TO of a melee gestalt

[Immabozo]

So I'm thinking a TO melee Gestalt build might look something like this:

Race: Ogre Classes: Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6/Barbarian 14//2 LA for Ogre/4 Ogre RHD/War Hulk 10/Frenzied Berserker 4

Assuming point buy 16 str, 14 dex, 16 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 10 cha, after racial adjustments, (all 5) leveling +1 stats, war hulk levels and equipment:
HP: 384 (444 when raging) (20D12, +160, +9, 3x toughness)
AC: 28 (13 Mithril full plate +5, 5 NA, 1 dex, -1 size), 22 when raging and frenzied
52 (64 when raging and frenzy) str
12 dex
32 (38 con)
10 int
10 wis
9 cha
BAB 20, grapple 44 (50 when raging and frenzied)
10 ft reach
50 movement (40 Ogre, +10 ft movement Barbarian)
Hit everything in reach (War Hulk)
DR 3/-
Uncanny dodge
Improved uncanny dodge
Trap sense 4
Indomitable will

Feats:
Flaw: Endurance
Flaw: Steadfast Determination
1: Power Attack
Warrior Bonus: Cleave
Ogre RHD Feat: Improved Bull rush
Ogre RHD Feat: Knock back
3: Leap Attack
4, Warrior Bonus: Great Cleave
6: Shock Trooper
9: Destructive Rage
12: Improved Power Attack
13, 14 and 15 (fixed bonus feat from War Hulk): Toughness
15: Intimidating Rage
16 Frenzied Berserker bonus feat: Diehard
17 Frenzied Berserker bonus feat: Supreme Cleave
18: Weapon Proficiency (Dwarven War Axe)
20 Frenzied Berserker bonus feat: Deathless Frenzy

Attacks: +41/+36/+31/+26 (+47/+47/+41/+36/+31 when raging) 4D8 +31 (+40 when raging) crit 20 x3. -10 AC (AC instead of to hit from Shock Trooper, power attack, improved power attack and leap attack) +30 damage, +51 (+57 when raging/frenzy) to bull rush (with no movement myself) to everyone hit, guiding them (with shock trooper) into each other for 8D6 +63 (+81 when raging/frenzied) per collision to each in the collision, plus a trip attempt.

Will save 19 (24 when raging, 28 vs enchanments)

Items:
Gargantuan Dwarven War Axe +5 (2HD for a large giant type)
Mithril Full Plate +5
Belt of str +6
Amulet of Cha +3
Vest of Con +7
Headband of int +4
(not exactly sure on how much gold is left, so possibly more equipment)

[Asteron]

I know that the Dungeoncrusher/ Knockback combo is used a lot, but we have ruled that it doesn't work in our gaming circles. Dungeoncrusher states in the fluff that your momentum crashing into them that causes the damage. It's arguable that fluff doesn't have any effect on RAW, but IMO, its a stretch to use it that way.

Why use the dwarven waraxe? Wouldn't a greataxe or greatsword be better?

[Urpriest]

This isn't TO by any stretch of the imagination. It isn't even T, considering that it somehow has items that grant odd ability bonuses, which aren't even the kind of thing a reasonable DM houserules.

[Immabozo]

I know that the Dungeoncrusher/ Knockback combo is used a lot, but we have ruled that it doesn't work in our gaming circles. Dungeoncrusher states in the fluff that your momentum crashing into them that causes the damage. It's arguable that fluff doesn't have any effect on RAW, but IMO, its a stretch to use it that way.

Why use the dwarven waraxe? Wouldn't a greataxe or greatsword be better?

because A medium Dwarven War axe and a medium war axe do the most damage at 1D12, difference is, Dwarven war axe is 1 handed while war axe is 2 handed.

As far as the Dungeoncrasher fighter goes, I see what you are saying, but I am using shock trooper to throw them into EACHOTHER, IMO, still satisfies fluff.


This isn't TO by any stretch of the imagination. It isn't even T, considering that it somehow has items that grant odd ability bonuses, which aren't even the kind of thing a reasonable DM houserules.

What do you mean odd ability bonuses? Is there a cap? But eve if you take away the ability bonuses, it is still a VERY solid build. How is it not TO? Did I miss something? Cause as far as I can tell, on this build's first initiative, any fight with a large group is over, he wins, round one. Or close to it. Any singular opponent is still taking huge damage turn one and if they survive, being thrown back way far, for more damage if there are walls.

I dont get your criticism of my build.

