So many languages, so little time.

[FrostSurf]

Hello giantitp, I was making a character for a future campaign and while looking at feats I stumbled across the feat Master Linguist from races of Eberron and decided it fit perfectly with the concept I have in mind.
Benefit
Each time you gain a level, including the level at which you select this feat, you learn a new language (as if you had spent 1 skill point on the Speak Language skill).
Now this character is a whisper gnome beguiler, so that means I will have at least a 20 Int.
So unless I'm mistaken, this means I get:
+2(Whisper Gnome)
+5(Int bonus)
+20(Master Linguist taken at level 1)
So I get a total of 27 Languages known over the course of 20 levels.
So I'm going to end up with a pretty decent chunk of the languages in D&D, but since I get most of them over time, I was wondering if certain languages are more important/valued than others?

Also, to anyone here who has played a Beguiler14/Mindbender1/Shadowcraft Mage5 or something similar, how did it go? I'm liking the idea that it's so versatile and that I can tune my power level to match the power of the other PCs.

[Hyde]

Don't forget, you could actually put ranks in speak language and have all the more languages at your command (basically all of them)

The long answer, in descending order, is "the basic racials; Infernal, Abyssal, and Celestial (for aligned summons); The Elemental Languages; the monstrous languages (Goblin, Giant, etc); Undercommon; and then maybe whatever else you have left.

The short answer is that everyone who speaks tends to speak common, comprehend languages/tongues are spells, and most DMs don't care about language puzzles, so "none, really".

[Keneth]

So you're making it even more ridiculous than it already is? I never really understood how the designers thought it was a good idea to learn a full language over the course of one level, which can be the equivalent of spending a few hours in a sewer somewhere. :smallconfused: Even a kid needs years to learn a language, much less a grown-ass man. :smallbiggrin:

That said, the whole thing becomes kind of moot after a few levels anyway. Magic, truespeech, and telepathy pretty much guarantee that there won't be any language barriers.

So what I'm trying to say is, languages only have any real value at the start of the game, and it depends largely on the setting. After that, you might as well pick at random.

[ericp65]

So you're making it even more ridiculous than it already is? I never really understood how the designers thought it was a good idea to learn a full language over the course of one level, which can be the equivalent of spending a few hours in a sewer somewhere. :smallconfused: Even a kid needs years to learn a language, much less a grown-ass man. :smallbiggrin:

True enough. It takes two years of high school French to learn all the grammar rules.

[Socratov]

well, it takes long to learn a language while not (over) exposed to another langauge. when you for instance are forced to speak that languagefor basic communication you learn thge langauge a lot quicker. And that's without seeking similar languages. for instance I know that where I used to study they would allow german students to enroll in dutch courses if they completed the language course successfully. the language course is 6 weeks in which the students are expected to eat, drink, speak, think and dream dutch to a degree where they learn to speak/read/write dutch within 3 weeks using the other 3 weeks to polish and perfect their language skills (as well as perfect pronunciation). this is (amongst other things) possible through the closeness of both Dutch and German.

And that is excluding any talent for picking up languages (like in the bard class which gives speak language as an in class skill). So it is possible

[Keneth]

So it is possible

What is? Learning a language in a couple of days without spending any time actually learning that language? Because that's what's generally happening in D&D. Personally I don't allow my players to pick up additional languages past the ones they get at the start of the game. Investing a rank into Linguistics or increasing their Intelligence score only grants them the potential to learn a new language, but they have to do so by spending weeks on rigorous studies and practical use. Kind of like you can't pick Profession skills without actually learning that profession first.

[Socratov]

What is? Learning a language in a couple of days without spending any time actually learning that language? Because that's what's generally happening in D&D. Personally I don't allow my players to pick up additional languages past the ones they get at the start of the game. Investing a rank into Linguistics or increasing their Intelligence score only grants them the potential to learn a new language, but they have to do so by spending weeks on rigorous studies and practical use. Kind of like you can't pick Profession skills without actually learning that profession first.

true it takes time, but, within the simplified world of DnD it would depend on circumstances.

Without a book or a tutor you can't actually learn it, then again, if you say in game that during downtime you will seek out someone to help you learn the language it should be possible. Even more, investing skillpoints actually represents that over the time elapsed since the last level you have been practising/using certain skills resultin gin an increase. Mechanically this might be represented in dumping skillpoints into a skill at level up, story wise it may be handled differently.

[Hyde]

true it takes time, but, within the simplified world of DnD it would depend on circumstances.

Without a book or a tutor you can't actually learn it, then again, if you say in game that during downtime you will seek out someone to help you learn the language it should be possible. Even more, investing skillpoints actually represents that over the time elapsed since the last level you have been practising/using certain skills resultin gin an increase. Mechanically this might be represented in dumping skillpoints into a skill at level up, story wise it may be handled differently.

I think his main gripe is that "between level ups" can be a very very small amount of in-game calendar time, certainly not enough to learn a language by any stretch.

That said, it could represent a much longer investment of time. If at character creation, A player said "hey, I'd like to learn some more languages other than the ones I've got" I could see a compromise being "okay, once two calendar months (or whatever) have passed, you can rank up". Or something.

Really, they're languages, a wizard sticks a brain leech into your ear that oozes languages into your brain, and no one cares because they're languages.

What are you, a truenamer?

[BWR]

I'm a big language fan, and have often torn my hair out at how easy it is to learn languages in D&D and how few there are. Sure, some settings make an effort to have more than Common/Race/Plane stuff, but for the most part it is absurdly generic and uninteresting. But languages are all over the place and polyglotism is common in most non-native English countries and probably has been for as long as humans have had multiple languages.

So whenever I run a game there are languages galore. Common is still, well, common, and usually a native tongue of some influenctial group, like English or Spanish today, French some years ago, Latin, Greek before that, etc. but there are dozens of locals dialects of said languages and usually any culture that is significantly distinct will have its own language.

When people learn a new language, especially one they do not use a lot, I rule that their accents are varying degrees of comprehensible and their grammar imperfect. Usually this is glossed over in play because having to spend 5 minutes talking to Vebjørn whose Darokinian is worse than Thor Heyerdahl's English is not fun for the players when all they want to know is how far to the next town.

On the subject of 1 point= mastery, I tinkered with a language level system similar to Ars Magica for a while. Each rank cost 1 skill point.
1 . basic words and a glimmiering of grammar (cases, tenses or equivalents)
2 - simple sentences along the lines of "how many cost this?"
3 - basic proficiency - can hold conversations and understand most of the words and get more from context, so long as you don't get too technical or far from everyday gossip.
4 - expert, can understand just about anything you come across, can do decent poetry if you put your mind to it
5 - master of the language. Can make it work for you like Chaucer, Shakespeare or similar masters, and can understand all those weird constructions they use.

This

[GreenETC]

On the subject of 1 point= mastery, I tinkered with a language level system similar to Ars Magica for a while. Each rank cost 1 skill point.
1 . basic words and a glimmiering of grammar (cases, tenses or equivalents)
2 - simple sentences along the lines of "how many cost this?"
3 - basic proficiency - can hold conversations and understand most of the words and get more from context, so long as you don't get too technical or far from everyday gossip.
4 - expert, can understand just about anything you come across, can do decent poetry if you put your mind to it
5 - master of the language. Can make it work for you like Chaucer, Shakespeare or similar masters, and can understand all those weird constructions they use.

As cool as this sort of a thing is, I don't really think this is a good way to go about it, as it requires a hefty investment from a character just to learn a language, and basically means that a low skill point character has to spend a large amount of their resources on it. On top of that, it multiplies for each language you know, which means it's probably just better to know 1-2 languages and just dump those points in Hide or Bluff and just skip past people.

As for the OP, I believe the customary first language that any D&D character should know was Drow Sign Language, for tactical silent communication.

[Zero grim]

How is learning a language in a one hour sewer crawl any different to learning History or Engineer or even developing spell casting talent and also crafting the book of spells you need with your bare hands?

I think its heavily assumed that your not learning everything just in that bit of the dungeon, its just this is the point in time where your training since the age of adulthood finally has paid off.

[BWR]

As cool as this sort of a thing is, I don't really think this is a good way to go about it, as it requires a hefty investment from a character just to learn a language, and basically means that a low skill point character has to spend a large amount of their resources on it. On top of that, it multiplies for each language you know, which means it's probably just better to know 1-2 languages and just dump those points in Hide or Bluff and just skip past people.

As for the OP, I believe the customary first language that any D&D character should know was Drow Sign Language, for tactical silent communication.

There's a reason I dumped it when starting my latest campaign. AFter all, with the setting and characters routinely violating physics with impunity, why complain about 'it's not realistic'? And it is a lot less hassle.

[Asteron]

I'm a big language fan, and have often torn my hair out at how easy it is to learn languages in D&D and how few there are. Sure, some settings make an effort to have more than Common/Race/Plane stuff, but for the most part it is absurdly generic and uninteresting. But languages are all over the place and polyglotism is common in most non-native English countries and probably has been for as long as humans have had multiple languages.

So whenever I run a game there are languages galore. Common is still, well, common, and usually a native tongue of some influenctial group, like English or Spanish today, French some years ago, Latin, Greek before that, etc. but there are dozens of locals dialects of said languages and usually any culture that is significantly distinct will have its own language.

In Forgotten Realms there are many human regional languages that I have always though of as analogous to the languages we have in our world (the other worlds are likely similar, but I am not familiar with them.) Here (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Human_languages) is a list of the various human languages in the Forgotten Realms.

I've always thought of it leveling up as a culmination of things your character has been working of for a long time. The skill point is just a mark of reaching a high enough level of proficiency with that language to be considered to speak it.

[nedz]

Being able to speak more languages can be very useful for a summoner.
When you summon some critter it will attack your enemies no problem, but to do anything more complex you need to be able to talk to it. With SNA life is easy, but SM has more choices.

[Kaeso]

What is? Learning a language in a couple of days without spending any time actually learning that language? Because that's what's generally happening in D&D. Personally I don't allow my players to pick up additional languages past the ones they get at the start of the game. Investing a rank into Linguistics or increasing their Intelligence score only grants them the potential to learn a new language, but they have to do so by spending weeks on rigorous studies and practical use. Kind of like you can't pick Profession skills without actually learning that profession first.

I think it's kind of retroactively assumed that you spent some time learning the language, just like how a lvl 2 fighter who takes a level in wizard is retroactively assumed to have studied magic in his downtime.

As for OP's question, French is always a good option :p. Besides that, I'd just go for the most common languages. Pick up elven if you live in a world highly populated by elves, and if the DM keeps throwing giants at you, the giant language might be smart to pick up.

[Lazers etcetera]

Draconic. It's the language of dragons, magic, and in one sourcebook at least, the proper name for the taxonomy of creatures and science. It's living Latin. You can even use real Latin as a substitute in cases (Draco Argento sounds so much better than Siver Dragon, yes?)

Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal. For more magical things, and outsiders - they may speak common usually, but it's best to be polite with these creatures.

Goblinoid. For the opposite reason. They tend not to speak anything else. And they have a habit of tying the party up and dragging you in chains before their warlord.

Thieves' Cant! Go old skool AD&D stylee. In reality this is probably just gibberish and slang appropriate to the setting, like Polari or Gangsta or something.

[Shining Wrath]

As cool as this sort of a thing is, I don't really think this is a good way to go about it, as it requires a hefty investment from a character just to learn a language, and basically means that a low skill point character has to spend a large amount of their resources on it. On top of that, it multiplies for each language you know, which means it's probably just better to know 1-2 languages and just dump those points in Hide or Bluff and just skip past people.

As for the OP, I believe the customary first language that any D&D character should know was Drow Sign Language, for tactical silent communication.

I did a similar thing for a 4e campaign and just gave separate skill points for language. The higher INT, the more skill points per level. Because the 4e language system is even stupider; take a feat, learn 3 languages fluently. Yesterday you spoke only common; today you speak common, elven, dwarf, and draconic, even though you have INT=8. Verisimilitude FAIL.

As for the OP, it's setting dependent. In Eberron, Giant is more important than elsewhere. In most settings, though, Gnoll is spoken by Gnolls and Flinds, and that's it. So it's probably last.

[FrostSurf]

Thanks for all of the replies guys! I assumed it was setting/game dependent, but was just checking to make sure that there wasn't a language that was universally considered better/more useful than others :smallbiggrin:.

