.5e?

[Eslin]

My fault, I meant witch slayer (p67, tome of magic). Their main uses are slippery mind and mettle (both great defenses) and the ability to disable spells/spell like/supernatural abilities every five rounds, make an enemy come fight you face to face.

[ericp65]

My fault, I meant witch slayer (p67, tome of magic). Their main uses are slippery mind and mettle (both great defenses) and the ability to disable spells/spell like/supernatural abilities every five rounds, make an enemy come fight you face to face.

Fantastic! I'll check it out. Thanks :)

[ericp65]

Fantastic! I'll check it out. Thanks :)

Looks good enough to take all five levels. I've nearly worked out the latest 46-level progression, so I'll throw it up here when ready.

[ericp65]

Here's the latest revised level progression (I would have made a table, but I tried and failed in creating one *L*):

Character
Level Class
------ ------
1 - 4 Fighter
5 Factotum
6 Exotic Weapon Master
7 Monk
8 - 16 Kensai
17 Swiftblade
18 - 25 Warblade
26 - 33 Cavalier
34 - 36 Knight
37 Cleric
38 - 39 Prestige Paladin
40 - 44 Witch Slayer
45 - 46 Totemist

If a different order would be more to the character's advantage, I'll gladly move things around for best results. Maybe some classes with multiple levels could be split up and spread around the progression?

[Eslin]

Not terrible, but I'd change the order. Factotum's got several breakpoints - if you're dipping, take 1, 3 or 8 levels. Warblade you want to start taking levels in a bit later - you have a ridiculous amount of levels, might as well start taking advantage of that and getting level 9 maneuvers immediately.

Swiftblade wise, it's a haste casting based arcane prestige class that happens to be insanely good in melee - if you're taking it, take as many levels as you can, but as is you don't qualify for it.

Cavalier wise - what are you intending to ride? You need a mount that's going to survive in high epic combat.

Kensai wise - the main draw is the enchanted weapon, but at level 46 you should have easily enough gold to get whatever kind of weapon you want. Honestly, either take ten epic levels of it or give it up.

Also, consider replacing some of the warblade levels with master of nine if you meet the prerequisites - past level 20 your BAB ceases to matter so much. I'd take a level of warblade at 33 and then spend 34-38 taking master of nine, it'll get you the same thing in less levels. Possibly take a level of crusader before that - fits your theme, and between the two you'll have enough maneuevers to qualify for master of nine and get all the level 9 strikes you might want (this (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/strike-righteous-vitality--3615/) and this (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/time-stands-still--3640/) especially)

[Eslin]

On the off chance your charisma is 30 or higher, consider taking a level of anointed knight for
'Inspired Strike: Three times per day, the knight can take a single extra attack at her highest attack bonus as a free action.'
Three extra attacks instantly can be a great weapon - pick a time you really need damage or are incredibly buffed and go to town.

[ericp65]

On the off chance your charisma is 30 or higher, consider taking a level of anointed knight for
'Inspired Strike: Three times per day, the knight can take a single extra attack at her highest attack bonus as a free action.'
Three extra attacks instantly can be a great weapon - pick a time you really need damage or are incredibly buffed and go to town.

His scores are STR 31, DEX 30, CON 28, INT 23, WIS 24, CHA 23. Items enhance the scores: STR 43, DEX 42, CON 40, WIS 36, CHA 35. His scores were all raised through legal means (wishes, draws of Deck of Many Things, etc.).

[ericp65]

Not terrible, but I'd change the order. Factotum's got several breakpoints - if you're dipping, take 1, 3 or 8 levels. Warblade you want to start taking levels in a bit later - you have a ridiculous amount of levels, might as well start taking advantage of that and getting level 9 maneuvers immediately.

Swiftblade wise, it's a haste casting based arcane prestige class that happens to be insanely good in melee - if you're taking it, take as many levels as you can, but as is you don't qualify for it.

Cavalier wise - what are you intending to ride? You need a mount that's going to survive in high epic combat.

Kensai wise - the main draw is the enchanted weapon, but at level 46 you should have easily enough gold to get whatever kind of weapon you want. Honestly, either take ten epic levels of it or give it up.

