LG vs. OOTs (Spoilers)

[CowardlyPaladin]

Ok, as of the current comic 883, both groups are about to face off. Lets go over the specifics


On the LG side

Sabrine is out of the fight for at least 24 hours, and she needs to catch up with everybody.

Nale has been greatly injured and lost his sword (Which I think was a +3 Keen Longsword). We know from earlier he has a dagger and not to mention spells, but still that makes him weaker. He has been healed, though at the cost of his Dad's items. He has used up a Dimension Door and a Charm Person.

Tarquin: He has been somewhat injured in the first fight, and slightly more injured in the second fights. He used up all of his healing items I think (Considering he wasn't able to help his assistant). He also has lost his axe, which was clearly enchanted. He has a whip which might be magical, and a dagger.

Kilkil: I don't know if he has any skills what so ever, but he was hurt by Holy Word. He might be a rogue but most likely a Dragonwought expert, so he is kinda just useless.

Malak: A vampire, which means he is most likely lower level but also extremely dangerous. He has used up a Hold Person, a Vampire Touch, two protections from Sunlight, a Flame Strike, a quickened Inflict Light Wounds, Greater Dispel Magic, Poison, Harm, Divine Power, a normal dispel magic, Control Wind (From a Scroll), a flight (Overland Flight?) and a Flame Strike.
He has used at least 11 raise dead with his staff

He also dismissed Thundershield's spell, I don't know if that counts as a spell
Evil Dukon: Now a Vampire Spawn, I don't know if he has the same spell slots as last time. He has used up ALOT of spells at this point, LOTS of of spells used up. He is at full health, but I don't think he has much left healing wise.

Mr. Drow: I don't want to spell his name honestly. Has used two empowered Vitrolic Sphere, an overland flight (Maybe two if he used one on Malak), some sort of summoning spell, a gust of wind, a shield, and a Teleport. Also maybe some protection spells.

On OOTS hand

Dukon: Down for the count

V: Is badly wounded, but I think she has only used a dispel magic and a Dimension Door thus far. If she can meet up with the rest of the group, then she has ALOT of spells that he can use to destroy people.

Belkar: Badly wounded, and missing a few levels at this point.

Roy: Currently at full health and with Tarquin's axe, but unless they have potions, no more healing

Haley: Full Health, minus a smoke stick

Elan: Hasn't used a single spell, no magic used. Is the only source of healing right now

Mr. Scruffy: Full Health


Actually, I think it is a fairly equal fight. Belkar is pretty useless, but he can still fight and use his barbarian rage to make things more even. He and Mr. Scruffy can be back up fighters. Roy and Haley are at full Strength, and while the LG is at full health, they are missing a member, and have one effectively useless member. We can't forget the fact that two of them are missing their main weapons, which means they will be at a major disadvantage. They are down ALOT of spells, particuarly Malak and Dukon, and while his being a vampire gives him alot of advantages, he still is quite short. While OOTs has only a single caster, she is totally up to date with all of her spells, so if OOTs plans another ambush, takes advantage of traps, or allows the LG to deal with the huge door of death rather than handling it themselves, then they might be able to wittle them down. This is doubly true as the LG is only using Malak, Durkon, Mr. Drow and nale, and two of those would be perfectly fine killing Nale. So I think things are going to go really badly for the LG.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Nice summary! Some corrections:

Malack's dismissal of Durkon's Death Ward was not a spell.

Tarquin probably has full health due to his (extra strength?) ring of regeneration.

Unless Belkar gets Restored, he shouldn't fight at all. He only has 1-4 Con.

V used Passwall, not Dimension Door.

Don't understand "Roy [...] no more healing" immediately contradicted by "Elan [...] is the only source of healing"... it's not much, though.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Nice summary! Some corrections:

Malack's dismissal of Durkon's Death Ward was not a spell.

Tarquin probably has full health due to his (extra strength?) ring of regeneration.

Unless Belkar gets Restored, he shouldn't fight at all. He only has 1-4 Con.

V used Passwall, not Dimension Door.

Don't understand "Roy [...] no more healing" immediately contradicted by "Elan [...] is the only source of healing"... it's not much, though.

Right, you are correct. Ok, so Belkar is in that case almost entirely useless, he can attack ok, but can't take any hits. Tarquin....how do you kill a gun with a ring? Fire (Which he is immune). How high level would Malack be?

[Raineh Daze]

Malack's class level, according to the thread on this stuff, is probably 12ish. His ECL, therefore? I think that's anywhere from 24 upwards, with anything from 14 HD and above being fair game (depending on what, exactly, he is). :smallconfused:

[rodneyAnonymous]

Malack's class level, according to the thread on this stuff, is probably 12ish. His ECL, therefore? I think that's anywhere from 24 upwards...

24 ECL minimum? If he is just a weird lizardman with no legs, he gets +1 for that (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lizardfolk_%28Race%29) and +8 for vampire (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Vampire), so 21 and upwards, right?

[SowZ]

Assuming V can reconnect with the group, yeah. If V handles Zzdtri and Elan handles Nale, that evens things up. Due to using a whip, I think Tarquin will be less effective as a melee fighter than Roy. Shoot, Roy could probably take on both Durkon and Malack and hold his own, what with their being weakened and his sword. That would require Haley holding her own against Tarquin, but I think it's possible. Whips are non-lethal, so maaaybe Belkar could risk fighting Tarquin? If he's even able...

I still think the Order is at a disadvantage. And the Linear Guild probably on't just charge in with man-to-man defense. But it isn't impossible for the OOTS to win. I trust the Giant to make it interesting. He has so far.

[JackRackham]

It's also worth mentioning that if Malack can be killed/destroyed, Durkon would presumably have free will once again and might change sides - that would shift things fairly dramatically in favor of the Order. Moreover, I would expect the Order to want to kill the holy (swearword) out of Malack, so it wouldn't be surprising to see them focus on him.

I wonder if Haley has an extra bow in her Bag of Holding that Belkar could use. This might not seem like a big deal, as Belkar is not built for archery anyway. But, as we've seen, Z is built specifically to counter the elf - Belkar could at least be some help in nudging things in V's favor in this fight, as opposed to being entirely useless, as a melee fighter who can't take a hit.

[The Pilgrim]

Z is built to fight mages, and specifically V. So if V gets back, she shouldn't face Z at all. Haley can handle Z without many worries like that kobold guy could (she is a master archer after all). Z also lost some spells that frizzed during the ambush.

Durkon is out of high-level spells and can't spontaneusly cast cures anymore. Plus he's still unable to cast his signature spell (Thor's Might) while underground. He is solid in hand-to-hand combat, even more now as a Vampire. If V gets back, he is the perfect match for her - not just because V used to respect him, but also because our pointy-eared trigger-happy blaster wizard would have to figure out how to take out Count Thundershield without destroying his corpse. Disintegration is out of the menu, uh?

Malak is a great target for Roy to practice that new feat he learnt from granpa. Combined with that fancy +5 greatsword blessed with that harm undead side effect that seems to be triggered by rage (not that Roy has any kind of feud with the guy who vamped his best friend, of course). Malak has also spent a lot of powerful spells both providing arty support and in his duel with Durkon.

Belkar will depend on plot. As high-level adventurers, the OOTS should have some healing mojo to restore him (like Tarkin had). If the plot requires him in, then they have. If otherwise, they have not. Probably not, since all characters are already paired up.

And Nale... well, Nale is half and Elan, and Elan "doesn't counts".

[Killer Angel]

Actually, I think it is a fairly equal fight.

They desperately need V.
Without a serious magical support, they cannot do much against summoned disposable fiends. It's a matter of attrition.

[Mantine]

Malack can just go and dominate Belkar again, together with possibly Elan and Haley.
I don't see how this is balanced.

[The Pilgrim]

Malack can just go and dominate Belkar again, together with possibly Elan and Haley.
I don't see how this is balanced.

Malak can use his gaze on ONE person at a time, and it's an standard action.

Roy will probably be delighted if Malak is willing to focus his attention on controlling a midget with 1 CON instead of dealing with the single-class fighter with a +5 anti-undead greatsword and special anti-caster feats.

[DeltaEmil]

Malack's dominating gaze is a supernatural ability. It won't provoke AoO, and it's doubtful that Roy's special new anticaster feat he might or might not have yet finalized would interrupt supernatural abilities.

[Raineh Daze]

24 ECL minimum? If he is just a weird lizardman with no legs, he gets +1 for that (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lizardfolk_%28Race%29) and +8 for vampire (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Vampire), so 21 and upwards, right?

It was late and I was remembering things wrong (I keep remembering someone saying vampire LA is +10).

But yeah, his ECL is Epic.

His class levels don't appear to match the OotS.

Where his HD are? Nobody knows.

[Kornaki]

Malak can use his gaze on ONE person at a time, and it's an standard action.

Roy will probably be delighted if Malak is willing to focus his attention on controlling a midget with 1 CON instead of dealing with the single-class fighter with a +5 anti-undead greatsword and special anti-caster feats.

Durkon also gets one gaze attack per round.

