Is a Rogue/sorcerer combo a good idea?

[Reaver]

What I have in mind for this is a rogue heavy build that has the ability to cast invisibility spells and others to aid in sneaking or in escape. would this make sense or is going pure rogue a better idea?
I've heard that sneak attacks aren't allowed when using invisibility, which doesn't make sense to me. stabbing someone in the back is going to have the same result whether you reached that back through sneaking stealthily up or casting a spell and then walking over.

[Shinizak]

What I have in mind for this is a rogue heavy build that has the ability to cast invisibility spells and others to aid in sneaking or in escape. would this make sense or is going pure rogue a better idea?
I've heard that sneak attacks aren't allowed when using invisibility, which doesn't make sense to me. stabbing someone in the back is going to have the same result whether you reached that back through sneaking stealthily up or casting a spell and then walking over.

Sneak attack does indeed function while invisible (and grants you automatic sneak attack), however attacking in anyway ends the spell unless you are using greater invisibility, so you otherwise get a free sneak attack and then the spell ends.

[Reaver]

makes sense. So would this be multiclassing or a hybrid? I'm not completely clear on the difference.

[TuggyNE]

What I have in mind for this is a rogue heavy build that has the ability to cast invisibility spells and others to aid in sneaking or in escape. would this make sense or is going pure rogue a better idea?

It's not necessarily a bad idea, but it's probably more efficient to dip a single level of Wizard or Sorcerer just to be sure you can use wands, and then use your spell slots for whatever randomness you want.


makes sense. So would this be multiclassing or a hybrid? I'm not completely clear on the difference.

Multiclassing, assuming you're running 3.x, but other than that I can't say. What system is this?

[Hylas]

If you are using Pathfinder then you can play as a Rogue variant called Ninja. They get ki points which they can use for special abilites and one of the abilities you can choose is invisibility at will. Eventually it can turn into greater invisibility.

Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point.

Invisible Blade (Su): Whenever a ninja uses the vanishing trick ninja trick, she is treated as if she were under the effects of greater invisibility. The ninja must have the vanishing trick ninja trick before selecting this ninja trick.


Alternatively, I would suggest the arcane trickster. Though as a straight sorcerer/rogue, you'll be looking at sorcerer 6/rogue 3/arcane trickster X. You can enter earlier using tricks if you want.

Also, you can just get a wand of invisibility and beef up your Use Magic Device skill.

The choices are your's and your's alone.

EDIT: A single level dip into an arcane caster is a very good idea for wand usage. I'm going to suggest bard, actually, instead of wizard or sorcerer so you can also use wands of cure light wounds.

[Hyde]

At the mention of "hybrid" I'm going to assume 4e.

In which case I would answer "if you want to progress your sorcererness beyond the ability to cast invisibility, then hybrid. if invisibility is all you want, multiclass".

I warn you that all multiclass options in 4e are just awful.

If you're playing 3.x, then Sorc 3 Rogue Whatever is not awful.

[infomatic]

If it's 3.x, Sorc3/AlmostAnything is a bad idea, as level 3 Sorceror gets you practically nothing.

In 3.x Core-only, Sorc6/Rog3/ArcaneTricksterX is OK, though suffers greatly at low-to-mid levels when you have few spells, few skill spoints, little sneak attack, low-BAB, etc. (Wizard/Rogue will do better, as you'll at least have the Intelligence to keep some skills going.)

And a straight Rogue with Use Magic Device maxed out (which it always should be) will be able to do all you want to do with the sorceror/rogue combo. AND have the skills you need to be a rogue.

In 3.5 with lots of books, Wiz/Rogue to level 5, then UnseenSeerX is much better.

If it's 4, I'll defer to anybody else.

[Ramza00]

If 3.5

Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5

7d6 Sneak Attack (1d6 Rogue, 4d6 Unseen Seer, 2d6 Arcane Trickster)

Near Full Sorcerer Spellcasting 19/20. Use Practiced Spellcaster and you cast your spells with equal caster to your hit dice and you cast divination spells at +3 caster level.