[Greenish]

As for the OP, it's setting dependent. In Eberron, Giant is more important than elsewhere. In most settings, though, Gnoll is spoken by Gnolls and Flinds, and that's it. So it's probably last.Well, Giant is mostly for Xen'Drik, and there you'd probably want to speak Drow and Sahuagin too. In Khorvaire, Goblin probably comes right after Common.

[The Random NPC]

Don't forget Drow Sign Language.

[Lazers etcetera]

Thanks for all of the replies guys! I assumed it was setting/game dependent, but was just checking to make sure that there wasn't a language that was universally considered better/more useful than others :smallbiggrin:.

There is. Draconic.

[Bakeru]

As mentioned, Drow Sign Language, mostly because it smells (very slightly) like fine cheddar.
How so? "Drow of the Underdark", page 46: If you know Drow Sign Language, you get +2 on spellcraft to identify an enemy's spells, and the DC to identify your spells raises by 2. If you have Learn Language as class skill, this means you get 2 points for the price of 1, otherwise, it still means you can raise your spellcraft for certain tasks higher than you usually can.

So, for a caster, Drow Sign Language actually gives mechanical benefits besides "Talk to more things".

[Keneth]

Oh wow, whoever thought that rule was a good idea. :smallconfused:

[Bakeru]

Oh wow, whoever thought that rule was a good idea. :smallconfused:The reasoning is "Drow Sign Language is a lot like somatic components, so it interacts with spellcraft".
I can kind of understand the fluff - you get more used to pay attention to minuscule movements of the hands - and it's only +2 on two narrow things, but it's still stuff you get for free, in addition to the "talk in a Silence area" and "totally silent language, don't alert beings that have good ears" benefits.

[Keneth]

Yes, but now suddenly everyone is speaking drow sign language because it's a free bonus, so you might as well drop the "drow" part and just call it sign language. :smallamused:

[Hyde]

Isn't Drow Sign Language a "Secret" language and you can't take it normally?

[Keneth]

I like how secret languages in D&D seem to stay secret for no reason. What exactly is keeping the druidic language secret? Sure the druid who shares is no longer a druid, but all it really takes is one. Do druids hunt down and obliterate anyone he's come in contact with? Or do they just change their entire language and deny there ever being a previous dialect that somehow became public knowledge? :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

Isn't Drow Sign Language a "Secret" language and you can't take it normally?

DSL is a lot less plausibly secret than Druidic; any CG rebel drow can just teach it to whoever they want, and (as far as I know) they won't get hit any harder if someone finds out. And we all know just how many CG drow there are!

[Hyde]

I think DSL might be the only other secret language I've come across, besides druidic.

Besides, who would take it over cable or fiber?

[Keneth]

*badum tss*

I kinda liked the beeping/screeching modem sounds, actually. :smalltongue:

Edit: And yes, I know DSL didn't have any. I was just reminiscing of the good old dial-up times.

[Hyde]

Dial-up could be a secret language. You could call fax machines, make some screeching noises, and then spit out a coherent message on the other end.

[nedz]

I think DSL might be the only other secret language I've come across, besides druidic.

Besides, who would take it over cable or fiber?

Those other secret languages wouldn't be quite so secret if everyone knew about them.

[Bakeru]

I like how secret languages in D&D seem to stay secret for no reason. What exactly is keeping the druidic language secret? Sure the druid who shares is no longer a druid, but all it really takes is one. Do druids hunt down and obliterate anyone he's come in contact with? Or do they just change their entire language and deny there ever being a previous dialect that somehow became public knowledge? :smallbiggrin:Also, a druid can atone and be a druid again. And then there are the... one moment, have to look it up.
The Blighters, the druid-version of the Ur-Prist. They're required to be ex-druids, which means they're obviously able to speak druidic. And they suffer nothing from teaching the language to others.

And when it comes to Drow Sign Language - with all the fluff about doppelganger being able to infiltrate anywhere, shouldn't they know about this language, too? And as selfish as they're supposed to be, they'd definitely teach it to you if you paid them.

[The Random NPC]

Does anyone know where it says DSL is a secret language, I searched Drow of the Underdark for every instance of "Sign Language" and didn't find it.
EDIT: Also "secret".