And when Malack is standing behind Nale and a pair of summoned devils, it's not exactly a stroll in the park to go up and get a single attack before being the singular focus of a pair of vampire clerics (also the last competent person alive on your team, because Haley probably died in the intervening round if nobody was targeting Roy)

[TRH]

I don't think we should expect another 'normal' fight between the LG and the OOTS in the near future. Why? Because we've done the same thing over and over again during this arc. The would be the fourth Guild on Order battle since they arrived in Bleedingham, and I can't be the only one who thinks it's getting repetitive. More to the point, the only reason the OOTS was able to come out on top in the last fight was because everything went right for them - Malack and Qarr just happened to get cut off from the rest of the battle, something that the Order couldn't have reasonably predicted; Zz'drti stopped being able to cast spells after the Holy Word was used; Nale was completely ineffectual, and Tarquin decided to bug out even though he quite possibly could have won the fight on his own. The Power of Plot is one thing, but I for one think it would be more than a little grating to see the Order get into another tussle with the LG and win only because they got unreasonably lucky again.

Besides, I'd say that the LG just took a backseat to the IFCC in terms of what we should be focusing on, anyway. We certainly can't assume Vaarsuvius is going to be able to help until after the fiends have had their say. What's more, if they only wanted to help V get back in the fight to stop the LG/Xykon, well then, we may as well consider them good guys, right? No way it's gonna be that simple.

[The Pilgrim]

Malack's dominating gaze is a supernatural ability. It won't provoke AoO, and it's doubtful that Roy's special new anticaster feat he might or might not have yet finalized would interrupt supernatural abilities.

And your point is?

Because mine is that Malak expending his turn trying to dominate one of the persons who aren't a threat to him, instead of dealing with the big guy with a +6 str belt, a +5 anti-undead greatsword and the ability to interrupt him if he attemps to cast something, is the kind of, let's call it "subpar" plan that not even Nale would come with.

Also, let's not forget that the OOTS are on the defensive inside a maze-like dungeon, and their only available sort-of-spellcaster is an illusionist of some sort. So the element of surprise is likely to be on the OOTS' side.

[Imgran]

Elan "doesn't counts".

Elan really needs to do something about Roy's attitude soon. Roy doesn't have the luxury of sidelining Elan and pretending that a mid to high level bard is a useless commodity.

There's a reason Elan brings out his most useless side when Roy's around and only shows his competence without Mr. Greenhilt about. It's because Roy sidelines him and keeps him out of anything remotely dangerous and quite frankly doesn't trust him to get anything right.

If Roy can't get over his disdain for Elan he's putting his team at a disadvantage. Elan's skill at illusion alone makes him valuable in a melee as he demonstrated here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html), disabling a low-will fighter while engaging another opponent in order to drag out the fight until help arrived.

Sure Elan can't sling fireballs around, but he's the team's only healer and a skilled tactician can use what he can do very well -- if Roy can get over his Eugene Greenhint like tendency to ignore the potential usefulness of things he finds personally irritating.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Nale is pretty useless now though, because he is missing his sword, and we've seen what happens when he fights with a dagger. Malak is dangerous, and Vamp Durkon certainly is as well, but both are almost entirely out of spells, and critically Malak doesn't know that Roy has an anti undead sword. So he might think that he or Durkon can take a few hits not realizing how much damage it does. The Fiends are nasty obviously, but considering how many traps this place has, if OOTs are clever they could try to wittle them down. I don't think anybody left in LG except maybe Kilik has a reasonable spot check.

Also OOTS would have known that Malak would be cut off, because they set themselves up their and Haley would be familiar with the traps.

[Mike Havran]

A little rain on the optimistic parade...
LG:
Tarquin, Sabine and Kilkil are not present.

Nale: technically ~lv.8 sorcerer. Has almost all his spells. Does not have sword. Has Wand of Enervation - say goodbye to your spells, Elan. Can also charm Roy and Haley, but crippling Elan with Enervation is probably the best bet. It's also something against Vaarsuvius in case she shows up.

Malack: could have almost anything ready in his staff. Probably a few negative energy spells as well. He has also dominating gaze and ghostform.

Durkula: the same. Both vampires can summon wolves or swarms in case they need something to trigger the traps or go as pawns.

Zz'dtri: has most of his spells.

Fiends: The devil has Search +16 and Spot +19, will check out the traps and ambush points. Frankly, the fiends would probably gave Roy, Haley and Elan run for their money by themselves.

Order:

Vaarsuvius: badly hurt, almost all spells ready, no way how to join the Order quickly. Has barred Conjuration, so no Dimension Doors.

Belkar: almost dead, probably out of rages as well.

Roy: Maybe fancy feat, also +5 greatsword which is not silver, so vampires have DR.

Haley: Magic bow, so DR also applies.

Elan: almost all of his spells, rapier that does basically nothing.

Order's chances of winning are next to nothing, save the Nale's team members start fighting against each other (which is probable, BTW).

[CowardlyPaladin]

A little rain on the optimistic parade...
LG:
Tarquin, Sabine and Kilkil are not present.

Nale: technically ~lv.8 sorcerer. Has almost all his spells. Does not have sword. Has Wand of Enervation - say goodbye to your spells, Elan. Can also charm Roy and Haley, but crippling Elan with Enervation is probably the best bet. It's also something against Vaarsuvius in case she shows up.

Malack: could have almost anything ready in his staff. Probably a few negative energy spells as well. He has also dominating gaze and ghostform.

Durkula: the same. Both vampires can summon wolves or swarms in case they need something to trigger the traps or go as pawns.

Zz'dtri: has most of his spells.

Fiends: The devil has Search +16 and Spot +19, will check out the traps and ambush points. Frankly, the fiends would probably gave Roy, Haley and Elan run for their money by themselves.

Order:

Vaarsuvius: badly hurt, almost all spells ready, no way how to join the Order quickly. Has barred Conjuration, so no Dimension Doors.

Belkar: almost dead, probably out of rages as well.

Roy: Maybe fancy feat, also +5 greatsword which is not silver, so vampires have DR.

Haley: Magic bow, so DR also applies.

Elan: almost all of his spells, rapier that does basically nothing.

Order's chances of winning are next to nothing, save the Nale's team members start fighting against each other (which is probable, BTW).

Note entirely accurate.

1) Nale has used two spells already, so he is a little down. Not much but still. But your right, I forgot about the wand

2) Elan has a +3 Keen Rapier, not very useful against hte Vampires but can certainly hurt Nale in a pitch considering Nale doesn't have a weapon.

3) I think the Undead Bane nature of Roy's weapon will overcome the DR, or at least the extra damage will do enough. Also lets bear in mind Durkon is a vampire spawn, not a proper vampire so he isn't even at full strength.

4) Malack is almost out of spells and that rod seems to only do raise dead tricks, which is still nasty, but he has used at least 11 charges already, maybe more.

5) Belkar isn't out of rages? I think he only used one thus far. And even without rages, he can certaintly deal damage, particuarly to Nale/Z. Its just the fact that he can't take any hits, which if he can get into Melee with Z might be enough. Still pretty useless I admit.

6) Z has used up at least 5 spells thus far, maybe 6 if Malak's flight is from Z. Also most of his feats are anti caster. So Z is still extremely dangerous, just a little less so

7) We don't know where V is, if she/he can meet up with the order, then the suprise attack can make a big difference

Advantage is still LG, but the fact is, the LG getting ride of Tarquin seems to be a horrible idea. I don't know what skils Kilkil has, but Tarquin is an extremely powerful fighter even without his axe, and also is a goo strategist. Nale and Malak are strategically hampered at the best of times, and going up against each other will cause alot more problems. If they had Tarquin, then I would basically think the Order needed to retreat, but with him intact, they ahve a fighting chance.

Does Durkon have all of his spell slots from being a vampire?

[Ghosty]

Note entirely accurate...

...Does Durkon have all of his spell slots from being a vampire?

Durkon had over 4 HD when vamped, so he comes back as a full vampire, not a spawn. Given that Durkon cast Planar Ally after being vamped, I think we can safely say that he has all of the spell slots he had remaining right before dying. Z had Flesh to Stone back in Bleedingham, which worked just fine on Haley before, so it's not all anti-caster spells he's packing.

You need V to show up, and get healed before coming under the crosshairs of the LG, for the Order to have even a wisp of a chance. And that was before the two fiends showed up. With them? Roy's a much better strategist than Nale, but there's a certain quote from Xykon about levels of power that seems to apply here...

[CowardlyPaladin]

Durkon had over 4 HD when vamped, so he comes back as a full vampire, not a spawn. Given that Durkon cast Planar Ally after being vamped, I think we can safely say that he has all of the spell slots he had remaining right before dying. Z had Flesh to Stone back in Bleedingham, which worked just fine on Haley before, so it's not all anti-caster spells he's packing.

You need V to show up, and get healed before coming under the crosshairs of the LG, for the Order to have even a wisp of a chance. And that was before the two fiends showed up. With them? Roy's a much better strategist than Nale, but there's a certain quote from Xykon about levels of power that seems to apply here...

Ok, in that case, Vamp Durkon has used up

A summon PLanar Ally, Thor's Lighting, 2 Heal, Holy Word, Stone Walk, Remove Paralysis, Hold Person, Cure Critical Wounds, Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Divine Favor, Mass Death Ward, A flight Spell, some sort of planar travel spell, 2 True Seeings, A Resurrection, a Speak with Dead, Mass Acid Resistance, Hold Person, and Remove Deafness. He also had a Resurrection spell prepared.