Take the feat arcane strike, craft those gloves of two weapon fighting and play an intelligent belkar, I hide before I stab thee :smallwink:

[Scow2]

But how would that build work before level 20, Ramza?

[Verte]

I would say it makes sense, without knowing anything else about the character concept, the edition, or what level the game starts at. Assuming 3.X (since that's what I know) if it starts at level 5 or above, I think Sorcerer 4/Rogue X would work pretty well. I don't think Wizard 3/Rogue X would be much better than a full rogue with Use Magic Device for this purpose. It really depends on what else you want to do - if you want lots of skills, and are starting at a lower level, full rogue may be more fitting. Note that I'm not talking about what is most optimized relative to everyone in your party, just what might work with the concept you're think of. And yeah, at least a few levels of Unseen Seer would probably work - I would probably try to negate the hit to caster level for non-divination schools in some fashion.

[SimonMoon6]

In 3.x, for the most part, having a build that's only partly spellcaster (as opposed to mostly spellcaster or a one-level dip) is usually not that great. You'll have given up a lot of the other class (rogue) stuff just to get: low level spells with low save DCs that are easily dispelled and can't get through SR reliably.

And if that's what you want, stick to magic items. Wanna be invisible? There's an app (potion) for that. Want to spider climb? There's an app for that. Want to fly? There's an app for that. Want to use wands? Take a one level dip.

Now, it's slightly cool to cast certain damaging spells that you can sneak attack with, but I don't know how useful that will be (see again: you won't get through SR with low spellcaster levels).

[gorfnab]

Here are some guides that may be of help.
Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350)
Sneak Attacking Spellcasters Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)

Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Two) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a)

[mjlush]

What I have in mind for this is a rogue heavy build that has the ability to cast invisibility spells and others to aid in sneaking or in escape. would this make sense or is going pure rogue a better idea?
I've heard that sneak attacks aren't allowed when using invisibility, which doesn't make sense to me. stabbing someone in the back is going to have the same result whether you reached that back through sneaking stealthily up or casting a spell and then walking over.

True strike is your friend, you can use all sorts of insane targeted shots to work with that. (I managed to throw a potion of intoxication into a dragons mouth... pity he made his save)

I can see interesting uses for called shots with Thunderstones and/or tangelfoot bags :smallbiggrin:

[Ramza00]

But how would that build work before level 20, Ramza?

For the first couple levels just play as a sneaky sorcerer, you are only 1 caster level behind a normal sorcerer in exchange for that 1 loss level you gain a small amount of sneak attack and much better skills.

Mid levels think of yourself as a normal rogue, but more fragile and you do not have a good reflex save or evasion but in return you get buff spells (and a better will save). Your growing pains pretty much stop after level 7 when you gain access to 3rd level spells.

At level 9 you start becoming a true hybrid. You only do 3d6 sneak attack damage due to classes, but now you have 4th level spells (for example improved invisibility), and can take arcane strike as your 9th level feat

At level 10 you are doing 4 attacks (just like the rogue), two due to bab, one due to twf, one due to the gloves of the balanced hand you bought/crafted. This is before haste and such

Feats
1 Two Weapon Fighting
3 Open
6 Practiced Spellcaster Sorcerer
9 Arcane Strike

[ericgrau]

Arcane trickster works fine, especially for sneak attack on ray spells. If you don't have an arcane caster in the party, it's also a great way to get greater invisibility. In short arcane trickster is better for the higher level spells, whereas use magic device is plenty for the low level spells. If you do get arcane trickster, wizard is usually better because quicken lets you get twice the sneak attack and because int is usually better for your skills than cha.