[kardar233]

If you want something a little closer to TO, check out the Circle Mower (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871834/Circle_Mower:_Deadliest_Warrior_Without_Magic_Item s?pg=1).

[TuggyNE]

What do you mean odd ability bonuses? Is there a cap? But eve if you take away the ability bonuses, it is still a VERY solid build.

There is no cap, as such, but there are no items I know of that grant e.g. +3 enhancement bonus to Cha, or +7 enhancement bonus to Con. All such bonuses are even numbers.


How is it not TO? Did I miss something? Cause as far as I can tell, on this build's first initiative, any fight with a large group is over, he wins, round one. Or close to it.

It's not TO because:
Doesn't do all that much damage, on TO scales
Trivially negatable with a couple of feats (Elusive Target mostly) or any of a number of spells (Ironguard etc)
Vulnerable to numerous BFC/SoG/SoL/SoD spells
No particularly impressive AC, miss chance, or other defenses
Doesn't have Pounce listed
Doesn't win initiative, what with +1 modifier
Fundamentally, doesn't push any one aspect to its theoretical limits, or anywhere near


On the upside, that means it's PO, which is arguably a lot more useful. You could actually play this thing.

[Immabozo]

There is no cap, as such, but there are no items I know of that grant e.g. +3 enhancement bonus to Cha, or +7 enhancement bonus to Con. All such bonuses are even numbers.

OH, I see the problem. My group, the wondrous items giving ability bonuses are the bonus squared x 1000 and you can get whatever number your little hear desires.


It's not TO because:
Doesn't do all that much damage, on TO scales
Trivially negatable with a couple of feats (Elusive Target mostly) or any of a number of spells (Ironguard etc)
Vulnerable to numerous BFC/SoG/SoL/SoD spells
No particularly impressive AC, miss chance, or other defenses
Doesn't have Pounce listed
Doesn't win initiative, what with +1 modifier
Fundamentally, doesn't push any one aspect to its theoretical limits, or anywhere near


On the upside, that means it's PO, which is arguably a lot more useful. You could actually play this thing.

After reading the circle mower guy, I must agree with you, getting the picture of what the damage should look like. The pounce should be there, I look it off because an earlier version had the just better than pounce ability that a Warrior of Darkness can get, but I changed that and forgot to put the pounce back.

You are right, it could be played, that makes me feel better about the build, haha, thank you

[Urpriest]

Don't get me wrong, if you fixed the blatant mistakes this is still a strong build, perhaps too strong for many groups. It's just that TO usually refers to builds that break records, go to crazy lengths of transhumanism, or just use silly misinterpretations of the rules. The only silly misinterpretations of the rules you're using is the idea that anything could ever grant odd ability bonuses (besides permanent things like levelup bonuses and tomes).

Also, what's the Headband of Int for? You know it doesn't give you more skill points, right?

[Immabozo]

Don't get me wrong, if you fixed the blatant mistakes this is still a strong build, perhaps too strong for many groups. It's just that TO usually refers to builds that break records, go to crazy lengths of transhumanism, or just use silly misinterpretations of the rules. The only silly misinterpretations of the rules you're using is the idea that anything could ever grant odd ability bonuses (besides permanent things like levelup bonuses and tomes).

Also, what's the Headband of Int for? You know it doesn't give you more skill points, right?

I see, I had a very misunderstood idea of what TO was. But thank you, I have a few ideas to cover up the holes and a few further optimization options, like were something large with 10 foot reach (instead of ogre) and then War Shaper instead of Frenzied Berserker for another 4 str, 4 con, immunity to crits and 5 feet longer reach. Also, Whirling Spirit Lion Totem Barb for higher AC, another attack and pounce.

Simply to get int up to 10 to avoid playability issues, not crunch reasons. I am playing a half ogre right now with low int and I was running into "You're just too stupid for that thought/conversation/question" things. And it is very, very annoying. My DM even got to the point of "roll a 6 sider, roll three or below and you are unable to ask the question and unintelligent howls and growls come out of your mouth." So thats when I bought a huge +int item.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Lolth-Touched Half-Minotaur Half-Goristro (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1) Water Orc
Str +38, Dex -4, Con +24, int -4, Wis -2, Cha -2
Huge size, +12 natural armor
40 ft. land speed, 40 ft. swim speed
2 slams (each is treated as a two-handed attack), gore
Scent, Darkvision, Cunning, Track, bonuses to Listen, Search, Spot
Half-Fiend traits, DR/Good, Spell-Like Abilities which should have some switched out for Levitate, Spider Climb, See Invisibility, and Fear.

Fighter 6/ Warblade 14// LA +6/ War Hulk 10/ Fighter 4
Knock-Back and Knock-Down for sure, Combat Reflexes and Defensive Sweep are good. Nothing else even matters all that much. You can get Weapon Supremacy with the Fighter feat you get at 20th level. Definitely include some Intimidate tricks with the Zhentarim Soldier sub levels, and don't forget the size bonus.

[kardar233]

Lolth-Touched Half-Minotaur Half-Goristro (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1) Water Orc
Str +38, Dex -4, Con +24, int -4, Wis -2, Cha -2
Huge size, +12 natural armor
40 ft. land speed, 40 ft. swim speed
2 slams (each is treated as a two-handed attack), gore
Scent, Darkvision, Cunning, Track, bonuses to Listen, Search, Spot
Half-Fiend traits, DR/Good, Spell-Like Abilities which should have some switched out for Levitate, Spider Climb, See Invisibility, and Fear.

Fighter 6/ Warblade 14// LA +6/ War Hulk 10/ Fighter 4
Knock-Back and Knock-Down for sure, Combat Reflexes and Defensive Sweep are good. Nothing else even matters all that much. You can get Weapon Supremacy with the Fighter feat you get at 20th level. Definitely include some Intimidate tricks with the Zhentarim Soldier sub levels, and don't forget the size bonus.

Mix that with Battle Jump, Dungeoncrash people into the ground and you're golden.

I've actually looked at a similar build that used Aeshkrau Illumian (houseruled to work with psionics) and Ardent, which looked pretty good.

[Immabozo]

Lolth-Touched Half-Minotaur Half-Goristro (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1) Water Orc
Str +38, Dex -4, Con +24, int -4, Wis -2, Cha -2
Huge size, +12 natural armor
40 ft. land speed, 40 ft. swim speed
2 slams (each is treated as a two-handed attack), gore
Scent, Darkvision, Cunning, Track, bonuses to Listen, Search, Spot
Half-Fiend traits, DR/Good, Spell-Like Abilities which should have some switched out for Levitate, Spider Climb, See Invisibility, and Fear.

Fighter 6/ Warblade 14// LA +6/ War Hulk 10/ Fighter 4
Knock-Back and Knock-Down for sure, Combat Reflexes and Defensive Sweep are good. Nothing else even matters all that much. You can get Weapon Supremacy with the Fighter feat you get at 20th level. Definitely include some Intimidate tricks with the Zhentarim Soldier sub levels, and don't forget the size bonus.

That sounds like a lot of fun! What are Zhentarim Soldier sub levels? Where can I read about them?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That sounds like a lot of fun! What are Zhentarim Soldier sub levels? Where can I read about them?

Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)

[Immabozo]

Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)

Thank you.

[TuggyNE]

Simply to get int up to 10 to avoid playability issues, not crunch reasons. I am playing a half ogre right now with low int and I was running into "You're just too stupid for that thought/conversation/question" things. And it is very, very annoying. My DM even got to the point of "roll a 6 sider, roll three or below and you are unable to ask the question and unintelligent howls and growls come out of your mouth." So thats when I bought a huge +int item.

Ouch. That's a pretty lame houserule.

For reference, Int 4-7 is the intelligence of athachs, minotaurs, ettins, manticores, gargoyles, mummies, harpies, mephits, hieracosphinxes, chimeras, bodaks, belkers, and so on and so forth, all of which are explicitly smart enough to speak at least one language. (Chimeras, Int 4, only speak Draconic when they need to "toady up to a superior", which is pretty slick right there.) Hellhounds, griffons, howlers, dretches, and various others have Int 5-6, and understand languages (although they don't speak, for various reasons). Grey renders, at Int 3, have an unusual propensity to adopt other creatures. What I'm getting at is that your DM is wrong in this; anything Int 3 or above (which is required to be a PC) can figure out how to form sentences and make human-like plans (though they might not be very good).

And if, for some reason, you do have to make an Int check to figure out something, why on earth would you be rolling a flat d6 instead of d20+Int? That's just pants-on-head levels of wrong.

[Immabozo]

Ouch. That's a pretty lame houserule.

For reference, Int 4-7 is the intelligence of athachs, minotaurs, ettins, manticores, gargoyles, mummies, harpies, mephits, hieracosphinxes, chimeras, bodaks, belkers, and so on and so forth, all of which are explicitly smart enough to speak at least one language. (Chimeras, Int 4, only speak Draconic when they need to "toady up to a superior", which is pretty slick right there.) Hellhounds, griffons, howlers, dretches, and various others have Int 5-6, and understand languages (although they don't speak, for various reasons). Grey renders, at Int 3, have an unusual propensity to adopt other creatures. What I'm getting at is that your DM is wrong in this; anything Int 3 or above (which is required to be a PC) can figure out how to form sentences and make human-like plans (though they might not be very good).

And if, for some reason, you do have to make an Int check to figure out something, why on earth would you be rolling a flat d6 instead of d20+Int? That's just pants-on-head levels of wrong.

Thank you, I couldn't agree more. The DM and the other guys were shocked when I was getting pissed at him by the end of the night. I am surprised they had a hard time figuring out why. The DM ended up giving me free +2 int, so that was nice. If I didn't love the character so much, I might no go back. Good thing my girl is joining the game and she is playing my favorite druid build, the wildshaping druid. She is going to destroy his world, but not in a game breaking way, just enough to be satisfying. High AC, high hp, spells, good damage (less than my character already puts out). And I will love every second of it.

[MirddinEmris]

Don't get me wrong, if you fixed the blatant mistakes this is still a strong build, perhaps too strong for many groups. It's just that TO usually refers to builds that break records, go to crazy lengths of transhumanism, or just use silly misinterpretations of the rules. The only silly misinterpretations of the rules you're using is the idea that anything could ever grant odd ability bonuses (besides permanent things like levelup bonuses and tomes).

Also, what's the Headband of Int for? You know it doesn't give you more skill points, right?


I'm pretty sure there is such items, meaning that you can create it using rules for creating magic items from DMG. For abilities it's 1000*(bonus squared) gp. Or maybe there is a rule that specifically forbid creation of such item that i wasn't aware of? If there is, i'll be grateful for pointing it out for me.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Stupid question time. What do TO and PO mean?

[gooddragon1]

Meh, just go simple: 1d2 Crusader

Imbued Healing (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-champion--57/imbued-healing--1436/) (Luck Domain) + Aura of Chaos + Weapon that has a d2 damage dice (small gauntlet)

It relies on an interpretation that imbued healing can treat the dice roll as the maximum result showed on the dice while not actually rolling the dice. It's theoretically infinite damage at level 12.


Stupid question time. What do TO and PO mean?

TO=Theoretical Optimization (How high can the numbers go with a DM who is willing to interpret the rules however you want them to as long as you can make an argument for it - RAI (rules as interpreted) be buggered)
Example: Pun-Pun.

PO=Practical Optimization (How high can the numbers go where a DM is moderating the game and possibly expecting you to optimize to survive)
Example: Druid 20.

[Xerxus]

Anything with an intelligence below 8 is mentally challenged to say the least. Neverwinter Nights even changed most conversations to reflect your reduced mental capacity if you had an int of 8 or less. I say, if you want to make plans and discuss complicated topics in character then have an intelligence of at least 10.

[TuggyNE]

Anything with an intelligence below 8 is mentally challenged to say the least. Neverwinter Nights even changed most conversations to reflect your reduced mental capacity if you had an int of 8 or less. I say, if you want to make plans and discuss complicated topics in character then have an intelligence of at least 10.

I already addressed (giving numerous examples) why this doesn't really make a lot of sense given D&D's actual ability score system. Certainly, having 8 Int makes you duller than usual, but by no means so stupid as to be incapable of forming more or less normal plans. Defaulting to "hurr durr me hit things?" if you have anything less than strictly average Intelligence is just a needless caricature, and has some pretty unpleasant implications for PCs.

Remember, kids, if an Int 4 creature can figure out how to truckle and flatter its way out of trouble, so can you!

[Xerxus]

So the above mentioned halfogre with intelligence 6 shouldn't be hurr-durr? Then who would be, ever?!

[Rhynn]

I'd think using prestige classes on a gestalt (not allowed by the rules) puts your outside of "TO" too, technically.


So the above mentioned halfogre with intelligence 6 shouldn't be hurr-durr? Then who would be, ever?!

Someone who specifically is. It's not an automatic function of your Intelligence score, as evidenced by "athachs, minotaurs, ettins, manticores, gargoyles, mummies, harpies, mephits, hieracosphinxes, chimeras, bodaks, belkers, and so on and so forth." You can be slow at below-average Int, but we're talking Fezzik in The Princess Bride, not

"You're just too stupid for that thought/conversation/question" [...] "roll a 6 sider, roll three or below and you are unable to ask the question and unintelligent howls and growls come out of your mouth."

[Immabozo]

I'd think using prestige classes on a gestalt (not allowed by the rules) puts your outside of "TO" too, technically.

I thought PrC were allowed on one side of the gestalt at a time

[TuggyNE]

So the above mentioned halfogre with intelligence 6 shouldn't be hurr-durr? Then who would be, ever?!

In addition to what Rhynn said, I'd like to note that not only did I go through only about half the monsters in MM1, and not only did I leave out some marginal cases that weren't such great examples, but even the examples I gave are mostly of monsters with lessened need to communicate and cooperate compared to humanoids! Anybody capable of being a PC at all is going to be capable of basic tactics and have at least some means of communicating reasonably well. A mere -2 Int modifier is nowhere near enough to negate that, or even substantially hinder it in most situations; a -4 Int (i.e., Int 3) might, in some cases, but it would need justification. And there's never any reason to use arbitrary and excessive flat chances like the d6.

If you did use plan complexity checks or the like, the mechanic would probably be normal Int checks: DC 5 or so for most plans, DC 10 for unusually complicated ones, and DC 15 for horrendously intricate plans that take normal people several run-throughs to comprehend. You could perhaps add Wis checks at a slight penalty against the same DC, to represent someone who's not very smart, but is capable of intuiting things rather better.

[Xerxus]

Equally then, someone with a strength of 6 has no problem performing routine tasks? I'm sorry but dropping intelligence and then expecting no roleplaying consequences is like dropping constitution and being surprised when you die.

[TuggyNE]

Ability score off-topic:
Equally then, someone with a strength of 6 has no problem performing routine tasks? I'm sorry but dropping intelligence and then expecting no roleplaying consequences is like dropping constitution and being surprised when you die.

Routine tasks like walking around with a dozen pounds? Why yes actually. The "hurr durr" caricature that the OP's DM uses is much like saying "no, you have a 50% chance of being unable to pick up your dagger" to someone with 6 Str, or saying "you have a 50% chance of tripping over steps when you try to go up them" to someone with 6 Dex. It's simply not reasonable!

For that matter, someone who literally drops dead for no other reason than because they have 6 Con is equally foolish. Their frailty is real, and there are reasonable game mechanics in place (or at least guidelines for easily making them) to represent that; houseruling in wild failure chances for what should only be fairly small penalties is a bad idea across the board.

Actually, the more common version I've heard of this sort of silliness is that anyone with a Cha of 9 or less is unable to get anyone to listen to them, looks about as attractive as an ogre with pimples and a caved-in chest, and can't get out a word to a pretty lady/man to save their life.

Incidentally, I'm thinking we should move this to another thread if you want to keep discussing.

[Rhynn]

I thought PrC were allowed on one side of the gestalt at a time

You are correct.

"A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class."

Durr.

Ability-score off-topic continues (sorry!):

Equally then, someone with a strength of 6 has no problem performing routine tasks? I'm sorry but dropping intelligence and then expecting no roleplaying consequences is like dropping constitution and being surprised when you die.

Routine tasks don't require dice rolls, and shouldn't be made unreasonably challenging. Str 6 isn't even close to crippled - by the rules, you can carry 60 pounds all day, albeit moving slower than someone with Str 15+ (only at that level of difference does the difference in long-term carrying ability become noticeable). 60 pounds is generally full kit for modern soldiers, and that's a lot. You're worse at arm-wrestling, etc., but not actually incapable.

Str 6 is noticeably below average, but not crippled. Why should Int 6 be?

For another comparison, someone with Int 6 is only 2 points behind someone with Int 10 in Knowledge skills. Sure, you can be slow, but we're talking about this literal case here:

"You're just too stupid for that thought/conversation/question" [...] "roll a 6 sider, roll three or below and you are unable to ask the question and unintelligent howls and growls come out of your mouth."

Yet you're turning it into:

no roleplaying consequences

That's a false dilemma you're creating there.


Actually, the more common version I've heard of this sort of silliness is that anyone with a Cha of 9 or less is unable to get anyone to listen to them, looks about as attractive as an ogre with pimples and a caved-in chest, and can't get out a word to a pretty lady/man to save their life.

When, in actual fact, 11.57% of all people (more than 1 in 10) you see all day would have Cha 9, and 37.50% (more than 1 in 3!) would have Cha 9 or less, and the range of 5-9 alone would cover just under 32.87% (almost 1 in 3). Cha 5-9 would, therefore, be completely normal, but below average.

The same goes for Str, Int, etc. 1 in 10 people (9.26%) would have an Int/etc. of 6 or less, and 1 in 10 people are hardly incapable of forming words other than howling and. If you take IQ as authorative (you shouldn't), this would make Int 6 around IQ 75-80, and the "traditional" cut-off for MR/general learning disability is IQ below 70, and the percentage of people affected is 2-3% (75-90% of those have a mild variety). On the 3d6 bell curve, that would make Int 3-4 (1.85%) the equivalent of MR/general learning disability, which corresponds pretty well with ~2.5% of people having IQ below 70. Let's say someone with Int 5 might (varying by individual) have mild general learning disability to play it safe.

I think that covers both game-mechanics and real-world comparisons pretty well.

[Immabozo]

You are correct.

"A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class."

Durr.

Ability-score off-topic continues (sorry!):


Routine tasks don't require dice rolls, and shouldn't be made unreasonably challenging. Str 6 isn't even close to crippled - by the rules, you can carry 60 pounds all day, albeit moving slower than someone with Str 15+ (only at that level of difference does the difference in long-term carrying ability become noticeable). 60 pounds is generally full kit for modern soldiers, and that's a lot. You're worse at arm-wrestling, etc., but not actually incapable.

Str 6 is noticeably below average, but not crippled. Why should Int 6 be?

For another comparison, someone with Int 6 is only 2 points behind someone with Int 10 in Knowledge skills. Sure, you can be slow, but we're talking about this literal case here:


Yet you're turning it into:


That's a false dilemma you're creating there.



When, in actual fact, 11.57% of all people (more than 1 in 10) you see all day would have Cha 9, and 37.50% (more than 1 in 3!) would have Cha 9 or less, and the range of 5-9 alone would cover just under 32.87% (almost 1 in 3). Cha 5-9 would, therefore, be completely normal, but below average.

The same goes for Str, Int, etc. 1 in 10 people (9.26%) would have an Int/etc. of 6 or less, and 1 in 10 people are hardly incapable of forming words other than howling and. If you take IQ as authorative (you shouldn't), this would make Int 6 around IQ 75-80, and the "traditional" cut-off for MR/general learning disability is IQ below 70, and the percentage of people affected is 2-3% (75-90% of those have a mild variety). On the 3d6 bell curve, that would make Int 3-4 (1.85%) the equivalent of MR/general learning disability, which corresponds pretty well with ~2.5% of people having IQ below 70. Let's say someone with Int 5 might (varying by individual) have mild general learning disability to play it safe.

I think that covers both game-mechanics and real-world comparisons pretty well.


Thank you for reconfirming the PrC, haha, I was doubting myself.

I'll create another topic for the off ability scores, cause it is something I am very interested in reading, but you are right, belongs in its own thread.

[Immabozo]

Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280025) the link to the other thread on low ability scores

[mregecko]

Just gonna throw this out here, an item of +6 enhancement bonus to a stat or lower is non-epic.

An item of +8 enhancement bonus or higher is epic.

An item of +7 is ambiguous, but I'd rule it as being epic personally (and thus would cost significantly more).

Also, a vest of con is a non-affiliated body slot, so 50% more $$.

[Immabozo]

what are the slots that usually are con related? I forgot, haha

[mregecko]

Looking more closely, looks like it could (if you called it a "shirt", dumb rule) be an affiliated slot. Sorry for the confusion :-)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm

Vests are for class ability improvements, but shirts can be for physical improvement (like belts).

[Rhynn]

Just gonna throw this out here, an item of +6 enhancement bonus to a stat or lower is non-epic.

An item of +8 enhancement bonus or higher is epic.

An item of +7 is ambiguous, but I'd rule it as being epic personally (and thus would cost significantly more).

Not actually ambiguous:

"In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item.
[...]

Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.
"

This also means it costs 10 times as much, or 490,000 gp for a +7 (enhancement bonus) item in the right slot, and can only be created with an epic feat.

There's no reason at all you can't have non-even enhancement bonuses to ability scores, btw. The base price is just X*X*1,000 gp.

[Immabozo]

Looking more closely, looks like it could (if you called it a "shirt", dumb rule) be an affiliated slot. Sorry for the confusion :-)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm

Vests are for class ability improvements, but shirts can be for physical improvement (like belts).

hmm, interesting

[Immabozo]

There's no reason at all you can't have non-even enhancement bonuses to ability scores, btw. The base price is just X*X*1,000 gp.

I thought so, thank you. This is the math I have been using since I started playing a year ago