Any good ideas to optimize Spellwarp Sniper?

[gr8artist]

Spellwarp Sniper looks like a decent class, but I can't think of any good reason to take it. Yeah, the ability to negate the Ref save on the hard hitting spells is great, but the spell-level restriction means you need a serious investment in levels that doesn't seem to pay off.
Any ideas from PF r 3.5 are welcome. I'm looking to optimize damage using sneak attack with ray spells for extra dice, and including some +x/die benefits. Ideas?

[Karnith]

It requires a 4-level investment in the class, but Wings of Flurry (Sorcerer 4, from Races of the Dragon) deals 1d6/caster level uncapped force damage and depending on your reading of Spellwarp will have a no-save daze effect tacked on when you use it as a ray. Frost Breath (Sorc/Wiz 2, Spell Compendium) is a similar lower-level spell (that does significantly worse damage) that can get a free daze with Spellwarp. Great Thunderclap (Sorc/Wiz 3, Spell Compendium) isn't so hot for getting sneak attack damage, but it does auto-prone enemies and make them save against two other effects (Will versus 1-round stun and Fort versus 1-minute deafness).

You'll probably also want to look into the Craven feat (from Champions of Ruin), which gets you +1 damage per character level on sneak attacks.

You may also want to have a look at this guide on spellcasters who use sneak attack (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240).

[Flickerdart]

Split Ray is a lot cheaper level-wise than Twin Spell, and there's another metamagic feat that lets you keep firing a ray for another round for free, so ray spells are definitely meta-friendlier than other spells.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Spellwarp Sniper looks like a decent class, but I can't think of any good reason to take it. Yeah, the ability to negate the Ref save on the hard hitting spells is great, but the spell-level restriction means you need a serious investment in levels that doesn't seem to pay off.
Legacy Champion/Bloodline/Uncanny Trickster tricks can push the effective class level beyond the number of levels in the class.

But for the most part, the best Spellwarp Sniper builds tend to just use SWS as spacer levels during Unseen Seer progression (whose advanced learning feature benefits careful timing in the class's actual level progression).

The staple is Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 7/Spellwarp Sniper or Arcane Trickster 5/Unseen Seer 3 with Persist Spell, Practiced Spellcaster, Craven, Uncanny Forethought, and a familiar, persisting hunter's eye and cloud of knives and casting either nightstalker's transformation or imbue familiar with spell ability on the familiar. Base combined SA/Sudden Strike damage is 7d6 from levels +8d6 from Persistent Hunter's Eye (requires 1 extra CL boost, let's say from the Create Magic Tattoo spell) +20 from Craven + 4d6 from gear (Mantle of the Predator, Rogue's Vest, Bracer of the Hunter) for a total 19d6+20 SA per attack (and the familiar gets 8d6 SA with either spellcasting or an extra 3d6 SA damage) with a free action attack each round from cloud of knives (the familiar gets one too). Uncanny Forethought allows spells to be cast as full round actions, which sidesteps the limit on precision damage in volley attacks, which makes things all kinds of silly.

[Story]

You might be able to get in without losing levels by getting an item that grants Assassin's Stance. Alternatively, you can get it by spending two feats, but feats are precious.

[gr8artist]

Where do you get the "casting spells as a full-round action gets around the sneak attack/volley rule?"

[Agincourt]

Split Ray is a lot cheaper level-wise than Twin Spell, and there's another metamagic feat that lets you keep firing a ray for another round for free, so ray spells are definitely meta-friendlier than other spells.

What's the name of this other metamagic feat and which book is it from?

[Piggy Knowles]

My favorite Spellwarp Sniper build is the #1 Snoipah (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29367765/). The final build stub is Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5, with the following feats and spell list list:


FEATS:
1. Spellthief1- Able Learner, Point Blank Shot
2. Sorcerer1-
3. Sorcerer2- Versatile Spellcaster
4. Sorcerer3-
5. Sorcerer4-
6. Unseen Seer1- Master Spellthief
7. Unseen Seer2- Silent Spell
8. Spellwarp Sniper1-
9. Spellwarp Sniper2- Mobile Spellcasting
10. Spellwarp Sniper3- Precise Shot
11. Spellwarp Sniper4-
12. Unseen Seer3- Practiced Spellcaster
13. Unseen Seer4-
14. Unseen Seer5-
15. Unseen Seer6- Sanctum Spell
16. Unseen Seer7-
17. Unseen Seer8-
18. Unseen Seer9- Darkstalker
19. Unseen Seer10-
20. Spellwarp Sniper5-

SPELLS:

Lesser Orb of Cold, Sniper's Shot, True Strike, Golem Strike, Grease, Grave Strike*, Vine Strike*
Scorching Ray, Dimension Hop, Levitate, Cloud of Knives, Heroics, Hunter's Eye
Scintillating Sphere, Shadow Phase, Melf's Unicorn Arrow, Alter Fortune
Blast of Flame, Improved Invisibility, Evard's Black Tentacles, Orb of Force
Moonbow, Greater Blink, Dragonsight, Cyclonic Blast,
Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, Acid Storm, Disintegrate
Spell Matrix, Project Image, Forcecage
Polar Ray, Moment of Prescience, Chain Dispel
Eye of Power, Time Stop



It's worth checking the original thread, because they break down the abilities by level and show how the build progresses when playing it in an actual game. The build itself is by RadicalTaoist, and while I'm usually not a huge fan of sorcerer bases on things, I've got to admit this one is pretty classy. If I were to play a Spellwarp Sniper, it would probably be some variation on this.

[Snowbluff]

Eldritch Theurge is a good idea. They can get Vitriolic Blast, which can be applied to spell-warped spell to remove the SR.


It requires a 4-level investment in the class, but Wings of Flurry (Sorcerer 4, from Races of the Dragon) deals 1d6/caster level uncapped force damage and depending on your reading of Spellwarp will have a no-save daze effect tacked on when you use it as a ray. Frost Breath (Sorc/Wiz 2, Spell Compendium) is a similar lower-level spell (that does significantly worse damage) that can get a free daze with Spellwarp. Great Thunderclap (Sorc/Wiz 3, Spell Compendium) isn't so hot for getting sneak attack damage, but it does auto-prone enemies and make them save against two other effects (Will versus 1-round stun and Fort versus 1-minute deafness).

Strictly speaking, you have to fail a save to Daze from the Wings of Flurry. The reflex for half only affects the damage. If it said "Deals x Damage and Daze the Target... Save prevents Daze and halves damage" or something similiar, it would work. The uncapped force damage is pretty sweet.

[Darrin]

Where do you get the "casting spells as a full-round action gets around the sneak attack/volley rule?"

Rules Compendium p. 42:

"A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group."

Thus, some people believe that if a sorcerer adds metamagic to a spell, causing its casting time to go up to a full-round action, then precision damage applies to all rays/projectiles/etc.

Personally, I consider it a confusing and bogus rule. "separate attack rolls = separate precision damage" is more consistent and easier to remember.

[Raendyn]

Spellwarp Sniper looks like a decent class, but I can't think of any good reason to take it. Yeah, the ability to negate the Ref save on the hard hitting spells is great, but the spell-level restriction means you need a serious investment in levels that doesn't seem to pay off.
Any ideas from PF r 3.5 are welcome. I'm looking to optimize damage using sneak attack with ray spells for extra dice, and including some +x/die benefits. Ideas?

SWS is broken, and if you cant find what spells to turn into rays
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9235.0

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Strictly speaking, you have to fail a save to Daze from the Wings of Flurry. The reflex for half only affects the damage. If it said "Deals x Damage and Daze the Target... Save prevents Daze and halves damage" or something similiar, it would work. The uncapped force damage is pretty sweet.I think we're delving into some real RAW silliness.
Even if the original spell allowed a Reflex save to reduce or negate its effect, the ray does not.
Creatures that fail the Reflex save are also dazed for 1 round.I had read it that you just get dazed, no save. You're saying that the creature gets no reflex save at all, and therefore can't fail the save.

I now think it's much more convoluted than either of those.

If the original spell allowed a Reflex save to reduce or negate its effect, the ray does not. You still get a save, but it is not allowed to reduce or negate the effect.

Whenever you attempt an action that has some chance of failure, you roll a twenty-sided die (d20). To determine if your character succeeds at a task you do this:

Roll a d20.
Add any relevant modifiers.
Compare the result to a target number.
If the result equals or exceeds the target number, your character succeeds. If the result is lower than the target number, you fail.So the creature rolls his save, takes full damage no matter what, and gets dazed on a save whose result is lower than the DC. Of course, one could interpret this as a saving throw reducing/negating the effect of the spell, depending on how you read that line of text...