If all you want is invisibility, then pick up a wand of invisibility for 4500 gp. Or a 25 charge wand for 2250 gp if you can find one. To avoid mishaps you should have a use magic device modifier of at least +10. You can get that by level 6 with a 12 charisma, so it isn't too hard. Then what you do is make a DC 20 use magic device check. If you fail keep trying again and again until you either succeed or roll a 1; it won't burn a charge until you succeed. If you roll a 1 you can't use the wand for 24 hours. So some kind of backup invisibility like a couple scrolls or a potion would be nice.

[HurinTheCursed]

Greater invisibility and multiple rays spells should give give a good output in damage. If you avoid damage spells, the sneak attack won't be used so it defeats a part of the fun in the character.

You'll be less powerfull than a full caster, but well built, this versatility is really fun in RP.

[Lazers etcetera]

If 3.5

Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5

7d6 Sneak Attack (1d6 Rogue, 4d6 Unseen Seer, 2d6 Arcane Trickster)

Near Full Sorcerer Spellcasting 19/20. Use Practiced Spellcaster and you cast your spells with equal caster to your hit dice and you cast divination spells at +3 caster .

Ramza is wise.

You get to be a sneaky little toerag with 9th level spells at the end, appeasing the optimisers. More importantly, it is fun and playable at all levels, and extremely good fun. If you like rogues and sorcerers - who doesn't? - this is the way to be. There is a clue in the the class name Unseen Seer.

They will never see you coming. Plus, aside from the sorcerer levels, loads of skill points but you will be unlikely to dump int anyway.

It is a good build, it has flavour and power and it is, most vitally, cool.

With your skill points and high cha you can also be the party face, when you want to be seen...

[bigstipidfighte]

Have you taken a look at Beguiler from PHB2? It's a spontaneous arcane caster focusing on illusion and enchantment, get 9th level spells, and has 6+int mod skills with all the rougish skills on the class list. Definitely a favorite of mine.

[Leon]

Yes it is.

Eventually however you'll want to Focus to one class or the other depending on what exactly it is you want from the respective classes.

[nedz]

Ramza's advice is pretty good.

Sorcerer 1 is very powerful for its level, Sorcerer 2 and 3 not so much but things improve a lot after that. The thing with Sorcerers though is that you have to pick spells you are going to be casting a lot, or possibly spells which you simply must have.

There are other options.
Rogue 1/Bard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 is also amusing though there is an argument for taking Rogue 2 — namely Evasion. This latter argument also holds for Ramza's build. By taking Rogue 2 you are less powerful later, but you have to survive to get to that point for this to be relevant.

A Rogue with Warlock dips is also interesting, but there are no easy to use hybrid PrCs out there.

SpellThief/Wizard is also an option but it is weaker.

And then, as bigstipidfighte suggested, there is Beguiler. This one is excellent, if Beguiler has the spells you want.

[Venusaur]

Spellwarp Sniper is a decent class for a rogue/sorc as well.

[Flickerdart]

Magelord is another class that grants Sneak Attack and spells at the same time, but it takes a lot more investment to get into and is focused more on casting than roguery.

If all you want is a magic rogue, consider the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b).

[Hyde]

I hadn't realized Sorcs didn't get any gas in the tank until level 4.

That's kind of silly.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I hadn't realized Sorcs didn't get any gas in the tank until level 4.

That's kind of silly.

The main issue is they only have first level spells until then. Things like grease are great for setting up sneak attack, but that's all you have. Coupled with the few spells known, it's a pain. Wizards, meanwhile have approximately the same about of spells per day (via specialist) and gain higher level spells sooner. They also favor INT over CHA, which means more rogue-y skills.

[Waspinator]

If you're going to do a one level dip, consider a Magic Domain Cleric. You can use all cleric and wizard wands.

[Urpriest]

makes sense. So would this be multiclassing or a hybrid? I'm not completely clear on the difference.

Invisibility spells are a thing from third edition D&D, while hybrids are from fourth edition. I would recommend asking your DM which edition you're using, and reading the rules for the classes you're interested in in that particular edition.