Anti-Paladin (Pathfinder)

[Valdras]

So,

After some more thought I realized the whole cleric/rogue I wanted to be was actually an Anti Paladin.

Anyone have any advice on building one?

I figured I would be RPing someone who attempts to show people the error of their ways and release them from their petty sins, like Virtue, Charity and Honour.

I've been okay'd as a Dhampir, so I'm sticking with that, I am just a little stumped with what god to go with. Any suggestions?

I was also considering becoming a Holy Vindicator, but it would mean the god would be CE and I would have to use it's favoured weapon.

Also, any idea what to do combat wise? sword and board or two handed?

[Callin]

List of Pathfinder Gods with War Domain. (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Category:War_domain_deities)

I personally like Gorum. Played an Inquisitor who worshiped him. Tons of Fun.

[AttilaTheGeek]

First and foremost: Make sure there is not a Paladin in the party.

Yes, that happened.

Yes, they fought to the death.

The positive paladin won, because Lay on Hands on self is a swift action, but Touch of Corruption is a standard action.

[kardar233]

I really don't know how to go about playing a character who has literally sworn themselves to causing evil and mayhem in a party environment, unless the rest of the party is evil themselves which doesn't seem like it's the case. You'd have to have some kind of reason to get along with your party, which is hard as an Antipaladin has an obligation to bring down and corrupt any Good people he comes across. He could be working towards some common goal, but there would have to be a reason to stick with these guys rather than others.

The only way I can imagine a halfway reasonable person as an Antipaladin is as some kind of extreme Social Darwinist, who believes that it's his job to make sure that only the most powerful and driven people survive.

[Keneth]

For one, ask the GM to loosen the alignment restriction to "any evil". Then pick an ultimate evil goal. So long as everything you do furthers your plan towards this goal, you should be able to keep your abilities (end will justify the means). If the party decides to do something entirely altruistic, find a way to profit from the situation, without screwing the party over.

Playing both paladins and antipaladins is always a pain because of their restrictive code. I never liked the whole concept, and personally I don't force my players to play these classes as black and white because it's no fun at all.

[kardar233]

For one, ask the GM to loosen the alignment restriction to "any evil". Then pick an ultimate evil goal. So long as everything you do furthers your plan towards this goal, you should be able to keep your abilities (end will justify the means). If the party decides to do something entirely altruistic, find a way to profit from the situation, without screwing the party over.

Playing both paladins and antipaladins is always a pain because of their restrictive code. I never liked the whole concept, and personally I don't force my players to play these classes as black and white because it's no fun at all.

Also, this. I find Lawful Evil characters much easier to play especially in a party setting as their adherence to their personal codes means it's easier to fit one into a party that's generally north of Neutral (sworn an oath of service to the leader or similar) and "take over the world" is a perfectly good long-term goal.

[Dissonance]

Back on topic, if your making an antipaladin, you should be getting all martial weapons anyway. So that choice is pretty moot.

As for what god you should dedicate yourself to, I prefer to go with either the Reaper of Reputation or Lamashtu.
- Reaper of Reputation: think NE Man behind the man evil guy with a penchant for secrecy. An antipaladin with this guy could possibly keep his true nature concealed in the short term. Also gives the paladin an excuse to play smart and not Chaotic Stupid.
- Lamashtu: Classic "mother of all evil" diety. DND had Lolth, PF gets her. Unpredictable, ruthless, and undeniably evil, she fits the bill wonderfully for an aspiring antipaladin.

Finally we come to the fighting style. I personally think that antipaladins can find their time well spent two handing a weapon. Funtionally you will be dealing out massive damage on full attacks and locking down with your cruelties and intimidate until you can manuever yourself into the ANNIHILATION zone (also known as withing melee reach of an antipaladin). Also the most thematically appropriate since watching the guy in black full plate unsheath a greatsword is absolutely terrifying. (more so than if it was just a shield.)

alternatively the sword and board option isn't a bad one. The main problems of sword and boarding (neutered dmg and smart enemies won't focus you) is offset by the fact your a freaking antipaladin. Basically the idea is to optimize yourself into a tank that works like a walking debuff. Your damage will still be there, In the form of channel, touch of corruption, cruelties, and smite.

[kardar233]

Also the most thematically appropriate since watching the guy in black full plate unsheath a greatsword is absolutely terrifying. (more so than if it was just a shield.)

Au contraire.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7507/tzeentchianknight.jpg

THF is probably mechanically best, though.

[NamelessNPC]

I was also considering becoming a Holy Vindicator, but it would mean the god would be CE and I would have to use it's favoured weapon.

Also, any idea what to do combat wise? sword and board or two handed?

What has Holy Vindicator have to do with alignment?

In any case, Holy Vindicator has some cool AC bonus to shields and some bonus to damage (Stigmata and Channel Smite) so maybe (and it's a huge maybe) sword&board can be effective

[Valdras]

Holy Vindicator has the requirement of you must match your God's Alignment.

We are playing an evil campaign, so everyone is evil, and I think that Norgorber, well The Reaper of Reputations, will fit well.

I might even wear shiny white armour and masquerade as a proper Paladin, just so I can corrupt people and blow their tiny minds.

I intend to max the charisma, so lots of manipulation.

[ArcturusV]

I really don't know how to go about playing a character who has literally sworn themselves to causing evil and mayhem in a party environment, unless the rest of the party is evil themselves which doesn't seem like it's the case. You'd have to have some kind of reason to get along with your party, which is hard as an Antipaladin has an obligation to bring down and corrupt any Good people he comes across. He could be working towards some common goal, but there would have to be a reason to stick with these guys rather than others.

The only way I can imagine a halfway reasonable person as an Antipaladin is as some kind of extreme Social Darwinist, who believes that it's his job to make sure that only the most powerful and driven people survive.

It's quite easy. The "Evil Party Member" in a neutral/good party isn't QUITE as hard to pull off as people tend to make it out to be. As long as you don't have an insanely specific and stupid code you have to stick to. Like the Paladin of Slaughter in 3.5...

The key to to remove "Evil" from "Stupid" in the minds of players. Which is hard mostly because books and adventure modules have everyone who is actually evil also incredibly stupid. Baron Pineapple level of stupid. But to borrow something a good guy said, "Hello, Paladin, not stupid.", also applies to Evil.

You are, by your very presence and working together in good faith with your team corrupting them. You have your own goals. Unless you are kinda dumb, you should realize that having people who trust you and are willing to stand by your side in the thick of it is an asset, regardless of their misguided ways.

You have your evil goals however. You should go to accomplish them whenever you can. Take a longer view of things. And never betray your party. So don't go around and kill and orphan because "Pssh, what ELSE was I gonna do?!", or slit the throats of your teammates because "Hey... he had 500 GP and I wanted it".

You pick a long term goal. You keep your eyes on the goal. You subtly maneuver your party towards that goal. You fight by their side with honor, you defend your teammates, etc. It gets to a point where, because you've been a good ally and didn't shank them in their sleep... they'll be on your side when the **** hits the fan. When someone discovers your "evil" plans and tries to stop you?

The party will stand by your side, even defend you. And when THAT happens. You've corrupted them. You're still evil. You're still going towards your world domination plot or whatever. They are aiding you in your dark deeds. They are fighting off would be defenders of good.

That's how you play things like Dark Paladins, Evil Clerics, etc, in a mostly good party. And there's (almost) never a problem with the party self destructing like most people think is guaranteed to happen the moment you say "Alignment: _____ Evil."

[NamelessNPC]

Holy Vindicator has the requirement of you must match your God's Alignment.



Where are you getting that from? It's not on the SRD or the PRD. Neither is any kind of obligation to wield your deity's favored weapon

[kardar233]

It's quite easy. The "Evil Party Member" in a neutral/good party isn't QUITE as hard to pull off as people tend to make it out to be. As long as you don't have an insanely specific and stupid code you have to stick to. Like the Paladin of Slaughter in 3.5...

The key to to remove "Evil" from "Stupid" in the minds of players. Which is hard mostly because books and adventure modules have everyone who is actually evil also incredibly stupid. Baron Pineapple level of stupid. But to borrow something a good guy said, "Hello, Paladin, not stupid.", also applies to Evil.

You are, by your very presence and working together in good faith with your team corrupting them. You have your own goals. Unless you are kinda dumb, you should realize that having people who trust you and are willing to stand by your side in the thick of it is an asset, regardless of their misguided ways.

You have your evil goals however. You should go to accomplish them whenever you can. Take a longer view of things. And never betray your party. So don't go around and kill and orphan because "Pssh, what ELSE was I gonna do?!", or slit the throats of your teammates because "Hey... he had 500 GP and I wanted it".

You pick a long term goal. You keep your eyes on the goal. You subtly maneuver your party towards that goal. You fight by their side with honor, you defend your teammates, etc. It gets to a point where, because you've been a good ally and didn't shank them in their sleep... they'll be on your side when the **** hits the fan. When someone discovers your "evil" plans and tries to stop you?

The party will stand by your side, even defend you. And when THAT happens. You've corrupted them. You're still evil. You're still going towards your world domination plot or whatever. They are aiding you in your dark deeds. They are fighting off would be defenders of good.

That's how you play things like Dark Paladins, Evil Clerics, etc, in a mostly good party. And there's (almost) never a problem with the party self destructing like most people think is guaranteed to happen the moment you say "Alignment: _____ Evil."

I totally get all this. However, like you say, "As long as you don't have an insanely specific and stupid code you have to stick to" which is too often the case.

I've played several Evil characters in otherwise Good parties (including one Paladin of Tyranny who pretended to be LG, without ever outright lying) and I have to say it does require some more work. Many of those characters have asked themselves "why don't I ditch/murder these guys and go find people a bit more like me" and I've had to have an answer for that. Whether it's "these are the best around, so I should stick with them", "I'm working on corrupting this guy" or "I actually like these people despite our philosophical differences", having a reason is very important.

I don't often play Chaotic Evil characters as I feel the need to maintain a certain amount of distance between me and my character, so my views are skewed towards the Lawful Evil side of things.

[ArcturusV]

Or as simple as "Don't throw away the pawns I DO have for ones I MIGHT get later." :smallamused:

[Valdras]

Where are you getting that from? It's not on the SRD or the PRD. Neither is any kind of obligation to wield your deity's favored weapon

I have no idea what the hell I was talking about, as I thought I read it right and it turns out 2am is not the right time to be reading rules.

I do imagine him as considering his party as tools to be corrupted and used. Convert them into loyal thralls to do his bidding, to join his eventual kingdom, where lies, secrets and backstabbing rule, all for the glory of Norgorber

[Chained Birds]

As a person who actually likes to play Paladins (Especially with their silly codes of conduct), playing an Anti-Paladin would only mean to reverse my ideals and reasoning.

Should I show mercy to this previously violent, neutral adversary?
Pally = Yes: As I can maybe change him to the side of good.
Anti = No: Mercy will only give him time to later stab us in the back (I know I would).

Should we give out free healz to these neutrals asking for help?
Pally = Yes: You should never turn down the opportunity to aid people. A second chance may be all they need to turn to the side of good.
Anti = No: Charity will only lead to a dependence on others. The weak weather the hardships to become strong and prove they are worthy enough to heal, or die.

Of course nothing is every truly Yes or No in D&D, but at least this is how I think if I were playing an Anti-Pally or Evil dude in general.

[Kudaku]

Ask your DM if you can use the Touch of Corruption ability on yourself as a swift action. ToC is the evil version of Lay on Hands, so it's not particularly unreasonable. With negative energy affinity from Dhampir your survivability will skyrocket.

[DuncanMacleod]

That's the thing with Anti-Paladins, they're really not the opposite of Paladins at all when it comes to sticking to a code.

Paladins literally aren't allowed to willfully do an evil act even if doing so might further the cause of good overall. Anti-Paladins can do what the **** they like so long as it furthers evil in the long run.

Now, as an Anti-Paladin, it seems that by hanging out with this bunch of rubes and agreeing with them I'm gaining levels, making me, in the long run, a more powerful force for evil. I can literally do what the **** I like until hanging with these guys stops gaining me advantage. Certainly if I'm chaotic evil.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You could be a pimp daddy (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3518.0)...