In addition, I doubt he can use Thor's Might now being a vampire,

[Mike Havran]

...


Nale's spells don't matter much as he'll spam Enervation from the wand anyway. Durkula is a full-fledged vampire with all the powers. Belkar needs to have 4 barbarian levels to get another rage, and he probably doesn't have so many of them.

We don't know how many spells Malack has remaining, but even if we assumed he is lv.12 without any bonus spells (and for 200-year-old vampire, getting that 22+Wis should be no problem, so that is not a terribly realistic assumption), he has still one 6th and one 5th spell ready, plus more lesser ones.

And you are still ignoring the two fiends. They are not some lame CR5 mummies, they are CR 11 bastards. Devil has hold person and teleport on will, and Unholy Blight to boot. Daemon is also nasty: teleport, bunch of resistances and darkness, spreads paralysis and slows.

Right now, the Order is basically outnumbered 3 to 6. All of them have pretty dubious saves vs. vampire domination, Haley and Elan are weak vs. Z's favourite Flesh to Stone. And Vaarsuvius is who knows where and even if they by some chance met, they have exactly one healing spell, and not a very powerful one.

[Jay R]

Don't forget that one of Nale's team wants Nale dead, and controls another of the team. There aren't only two sides here.

[Psyren]

I think Qarr is about to play an important role here. Remember, the IFCC don't want a specific side to outright win (yet), they definitely don't want V dead (yet), and I doubt he tracked V down just to gloat. Likely he was teleporting all over the place trying to find them.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Nale's spells don't matter much as he'll spam Enervation from the wand anyway. Durkula is a full-fledged vampire with all the powers. Belkar needs to have 4 barbarian levels to get another rage, and he probably doesn't have so many of them.

True, if Nale uses that wand properly (He has used I think 3 charges thus far) then the order are in trouble. Obviously a wand does make him exposed and if their is a second ambush, then taking him out or make him lose the wand then he is in trouble, but yeah, he isn't in a good place. Even if Belkar doesn't have rage, his attack is still very good, its just his defense which is weak, so if he could get to Nale, then Nale is in alot of trouble. Big if



We don't know how many spells Malack has remaining, but even if we assumed he is lv.12 without any bonus spells (and for 200-year-old vampire, getting that 22+Wis should be no problem, so that is not a terribly realistic assumption), he has still one 6th and one 5th spell ready, plus more lesser ones.

Considering Malack specifically complained about having a hard time finding things to level up against we can assume he isn't too high level. Most of his racial bonuses don't support his type anyways, but still, he is dangerous. That being said, he is pretty low on his lower level spells, and isn't a front line fighter so IF Roy can get up to him (Which is a pretty big if) then Malak is down for the count.



And you are still ignoring the two fiends. They are not some lame CR5 mummies, they are CR 11 bastards. Devil has hold person and teleport on will, and Unholy Blight to boot. Daemon is also nasty: teleport, bunch of resistances and darkness, spreads paralysis and slows.

Doesn't V have Banish? But yes, the devil's are nasty, and can most importantly either notice or suck up the damage from the traps. But yeah, they really can cause some devastation if left unchecked. But wouldn't a +5 Frost Longbow fired by a roughly level 15 archer combined with what ever damage Roy/Belkar can put out put them down fairly quickly if they can isolate the LG?



Right now, the Order is basically outnumbered 3 to 6. All of them have pretty dubious saves vs. vampire domination, Haley and Elan are weak vs. Z's favourite Flesh to Stone. And Vaarsuvius is who knows where and even if they by some chance met, they have exactly one healing spell, and not a very powerful one.

Yeah, the odds favor LG in terms of might, but not in terms of cohesion. OOTS might have some healing potions btw. So my question here is, how can OOTs win? some suggestions. I"m running under the assumption they somehow meet up with V.


1) Hope for infighting. Considering that the Vampires hate Nale, and we aren't sure of Z's loyality, Nale could find himself in trouble. That being said, why would Malak betray Nale now instead of earlier, and certainly not when Nale has something useful...of course if he simply Vamps Nale then problem solved.

2) Divide and conquer. Anybody in Nale's current group can't hold up a good fight alone. The Fiends are CR 11, Malak is low on spells and not combat oriented, Durkon has almost not spells (though you are right he is a full vampire) Nale has no weapons. Only Z could make a good show of it while under these circumstances, and even then only for a few rounds. So if OOTs can somehow divide the group they could do well

3) Proritize. If they group can take out Nale, or at least get ride of his wand then the greatest threat LG has is gone. Alternatively, killing Z then retreating could do alot to help, because you'd have no wizard. Or destroying Malak and/or Durkon. Hit and run tatics

4) Pit them against the environment. That Door was terrifying, if you can somehow utilize it against the rest of the party then maybe....

5) Ambush. A suprise round could do wonders for OOTS, due to V's spells

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm running under the assumption they somehow meet up with V.
Why? V hasn't even moved in seventeen strips. Not to mention that she isn't allowed to solve problems :smallwink:

[Raineh Daze]

V is practically useless, despite the number of spells they have remaining. Too distressed.


Considering Malack specifically complained about having a hard time finding things to level up against we can assume he isn't too high level. Most of his racial bonuses don't support his type anyways, but still, he is dangerous. That being said, he is pretty low on his lower level spells, and isn't a front line fighter so IF Roy can get up to him (Which is a pretty big if) then Malak is down for the count.

Remember, we don't know what Malack's racial HD or bonuses are exactly, so we can't pin down his total HD or stats. He might be more competent in a fight than you're assuming (or, at least, more than durable enough to not die in a single round to Roy)

[zimmerwald1915]

Remember, we don't know what Malack's racial HD or bonuses are exactly, so we can't pin down his total HD or stats. He might be more competent in a fight than you're assuming (or, at least, more than durable enough to not die in a single round to Roy)
Only the latter factor is really impacted by how much RHD he has. The additional RHD don't really give him all that much except maybe an additional ability score boost and definitely some spare BAB and HP. What really cripples Malack, though, is not the RHD themselves, but the LA attached to his Vampire template and his RHD. The LA does just about nothing other than boost his ECL.

[Raineh Daze]

Only the latter factor is really impacted by how much RHD he has. The additional RHD don't really give him all that much except maybe an additional ability score boost and definitely some spare BAB and HP. What really cripples Malack, though, is not the RHD themselves, but the LA attached to his Vampire template and his RHD. The LA does just about nothing other than boost his ECL.

One possibility for his Racial HD shoves his ECL into the mid-thirties or thereabouts, and his actual HD to the twenties. And huge stat boosts. It's not so clear, really.

LA is certainly a problem, but it has no real impact on his capabilities right now and can consequently be dismissed as irrelevant to the topic at hand (AKA, his survivability).

[TRH]

Yeah, I still think it's a bit silly to assume that Malack's helpless in close combat, especially after he grappled Durkon into helplessness. He probably has a few more cleric buffs that he could boost himself with if he had to fight Roy, and if Roy got a C- in his AOO class, then I bet he flunked out of Grappling.

Oh, and I also think we're underestimating Z here, probably as a result of his passiveness in the last fight. He's still got a whole bunch of spells left, and if he learned anything from his last fight with V then he probably prepared a stoneskin or something for Haley. Come to think of it, if he thought V was still disabled when he prepared his spells, then he would logically have a more anti-non-caster spread prepared. Regardless, he's a high-level wizard up against non-casters; he can raise all manner of hell.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Yeah, I still think it's a bit silly to assume that Malack's helpless in close combat, especially after he grappled Durkon into helplessness. He probably has a few more cleric buffs that he could boost himself with if he had to fight Roy, and if Roy got a C- in his AOO class, then I bet he flunked out of Grappling.

Oh, and I also think we're underestimating Z here, probably as a result of his passiveness in the last fight. He's still got a whole bunch of spells left, and if he learned anything from his last fight with V then he probably prepared a stoneskin or something for Haley. Come to think of it, if he thought V was still disabled when he prepared his spells, then he would logically have a more anti-non-caster spread prepared. Regardless, he's a high-level wizard up against non-casters; he can raise all manner of hell.
He hasn't had any time to prepare his spells since V has vanished, so most of his spells are likely anti caster, unless he learned his lesson from his last fight.

[Mike Havran]

1) Hope for infighting.
Yes, that's about the best hope they have. But they don't know how much can they count on it. Sure, they know that Malack hates Nale but it can't be so much otherwise he wouldn't be in pyramid.



2) Divide and conquer.That will be quite a problem, since both Nale and Z know Dimension Door, fiends teleport at will and vampires may just turn gaseous and float away.


3) Proritize. If they group can take out Nale, or at least get ride of his wand then the greatest threat LG has is gone. Alternatively, killing Z then retreating could do alot to help, because you'd have no wizard. Or destroying Malak and/or Durkon. Hit and run taticsTrue, but the narrow corridors won't help this. Daemon will probably stay close to Z and Nale as a meatshield, vampires in the rear, devil in front to sponge damage and search for traps (he has also DR10/good, so Haley won't dent him so much. They may also summon some more critters to trigger traps from safe distance. Or Malack just raises a few more Draketooths, now Durkula can also control a few of them...the fiends can also summon their kin...hell if Nale wanted, they can have ~40-member army on their own! There is no room in the corridor to ambush such numbers.


4) Pit them against the environment. That Door was terrifying, if you can somehow utilize it against the rest of the party then maybe....They disabled the door. It's useless now. And the further they advance to the pyramid, the more traps they disable, for Nale's convenience.


He hasn't had any time to prepare his spells since V has vanished, so most of his spells are likely anti caster, unless he learned his lesson from his last fight.

Z believed all the time that V was banished to Torture demiplane and is most likely dead. And he isn't so dumb that he would go without anti-arrow protection prepared again.

[Spacewolf]

Personally i'm expecting the demons to turn on the LG to keep the teams balanced. Not sure if the summoning spell will let them do that though.

[TRH]

Personally i'm expecting the demons to turn on the LG to keep the teams balanced. Not sure if the summoning spell will let them do that though.

Why would they do that, though? We know nothing about their personalities or motivations, but you'd expect them to prefer killing Good people to Evil ones.

[davidbofinger]

our pointy-eared trigger-happy blaster wizard would have to figure out how to take out Count Thundershield without destroying his corpse. Disintegration is out of the menu, uh?

Disintegrate would kill Durkon in such a way that he can never return to the Dwarven Lands. So it's fighting against prophecy. Durkon would make his saving throw, even if the universe needed to fudge the roll on his behalf.

[Jay R]

Ummmm ... guys?

Malack is not on Nale's side.

[orrion]

I don't think we should expect another 'normal' fight between the LG and the OOTS in the near future. Why? Because we've done the same thing over and over again during this arc. The would be the fourth Guild on Order battle since they arrived in Bleedingham, and I can't be the only one who thinks it's getting repetitive. More to the point, the only reason the OOTS was able to come out on top in the last fight was because everything went right for them - Malack and Qarr just happened to get cut off from the rest of the battle, something that the Order couldn't have reasonably predicted; Zz'drti stopped being able to cast spells after the Holy Word was used; Nale was completely ineffectual, and Tarquin decided to bug out even though he quite possibly could have won the fight on his own. The Power of Plot is one thing, but I for one think it would be more than a little grating to see the Order get into another tussle with the LG and win only because they got unreasonably lucky again.

Besides, I'd say that the LG just took a backseat to the IFCC in terms of what we should be focusing on, anyway. We certainly can't assume Vaarsuvius is going to be able to help until after the fiends have had their say. What's more, if they only wanted to help V get back in the fight to stop the LG/Xykon, well then, we may as well consider them good guys, right? No way it's gonna be that simple.

You're kidding, right? The fights are some of the best parts of the comic, and they've never been the same twice.

I mean, you might as well stop reading at this point if you dislike the fights, because you know the comic is leading up to a bunch of battle scenes at the end.

[Raineh Daze]

Ummmm ... guys?

Malack is not on Nale's side.

Strictly speaking, he is.

Whether it will remain this way for long enough to conclude a fight with the OotS is a different story. Malack's promise might just tip the scales.

[rodneyAnonymous]

"Nergal will eat your soul!"

[mfune]

I think the biggest factor in the order's favour is Nale. He's not an idiot, he knows that Malack is only refraining from attacking him while he's useful, and that that situation could change at any moment - and with Sabine gone and Durkon added to Malack's team the odds are not in his favour. His best chance to save his skin is to do something now, while Tarquin is away.

Here's how I see the battle going down.

LG advance to OOTS's towards the OOTS's last know position, with the fiends leading the way, and find the big door. OOTS attack again from ambush.

Round 1
Haley targets Zz'dtri with a ranged sneak attack. Elan starts signing, casts a minor illusion or does something else ineffectual. Roy advances, and Belkar lies on the ground moaning

Zz'dtr tries to return fire but his spell fizzles. Nale uses his wand to drain Elan. Malack decides to rely on the fiends to keep Roy away, and targets Haley, who appears to be the greatest threat at range. He uses his vampire gaze and successfully dominates her.
Malack doesn't want to risk Durkon in melee yet, so commands him to stay back. Durkon's pretty much out of spells so doesn't have many options for ranged combat - perhaps he tries his vampire gaze on Roy, but fails (Roy has a pretty good will save, and Durkon is still working out how to use his new powers)

Round 2
Dominated Haley turns on Elan. Elan tries to use dispel magic on her, but it doesn't work. Roy sees that Malack is controlling Haley, and that, together with his fury at what he did to his best friend, makes him throw caution to the winds and charge straight for him, ignoring the fiends in the way.

Nale sees his chance to be rid of Malack. He tells Zz'drti to command his fiend to attack Durkon's. This gets both of them out of Roy's path. Roy hits Malack, hard, and whatever spell he was preparing to cast fizzles.

Belkar tries to join the attack too, but collapses halfway to Malack. Vampire Durkon sees an easy snack and goes for him.

Round 3
Dominated Haley continues to attack Elan, who doesn't fight back, but tries to talk her back to her senses. Roy continues to beat on Malack, who fluffs his spell again / fails a grapple.

Nale decides that whoever wins the fight between Roy and Malack, he doesn't want to face them, or Tarquin when he gets back and finds out about his betrayal. Zz'dtri teleports them both out, to find somewhere to hole up and wait until Sabine can rejoin them.

Durkon chases Belkar, who tries to crawl away. He's saved by Mr Scruffy, who distracts Durkon by leaping at his face.

The fiends continue to fight each other.

Round 4
Roy kills Malack. Haley is released from her domination, and apologises emotionally to Elan for attacking him. Durkon is released from his thraldom, and overwhelmed with conflicting emotions / confusion about what has happened to him, he sits down. One of the fiends kills the other

Round 5 and after
The remaining fiend has nobody to command it, and either teleports away, or is handily defeated by Roy, Haley and Elan together. They then subdue and tie up Durkon, who is still dazed and confused and doesn't put up much of a fight.

After that they leave to lick their wounds / look for Vaarsuvius, leaving the stage clear for an epic showdown between Team Evil and the other five members of Team Tarquin, who show up simultaneously moments after the order have left.

[Raineh Daze]

I can give you one huge flaw with the above sequence:

Gaseous Form.

Being supernatural, it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunities, so there's nothing Roy can do to stop it. And that's only the most obvious problem.

[mfune]

I can give you one huge flaw with the above sequence:

Gaseous Form.

Being supernatural, it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunities, so there's nothing Roy can do to stop it. And that's only the most obvious problem.

Bummer, I hadn't thought of that. It's still possible it could work if Roy can do so much damage to him in one round that he doesn't get a chance to activate it (with his strength, power attack and +5 greatsword of undead killing he could easily make 30-40 damage a hit I recon, even after DR) but it makes it a lot less likely.

Actually, on that note, what would happen to Durkon if Malack is 'killed' and has to retreat to his coffin in gaseous form? I'm assuming that would be enough to release him from his thraldom - or would he still be under Malack's control until he is perma-killed?

[Jay R]

Ummmm ... guys?

Malack is not on Nale's side.Strictly speaking, he is.

Strictly speaking, he wants to kill Nale and is only holding off doing so dut to Tarquin's (conveniently missing) influence.

[Raineh Daze]

40-50 damage a hit? Sorry, but where on Earth are you getting those numbers from? :smallconfused:

Greatsword damage: 2d6.
Roy's Strength is unlikely to be higher than 30 at the absolute best (and is probably around the mid twenties), so that's another +7.
+5 to damage from the sword.
Probably +xd6 from the anti undead stuff.

So that's 2d6 + 12 + an unspecified amount. Assuming an average damage roll of 7, that's 19 damage before the anti-undead stuff. Getting an extra 20-something is a bit unlikely.


Strictly speaking, he wants to kill Nale and is only holding off doing so dut to Tarquin's (conveniently missing) influence.

I'm not contesting that he wants to kill Nale, I'm contesting inaccurate representation of who's on what team.

The big question is whether keeping his promise to Durkon or professionalism is more important to Malack right now. :smallamused:

[Rakoa]

40-50 damage a hit? Sorry, but where on Earth are you getting those numbers from? :smallconfused:

Greatsword damage: 2d6.
Roy's Strength is unlikely to be higher than 30 at the absolute best (and is probably around the mid twenties), so that's another +7.
+5 to damage from the sword.
Probably +xd6 from the anti undead stuff.

So that's 2d6 + 12 + an unspecified amount. Assuming an average damage roll of 7, that's 19 damage before the anti-undead stuff. Getting an extra 20-something is a bit unlikely.



Don't forget that Roy gets 1.5X strength modifier for using the sword two handed. That will give him around +16 damage with sword magical modifiers included. With an average roll of 7, total of 23 damage. Assuming the "Undead" killing properties are simply a Bane enhancement, that means an extra 2d6 damage (so another plus 7) and a +2 from additional enhancement bonus for a total average of 32. With a 2:1 Power Attack trade in, that's another 10 points of damage for a total of 42.

42 points of damage is quite a lot. And thats assuming the only named special ability is Bane, a +1 enhancement bonus. There is still room for a total of +4 more.

[mfune]

Don't forget that Roy gets 1.5X strength modifier for using the sword two handed. That will give him around +16 damage with sword magical modifiers included. With an average roll of 7, total of 23 damage. Assuming the "Undead" killing properties are simply a Bane enhancement, that means an extra 2d6 damage (so another plus 7) and a +2 from additional enhancement bonus for a total average of 32. With a 2:1 Power Attack trade in, that's another 10 points of damage for a total of 42.

42 points of damage is quite a lot. And thats assuming the only named special ability is Bane, a +1 enhancement bonus. There is still room for a total of +4 more.

Exactly. Given Malack doesn't appear to wear any armour, it doesn't seem unlikely that Roy would be able to hit with full power attack. He's also almost certainly getting another +2 from weapon specialisation, so that could be an average of 44 before DR, or 34 after.

[Belkar<3]

And your point is?

Because mine is that Malak expending his turn trying to dominate one of the persons who aren't a threat to him, instead of dealing with the big guy with a +6 str belt, a +5 anti-undead greatsword and the ability to interrupt him if he attemps to cast something, is the kind of, let's call it "subpar" plan that not even Nale would come with.

Also, let's not forget that the OOTS are on the defensive inside a maze-like dungeon, and their only available sort-of-spellcaster is an illusionist of some sort. So the element of surprise is likely to be on the OOTS' side.

Durkon has stated that all of the OOTS have bad will saves. If Malack or Durkula can't get Roy, they can can most certainly get Haley.

[TRH]

Oh, and wouldn't getting the element of surprise for the Order require that they make a successful spot check? They aren't too good at that, and their attention is turned forward at the moment.

[Raineh Daze]

Ah, forgot the two-handed thing.

I'm actually somewhat suspicious about Malack's AC. He had scales to start with, the natural armour bonus went up due to vampirism, his dexterity went up with the same... if he has any other bonuses floating around (and given magic items, that's quite likely) a full power attack would probably not be in Roy's best interests (and getting multiple hits in would be right out).

[Jay R]

I'm not contesting that he wants to kill Nale, I'm contesting inaccurate representation of who's on what team.

The big question is whether keeping his promise to Durkon or professionalism is more important to Malack right now. :smallamused:

I said "side", not team. I agree that technically Malack is wearing a "Linear Guild" team uniform. That doesn't mean he's on Nale's side.

"Professionalism"? Malack, like Tarquin, is currently in the profession of pretending to help leaders in ways that really help Malack and Tarquin's true team, but get the leaders killed off fairly quickly.

[Raineh Daze]

This sort of professionalism (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html). :smallannoyed:

[Mike Havran]

The big question is whether keeping his promise to Durkon or professionalism is more important to Malack right now. :smallamused:

Malack technically didn't promise Durkon anything. He did spare Belkar and let him go so he could warn the rest and tell them that now is a good time to withdraw. That can be pretty much as far as he is willing to go. He might not want to strike them first when they meet even now, but if they attack the Guild he'll fight without a blink.

[The Pilgrim]

Durkon has stated that all of the OOTS have bad will saves. If Malack or Durkula can't get Roy, they can can most certainly get Haley.

Assuming they can find Haley (rogues are good at sneak attaking from hidden spots) and that Haley let's them make eye contact, we still have the problem of them wasting his action in controlling her instead of dealing with the real threat.


Oh, and wouldn't getting the element of surprise for the Order require that they make a successful spot check? They aren't too good at that, and their attention is turned forward at the moment.

That's a fairly absurd argument to make considering the Order has just conducted a succesfully ambush against the LG.

[Raineh Daze]

Malack technically didn't promise Durkon anything. He did spare Belkar and let him go so he could warn the rest and tell them that now is a good time to withdraw. That can be pretty much as far as he is willing to go. He might not want to strike them first when they meet even now, but if they attack the Guild he'll fight without a blink.

Well, he's at least indicated some acceptance of the request. So, it's still 'listen to Durkon's last request' vs professionalism.

[Mike Havran]

That's a fairly absurd argument to make considering the Order has just conducted a succesfully ambush against the LG. Durkon and healthy Belkar were rather important, if not crucial, to that ambush. And they are not available now.

[TRH]

That's a fairly absurd argument to make considering the Order has just conducted a succesfully ambush against the LG.

Why? They were able to make an ambush because they were expecting pursuit, and decided to put time and effort into a counterattack. That's not on their minds right now, so they won't be ready with another battle plan like they were before.

[The Pilgrim]

Durkon and healthy Belkar were rather important, if not crucial, to that ambush. And they are not available now.

Roy planned the ambush and Haley fired it. Belkar will be available if the plot requires it, as the Order just needs to have one Restoration Scroll in their inventory to heal him. If Nale can pull a Wand of Enervation out of his ass, and Tarquin can have an ointment for cure everything in his medi-kit, it's not unreasonable that a party of high-level adventurers can pull a rather basic backup scroll from one of their Bags of Holding.

Durkon is no longer available but so aren't Tarquin or Sabine for the LG. And there is Elan, who was left out of the last ambush but is still available (and I don't think Roy can afford to neglect him anymore).

A Maze full of traps and designed to make best use of illusions for deception are also still available to Roy. Together with the expert on traps and the guy who can cast illusions.


Why? They were able to make an ambush because they were expecting pursuit, and decided to put time and effort into a counterattack. That's not on their minds right now, so they won't be ready with another battle plan like they were before.

I don't want to be rude here, but I fail to understand what thought process has led you to the conclussion that the OOTS aren't expecting pursuit any longer.

I mean, do you think that Roy believes the LG will withdraw now? After Malak taking control of Durkon? instead of moving in for the kill and seizing the McGuffin?

[Mike Havran]

Roy planned the ambush and Haley fired it. Belkar will be available if the plot requires it, as the Order just needs to have one Restoration Scroll in their inventory to heal him. If Nale can pull a Wand of Enervation out of his ass, and Tarquin can have an ointment for cure everything in his medi-kit, it's not unreasonable that a party of high-level adventurers can pull a rather basic backup scroll from one of their Bags of Holding.Oh, I'm quite certain the Order kept a few such healing scrolls. Or, more precisely, Durkon kept them. If they really had it now I'm sure that, somewhere between 880, 881 and their decision to carry on, Haley would have already used it, since it's a no-brainer that Belkar needs it badly and their Cleric is not available.


Durkon is no longer available but so aren't Tarquin or Sabine for the LG. And there is Elan, who was left out of the last ambush but is still available (and I don't think Roy can afford to neglect him anymore).

A Maze full of traps and designed to make best use of illusions for deception are also still available to Roy. Together with the expert on traps and the guy who can cast illusions.So, what can the Order do? No Holy Word, and that was pretty much the key point of their strategy. No chance of Nale being so dumb that he'll repeat the mistakes from the first ambush. I've already mentioned upthreads what can the fiends do, and that Nale&co may summon more monsters, and also they don't need to shy to use vampiric powers anymore.

[The Pilgrim]

Oh, I'm quite certain the Order kept a few such healing scrolls. Or, more precisely, Durkon kept them. If they really had it now I'm sure that, somewhere between 880, 881 and their decision to carry on, Haley would have already used it, since it's a no-brainer that Belkar needs it badly and their Cleric is not available.

As I said, if the plot requires Belkar to be able to fight, the Order will have it - or something other equivalent mojo.


So, what can the Order do? No Holy Word, and that was pretty much the key point of their strategy

Deciding what can the Order do is The Giant's job, not me. It's hard to figure out anything since we don't know whenever Belkar or V will be at Roy's disposal.

I'm just speculating that the element of surprise will be integral to Roy's strategy to survive this. If they can catch the casters with their pants down, they can win this.

In any case, the Holy Word wouldn't be available again, Durkon or not, because it would be lame to use the same trick twice.

[Mike Havran]

As I said, if the plot requires Belkar to be able to fight, the Order will have it - or something other equivalent mojo.
Yep, or they find laser guns Belkar can use in the next room. That will be even less of a stretch, since Haley foreshadowed it in 865.


I'm just speculating that the element of surprise will be integral to Roy's strategy to survive this. If they can catch the casters with their pants down, they can win this.

In any case, the Holy Word wouldn't be available again, Durkon or not, because it would be lame to use the same trick twice.By that logic, they will not have a surprise ambush either, since it would be lame to use the same plot event twice.

Yes, of course they will prevail (or, at least, survive), somehow. But it will not be due to using superior battle strategy against coherent team of enemies (that's the view they have to take), because chances of that are almost non-existent.

[Belkar<3]

Yes, but whatever the rest of the Order has for healing is probably small-scale, as they used to have a cleric. There's no way that's realistic that Belkar will go back to full hit points.

I think the key is Qarr "persuading" V to return. The problem is, (s)he is so distressed that (s)he'll have trouble concentrating on spells.

[mfune]

Ah, forgot the two-handed thing.

I'm actually somewhat suspicious about Malack's AC. He had scales to start with, the natural armour bonus went up due to vampirism, his dexterity went up with the same... if he has any other bonuses floating around (and given magic items, that's quite likely) a full power attack would probably not be in Roy's best interests (and getting multiple hits in would be right out).

Okay, I might be getting over-anal, but to run the numbers:

Let's say at a conservative estimate Roy is level 14 with 26 strength (including his belt), that gives an attack bonus of 14 + 8 + 5 (magic sword) + 1 (weapon focus) = 28.

If Malack is indeed wearing no armour, and he had average dex before vampirism, his AC would be 10 + 6 (vampirism) + 2 (vampire dex bonus) + 5 (scales) = 23.

If Roy uses full power attack, he'd have a 50% / 25% / 5% hit chance, which, assuming 34 average damage per hit after DR, gives 27 damage per round on average.

Without power attack he'd have a 75% / 50% / 25% chance of doing 24 av damage per hit, which is an average of 36 per round.

So yeah, you're right, power attack would not be his best option.

[The Pilgrim]

Yep, or they find laser guns Belkar can use in the next room. That will be even less of a stretch, since Haley foreshadowed it in 865.

Scrolls are fairy common currency in D&D, like potions. As I said early, Nale can pull a Wand of Enervation and Tarquin a non-canon extra-strong keoghtum oil and an ultra-fast regen ring. Gez, Elan can even find a home-brewed prestige class that turns him into halfway useful.

Haley pulling a scroll of restoration or similar wouldn't be a stretch at all. Plus, we have seen everyone use potions to recover to full HP and such in almost any fight. Geez, potions of lesser restoration are common ordinance in D&D, The Giant only needs to do an "extra-strenght" version or just forget the rules about potion creation and pull in a potion of restoration. It's not like both options haven't happened before.

My point here is that if The Giant needs a healed Belkar for his next plot turn, he can have it without many plot problems.


By that logic, they will not have a surprise ambush either, since it would be lame to use the same plot event twice.

That only depends on how the surprise strike materializes. Maybe they use the traps to divide the enemy party and defeat them one by one.

This is Nale we are talking about here. The Giant needed to field him with three primary casters against an OOTS deprived of it's primary casters in order to make him a credible threat.

We are so going to see an inversion of the "D&D classes are umbalanced, high-level casters are God" trope so hard we all will go back to basic.

[Mike Havran]

Haley pulling a scroll of restoration or similar wouldn't be a stretch at all. It will be a stretch because if they had had something that would help Belkar they would have already used it. Or do you expect Haley pull a "Gosh golly, I have something in my pockets that will help you Belkar, I just totally ignored it when I saw you were in deep need of it two strpis ago?"


That only depends on how the surprise strike materializes. Maybe they use the traps to divide the enemy party and defeat them one by one.They already did that "ambush using environment full of traps and element of surprise". Doing yet another ambush using environment full of traps and element of surprise, that is only marginally different from the first one, will be pretty tedious and bland.


We are so going to see an inversion of the "D&D classes are umbalanced, high-level casters are God" trope so hard we all will go back to basic.No, we aren't. Wanna bet some bragging rights? :smalltongue:

[SadisticFishing]

I think it most likely that there is no chance for the order to win a head to head confrontation, and so something interesting happens. They're right near a gate, so any number of things could go right.

"The Order wins this current 6v3.5" is not one of them, though.

[Silverionmox]

Qarr is prodding V to get moving, so the IFCC don't need to waste their possession time walking around. They want their pawn back in the game. They will make him destroy the gate at the last moment if necessary, to prolong the conflict.

V has been meditating while fleeing from undead, so it's higly likely he'll have some significant anti-undead mojo ready. Beware, Malack, Durkon, Xykon.

Given Elan's past performance Roy isn't really wrong not to rely on him. He couldn't even cast an illusion spell without V holding his hand back in Azure City. Given the lack of alternatives he'll get a chance to prove himself though.

Belkar is on schedule to make a heroic sacrifice. Which still won't be enough to get in the CN afterlife... until mister Scruffy demands it. Cats rule CN heaven, of course. :D In any case, Belkar surviving until Kraagor's is highly unlikely.

[Belkar<3]

It will be a stretch because if they had had something that would help Belkar they would have already used it. Or do you expect Haley pull a "Gosh golly, I have something in my pockets that will help you Belkar, I just totally ignored it when I saw you were in deep need of it two strpis ago?"


And they certainly would have given it to him when they started to move out the Door.

[The Pilgrim]

It will be a stretch because if they had had something that would help Belkar they would have already used it. Or do you expect Haley pull a "Gosh golly, I have something in my pockets that will help you Belkar, I just totally ignored it when I saw you were in deep need of it two strpis ago?"

They are still coping with the loss of Durkon. They probably haven't realized in what state Belkar is, still.

And Haley may remember at any moment that she owns Belkar a potion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) (such a brick joke would be enough to make the audience forget about any stretching)


They already did that "ambush using environment full of traps and element of surprise". Doing yet another ambush using environment full of traps and element of surprise, that is only marginally different from the first one, will be pretty tedious and bland.

They have already went two rounds against the LG in this story arc, anyway. Third time is the charm.


No, we aren't. Wanna bet some bragging rights? :smalltongue

I have my chips on the table already. Bring it on. :smallbiggrin:

[Mike Havran]

They are still coping with the loss of Durkon. They probably haven't realized in what state Belkar is, still.

And Haley may remember at any moment that she owns Belkar a potion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) (such a brick joke would be enough to make the audience forget about any stretching)They already realized that Belkar is half-dead and he mentioned it a few times that he was drained.

But hey, let's bet on it as well. More bragging chips say the Order won't use anything of their current inventory to restore Belkar.

[The Pilgrim]

They already realized that Belkar is half-dead and he mentioned it a few times that he was drained.

But hey, let's bet on it as well. More bragging chips say the Order won't use anything of their current inventory to restore Belkar.

I won't go down to somethig that specific unless you put on the table your own hypoteses on how the OOTS are gonna get from this one. :smalltongue:

[Mike Havran]

I won't go down to somethig that specific unless you put on the table your own hypoteses on how the OOTS are gonna get from this one. :smalltongue:

Good question. After #861, I've rather extensively argued that the Order should try their best to contact Vaarsuvius and retreat to get Belkar healed. Because I don't really see them mounting any offensive plan that has more than negligible chance of success.

What's their best bet after they decided not to regroup&retreat? The core lies in the fact that Elan throws an illusion of a wall to the part of the corridor that leads to big door. Since there are other two branches nearby, chances that Nale's team misses the illusion and will continue through the different corridor are pretty decent. (!They don't have Tarquin's True Seeing anymore!) Now, those corridors will certainly not lead to the area behind warded door, otherwise the wards would be silly. Hopefully the false corridors have strong traps in them. This doesn't solve Order's troubles permanently but if pulled off, it gives them time.

But how they get out of this in the long run? Well, because of some external influence they did not willingly planned.

I would say the Order will eventually go through the gate to the Snarl-world and then the LG and TE will fight it out and destroy the gate in the process. The guess of all the events is beyond me though, with all those unknowns ranging from how will Vaarsuvius get out of that corridor through Tarquin's plan to Girard's ultimate epic protection

[Belkar<3]

I would say the Order will eventually go through the gate to the Snarl-world and then the LG and TE will fight it out and destroy the gate in the process. The guess of all the events is beyond me though, with all those unknowns ranging from how will Vaarsuvius get out of that corridor through Tarquin's plan to Girard's ultimate epic protection

Wait, but anything that goes into the Snarl is un-created. Right?

[TRH]

Wait, but anything that goes into the Snarl is un-created. Right?

That's just what they want you to think! Nobody who really knows what's on the other side of the Rifts has ever returned, right?

[The Pilgrim]

suff

Ok. Now goes my speculation, then. :smallbiggrin:

Given how dire the situation is for the Order, Roy will have to stop neglecting Elan and command him like a member of the team. They will use the traps plus some illusions by Elan to force attrition on the LG and possibly divide them. Then they will move in and bone them. Malack escapes with Durkon.

Then Tarquin and the rest of his party steps in. Before they can wipe out the Order, the IFCC takes command of V and destroys the Gate. I suspect destroying all the gates and unmading the World is the IFCC plan to show their superiors how much can be achieved with inter-fiendish cooperation and convince them to give more funding to their department.

Team Evil arrives just in time to be within 1,000 feet range of the CCCRRACKKKAKKOOOM!!!

[Olinser]

The Linear Guild is going to go down HARD, for one reason (the reason that Tarquin has found an excuse to remove himself from their presence).

They contain an individual that has just vampirized the Designated Hero's best friend.

Seriously, name ONE example where that has ended well for the one doing the vamping.




As for V, Quarr doesn't really have to convince hir of anything. All he has to do is either get hir to run in shame from him, or get hir to chase him, right into the LG/OOTS fight.

I'd like to THINK that V, when confronted with a fight, would be able to put aside the wangst for a minute and help them out.

[Dire Lemming]

Malack wins.

[Raineh Daze]

Malack's survival, if Durkon is going to remain ambulatory for any length of time, is largely guaranteed until he can teach Durkon Protection from Sunlight.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Malack's survival, if Durkon is going to remain ambulatory for any length of time, is largely guaranteed until he can teach Durkon Protection from Sunlight.

That seems like a bizarre notion, every other vampire character I know of does fine without such a spell.

[Olinser]

That seems like a bizarre notion, every other vampire character I know of does fine without such a spell.