Also, consider replacing some of the warblade levels with master of nine if you meet the prerequisites - past level 20 your BAB ceases to matter so much. I'd take a level of warblade at 33 and then spend 34-38 taking master of nine, it'll get you the same thing in less levels. Possibly take a level of crusader before that - fits your theme, and between the two you'll have enough maneuevers to qualify for master of nine and get all the level 9 strikes you might want (this (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/strike-righteous-vitality--3615/) and this (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/time-stands-still--3640/) especially)

It looks like Sav qualifies for Swiftblade, as long as he can get TWF before entry. Elven weapons are martial weapons for him, and he's proficient with all simple and martial weapons...but would it be fair to apply this elven rule with a drow? Looks like I'll want at least five levels.

Gonna reorganize on paper, and then post the next revision.

[ericp65]

Ten epic levels of Kensai...does that mean 20 levels of it altogether? That's a mighty large block do dedicate, and almost squeezes out one or more other classes. It appears that he could go as low as five levels to get the best benefits from the class.

Adding Crusader and Master of Nine look really good here. If Warblade 1 comes before Master Nine 1 - 5, I suppose he could add some more Warblade levels afterward, but it makes more sense to me right now to get the Warblade levels in beforehand.

What would you suggest to further refine the progression for these classes?

[ericp65]

I had no notes on mounts for this character that I could find, so medum warhorse would do for a land mount. I'd also like a winged mount, but not sure what kind would best accompany him as air cavalry.

[Eslin]

Swiftblade needs you to have the ability to cast haste, which you seem to be lacking.

Mount wise - how are you expecting a medium warhorse to survive? The first time you get hit with an aoe ability it will die, anything that presents a challenge to a level 46 character will be able to kill a normal horse in the blink of an eye. Also, prestige paladin and eight levels of cavalier will have you treated as a level 13 paladin for special mount purposes, but that's on 6 extra HD - not nearly enough to stay alive.

If you still really love the idea of being mounted, try the wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat for a land mount and possibly the dragon cohort feat for a flying mount.

If you choose a heavy warhorse for your cohort, it would have 32 strength, 27 dexterity, 33 natural armour and 33 hit dice, which might work out for you if you gave it some decent equipment. Horseshoes of flame (savage species) would give it a nightmare like appearance, 90 ft fly speed, 1d4 fire damage on all hoof attacks and +2 dex, +6 cha and +10 int.

[ericp65]

Swiftblade needs you to have the ability to cast haste, which you seem to be lacking.

Mount wise - how are you expecting a medium warhorse to survive? The first time you get hit with an aoe ability it will die, anything that presents a challenge to a level 46 character will be able to kill a normal horse in the blink of an eye. Also, prestige paladin and eight levels of cavalier will have you treated as a level 13 paladin for special mount purposes, but that's on 6 extra HD - not nearly enough to stay alive.

If you still really love the idea of being mounted, try the wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat for a land mount and possibly the dragon cohort feat for a flying mount.

If you choose a heavy warhorse for your cohort, it would have 32 strength, 27 dexterity, 33 natural armour and 33 hit dice, which might work out for you if you gave it some decent equipment. Horseshoes of flame (savage species) would give it a nightmare like appearance, 90 ft fly speed, 1d4 fire damage on all hoof attacks and +2 dex, +6 cha and +10 int.

Missed that requirement for Swiftblade...I don't see a way to fit that in, as Sav has no access to arcane magic (and haste isn't one of his racial spell-like abilities). So...not sure how to get him access without taking a level of a full-blown arcane spellcasting class, which would not fit his character at all.

I was wondering the same thing about a mount's survivability, even with magical protective gear. Perhaps a dire heavy warhorse, if such a thing is possible. Something more powerful (and would take a rider) would be even better. Drakkensteed (Dragon Magic) looks like a great choice!

[Eslin]

drakkensteed wise, go for a draggonel instead - see http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162593

[ericp65]

drakkensteed wise, go for a draggonel instead - see http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162593

Dragonnel does look more appropriate, and much better than any of the special mounts mentioned in the paladin's special mount text. Steelwing might also work, but appears less appropriate than a dragonnel.