[Draz74]

The staple is Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 7/Spellwarp Sniper or Arcane Trickster 5/Unseen Seer 3 with Persist Spell, Practiced Spellcaster, Craven, Uncanny Forethought, and a familiar, persisting hunter's eye and cloud of knives and casting either nightstalker's transformation or imbue familiar with spell ability on the familiar.
A fifth Wizard level might be worthwhile for the Spontaneous Divination ACF. This has much of the same benefit of Uncanny Forethought, and arguably also might make persisting Hunter's Eye unnecessary, so it saves you a number of resources.


My favorite Spellwarp Sniper build is the #1 Snoipah (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29367765/). The final build stub is Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5, with the following feats and spell list list:


FEATS:
1. Spellthief1- Able Learner, Point Blank Shot
2. Sorcerer1-
3. Sorcerer2- Versatile Spellcaster
4. Sorcerer3-
5. Sorcerer4-
6. Unseen Seer1- Master Spellthief
7. Unseen Seer2- Silent Spell
8. Spellwarp Sniper1-
9. Spellwarp Sniper2- Mobile Spellcasting
10. Spellwarp Sniper3- Precise Shot
11. Spellwarp Sniper4-
12. Unseen Seer3- Practiced Spellcaster
13. Unseen Seer4-
14. Unseen Seer5-
15. Unseen Seer6- Sanctum Spell
16. Unseen Seer7-
17. Unseen Seer8-
18. Unseen Seer9- Darkstalker
19. Unseen Seer10-
20. Spellwarp Sniper5-

SPELLS:

Lesser Orb of Cold, Sniper's Shot, True Strike, Golem Strike, Grease, Grave Strike*, Vine Strike*
Scorching Ray, Dimension Hop, Levitate, Cloud of Knives, Heroics, Hunter's Eye
Scintillating Sphere, Shadow Phase, Melf's Unicorn Arrow, Alter Fortune
Blast of Flame, Improved Invisibility, Evard's Black Tentacles, Orb of Force
Moonbow, Greater Blink, Dragonsight, Cyclonic Blast,
Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, Acid Storm, Disintegrate
Spell Matrix, Project Image, Forcecage
Polar Ray, Moment of Prescience, Chain Dispel
Eye of Power, Time Stop



It's worth checking the original thread, because they break down the abilities by level and show how the build progresses when playing it in an actual game. The build itself is by RadicalTaoist, and while I'm usually not a huge fan of sorcerer bases on things, I've got to admit this one is pretty classy. If I were to play a Spellwarp Sniper, it would probably be some variation on this.
Dipping Ninja instead of Spellthief, and taking Ascetic Mage instead of Master Spellthief, is also an option. It might be a hair weaker, but you get the novelty of actually using Ninja in an optimized build. :smalleek:

You can also change race to Kobold and use Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to get another level of spellcasting.

On the spell list, aside from the question of whether to include Wings of Flurry, I have one quibble: why would an Unseen Seer ever not pick Guidance of the Avatar as one of its Advanced Learning spells?


Strictly speaking, you have to fail a save to Daze from the Wings of Flurry. The reflex for half only affects the damage. If it said "Deals x Damage and Daze the Target... Save prevents Daze and halves damage" or something similiar, it would work. The uncapped force damage is pretty sweet.


I think we're delving into some real RAW silliness.I had read it that you just get dazed, no save. You're saying that the creature gets no reflex save at all, and therefore can't fail the save.

I now think it's much more convoluted than either of those.

If the original spell allowed a Reflex save to reduce or negate its effect, the ray does not. You still get a save, but it is not allowed to reduce or negate the effect.
So the creature rolls his save, takes full damage no matter what, and gets dazed on a save whose result is lower than the DC. Of course, one could interpret this as a saving throw reducing/negating the effect of the spell, depending on how you read that line of text...

... OK, I was a big fan of the Wings of Flurry trick for a higher-op game, but now I'm just confused about whether it works at all. :smallfrown:

[Piggy Knowles]

On the spell list, aside from the question of whether to include Wings of Flurry, I have one quibble: why would an Unseen Seer ever not pick Guidance of the Avatar as one of its Advanced Learning spells?

In the thread itself, RadicalTaoist fully acknowledges that Vine Strike is not actually the best Advanced Learning option, because of how rare plant creatures are. But he also says that he chose it because the build prides itself on being able to kill everyone it meets. You could easily sub it out for GotA if you wanted, though.