I have to agree, there are plenty of other ways. Protection from Daylight is only useful if they plan on keeping VAMPIRE Durkon around.

Most obviously, stake him and cart his body around until they can resurrect him.

Less obvious, chain him up inside a coffin and cart him around until you figure out a way to reverse vampirism. Or, cart him around until you find a cleric, THEN stake him and resurrect him.

[TRH]

I have to agree, there are plenty of other ways. Protection from Daylight is only useful if they plan on keeping VAMPIRE Durkon around.

Most obviously, stake him and cart his body around until they can resurrect him.

Less obvious, chain him up inside a coffin and cart him around until you figure out a way to reverse vampirism. Or, cart him around until you find a cleric, THEN stake him and resurrect him.

Yeah, because that wouldn't waste the whole idea of a party member being forcibly turned evil at all. Never mind prophecies or the OOTS' general inability to accomplish anything the easy way, either. These ideas just make too much damn sense not to happen.

[Mike Havran]

Yeah, because that wouldn't waste the whole idea of a party member being forcibly turned evil at all. Never mind prophecies or the OOTS' general inability to accomplish anything the easy way, either. These ideas just make too much damn sense not to happen.

Not to mention that Durkon is supposed to deliver some Death and Destruction to his homeland.

[Olinser]

Not to mention that Durkon is supposed to deliver some Death and Destruction to his homeland.

Which has been argued back and forth so much that it officially registers as, 'zombie horse that has been beaten so much it is an unrecognizable pile of giblets'.

Briefly, there are plenty of ways that he can bring 'death and destruction' without being a vampire (most obviously Xykon chasing them, less obviously failing to save the Gate and the world is destroyed).

[Raineh Daze]

So... you believe that it'd more likely that he'll be disabled in some way pretty much immediately, rather than actually... well... playing some sort of narrative role due to vampirism? :smallconfused

[Olinser]

So... you believe that it'd more likely that he'll be disabled in some way pretty much immediately, rather than actually... well... playing some sort of narrative role due to vampirism? :smallconfused

No, I think his role in the narrative is going to be the party figuring out what the hell to do with him.

Regardless of how much original Durkon is in control, I seriously doubt any of the party are going to trust Durkon enough to have him come along as anything other than a chained prisoner or a corpse(at least at first, if the endgame really is to have Durkula in the party).

I mean, would YOU trust somebody that already sucked the blood of one teammate (Belkar), and then suddenly said, "Hey guys, I'm cool now, you don't have to worry about me!"

Purely from a meta standpoint, Durkon being a vampire doesn't grant him any real advantages against Xykon (except immunity to death energy, which they have with mass death ward anyway), and he basically condemns himself to be multiple levels behind the party due to his high ECL.

[Raineh Daze]

I... what.

You're still basically writing Durkon out of stuff as much as Roy's corpse, only we don't get to gloss over the absence. :smallconfused:

It also seems... kind of pointless to have him turned into a vampire, but not look at what it means when you turn an excessively Lawful Good dwarf into something like that. :smallconfused:

[Olinser]

I... what.

You're still basically writing Durkon out of stuff as much as Roy's corpse, only we don't get to gloss over the absence. :smallconfused:

It also seems... kind of pointless to have him turned into a vampire, but not look at what it means when you turn an excessively Lawful Good dwarf into something like that. :smallconfused:

No, I'm saying I think that the path the comic is going to follow is them having a chained Durkon and trying to figure out what to do. They really can't risk believing that he's in total control, even if his old personality is intact.

And they have to balance that with the fact that they will presumably have to hightail it towards Kraagor's Gate. Perhaps the climax will come with somebody realizing that they don't have a choice but to trust him, and letting Durkula out to fight.

What I'm saying is I think the odds of them killing Malack and then just accepting a vampirized Durkon into the party are close to nil.

[Raineh Daze]

Can't say I expect him to die so immediately after turning Durkon into a vampire, with one reason outlined above (and another being that I honestly expect to see an argument between Malack and a non-thrall Durkon).

[TRH]

No, I'm saying I think that the path the comic is going to follow is them having a chained Durkon and trying to figure out what to do. They really can't risk believing that he's in total control, even if his old personality is intact.

And they have to balance that with the fact that they will presumably have to hightail it towards Kraagor's Gate. Perhaps the climax will come with somebody realizing that they don't have a choice but to trust him, and letting Durkula out to fight.

What I'm saying is I think the odds of them killing Malack and then just accepting a vampirized Durkon into the party are close to nil.

I would think the logical conclusion to that train of thought would be that the Order doesn't get to make such a choice, because Durkula doesn't get captured by them. Any particular reason you're discounting that possibility?

[Mike Havran]

Which has been argued back and forth so much that it officially registers as, 'zombie horse that has been beaten so much it is an unrecognizable pile of giblets'.OoooHhhhh... I recognise a similar zombie dead horse that kept on saying that Malack is a vampire ... guess how that turned out.


Briefly, there are plenty of ways that he can bring 'death and destruction' without being a vampire (most obviously Xykon chasing them, less obviously failing to save the Gate and the world is destroyed).So...which way do you think the prophecy will be fullfilled?


No, I think his role in the narrative is going to be the party figuring out what the hell to do with him.

Regardless of how much original Durkon is in control, I seriously doubt any of the party are going to trust Durkon enough to have him come along as anything other than a chained prisoner or a corpse(at least at first, if the endgame really is to have Durkula in the party). Did you ... did you just relegate Durkon into role of an object?


Purely from a meta standpoint, Durkon being a vampire doesn't grant him any real advantages against Xykon (except immunity to death energy, which they have with mass death ward anyway), and he basically condemns himself to be multiple levels behind the party due to his high ECL.Purely from a meta standpoint, the Order suck ass and do not stand a withered rat's chance of defeating Xykon.

[Olinser]

OoooHhhhh... I recognise a similar zombie dead horse that kept on saying that Malack is a vampire ... guess how that turned out.

So...which way do you think the prophecy will be fullfilled?

Did you ... did you just relegate Durkon into role of an object?

Purely from a meta standpoint, the Order suck ass and do not stand a withered rat's chance of defeating Xykon.

And it was beaten to death, and the answer was always, "Yes, it's possible. We don't know until Rich decides to confirm or disprove it somehow."

Me personally? I think them having a fight with Xykon in the middle of the dwarven homelands is most likely. Especially if Girard's Gate is destroyed, Xykon is going to be PISSED. He only has 1 more shot - he may very well finally decide he has to get rid of whats-his-name with the green hilted sword before ever going to Kraagor's Gate, so he doesn't risk the last Gate. If they took Durkon back to the dwarven homelands to be raised or his body buried, that would certainly set the stage for the confrontation.

Technically, if they end up staking Durkon... I guess you could call him an object, if you considered Roy to be an object while he was dead.

But going back to what I said, I can't imagine Roy taking Durkon along as anything other than a prisoner or a corpse. There is no possible scenario I can come up with that would result in them trusting him as a vampire, at least not without an extended period of time as a prisoner proving that they CAN trust him.

[TRH]

I'm really getting curious as to why you're ignoring the possibility that what happens to Durkon isn't something for the Order to decide - surely it's occurred to you that people other than them might walk away from Girard's pyramid alive? That Tarquin and Malack might? They've certainly received an awful lot of development for single-arc villains. I mean, compare them to Bozzok or Kubota; there's a lot more to the former two and they've been built up one way or another for most of the comic. At this point, an unceremonious snuffing must seem like a waste of all of that effort, doesn't it?

[Mike Havran]

And it was beaten to death, and the answer was always, "Yes, it's possible. We don't know until Rich decides to confirm or disprove it somehow." Well...yes, but I guess you can call 99.9% of the forum speculations that way, then :smallamused:


Me personally? I think them having a fight with Xykon in the middle of the dwarven homelands is most likely. Especially if Girard's Gate is destroyed, Xykon is going to be PISSED. He only has 1 more shot - he may very well finally decide he has to get rid of whats-his-name with the green hilted sword before ever going to Kraagor's Gate, so he doesn't risk the last Gate. If they took Durkon back to the dwarven homelands to be raised or his body buried, that would certainly set the stage for the confrontation.I don't really think that would fit the prophecy well - Durkon is neither allied with Xykon nor would any of his actions change this.


Technically, if they end up staking Durkon... I guess you could call him an object, if you considered Roy to be an object while he was dead.When Roy died, he still got the comic time (and lines and stuff) as a spirit, but Durkon would be a different case since staked vampire is still a vampire, just it can't talk or do anything. And doing nothing but being in a coffin with staked heart would be pretty disregarding to Durkon as a character. It is possible that the spirit Durkon and vampire Durkon are separate beings, but then there is no need to stake the vampire and turn him into an object instead of continuing with him as a character, since it will bring a lot of possibilities for character developement.


But going back to what I said, I can't imagine Roy taking Durkon along as anything other than a prisoner or a corpse. There is no possible scenario I can come up with that would result in them trusting him as a vampire, at least not without an extended period of time as a prisoner proving that they CAN trust him.I certainly can and the reason would be that they will be at a point where they simply won't have any other choice. Consider their treatment of Belkar - do you think they trust him? I don't, and yet they don't treat him as prisoner or anything. The situation doesn't look so rosy that Roy could afford to be picky - he'll just need to take any help he can get.

