RAI for Detect Magic ?

[NilsRichter]

A Warlock, a Changeling and a Ghost walk into a bar...

The curious barkeeper cast a "Detect Magic" Spell on them. What does he detect?

(I will give a longer explanation about the context of my question later, but right now I am interested in how your group /or you as DM) would handle this situation)

To clarify the setup: The Warlock has an active skill-boosting invocation, the Changeling has altered herself and the Ghost has manifested unto this material plane.

[Yora]

My oppinion is, if it's not an Extraordinary ability, then detect magic detects it. If an antimagic field does supress it, it should be magic.

[ironwizard]

The Warlock gives off an aura of the appropriate school. The changeling gives off none, but the ghost does (no school iirc).

[Keneth]

Su abilities are not detected by default, but any sane DM should probably assign at least a faint aura to Su abilities just for the sake of consistency.

[Psyren]

Su abilities are not detected by default, but any sane DM should probably assign at least a faint aura to Su abilities just for the sake of consistency.

Source? Su abilities are explicitly magical and even have a caster level. Why wouldn't Detect Magic detect them?

[supermonkeyjoe]

RAI and RAW:- nothing, Detect magic only provides rules for detecting the auras of spells or magic items:


An aura’s power depends on a spell’s functioning spell level or an item’s caster level. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.

nowhere else does it state that things other than spells or items have a magical aura, they may very well be inherently magical such as in the case of Su abilities but RAW I can't find anywhere where it states that they have a magical aura, it may be reasonable to use the same rules as for spells.

As for RAI on the changeling I seem to recall someone saying that they could be detected while actually changing but not the rest of the time.

[Vaern]

Source? Su abilities are explicitly magical and even have a caster level. Why wouldn't Detect Magic detect them?
They only have a caster level if the ability emulates a spell. A large number of supernatural abilities, such as a wight's Drain Energy and Create Spawn abilities, are simply innate properties to the creature and have no designated caster level or spell level.
The strength of auras revealed by Detect Magic is determined by the caster level of a spell or magic item. As these supernatural abilities have no caster level, they would not create a visible aura (despite supernatural abilities being described as magical).

[Telonius]

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities):


Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.

Supernatural abilities are magical and always have a caster level. They'd detect.

[Vaern]

I missed that bit. It's buried way in the back of the Monster Manual, and not even mentioned in the DMG or PHB.

Well then, I stand corrected

[only1doug]

The Warlock gives off an aura of the appropriate school. The changeling gives off none, but the ghost does (no school iirc).

I concur with this Opinion.

[Zero grim]

I would rule that it doesn't detect supernatural abilities since they don't have a school of magic and detect magic's main trick is telling what schools of magic each aura is, supernatural abilities may have caster levels but none of the abilities mentioned have a school of magic.

the fact that anti-magic field works on supernatural abilities does provide some reason to think detect magic would, but dispel magic and spell resistance both don't work on supernatural abilities, so out of the core book there's more examples of them not being like spells.

If you could detect supernatural abilities then detect magic would detect basically every single high hit dice enemy, as your race gets bigger the chance of you having at least one or two supernatural abilities gets more common.

Not to say in your example you wouldn't detect anything, all the gear and buffs from team-mates on those three would be detected by the barkeep.

[Telonius]

I don't think it's intended to detect whether or not a creature has a supernatural ability, just whether or not a supernatural ability is currently in use. A Cleric doesn't ping on Detect magic just because he has spells prepared, or the capacity to Turn Undead.

Detect Magic just tells you the presence, number, strength, and location of magical auras. The spell itself doesn't tell you what the school of magic might be; the Spellcraft skill does. And from the Spellcraft description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm):

[Spellcraft DC]15 + spell level
[Task] When casting detect magic, determine the school of magic involved in the aura of a single item or creature you can see. (If the aura is not a spell effect, the DC is 15 + one-half caster level.) No action required.

The skill description seems to assume that there are auras that are not produced by spell effects.

EDIT: That does leave open the question as to what happens if a character successfully Spellcraft's a Supernatural ability. Since it doesn't have a school, I'd say it would probably come back as either Universal or a school most closely associated with the effect. (Transmutation for Alternate Form, for example). DM call either way.

[Zero grim]

What about passive supernatural abilities then, would you say they get detected as well?

Detect magic already detects so much stuff I don't see any reason it should extended into supernatural abilities as well.

[killem2]

I only use it for active magic effects that came from actual magic spells, and magic items.

So. /shrug

I would like to mention there is a Detect Ghost, so, I don't see why detect magic gets to also work as DG in addition.

[Hunter Noventa]

I only use it for active magic effects that came from actual magic spells, and magic items.

So. /shrug

I would like to mention there is a Detect Ghost, so, I don't see why detect magic gets to also work as DG in addition.

Well you're not detecting the Ghost, you're detecting that they have a magical ability active and that's it.

[Keneth]

Source? Su abilities are explicitly magical and even have a caster level. Why wouldn't Detect Magic detect them?

Because RAW doesn't explicitly state so. The FAQ suggests that every Su should have an aura and thus be detected by the spell, and the fact that all Su abilities have effective CL would allow you to do so without much trouble, although determining the school might not be so straightforward. Still, it seems somewhat inappropriate for a cantrip to be able to detect any supernatural effect, so I generally defer this choice to the DM's discretion. Otherwise doppelgangers are out of business, especially in Pathfinder where everyone is using detect magic at will. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldonauran]

I wonder how the characters are going to react to someone casting a spell in the immediate vicinty (somatic/verbal components are bound to get their attention, unless its a spell-like ability) and suddenly paying very close attention to them (concentration).

[ericgrau]

nowhere else does it state that things other than spells or items have a magical aura, they may very well be inherently magical such as in the case of Su abilities but RAW I can't find anywhere where it states that they have a magical aura, it may be reasonable to use the same rules as for spells.
Nowhere does it state that spells have a magic aura, and even if it does it doesn't really matter. It doesn't say so in detect magic because it doesn't need to; it's not their responsibility to define everything for us like the preface to a legal document. The detect magic description does imply that magic has magic auras, though.



You detect magical auras

If it's magical, you detect it. Like I said, the concept that magic auras and magic are talking about strongly related things should be understood.

You might not always be able to distinguish aura strength though, or at least the rules aren't clear on how to do it if it's not a spell. Probably because there isn't any other good way to define it. How magical is smite evil? It is certainly is magical since it's an Su, but how magical? What's worse is that characters can gain low power (Su)s at high level if the ability is not the focus of their class. The DM has to fudge it each time, and you can't make a useful table.

I'll agree that beings capable of (Su)s won't be detected, but their active (Su)s could be detected. Same for SLAs of course.

[Bakeru]

Otherwise doppelgangers are out of business, especially in Pathfinder where everyone is using detect magic at will. :smallbiggrin:At first, I wanted to argue exactly the same thing, but then I remembered that any doppelganger (or disguising changeling) worth his salt will have bluff maxed.
"Oh, don't mind the transmutation, it's just a bit of Eagle's Splendor, you know, for the occasion."
Or: "Yes, I know. A friend of mine made Darkvision permanent on me."
Or: "What do you- Ohh. That must be the leftover duration of Water Breathing, I was swimming a few hours ago and didn't want to risk any accidents."

There's no problem being magical, you'll just have to talk your way out of it.

[ericgrau]

And at high level I don't think players won't even flinch to see auras on everything.

[Keneth]

Except you can also very easily identify spells that are in effect with a simple DC 20 + spell level Knowledge (arcana) check (in PF at least), so anyone who knows their stuff will call your bluff. And now every shapechanger and their dog needs a nondetection spell just so they don't light up like a christmas tree every time a spellcaster looks at them. :smallbiggrin:

Like I said, I prefer Su abilities to remain in the gray area.

[Bakeru]

Well, in 3.5, if only gives you the school, so that's mostly fine (the spells I used for my bluff-examples were all transmutation, and Doppelganger and Changelings (note: 3.5 Changelings are descendants of doppelganger, as opposed to PF changelings, which are half hags) obviously use those)...

But I wonder - do you have Line of Sight to an invisible creature? I hope not. Otherwise, you can walk into an empty room and identify the illusion-aura of Invisibility.
Even without line of sight, you'd know that there was something magical there which you can't see. Oh, and the spell "Disguise Self" is much harder to explain.

[Keneth]

Well, in 3.5, if only gives you the school, so that's mostly fine

In 3.5 you can use Spellcraft with the same DC to identify any spell already in place, so it's even worse because everyone maxes out Spellcraft. :smallbiggrin:

[Bakeru]

In 3.5 you can use Spellcraft with the same DC to identify any spell already in place, so it's even worse because everyone maxes out Spellcraft. :smallbiggrin:...and off to the "dysfunctional rule thread" I go...

[Psyren]

Because RAW doesn't explicitly state so.

RAW is that supernatural abilities are magic. Detect magic... detects magic. I'm not seeing the issue.



Like I said, I prefer Su abilities to remain in the gray area.

That's fine at your table but your preferences have nothing to do with RAW.

[Bhaakon]

RAW is that supernatural abilities are magic. Detect magic... detects magic. I'm not seeing the issue.

I agree with this, but I think the "gray area" arises because supernatural effects generally aren't fleshed out as completely as spells are. Specifically, their duration. Is the doppelganger's Change Shape ability a persistent supernatural effect that's active and detectable as long as the doppelganger is in an assumed form, or is it an instantaneous effect that is only active and detectable while it's actually changing form?

[Keneth]

RAW is that supernatural abilities are magic. Detect magic... detects magic. I'm not seeing the issue.

The issue being that the spell specifically calls out spells and magical items, not supernatural abilities. The rules don't elaborate on how to treat magical auras created bu Su abilities or even if they have such auras, although as mentioned earlier, the devs thought that they should, but provided only the quote for effective caster level and nothing more on the matter. Either way, the DM is going to have to adjudicate how to present the information to the player. Plus, the rules for supernatural abilities aren't as rigid as those for spells and spell-like abilities (which is why there's a distinction), so I think any DM is well within their right to treat them as they please without leaning on rule 0 too much.

But I've said in my first post already, that even though the rules don't explicitly say if or how Su abilities register, they probably should and that it's also RAI, so I don't see what you're trying to argue about here. The vagueness of the RAW? That's not gonna get us very far. :smallamused:

[Psyren]

I agree it's vague, but to make them totally undetectable would violate RAW even more. They're magic, so they're detectable - you may have to determine how they're detectable on a case-by-case basis, but there needs to be a way.

[TuggyNE]

I agree with this, but I think the "gray area" arises because supernatural effects generally aren't fleshed out as completely as spells are. Specifically, their duration. Is the doppelganger's Change Shape ability a persistent supernatural effect that's active and detectable as long as the doppelganger is in an assumed form, or is it an instantaneous effect that is only active and detectable while it's actually changing form?

That's a terrible example; it's perfectly clear (from the true seeing vulnerability, from the way Change Shape'd bits that are cut off revert, and so on) that Change Shape is continuously active (Permanent (D), in other words). It's anything but Instantaneous.

[Keneth]

I agree it's vague, but to make them totally undetectable would violate RAW even more. They're magic, so they're detectable - you may have to determine how they're detectable on a case-by-case basis, but there needs to be a way.

I never said otherwise, I was merely stating the fact that the detect magic spell makes no provisions for supernatural abilities, it merely states you detect magical auras which are determined by the spell's level or the item's caster level. There's also no rules stating supernatural abilities have auras. If the RAW was clear, there wouldn't be threads like this one on every single D&D forum out there, and an answer in the official FAQ. :smallsmile:

[Jack_Simth]

A Warlock, a Changeling and a Ghost walk into a bar...

The curious barkeeper cast a "Detect Magic" Spell on them. What does he detect?

(I will give a longer explanation about the context of my question later, but right now I am interested in how your group /or you as DM) would handle this situation)

To clarify the setup: The Warlock has an active skill-boosting invocation, the Changeling has altered herself and the Ghost has manifested unto this material plane.

Warlock abilities have a very explicit spell level, and per the definition of spell-like abilities: "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell", so that one's easy.

The changeling & the Ghost: Well, it's definitely magical, and it is Detect Magic, after all. I'd shrug, assign the default of Caster Level = Hit Dice if I don't see a definition elsewhere (a Ghost's Telekenisis, for instance, is still at caster level 12 even for a 1 hit die ghost) and treat them much like a magic item at that point.

[supermonkeyjoe]

RAW is that supernatural abilities are magic. Detect magic... detects magic. I'm not seeing the issue.


Close, but not quite, Detect magic does not detect magic itself, it explicitly detects Magical Auras, It then goes on to describe the strengths of auras given off by magical items and spells.

Are spells and magic items magical, Yes, Do they have magical auras, yes as described in the detect magic spell,

Are Su abilities magical, Yes. Do they have magical auras? Nothing says that they do, nothing says that Magical beasts have magical auras, or golems, the question isn't whether it is magical or not, the question is whether it has a magical aura, and RAW only spells, magical items, and items under the effect of the Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) spell

At the end of the day this is a level 0 spell we're talking about here, giving it the ability to detect disguised dopplegangers and other creatures with Su disguises kind of puts the damper on spells like Discern Shapechanger

[Vaern]

Are Su abilities magical, Yes. Do they have magical auras? Nothing says that they do, nothing says that Magical beasts have magical auras, or golems, the question isn't whether it is magical or not, the question is whether it has a magical aura, and RAW only spells, magical items, and items under the effect of the Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) spell

Golems have a magic aura. They're magic items. Their descriptions include requirements for construction, including an item creation feat and a minimum caster level.
They just happen to also be creatures.


At the end of the day this is a level 0 spell we're talking about here, giving it the ability to detect disguised dopplegangers and other creatures with Su disguises kind of puts the damper on spells like Discern Shapechanger

Yes, it is a level 0 spell. You're giving it too much credit. All it would tell you is that there's something magical about the creature. You wouldn't point it someone, detect a magic aura, and instantly be able to identify that it's a doppleganger. The aura, if it had one, would not even be of a discernible school of magic. You could just as easily be detecting a vampire's damage reduction.
And even if you did somehow determine that it is a creature which has assumed a form other than its own, who's to say that it isn't a dragon using its Alternate Form ability or something?

[Telonius]

It also takes a pretty long time to get anything specific. "Pardon me, sir or madam, would you mind staying in my line of sight, and not moving out of the quarter-circle directly in front of me, for the next 18 seconds? Also, I'd prefer for nothing to happen that might break my concentration."

[supermonkeyjoe]

Golems have a magic aura. They're magic items. Their descriptions include requirements for construction, including an item creation feat and a minimum caster level.
They just happen to also be creatures.


Their description does refer to them as magic items a couple of times, interesting, would you allow Disjunction as a save-or-die for golems then?

I agree that having to concentrate for 3 rounds and make a spellcraft check to get any info is a limit on the spell but if you buff detect magic to see the auras of things other than magic items and spells then you're either increasing the potency of Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm) (which makes no mention of detecting supernatural abilities) or making detect magic better for locating creatures with Su abilities

[kabreras]

Golems have a magic aura. They're magic items. Their descriptions include requirements for construction, including an item creation feat and a minimum caster level.
They just happen to also be creatures.

Their construction is considered the same as a magic item, they are considered magic items while beeing constructed, once animated they become creatures no longer magic items

[Phelix-Mu]

So, there is clearly still a RAW/RAI issue here. The main issue, in terms of how the game works that I can see is pretty much crystallized in the doppelganger question. Stealth at high levels, which is almost always assisted by magic, now has another big Achilles' heel. Yes, against a single target the time needed to concentrate on the spell is a bit of a drawback (yay, schism), but the real problem is sneaking into areas guarded by multiple creatures that would have this or similar magic-detection up more-or-less constantly (the list of eligible outsiders is going to be quite long...more functionality for some summons, no doubt).

In other words, this just reinforces that using magic without being a caster is just a bad idea; casters do it better, faster, and have max Spellcraft.

Possible workarounds:
- Just kit stealth creatures with EX stuff. Frankly, I don't mind making some of this sneaky stuff non-magical.

- Make SU countermeasures standard for things like doppelgangers and such, undetectable aura, non-sucky nondetection, etc.

- Rewrite detect magic so that it explicitly only works for items and spells. Or rewrite Spellcraft or rewrite the SU thing in the back of MM so that the effects don't interact in this way.