Regarding Wings of Flurry, I didn't even think about it as an option personally, because I always assumed that if you took away the save, you couldn't get the dazing effect. Without that, there are way better spells to spellwarp, especially on a build that uses Sanctum Spell to pull in 6th-level spells to warp. So I can't say I even noticed its absence on the build. It might be worth posting something on the original thread asking about it, though.

By the way, I think that Divine Insight is honestly a better spell than GotA for anyone who can cast it naturally. Yes, the bonus is smaller, but the fact that you can pre-cast it hours in advance and have it ready to use without spending an action is the clincher for me. The exception, of course, is if you can only get it at a low caster level (whether because you're low level or because you're casting it off a wand).

Also, GotA is from a pretty dubious source - a web article in 2001 that was never subsequently included in a book, updated for 3.5, or ever mentioned again. It's the same source as the ill-conceived Mirror Move spell. I'd be lying if I said I'd never used it, but I always feel a little dirty when I do...

[gr8artist]

Next question, a little weird: Do you have to deal damage to get sneak attack damage?
Great thunderclap, as listed, deals no damage. But if I make it into a ray, does it become eligible for SA?
My gut response is "no, heck no" but then I considered DR vs weak characters. A high level rogue with 6d6 SA can attack with a dagger for 1d4 dam against someone with plenty of DR, because he includes the SA with any existing damage prior to checking DR. So couldn't the same work with spells, treating them as damaging spells that just don't overcome DR?

If not, then what if I take weapon specialization or something of the like to get a little damage with my rays. Then I can, right?

[Flickerdart]

Next question, a little weird: Do you have to deal damage to get sneak attack damage?
Great thunderclap, as listed, deals no damage. But if I make it into a ray, does it become eligible for SA?
My gut response is "no, heck no" but then I considered DR vs weak characters. A high level rogue with 6d6 SA can attack with a dagger for 1d4 dam against someone with plenty of DR, because he includes the SA with any existing damage prior to checking DR. So couldn't the same work with spells, treating them as damaging spells that just don't overcome DR?

If not, then what if I take weapon specialization or something of the like to get a little damage with my rays. Then I can, right?
The precise rule is "any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage" so no, you may not get SA on spells that have attack rolls but not damage. You also can't apply Specialization to those spells - Ranged Spell Specialization specifies damage-dealing spells, and Weapon Specialization gives a +2 bonus on damage rolls, which you never make if you deal no damage to start with.

[gr8artist]

Well poop.
Next question: If I use something that deals ability damage as a ray, the sneak attack applies as negative energy HP damage, right? So it then becomes a damage dealing spell? Would RSS/WS give it the extra +2 damage then?
I know I'm nitpicking, but I'm curious.

[Flickerdart]

You can't apply SA to anything you can't apply Specialization to, but I think ability damage counts as damage for this purpose.

[gr8artist]

Excellent. Ranged spell specialization specifies spells that deal HP damage, so RAI they obviously didn't want you doing it with ability damage. However, if my spell deals both types of damage, I don't see anything specifying which roll I can benefit... Oh RAW, you so silly.
Weapon specialization has no such specification, but requires Ftr 4, which is bad for this build unless you take the SA ftr variant from UA.

[Draz74]

By the way, I think that Divine Insight is honestly a better spell than GotA for anyone who can cast it naturally. Yes, the bonus is smaller, but the fact that you can pre-cast it hours in advance and have it ready to use without spending an action is the clincher for me. The exception, of course, is if you can only get it at a low caster level (whether because you're low level or because you're casting it off a wand).
I'd agree, if DI didn't require an action like you say. It requires an immediate action to activate (unless there's a SpC updated version that I'm forgetting about). So with that, I'd still lean towards GotA being better overall, although of course it depends on caster level. (At CL 13 ... DI is probably better even though its bonus is a whopping 2 less.)

But this is all nitpicking. Long story short, yes, Divine Insight is another fantastic option for Unseen Seers instead of GotA.


Also, GotA is from a pretty dubious source - a web article in 2001 that was never subsequently included in a book, updated for 3.5, or ever mentioned again. It's the same source as the ill-conceived Mirror Move spell. I'd be lying if I said I'd never used it, but I always feel a little dirty when I do...
Yeah ... me too. But I thought the options being discussed in this thread were high-powered enough that I should point out GotA as an option. :smalltongue: