What PrC to Ban [e6]

[Evard]

I told a pal that I would post to get some help to make a list of PrC to ban in an E6 game that has a houserule.

Houserule is as follows.

Each PC at level 1 gains an ability called "Prestigious Adventurer" which allows them to gestalt with one prestige class even though they currently (and may never) meet the prerequisites for.

Starting at 2nd level and again at 4th and 6th you may gestalt your PC with the PrC chosen at level 1.

Example:

Grog the Barbarian chose "Dragon Disciple" as his PrC. At 2nd level he gestalts the 1st level of Dragon disciple with the 2nd level of barbarian, at 4th level he gestalts the 2nd level of dragon disciple, and 6th level he gestalts the 3rd level of dragon disciple with Barbarian.

Linda the Wizard chose "Shadow Dancer" as her PrC.

Etc..

So what list of PrC would be good to ban?

My list so far has Archmage and a few other PrC BUT I realized that 3 lvls of PrC doesn't really get into their good stuff (incantrix just doesn't work at low levels).

Thanks in advance :)

[The Glyphstone]

Anything whose prerequisites could only be met at 10+ level under normal circumstances. Archmage, Sublime Chord, Magelord...

[Amnestic]

Anima Mage would be one, I think. Going into that as an Arcane Caster would give you full caster progression plus 4th level Binding abilities. Other theurgic classes might have the same issue.

I'd look at the tier list for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) to get a decent list of relative power and consider how gestalting four levels of each, free of pre-reqs, would affect your balance.

As a rule though it's got serious potential for sneaky tricks.

Is there any list of allowed content or is it "all published 3.x stuff" sort of thing?

[eggynack]

How would this work with master of many forms? It seems like it'd be pretty powerful, but it's unclear if you would be able to even become an animal at all. It's an odd thing. It's definitely worth considering, given that you get large wildshape at level 4.

[dascarletm]

That is a really cool idea btw. I'd look into all the 5 level prc's and make sure they don't do anything too crazy. Anything that gives SLAs that are higher than 3rd level spells I'd be wary of.

[Jack Zander]

You'll want to ban anything that progresses casting, or maybe just turn that feature itself off. That is, unless you want your wizard/loremaster to have access to 5th level spells, something not normally allowed in E6.

[eggynack]

You'll want to ban anything that progresses casting, or maybe just turn that feature itself off. That is, unless you want your wizard/loremaster to have access to 5th level spells, something not normally allowed in E6.
I would assume that the casting prestige classes would be treated as base classes for this purpose. At level 6, you cast as a 6th level wizard, and as a 3rd level loremaster. You'd get a good pile of spells, but no high level ones. It'd be like gestalting wizard and sorcerer.

[Jack Zander]

I would assume that the casting prestige classes would be treated as base classes for this purpose. At level 6, you cast as a 6th level wizard, and as a 3rd level loremaster. You'd get a good pile of spells, but no high level ones. It'd be like gestalting wizard and sorcerer.

Ah, yeah that would work.

[Kazyan]

Fochlucan Lyrist, Hellfire Warlock, and Uncanny Trickster. Certainly more, but surely those.

[nedz]

There are a number of PrCs which see use as 1 level dips. Basically they are front loaded. However, since you are only going to have a 3 level dip anyway: this idea may be moot.

[Jack Zander]

There's so many. You might just want to have your PCs tell you what they would like to play and then look at each case for yourself before you allow it.

[Callin]

I agree with a case by case basis. You know your players and the characters they have made or are making/playstyle. So only you can know if the Assassin PrC that the Rogue wants to take will be OP.

[Tylorious]

Research the PRC as they come up, and decide which ones to use, which ones to use partially, and which ones you should ban.

[CTrees]

Thrallherd. Yay Leadership at level two!

Honestly it may be better to make a whitelist instead of a blacklist. So many that could be unbalancing in E6.

[Evard]

Anything whose prerequisites could only be met at 10+ level under normal circumstances. Archmage, Sublime Chord, Magelord...

Hmm good base rule.


You'll want to ban anything that progresses casting, or maybe just turn that feature itself off. That is, unless you want your wizard/loremaster to have access to 5th level spells, something not normally allowed in E6.

The rule would be that the +1 caster class level "stacks" with your caster class level (if you have one) or does nothing since you don't have one when taking the PrC.


I agree with a case by case basis. You know your players and the characters they have made or are making/playstyle. So only you can know if the Assassin PrC that the Rogue wants to take will be OP.

To true to true...

But I actually may run a Fighter/Shadowdancer in a one shot soon to test out some PrC with different classes (4 others will be PCs) so I guess we will find out.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The rule would be that the +1 caster class level "stacks" with your caster class level (if you have one) or does nothing since you don't have one when taking the PrC

This sounds like a poor idea for E6. You give casters a lot of their power back by giving them 4th and possibly 5th level spells. A cleric would end up being ridiculous. I would recommend it either starts its own progression, or just ups their caster level (and gives no other effect). This means they still get better SR penetration, are better at dispelling, etc, but will not make the fighter/barbarian types suddenly useless as long as you have some of your spells left.

[Holocron Coder]

The rule would be that the +1 caster class level "stacks" with your caster class level (if you have one) or does nothing since you don't have one when taking the PrC.

I think, generally, by the rule of gestalt, the advancement of casting ability "as base class" is the same as... advancing it in the base class. So, since it's the same ability, they don't stack, but instead overlap. Meaning that caster progression in a prestige class side-by-side with the casting base class doesn't give you extra progression.

However, you would want to ban any prestige class that gives its OWN casting progression (such as Ur Priest).

[Evard]

This sounds like a poor idea for E6. You give casters a lot of their power back by giving them 4th and possibly 5th level spells. A cleric would end up being ridiculous. I would recommend it either starts its own progression, or just ups their caster level (and gives no other effect). This means they still get better SR penetration, are better at dispelling, etc, but will not make the fighter/barbarian types suddenly useless as long as you have some of your spells left.

Sorry when I meant stack I meant overlap.

I was thinking of it more like BAB, where if you have 2 gestalt classes both with BAB + 1 at first level. You don't gain BAB + 2 but BAB +1 via the gestalt rules.

My mistake tho lol. I actually use the word stack in the wrong place... a lot.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hmm good base rule.



The rule would be that the +1 caster class level "stacks" with your caster class level (if you have one) or does nothing since you don't have one when taking the PrC.



To true to true...

But I actually may run a Fighter/Shadowdancer in a one shot soon to test out some PrC with different classes (4 others will be PCs) so I guess we will find out.

How would it work for something like this

Wizard 1
Rogue//Abjurant Champion
Wizard 2
Rogue 2//Abjurant Champion 2
Wiz 3
Rogue 3//Abjurant Champion 3

Would you have CL as a Wiz 3 or as a Wiz 6?

[Holocron Coder]

How would it work for something like this

Wizard 1
Rogue//Abjurant Champion
Wizard 2
Rogue 2//Abjurant Champion 2
Wiz 3
Rogue 3//Abjurant Champion 3

Would you have CL as a Wiz 3 or as a Wiz 6?

Wiz 6.

The point discussion is on something like...

Wizard 1
Wizard 2//Abjurant Champion
Wizard 3
Wizard 4//Abjurant Champion 2
Wizard 5
Wizard 6//Abjurant Champion 3

Which would also have Wiz 6, but there was some confusion about whether or not they'd have Wiz 9 (hint: no. so much no).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Nothing with independent casting progressions, methinks-- Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest, and so on.

[Evard]

Wiz 6.

The point discussion is on something like...

Wizard 1
Wizard 2//Abjurant Champion
Wizard 3
Wizard 4//Abjurant Champion 2
Wizard 5
Wizard 6//Abjurant Champion 3

Which would also have Wiz 6, but there was some confusion about whether or not they'd have Wiz 9 (hint: no. so much no).

We talked a bit earlier about having the +1 caster class level become lower than 1 but since you only gain three levels of it you would end up with an odd remainder.

+ .5 caster class level @ 3 levels would be +1.5 and the above would have a total caster class level of wiz 4.5

Hmmmm

Maybe an "epic" feat to give a .5 caster class level?

But this is homebrew talk isn't it :p

[nedz]

It might be easier to ban consequences you don't want.

Possible Examples

Spellcasting beyond 3rd level spells
Caster Level > 6


Everything should then work as advertised.

[Feralventas]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275797

We had a conversation about something like this a few weeks ago.

[Evard]

It might be easier to ban consequences you don't want.

Possible Examples

Spellcasting beyond 3rd level spells
Caster Level > 6


Everything should then work as advertised.

This will probably be posted first after each class spellcasting class (we are making a word document afterall).

[Evard]

So what we came up with is this.

Level 1: Prestigious Soul, Feat
Level 2: Prestige Class +1, Feat
Level 3: Skill
Level 4: Prestige Class +1, Feat
Level 5: Skill
Level 6 Prestige Class +1, Feat

Prestigious Soul: You are better than other members of your race and other races. There is something special about you that no one can duplicate.

Choose a Prestige class and at the levels indicated on the table you gestalt said prestige class with your normal class.

Special: In place of a prestige class you may choose your racial paragon.

Skill: Gain one skill as a class skill. We will be using a variant of the UA where if you was a Fighter you would get 2 + (Int mod, minimum 1) skills to choose from the entire list, these are always considered class skills. If you take the feat open minded you don't gain additional class skills but skill points to put into cross class skills. Each level beyond 1st you gain a number of skill points equal to (if fighter) 2 + ( Int, minimum 1) to put in in cross class skills.

EDIT: You don't gain skills/skill points when you gestalt a Prestige Class

I'll make my Fighter/Shadow Dancer later to give an example of how characters will look.

List of Prestige Classes that are banned will follow when we get them all down.

[A_S]

Incantatrix gets its capstone at level 3. Just sayin'.

[Evard]

Incantatrix gets its capstone at level 3. Just sayin'.

Well that PrC is like a whole box full of capstones rolled into one class.

Also I thought about something, for PrC that gives you +1 Caster Class Level.

Keep the rule CL can't go over 6 but when you gain +1 Caster Class you go up in spells known/spells per day for spells under 3rd level.

Wiz 6/Awesome PrC for Wiz 3 (gestalted) would at level 6 give you (without int bonus)
Spells as a 9th level Wizard BUT nothing over 3rd level.

Lv. 0: 4
Lv. 1: 4
Lv. 2: 4
Lv. 3: 3

I've seen the feats that give extra spells known and/or extra spells per day so this would essentially be worth a few feats but mundane types will be gaining bonuses in other ways.

Would this overpower the lesser casting PrCs? Giving the caster a longer shelf life should be fine (I think).