[Olinser]

Well...yes, but I guess you can call 99.9% of the forum speculations that way, then :smallamused:

I don't really think that would fit the prophecy well - Durkon is neither allied with Xykon nor would any of his actions change this.

When Roy died, he still got the comic time (and lines and stuff) as a spirit, but Durkon would be a different case since staked vampire is still a vampire, just it can't talk or do anything. And doing nothing but being in a coffin with staked heart would be pretty disregarding to Durkon as a character. It is possible that the spirit Durkon and vampire Durkon are separate beings, but then there is no need to stake the vampire and turn him into an object instead of continuing with him as a character, since it will bring a lot of possibilities for character developement.

I certainly can and the reason would be that they will be at a point where they simply won't have any other choice. Consider their treatment of Belkar - do you think they trust him? I don't, and yet they don't treat him as prisoner or anything. The situation doesn't look so rosy that Roy could afford to be picky - he'll just need to take any help he can get.

Nobody is saying Durkon is allied with Xykon. 'Bring' has many different definitions. By constantly thwarting Xykon, and causing him to pursue them to the dwarven homelands, Durkon has 'brought' him (and the death and destruction he brings) back to his homeland.

(And of course, theres the possibility that the prophecy isn't a real prophecy at all, after all, the only true oracle is the.. well, Oracle. There is no guarantee that the previous high priest of Thor's prophecy is actually solid)

That's why I said the prophecy was a dead horse. So many different possibilities are there that would fulfill the letter of the prophecy with Durkon alive, dead, good, evil, vamped, or transformed into an anthropomorphic bunny.

[Coat]

If Durkon were to end up working alongside Team Tarquin as a free-willed vampire - because of a shared interest in stopping Xykon/saving the world, for example - that would provide plenty of opportunity to question some core values.

That would also leave the OotS with limited healing and no resurrection - i.e. removing a game mechanic that in narrative robs conflict of a lot of its tension.

That would also give the OotS a very strong incentive to make use of all the skills of all the team members (i.e. Elan) effectively. Because without a healer, the alternative is unpleasant.


I don't think the coming encounter will end up killling Malack - because there is still a lot of story there - or Nale. Nale's story thread with Sabine needs to be wound up properly. That said, I do think someone's going to get his arrogant behind handed to him.


Regarding Malack's 'empty' 8 levels of vampire: they give him +6 str (on top of +2 from lizardfolk), a level-draining slam attack, +6 AC (+5 more from lizardfolk) DR 10/silver, and 5HP per round regeneration. Couple that with magic items, and a bunch of cleric buffs, like divine power and righteous might (another +10Str, combined), and I'm not convinced he couldn't go toe-to-toe with Roy. And he's not a front-rank fighter.

Don't think of it as 8 wasted levels for a primary caster. Just think of Malack as a vampire/cleric and all that can do. He gets +8 to hide and move sliently. He can take gaseous form, spider climb and shape change. He's pretty much a perfect skirmisher and attrition fighter - let the grunts and meat shields break the party up, attack from hiding, pick off the weak or pull back if it goes wrong, regenerate, try again.

Somewhere like the pyramid is perfect for him. Notice how he had no trap damage when he met up with Belkar? Vampires get +8 to search and spot.

The +8 ECL for a vampire is because someone decided vampire powers are as dangerous as 8 class levels. Malack was pretty much toying with Durkon - the fight ended as soon as Malack wanted it to. If the gloves come off, I think the Giant might show us why vampires get +8 ECL.

[denthor]

A little rain on the optimistic parade...
LG:
Tarquin, Sabine and Kilkil are not present.

Nale: technically ~lv.8 sorcerer. Has almost all his spells. Does not have sword. Has Wand of Enervation - say goodbye to your spells, Elan. Can also charm Roy and Haley, but crippling Elan with Enervation is probably the best bet. It's also something against Vaarsuvius in case she shows up.

Malack: could have almost anything ready in his staff. Probably a few negative energy spells as well. He has also dominating gaze and ghostform.

Durkula: the same. Both vampires can summon wolves or swarms in case they need something to trigger the traps or go as pawns.

Zz'dtri: has most of his spells.

Fiends: The devil has Search +16 and Spot +19, will check out the traps and ambush points. Frankly, the fiends would probably gave Roy, Haley and Elan run for their money by themselves.

Order:

Vaarsuvius: badly hurt, almost all spells ready, no way how to join the Order quickly. Has barred Conjuration, so no Dimension Doors.

Belkar: almost dead, probably out of rages as well.

Roy: Maybe fancy feat, also +5 greatsword which is not silver, so vampires have DR.

Haley: Magic bow, so DR also applies.

Elan: almost all of his spells, rapier that does basically nothing.

Order's chances of winning are next to nothing, save the Nale's team members start fighting against each other (which is probable, BTW).

Roy's sword is +5 and undead bane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html)so the vampire does not get damage reduction

Comic 297

[hamishspence]

Actually, it's not clear that it is undead bane. It could easily be a homebrew magic effect, given that it glows when Roy attacks Sabine and Miko, as well.

In any case, DR 10/Silver And Magic, means that, whatever Roy's sword is, if it's not silver as well, a vampire gets its DR.

[Yumori Zatsuken]

Actually, it's not clear that it is undead bane. It could easily be a homebrew magic effect, given that it glows when Roy attacks Sabine and Miko, as well.

In any case, DR 10/Silver And Magic, means that, whatever Roy's sword is, if it's not silver as well, a vampire gets its DR.
Starmetal has an effect against the undead.IF you count Durkula and Malack,they will have a little DR instead,because of the starmetal.And plus, they met Xykon

[Stormlock]

I don't think the coming encounter will end up killling Malack - because there is still a lot of story there - or Nale. Nale's story thread with Sabine needs to be wound up properly. That said, I do think someone's going to get his arrogant behind handed to him.


Regarding Malack's 'empty' 8 levels of vampire: they give him +6 str (on top of +2 from lizardfolk), a level-draining slam attack, +6 AC (+5 more from lizardfolk) DR 10/silver, and 5HP per round regeneration. Couple that with magic items, and a bunch of cleric buffs, like divine power and righteous might (another +10Str, combined), and I'm not convinced he couldn't go toe-to-toe with Roy. And he's not a front-rank fighter.

Don't think of it as 8 wasted levels for a primary caster. Just think of Malack as a vampire/cleric and all that can do. He gets +8 to hide and move sliently. He can take gaseous form, spider climb and shape change. He's pretty much a perfect skirmisher and attrition fighter - let the grunts and meat shields break the party up, attack from hiding, pick off the weak or pull back if it goes wrong, regenerate, try again.

Somewhere like the pyramid is perfect for him. Notice how he had no trap damage when he met up with Belkar? Vampires get +8 to search and spot.

The +8 ECL for a vampire is because someone decided vampire powers are as dangerous as 8 class levels. Malack was pretty much toying with Durkon - the fight ended as soon as Malack wanted it to. If the gloves come off, I think the Giant might show us why vampires get +8 ECL.

I dunno, I could see Malack shuffling off pretty soon. I totally agree with you on the +8 ECL for vampires being totally justified, Malack is friggin scary. But the comic has never bothered much about who should win fights based on relative strength. If the Giant feels like doing so for dramatic effect, Malack will get killed by Scruffy, logic be damned. And the potential for some interesting stories didn't save Miko from getting offed by "rocks fall, characters I don't want to write anymore die." So I think Malack's fate is a coinflip. Durkon and Belkar and Tarquin as well. Throw in Z and the kobold for good measure. I certainly don't think they'll ALL die, but I wouldn't bat an eye seeing any of them on the chopping block.

Nale and Sabine I think do need to stick around longer, since they have blatantly unresolved plot threads that aren't going to unravel before the fight for the gate is done and the dust is settled. Likewise the rest of the order is probably safe, as are Xykon and Redcloak, obviously.

[Thrillhouse]

One thing worth mentioning--of the current members he's leading, only Z (and the fiend he summoned) is fully loyal to Nale. Malack hates Nale and is waiting for revenge, Durkon will do whatever Malack tells him, and Durkon's summoned fiend will follow suit. Thus, THREE of Malack's current team will be lost if Malack changes his mind about postponing his revenge, and God knows Nale isn't smart enough that we can be sure he won't provoke it.

You might say that Malack, Durkon, and Durkon's fiend would be a decent match for the Order anyway--but if a fight between "Team Nale" and "Team Malack" occurs, even the victorious team is going to be weakened significantly by that fight. And if Malack wins, there is a decent chance he won't even bother with the Order--they dying Durkon's last request was that Malack spare his friends.

There is of course the issue of returning to Tarquin with the news that he turned on Nale, but he may just lie about it and/or argue it was necessary or justified.

[Aldrakan]

Purely from a meta standpoint, Durkon being a vampire doesn't grant him any real advantages against Xykon (except immunity to death energy, which they have with mass death ward anyway), and he basically condemns himself to be multiple levels behind the party due to his high ECL.

Well it gives him immunity to death energy that can't be dispelled, which might be important. Also, exactly how many levels do you expect any of them to gain before they face Xykon again? It's not like the ECL modifier is applied retroactively.