I'm thinking that applying a template to the mount might also be a good idea, and/or advancing the creature.

[ericp65]

Another level progression for Sav. What should still be changed, moved around, etc. to bring this as close to optimal as possible? Still not sure about Kensai (can't add more levels as I see it now, could possibly drop the class if something else would better fit character concept).

1 - 4 Fighter
5 Factotum
6 Exotic Weapon Master
7 Monk
8 Crusader
9 - 12 Cavalier
13 Bloodclaw Master
14 - 21 Kensai
22 - 24 Knight
25 Cleric
26 - 28 Swiftblade
29 - 30 Prestige Paladin
31 - 32 Cavalier
33 Warblade
34 - 38 Master of Nine
39 - 41 Warblade
42 - 43 Swiftblade
44 Witch Slayer
45 - 46 Totemist

Couldn't fit more Witch Slayer levels in as it is now. This is the closest progression I could come up with to what all has been suggested so far.

Of course, anything is possible when the character is ready to advance in level again...as soon as I can assemble a party of appropriate APL (my parties always consist of up to four characters, with no more than a +/- 2 character level discrepancy between characters). I'm not afraid to pit such parties against challenges that are 2 higher than equal to APL, as greater risks bring greater rewards.

[ericp65]

Now to revise this character's feats...

Currently, Sav has the following:

Blind-Fight, Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, Exotic Weap Prof (katana), Improved Crit (katana), Improved Init, Iron Will, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Cleave, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Weap Foc (katana), GWF (katana), Weap Spec (katana), GWS (katana), Ambidexterity, Epic WF (katana), Epic WS (katana), Great CON.

How can this list be improved to make him the most effective chivalrous knightly character he can be, given his class selections, and as one who greatly enjoys fighting powerful evil combatants, with a special focus on fighting evil dragons?

Considering his main weapon to be a Weapon of Legacy, I've given him the relevant bonus feats.

[Gavinfoxx]

You really really really want to start with your fist level as a skill-heavy class.

Really really really.

Even if it is just Feat Rogue.

How is he getting Pounce? Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian?

Ambidexterity is a 3.0 feat, it was shunted into two weapon fighting in 3.5e.

You want to trash most of those weapon focus / weapon specialization feats for feats that are actually useful, ie, give you new abilities.

Improved Crit doesn't stack with Keen or things that give Keen.

Read these:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234327
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1542
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7414
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870606/The_Fighters_Handbook_--_2007
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4408
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773

I'd remove as many of these feats as possible:
... wait, let's just go by the feats you should consider keeping:

Improved Init
Leadership
Mounted Combat
Ride-By Attack
Spirited Charge
Power Attack

Of that list of feats, the only REALLY REALLY GOOD feats for a warrior that you chose were Power Attack and Leadership. And the only feat that really was worth the cost (ie, a feat slot) at directly making you a better combatant from that list is Power Attack. And you should always wield your weapon in two hands. You can still two weapon fight, but you should always wield your main weapon in two hands. Essentially, stop looking at the PHB and ELH for useful feats for melee characters, as depressingly few are found there. If you want to know what PHB melee characters that are competent at melee look like, look at this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

An SRD, unmounted, tactical melee character that is good at melee might have the following feats:

Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Knock-Down
Improved Trip
Power Attack
Hold the Line
Stand Still

and they would use a Guisarme and Armor spikes (needing only martial weapon proficiency) to fight. Those are really about the best nonmagical tactical melee weapon based combat feats in core (including epic feats in that list! Most epic feats suck), and they use the only useful melee fighting style that is feat based in core -- two handed reach weapon with tripping capability.

Are you SURE the weapon can't be a Kama-Yari (ie, Japanese Guisarme; Samurai did actually use polearms...) instead?

Anyway, at level 46, you should be dealing several thousand damage in a full attack action. Also remember that many things will be immune to death via hit point damage until their spells are taken from them, so adding a bunch of negative levels, and extremely powerful dispel effects helps as well, as will removing reactive teleportation capability. Also, by this point, you should not need to breathe, eat, drink, or sleep, and you should be able to fly/hover/burrow (including through stone)/swim/earthglide/ do several types of shortrange teleportation, at will.

Also, which custom epic spells do you have on your person all the time?

Also, Two Weapon Fighting on its own is only decent with Bloodclaw Master... and you only get the full strength in your off hand and removal of the -2 penalty entirely with kukri, kama, handaxe, unarmed strike, or claws. So you shouldn't two weapon fight unless you are two handing and using spiked armor or whatever as your off hand weapon. Also you will want full on Pounce, not just Pouncing Strike.

[ericp65]

A lot to read and absorb! I'll be studying up on all this...

Part of the difficulty with this character (and a few others) is that he was originally written in 2nd Ed rules, then translated to 3.0, then attempted to be revised to 3.5e. This is the continuation and correction of the 3.5e revision.

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem with that is that Ad&d could go up to levels like that as martial characters without at least 6th level spells. D&d 3.5e really, really doesn't. Read about Team Solar, that is NON EPIC, I linked to it in the other thread; in 3.5e, Epic level is supposed to be more powerful than that. Also read that challenging 3.5 and PF parties document, to understand what you aren't getting. Essentially, no matter what you do, unless you use your wealth really really well, you'll lose to a well played 20th level Wizard, and most certainly to a well played 21st level Wizard... unless you have 9th level spells and the epic spellcasting feat. All of this stuff with feats and fighting style is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. It's really time to understand that in 3.5e, epic doesn't work like it did in ad&d....

[ericp65]

The problem with that is that Ad&d could go up to levels like that as martial characters without at least 6th level spells. D&d 3.5e really, really doesn't. Read about Team Solar, that is NON EPIC, I linked to it in the other thread; in 3.5e, Epic level is supposed to be more powerful than that. Also read that challenging 3.5 and PF parties document, to understand what you aren't getting. Essentially, no matter what you do, unless you use your wealth really really well, you'll lose to a well played 20th level Wizard, and most certainly to a well played 21st level Wizard... unless you have 9th level spells and the epic spellcasting feat. All of this stuff with feats and fighting style is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. It's really time to understand that in 3.5e, epic doesn't work like it did in ad&d....

Yep, I'll be reading those. It's unfortunate that, by the time these characters were converted to 3rd, they were diving directly into Epic territory, with no character or player or DM familiarity. I'm getting the impression that arcane casting ability will be essential to any character's success. Also understanding that being able to do ability damage, deal negative levels, and bite into the saves of foes are essential to this fighting character's success.

Off to read some more...

[Gavinfoxx]

Not necessarily arcane casting ability. Though Arcane is the most expedient. Divine or Psionic would work fine as well...

[ericp65]

Not necessarily arcane casting ability. Though Arcane is the most expedient. Divine or Psionic would work fine as well...

There is the level of Cleric, but surely that won't suffice on its own?

[Gavinfoxx]

There is the level of Cleric, but surely that won't suffice on its own?

Can you cast at least 6th level spells or powers? No?

[Eslin]

What Gavinfoxx is saying is largely correct, though I wasn't giving my advice on the basis of what he's saying because I figure if you have a DM who you can survive epic play with while using a character built like that then the usual epic magic or die thing doesn't apply.

[ericp65]

Another revision for the level progression:

Edited again...

1 Factotum 1
2 - 4 Warblade 1 - 3
5 Kensai 1
6 Monk 1
7 Exotic Weapon Master 1
8 - 11 Cavalier 1 - 4
12 Crusader 1
13 - 19 Kensai 2 - 8
20 Cleric 1
21 - 23 Knight 1 - 3
24 Factotum 2
25 Bloodclaw Master 1
26 - 30 Swiftblade 1 - 5
31 - 32 Cavalier 5, 6
33 Prestige Paladin 1
34 - 38 Master of Nine 1 - 5
39 - 40 Warblade 4, 5
41 Factotum 3
42 Prestige Paladin 2
43 Witch Slayer 1
44 Warblade 6
45 - 46 Totemist 1, 2

Looks better to me, but I get the feeling the progression, using the existing classes, could be improved to bring it closer to optimal for this particular character. Thoughts?

[ericp65]

Building the Feat progression now. My wish list is way too long, of course, so I'll just save the excess for future level advancement, after deciding what to cut from the list. First thought is that the tops/ends of "feat chains" should be the first to go. This will also refine the character's goals in improvements to what he does best and (more importantly) needs most, I hope :smallsmile:

[ericp65]

More revisions, trying to fit feats into the build, and I'm still not satisfied.

Here's how the character stands now:

Factotum 1/Warblade 1 - 3/Crusader 1/Monk 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Cavalier 1/Kensai 1 - 8/Cavalier 2 - 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Knight 1 - 3/Factotum 2/Bloodclaw Master 1/Swiftblade 1 - 5/Cavalier 5 - 6/Prestige Paladin 1/Master of Nine 1 - 5/Warblade 4 - 5/Factotum 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Witch Slayer 1/Warblade 6/Totemist 1 - 2

Feat progression: Impr. Init., EWP(katana), WF(katana), Ancestral Relic, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Impr. Unarmed Strike, Mtd. Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Travel Devotion, Leadership, TWF, Impr. Trip, Dodge, Adaptive Style, Hold the Line, Pounce, Deathblow, Knockback, Snap Kick, Shock Trooper, Mage Slayer, Shadow Striking.

Further guidance is needed here. I still need to fit WF(lance) in there, somewhere, but not sure what I should sacrifice for it. The character took two flaws, and got Blind-Fight and Combat Expertise in exchange, and begins with Affinity with Skill (Concentration) and Sense the Unseen, both from Arcana Evolved.

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay feats. Feats feats.

That's a solid selection of useful feats you have there. Leadership is for a buffer of some sort?

Have you read this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026

And since you are in epic, you will probably want a guy who gets Epic Spellcasting from arcane, divine, and psionics if you can manage it. I forget what the actual build that gets you the earliest possible Epic Spellcasting from all three is, can someone else post it?

How are you getting Pounce as a feat?

[ericp65]

Okay feats. Feats feats.

That's a solid selection of useful feats you have there. Leadership is for a buffer of some sort?

Have you read this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026

And since you are in epic, you will probably want a guy who gets Epic Spellcasting from arcane, divine, and psionics if you can manage it. I forget what the actual build that gets you the earliest possible Epic Spellcasting from all three is, can someone else post it?

How are you getting Pounce as a feat?

Yeah, I gave him a (Cloistered) Cleric dip for access to divine spells, and he's got Totemist going for him. If Leadership feat is unnecessary (even though he's served as a cavalier commander and as a duke in a kingdom), I'll gladly replace it with something more useful.

I wonder if giving him Wild Talent, with the ability to take on physical characteristics of a big cat, would be better than the level of Bloodclaw Master. That's how I had him written back in 2nd Ed, and this would free up a level for another class level.

Gave him Pounce based on -> Prerequisites: BAB +9, Improved Charge, Combat Expertise.

Yeah, that link is what I used to follow, as best I could, the advice on optimizing PA, and the other suggestions. I want this character to come out of the "shop" being as bada** and close to optimal as he can be, while remaining true to character concept.

[Gavinfoxx]

Pounce and Improved Charge aren't feats. What book are you getting that from? It sounds 3rd party or homebrew.

Some feats that DO exist:

Two-Weapon Pounce
Catfolk Pounce.
Lion Tribe Warrior
Lion's Pounce
Bestial Charge
Rhinoceros Tribe Charge
Triceratop's Charge
Reckless Charge
Furious Charge
Headlong Rush
Powerful Charge
Greater Powerful Charge

[ericp65]

Pounce and Improved Charge aren't feats. What book are you getting that from? It sounds 3rd party or homebrew.

Some feats that DO exist:

Two-Weapon Pounce
Catfolk Pounce.
Lion Tribe Warrior
Lion's Pounce
Bestial Charge
Rhinoceros Tribe Charge
Triceratop's Charge
Reckless Charge
Furious Charge
Headlong Rush
Powerful Charge
Greater Powerful Charge

My mistake; I don't know how I got Pounce mixed up with my list of feats. Obviously, I didn't read back through my own list, either, and he doesn't have Improved Charge as a class ability, either. So, no Pounce. Combat Reflexes could replace that in the progression.

At this point, the feats I'd still like to acquire are (if all of these are feats) Knockdown, Stand Still, Evasive Reflexes, Sudden Stunning, Imperious Command, Karmic Strike, and Improved Overrun.

Already contemplating which class levels the character should take going forward, but that'll wait until I've sorted everything out up to 46th level.

[ericp65]

More retooling for class level progression and feat selection. How's this?

Factotum 1/Warblade 1 - 3/Crusader 1/Monk 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Knight 1 - 2/Cavalier 1/Kensai 1 - 8/Cavalier 2/Cloistered Cleric 1//Knight 3/Cavalier 3 - 4/Factotum 2/Bloodclaw Master 1/Swiftblade 1 - 5/Cavalier 5 - 6/Prestige Paladin 1/Master of Nine 1 - 5/Warblade 4 - 5/Factotum 3/Prestige Paladin 2/Witch Slayer 1/Totemist 1 - 2.

Improved Initiative, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana), Weapon Focus (katana), Ancestral Relic, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Dodge, Stand Still, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Travel Devotion, Leadership, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Trip, Karmic Strike, Adaptive Style, Hold the Line, Combat Reflexes, Death Blow, Knockback, Snap Kick, Shock Trooper, Mage Slayer, Shadow Striking.

Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Mounted Combat, and Weapon Finesse are bonus feats. Sav is assumed to have taken Affinity with Skill (Concentration) and Sense the Unseen as a beginning character, both from Arcana Evolved.

He wears a Drow House Insignia (Spell) that contains haste. This has been combined with a periapt of epic wisdom +12.

If this is playable as-is, I'll sort out his skill points, adjust his gear (besides his signature katana, "Wyrmcleaver"), and have him ready for play.

[ericp65]

Problem! I can't find the feats Death Blow and Shadow Striking. Which reference books contain them?

[Karnith]

Problem! I can't find the feats Death Blow and Shadow Striking. Which reference books contain them?
Death Blow can be found in Complete Adventurer, p. 106, and Shadow Striker (which I assume is what you meant?) can be found in the Player's Handbook II, p. 94.

[ericp65]

Death Blow can be found in Complete Adventurer, p. 106, and Shadow Striker (which I assume is what you meant?) can be found in the Player's Handbook II, p. 94.

Whew, thanks!

It appears that Sav can't take Death Blow, as his Knight's code prohibits him from attacking helpless foes. I'll have to pick something else instead.

Death Blow replaced by Improved Overrun :)

Shadow Striker works.

[ericp65]

Now for Sav's main gear...

Primary weapon already accounted for, but certain polearms were suggested, so I'll check into that.

Previously, I had him wearing adamantine full plate +5 with Dragon Bane and Fire Warding (50 pts). Should I add to this, or replace it? The bonus alone looks awfully low for him at this point.

[ericp65]

Still not sure what kind of armor would be best for this character, but the properties and special abilities I like so far are:

Axeblock, armor spikes, death ward, ectoplasmic feedback, hammerblock, greater healing, magic-eating, masking, nimbleness, retaliation, greater soulbound, spearblock, styptic, vanishing.

Augment crystals (will pick three to swap in and out as desired).

Strength (+4), great invulnerability, great reflection, negating.

Could all these be added to a single suit of armor? Would it be possible to add all of them to Armor of the Celestial Battalion? Double plate also looks interesting, but I don't want to weigh the character down or restrict his movements too much.

What are your thoughts and suggestions for designing a suit of armor that would best serve the needs of an epic character, who's mostly a striker, but also who casts divine spells? I'm hoping to give him great defenses against a wide array of effects.

[Sactheminions]

Weird suggestions here, but if you're 46th level you need a few things:

1. A way to dispel or avoid AMF.
2. Immunity to almost everything (you will probably prefer to sacrifice magic item slots for this rather than levels)
3. A way to win initiative, preferably even when you lose initiative.

The problem with melee-focused epic characters is that they have no answer to high level spells except saves and special abilities. At epic levels, you don't even get BAB for taking levels in martial classes! So let's think about how to get to where you need to go, with the proviso that you want to be able to cast 9th level spells with a decent caster level for CR 46.

With that in mind, I give you:

Paladin 2/Sorceror 6/Swiftblade 10/Shadowdancer 2/Mage of the Arcane Order 26

The Mage of the Arcane Order is terrible fluff-wise, unfortunately. Maybe you can say that you were a bodyguard to their high-rankers? The nice thing about this is it gives you the Celerity line of spells, which at epic level is essential to a bodyguard who doesn't want to be standing flat-footed while their charge dies horribly. Shadowdancer is just a cheap way to get Hide in Plain Sight, Evasion, and some other goodies. (cheap because it has the same feat tax as Swiftblade, essentially). I believe MotAO 26 gets you Spellpool 8; you have access to any 8th level arcane spell as a full round action. Dimensional Lock is a big one for a bodyguard.

Ftr1/Cleric4/Prestige Paladin 5/Contemplative 10/Hierophant 5/Ftr+1/Contemplative +17

Take the Good Domain and you can pop out 53rd Level Holy Word, which is fairly impressive. And you will be able to take the Good Domain because you have a total of seven Domains/Devotions.

[ericp65]

Weird suggestions here, but if you're 46th level you need a few things:

1. A way to dispel or avoid AMF.
2. Immunity to almost everything (you will probably prefer to sacrifice magic item slots for this rather than levels)
3. A way to win initiative, preferably even when you lose initiative.

The problem with melee-focused epic characters is that they have no answer to high level spells except saves and special abilities. At epic levels, you don't even get BAB for taking levels in martial classes! So let's think about how to get to where you need to go, with the proviso that you want to be able to cast 9th level spells with a decent caster level for CR 46.

With that in mind, I give you:

Paladin 2/Sorceror 6/Swiftblade 10/Shadowdancer 2/Mage of the Arcane Order 26

The Mage of the Arcane Order is terrible fluff-wise, unfortunately. Maybe you can say that you were a bodyguard to their high-rankers? The nice thing about this is it gives you the Celerity line of spells, which at epic level is essential to a bodyguard who doesn't want to be standing flat-footed while their charge dies horribly. Shadowdancer is just a cheap way to get Hide in Plain Sight, Evasion, and some other goodies. (cheap because it has the same feat tax as Swiftblade, essentially). I believe MotAO 26 gets you Spellpool 8; you have access to any 8th level arcane spell as a full round action. Dimensional Lock is a big one for a bodyguard.

Ftr1/Cleric4/Prestige Paladin 5/Contemplative 10/Hierophant 5/Ftr+1/Contemplative +17

Take the Good Domain and you can pop out 53rd Level Holy Word, which is fairly impressive. And you will be able to take the Good Domain because you have a total of seven Domains/Devotions.

That second progression is closer to the character concept, as arcane caster doesn't fit well with him, but divine caster does. Looks like I need to tear apart his build again, and represent having retrained some class levels, or else pursuing additional interests that fit the concept and improve his viability as an epic character. He acted as a cavalier for a relatively short portion of his career, during the mid to high non-epic levels, but he's always been a melee combatant more than anything else. He's the sworn protector of his friend Flagg, who is himself a powerful holy warrior and whom Sav considers his commander, but he has no problems going on missions without Flagg as well.

Gonna need some highly effective divine casting ability, then. First thing that comes to mind is to replace some Cavalier levels with Contemplative (I hadn't, er, contemplated that PrC before). Maybe scratch Totemist for now, too. This would free up five levels for Contemplative. It's getting more tricky to reassign class levels while ensuring that entry requirements are met as early as possible and BAB is kept as high as possible considering how convoluted the level progression is.

This may be too soon, but I'm already considering what classes Sav should pick up as he advances beyond 46th level. Fist of Raziel looks interesting and appropriate, and advances caster level (except for the first level).

[Gavinfoxx]

So you think he should be a divine gish?

I humbly suggest the Mystic class from Dragonlance, if you don't want to do 'Scholarly' (ie, Cleric or Cloistered Cleric, Archivist, etc.)

[ericp65]

So you think he should be a divine gish?

I humbly suggest the Mystic class from Dragonlance, if you don't want to do 'Scholarly' (ie, Cleric or Cloistered Cleric, Archivist, etc.)

Yes, mostly hitting as deadly as he can with his weapons, but also able to use divine spells to best advantage against epic foes.

I'll check out Mystic, and see if I can justify it for Sav, but he's never been to Krynn during play. I could always consider him to have done a side quest; his commander's wife has been to Krynn, and undergone the Test of High Sorcery there, so I could say he accompanied her.

[Gavinfoxx]

OR you could just reflavor Mystic as something that has nothing to do with Krynn?

Seriously, it's just a more generic favored soul for people who aren't tied to a deity.

[ericp65]

OR you could just reflavor Mystic as something that has nothing to do with Krynn?

Seriously, it's just a more generic favored soul for people who aren't tied to a deity.

Yeah, it looks appropriate to more than just one setting.

Would it be redundant to give him Mystic and Cloistered Cleric, or is there enough advantage to keep both? It appears to me that having both is better (one level of Cloistered Cleric, and then however many levels of Mystic).

[ericp65]

Latest level progression sketch (edited)...

Factotum 1/Warblade 1 - 3/Crusader 1/Warblade 4/Cavalier 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Cavalier 2/Elven Swiftblade 1/Cavalier 3/Kensai 1 - 5/Elven Swiftblade 2/Monk 1/Mystic 1/Clostered Cleric (Helm) 1/Contemplative 1/Bloodclaw Master 1/Prestige Paladin 1/Factotum 2/Warblade 5/Kensai 6/Prestige Paladin 2/Contemplative 2/Elven Swiftblade 3/Contemplative 3/Master of Nine 1 - 5/Warblade 6/Elven Swiftblade 4/Kensai 7/Elven Swiftblade 5/Kensai 8/Witch Slayer 1/Totemist 1/Contemplative 4

How does this look? Still light on divine caster levels, but I wanted to get BAB up as high as I could pre-epic (Kensai levels took a big bite out of that).

[ericp65]

I'll say Sav began exploring the spiritual side of life in an introspective way, and then dedicated himself to Helm's service later (maybe that will explain Prestige Paladin). He'll gladly work with divine agents whenever he can be of use in championing the causes of law, good, and protection.

[ericp65]

Yes, I'm still torturing myself with this rebuild *LOL*

Class levels for consideration:

Factotum (3), Fighter (4), Exotic Weapon Master (1), Knight (4), Cavalier (3), Warblade (6), Crusader (3), Witch Slayer (4), Cobra Strike Monk with Barbarian DR ACF (2), Mystic (1), Cloistered Cleric with Planar Banishment ACF (1), Contemplative (6), Prestige Paladin (3), Master of Nine (5).

Not sure what the ideal level progression should be for all these, but Factotum will be his first character level, followed by all his Fighter and Exotic Weapon Master levels, to represent time spent living in Drow society before abandoning the Underdark. Some Knight and Cavalier should be next, and after that...uncertain.

Please help to guide me on a sound class level order for this character, and thanks in advance :smallsmile:

[ericp65]

Here's the best I think I can do with this character progression. Maybe it's good enough?

Factotum 1 / Fighter 1 - 4 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Knight 1 - 3 / Cavalier 1 / Knight 4 / Cavalier 2 - 3 / Factotum 2 / Warblade 1 - 3 / Crusader 1 - 3 / Monk 1 / Mystic 1 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Contemplative 1 - 5 / Prestige Paladin 1 / Warblade 4 / Contemplative 6 / Master of Nine 1 - 5 / Factotum 3 / Sacred Fist 1 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 1* / Warblade 5 - 6 / Witch Slayer 1 - 4 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 2

* RNV refluffed for Forgotten Realms

If I can play him up to 50th level, I'll retire him at that point. He just really needs a grand finalé to his career.