[3.5] Grappling and spiked armor

[hisnamehere]

What does the spiked armor do?
Does it replace your unarmed grapple dmg with lethal piercing dmg?
Does it count as a light weapon for attack during a grapple? If so, can you make iterative attacks at higher BAB?

Playgroundians, discuss!

[Keneth]

If you're still using the 3.5 grapple system. Don't. :smallbiggrin:

From what I remember, armor spikes just count as a light weapon with which you can attack during a grapple. But there have been plenty of discussions on the matter over the years.

[hisnamehere]

Oh, good. Well, I figured, actually. I only seem to have questions about the really weird stuff.
Does Pathfinder do grappling better?
Can you attack more than once a round with armor spikes?

[Keneth]

I'd like to say that PF does grappling better, but the simple fact is, you still need 3 flowcharts to figure it out, so...

I do like like combat maneuvers in Pathfinder though, while they're arguably nerfed a bit because of increased feat investments, they do provide some nice consistency across the board. That includes grappling.

And no, you can only make one attack when grappling iirc, which is part of the reason why no one grapples. :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

What does the spiked armor do?
Does it replace your unarmed grapple dmg with lethal piercing dmg?
Does it count as a light weapon for attack during a grapple? If so, can you make iterative attacks at higher BAB?Exactly what it says it does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorSpikes). Adds, not replaces. Yes. Yes.

[JusticeZero]

And no, you can only make one attack when grappling iirc, which is part of the reason why no one grapples. :smallbiggrin:
Some people grapple... usually because they value the thing they are grappling being locked down while they do it.

[Allanimal]

And no, you can only make one attack when grappling iirc, which is part of the reason why no one grapples. :smallbiggrin:


The Rules Compendium disagrees:


A creature that has a high enough base attack bonus can use a full-round action to make a grapple check for every extra attack its base attack bonus would allow it if it were a character. That means such a creature can make two grapple checks if its base attack bonus is +6 to +10, three if +11 to +15, and four if +16 or higher.

[Keneth]

Doesn't that just mean you can attempt to grapple a creature multiple times? Or is an attack during an existing grapple also part of what's called a grapple check? :smallconfused:

To quote Monte at the recent Torment wrap party:

What we wanted to do was make something that was so difficult, that you felt like a complete idiot when you couldn't pull them off, and therefore we created the grappling rules.

I'll be perfectly happy if I never have to make another 3.5 grapple check in my life. :smallbiggrin:

[MirddinEmris]

Never understood complaints about complexity of grappling rules myself - usually it boils down to 1-2 checks per round and no more difficult than full-attack action.

[Keneth]

What it boils down to is really kind of irrelevant, you have to know the entirety of the rules to figure out what it boils down to, and no one really wants to learn them. So what it actually boils down to, is the whole group frantically looking through the rulebooks, or cheat sheets, or whatever you might be using, every time someone proclaims they want to start a grapple. The whole thing is needlessly bloated and complex, and most of the time you're just better off straight whacking them.

[ericgrau]

Lol it's complicated but it isn't horrible. It could be 100 times worse. I have grappling in my sig cheat sheets btw and it's only a page.

You can make an opposed grapple check to deal damage with armor spikes in place of an attack. You may also use a light weapon, including armor spikes, to make an attack roll at a -4 penalty. When grappling you get as many attacks as you do when you're not grappling. Except for the extra attacks that are specifically prohibited like TWF. Or other illegal bonus attacks like those for a ranged weapon, flurrying when not making only monk weapon attack rolls, etc.

Initiating a grapple is likewise an attack so, yes, you can attempt it more than once. It's no different than all the other special attacks like tripping.

[Keneth]

It could be 100 times worse.

How could it possibly be 100 times worse? I've never seen a roleplaying system with more complex grappling rules than 3.0/3.5. :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

I've heard horror stories. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrapplingWithGrapplingRules)

[Allanimal]

and most of the time you're just better off straight whacking them.

there are plenty of creatures with improved grab and swallow whole and similar abilities that require grappling. These kinds of encounters I find enjoyable, because it means something other than another boring whack Fest is happening. You'll never get to experience the wonders of Dalmosh's gullet without a little grapple in your game.

[hisnamehere]

Heh. Let's hold off on the grapple good/grapple bad debate, and I'll just say thanks for clearing up the armor spikes question. And, yeah, it kinda was right there in the description...oops!

Extra big tanks for all! (but they don't have grapple bonuses)

[Greenish]

Never understood complaints about complexity of grappling rules myself - usually it boils down to 1-2 checks per round and no more difficult than full-attack action.Really, the biggest issue is trying to remember what action each of the options requires. Then you just have to know whether or not they require grapple checks and you're golden. :smallamused: