Why is Constitution rated so highly?

[Lazers etcetera]

Look at handbooks, look at builds. Nobody ever advises dumping Con.

Unless you are a PF Orc witch, Con is only good for Fort, Concentration and HP.

Not being hit is better than HP, it's not vital. Fort can be boosted in many ways. Concentration is only useful for spellcasters who should not be getting hit anyway.

My characters generally have a Con of 10 (even dwarves), I have seldom found any more needed. I accept one can't dump it entirely.

Sell Con to me, Giants.

[danzibr]

Not being hit is better than HP
Absolutely agreed, but I've never played a campaign where I never get hit. In case you do get hit that high hp is nice.

[Theoboldi]

One thing to be noted is that just about any character can benefit from a high constitution. While a barbarian can safely dumb intelligence and a wizard strength, both of them can only benefit from getting more HP.
Also, as danzibr said no character will ever be able to avoid getting hit forever, except perhaps if you do some astral-projection shenanigans.
Constitution isn't the most important stat for everyone (though it's still one of the best, since it is pretty much the only way to raise your HP consitently), it's just the stat which every class finds to be useful.

[Berenger]

It helps you to NOT DIE.

Unless the GM does pull punches, everybody can get hit by an arrow, a dagger in the back or something else. Against 1 in 20 attack rolls, armor and armor class does nothing at all to protect you.

[Vaz]

Con Saves; primarily save or die, protection from Con-lowering (Poisons) attacks, (Con 0 and you die).

Concentration checks; oh, you're a gish engaged in combat, here, make a Con based skill check to pass the test.

Health; oh, you just got hit by an attack dealing 11 damage (18 Str Half Orc with Greatsword, say). If you'd have 1 more HP, you'd have not dropped into negatives. Good show.

Sure, not getting hit helps; general non-situational AC is highly rated; Natural Armour Bonuses, say, as opposed to dodge; which is why Monks are nicely "liked"; thanks to their Wis (Cha or Int with Feat/Class combinations) to AC and Dex to AC; meaning that they typically have around +6 AC despite being unarmoured, and it's why the class is dipped so frequently (that, and it's front loaded access to bonus Feats. However, unarmoured classes despite their reasonable high AC still get hit on occasion. How do you stay alive? By getting health. Remember that it gets added on to each level, so a Con 14 guy does not just have +2 HP at First Level, but +4 at second level. He advances Con at 4 and 8, and suddenly, instead of having +16 HP, he has +24.

Other abilities have their DC's are keyed off Constitution; say a natural Poison, or a Half-Dragon Breath attack. You actually want your attack to go off, don't you?

[Karnith]

Absolutely agreed, but I've never played a campaign where I never get hit. In case you do get hit that high hp is nice.
And in fact, because of the way attack bonuses scale compared to AC bonuses, it is inordinately expensive to pump AC to the point of not getting hit.

Additionally, most PC classes have pretty small HD, so having a high Constitution is pretty necessary not to die in one hit (consider that a wizard with a Constitution of 10 will, on average, not have 10 hp until level 4; rogues with a Con of 10 will only get more than 10 hp on average at level 3). Remember also that 1 attack in 20 is going to hit you, regardless of your AC, and that you will often face monsters (at appropriate CRs) with attack bonuses far higher than your AC can reasonably expected to be. So which is preferable? Getting hit less often, or being able to survive if you get hit? Most people agree that it's the latter, and that's why Constitution get prioritized so highly.

[Edenbeast]

1 A crappy fortitude save can have dramatic consequences...
2 When your hit points reach a negative total equal to your constitution score, you die...
3 If your GM use the massive damage optional rule, having a higher total hit points is nice. And again, a successful fortitude save is required to avoid instant death.

[Lazers etcetera]

The 1 in 20 is 5%. It's a risk.

As Karnith says, most PCs have small HD so why bother boosting a weak feature? You only need enough HP to take one hit in a battle.

A level 20 wizard with Con 14, built by the sages, will have 3/4 level HP - 60, plus 40 Con bonus, 100, plus maybe false life stuff. A CR beast that hits will take over 100 HP in damage anyway, so why bother? Stick with the crappy 60 HP and use those 4 stat points on Wis for observation or Dex for AC and ranged touch spells.

Edit: forgot about poison and breath weapons. But they fall into the same category as the Orc witch, Con as a primary stat. My question is why people rate it as a secondary or tertiary stat.

[Talderas]

Dragon Fire Adepts base the DC of their breath attack on constitution.
The Diamond Mind school out of ToB has numerous maneuvers which utilize concentration.
No matter how much you prepare you will be hit by something and that's where hit points come into play.
Save or die spells are clustered in Fort and Will saves.
Str/Dex/Con damage have saves that are usually fortitude. So lowering your fort save makes you more susceptible to con damage which makes you even more susceptible.
Constitution is the only stat that when reduced to 0 kills the character.

An Elf wizard with the Quick trait and 6 constitution would have at level 20 a hit point value between 1 and 20 with it probably being about 5-6 hit points.

The elf wizard you listed would have 40 hp from constitution and 51 hp from class levels. He would average 2.5 hit points per hit die, not 3. That wizard has 91 hit points and he would cast a polar ray that has an average damage of 70.

[mcv]

Dumping Con would mean Con 7. In PF, that means you die that much sooner. -2 from your modifier and another -3 from low Con means you can take 5 points of damage less before dying than someone with Con 10, and 8 points less than someone with Con 12.

A d8 class would be able to take a total of 8 - 2 + 7 = 13 points of damage before being dead, instead of 8 + 10 = 18 points of damage with Con 10, or 8 + 1 + 12 = 21 points of damage with Con 12.

Those are differences that matter quite a bit.

Con should never be your highest stat, but it shouldn't be your lowest either.

[Amnestic]

An Elf wizard with the Quick trait and 6 constitution would have at level 20 a hit point value between 1 and 20 with it probably being about 5-6 hit points.

You always gain at least 1hp at level up. 20 hit points is the absolute minimum that you can have at level 20.


Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina. A
Constitution bonus increases a character’s hit points, so the ability is
important for all classes.
You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:

Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result
below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each
time he or she advances in level).

PHB, pg. 9

[Worira]

You always gain at least 1hp at level up. 20 hit points is the absolute minimum that you can have at level 20.



PHB, pg. 9

Quick explicitly allows a result of 0 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick)

[Amnestic]

Quick explicitly allows a result of 0 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick)

That's stupid >:(

[Talderas]

That's stupid >:(

Yes, but hilarious. Combine that with frail, I think it is, and you can have a level 20 d4 class with 6 con that has 0 or 1 hit point at level 20. It depends on how you read Frail. Quick explicitly states you lose a HP at 1st level while Frail doesn't contain the text.

[navar100]

No matter what your AC is, no matter what your percent chance to be missed is, no matter what your saving throws, you will get hit and take damage. Certainly you can mitigate how often, but you will be hit. Your hit points matter.

However, for a particular individual character you can weigh your personal preference. People do play elves despite the -2 CO after all. 14 CON is sometimes called the adventurer's tax. +2 hit points per level is deemed the minimal for survival. Some people will accept a 13 CON to become 14 at level 4 which will happen soon enough. HP are so low at low levels not having those few extra points doesn't matter. 12 CON and less characters are spellcasters. They purposely try to stay out of harm's way and have spells to help them do that. Warriors need the 14 CON and preferably higher. Some warrior players value CON over DEX because they know they will get hit regardless of their DEX anyway. Valuing DEX over CON is usually because their combat style needs DEX, not for AC. It comes with the job of being a warrior to lose hit points. That's why they have the bigger HD. Evey extra hit point matters a great deal.

[Lazers etcetera]

I wasn't suggesting dumping Con, just not raising it above 10.

However, TO exercise - can you make a level 20 Elf wizard with 1HP who is still playable?

(Short answer, yes, easily)

[Telonius]

Constitution is the primary stat of the three Incarnum classes. You need at least an 11 to shape any soulmelds.

[Xyphileous Grey]

I primarily run human druids and my DM allows the heroic stat rolling system so i generally have high stats, the main two i use are wis and con. When i calculate AC i like to use heavier and cheaper armors like hide or an armored coat (We add 10 gold to the cost and make the plates ceramic) with the piecemeal armor rule i will also choose lamellar legs to get a +5 armor AC with +3 max dex, and with +2 dex and a hvy wooden shield i end up with 17-20 AC. And with a favored class of druid and a 20 con (Using the dual talent racial trait) Have 14 HP at level one as a divine caster. So i end up with a Damage output of 1d8, an AC of 20, and 14 HP at level one. (Sorry to sound like a mega min-maxer, when i went through my power gamer phase i focused on this class.)

[Karnith]

The 1 in 20 is 5%. It's a risk.So, you are okay accepting that if you get attacked 20 times over the course of a campaign, you're almost certainly going to die? Because I would not be okay with those odds.

Moreover, it is trivially easy to boost attack bonuses to well beyond reasonable AC values (a first-level orc barbarian is easily capable of having a to-hit bonus of +13 or so, for example; true strike is a spell that people use a lot), and/or to debuff AC (grease denies you your Dex bonus to AC with no save unless you have 5 ranks in balance, for example).

And, finally, there are many, many, many ways to deal HP damage without an attack roll.

As Karnith says, most PCs have small HD so why bother boosting a weak feature? You only need enough HP to take one hit in a battle.Unless you get hit twice, of course. Which is not unlikely. Moreover, if you don't boost Con/HP, you won't have enough HP to even take a single hit in battle.

Saying "I have a weakness, therefore I am not going to bother trying to compensate for it" is really not the best way to build a character, especially when that weakness is dying instantly if you take damage.
A level 20 wizard with Con 14, built by the sages, will have 3/4 level HP - 60, plus 40 Con bonus, 100, plus maybe false life stuff. A CR beast that hits will take over 100 HP in damage anyway, so why bother? Stick with the crappy 60 HP and use those 4 stat points on Wis for observation or Dex for AC and ranged touch spells.By level 20, he can afford a Con-boosting item (+6 is only 36,000), and have a Con score of 20 - or, on average, 151 hp. Even if he only had a Con of 16 and no items (which is pretty standard), he would still have 111 hp on average.

I wasn't suggesting dumping Con, just not raising it above 10.

However, TO exercise - can you make a level 20 Elf wizard with 1HP who is still playable?

(Short answer, yes, easily)
And do you know why that is? Because magic is broken. You don't get to do those kinds of things in normal games. Additionally, wizards don't need any physical stats because they can get them for free through Polymorph etc. and it's not hard to be effectively un-hittable with spells. They get to ignore their own AC, because magic circumvents the need for it. But it's extremely rare to play a game in which those kinds of things are allowed, in games where they are allowed enemies will use counters, and in actual games you are going to take damage.

Moreover, that only works if you're a spellcaster. Try playing a level 20 mundane with 10 Con and see how that works out for you.

[Gotterdammerung]

Fail a fort and you lose.

Run out of HP and you lose

That is the main draw of constitution. As others have stated it is universally beneficial. On most builds, there is always a better dump stat than con. Also, If you can ever get a concentric character build you will quickly notice how strong of a stat it is.

For instance, "Lost tradition" feat from bastard and bloodlines on any caster with steadfast determination.

[Xyphileous Grey]

However, TO exercise - can you make a level 20 Elf wizard with 1HP who is still playable?

But if you try to start a character like that you will be carried more than a 1st ed. monk.

[Shaynythyryas]

Con is not a defensive stat but a surviving stat. Any character needs to think about both, and in general, defense is way much easier to buy or get by class features than survival.

What a DM can inflict to your PC, no matter high or prepared your defense, is only limited by his imagination.

1 of 20 attacks, Save or sucks spells, damage no matter why spells (the first popping to my mind being Magic Missile, only stopped by MR - which can be hard and expensive to get), poisons, falling, or, more simply : bypassing your well-prepared defenses.
The thing is, in D&D, defenses are mostly everything or nothing : either the opponent totally misses you and more HP are useless, either he fully hits you and sees the road open to deal a ****-ton of damage - only countered by DR, which is, frankly, really hard and/or expensive to get.

[Amnestic]

However, TO exercise - can you make a level 20 Elf wizard with 1HP who is still playable?

(Short answer, yes, easily)

Ah, but does this TO Wizard survive due to his AC? Or his myriad of spells which layer defense upon defense which have nothing to do with AC?

The counter question I would pose to you is "What do you consider more important than Con to the extent that you won't even scrounge to put a 12 in it?"

[Person_Man]

Math.

D&D is a game of derived statistics. Attributes are only useful insofar that they modify other things. Lots of things in the game can efficiently and effectively improve your to-hit, damage, AC, Initiative, Saving Throws, and Skill bonuses.

Very few things can efficiently and effectively the Save DC for spells or your hit point total. So most full casters make their highest attribute their primary casting attribute, and their second highest attribute Con. And most non-casters should make Con their highest attribute or their second highest attribute.

[Lazers etcetera]

Ah, but does this TO Wizard survive due to his AC? Or his myriad of spells which layer defense upon defense which have nothing to do with AC?

The counter question I would pose to you is "What do you consider more important than Con to the extent that you won't even scrounge to put a 12 in it?"

In the TO wizard we can assume he doesn't care about AC either, just Initiate of Sevenfold Veil, greater Mirror Image etc.

I put the points into Dex, Wis, or more usually, Cha.

[Karnith]

In the TO wizard we can assume he doesn't care about AC either, just Initiate of Sevenfold Veil, greater Mirror Image etc.Then why would he prioritize Dex over Con? (Let's pretend Shapechange etc. is off the table and he actually needs to use his own stats, because otherwise this argument is pointless)

I put the points into Dex, Wis, or more usually, Cha.What on Earth does Charisma provide a non-Cha-based character, and why would you prioritize it over Constitution? It does absolutely nothing for most characters.

[Talderas]

Then why would he prioritize Dex over Con? (Let's pretend Shapechange etc. is off the table and he actually needs to use his own stats, because otherwise this argument is pointless)
What on Earth does Charisma provide a non-Cha-based character, and why would you prioritize it over Constitution? It does absolutely nothing for most characters.

Dex only for ranged touch attacked but touch ac is notorious for being much harder/expensive to raise, on average, than flat-footed ac. Consequently, touch ACs are usually fairly low and easy to hit so you don't need dexterity or even strength for a standard touch attack.

[Addi]

2 When your hit points reach a negative total equal to your constitution score, you die...

I think this one is a house rule.
(It was added to pathfinder though)

[Keneth]

Unless you are a PF Orc witch, Con is only good for Fort, Concentration and HP.

Except those are three of the most important things, even in Pathfinder where Concentration is no longer Con-based.

[ahenobarbi]

The 1 in 20 is 5%. It's a risk.

As Karnith says, most PCs have small HD so why bother boosting a weak feature? You only need enough HP to take one hit in a battle.

Because buying +4 item costs very little (for 20th level character) as does getting a bit of inherent bonus. And together they give you enough HP to survive one hit.

[sperreau]

As a party-member, it helps to assure you're less of a burden as well. If your party needs to come save you every time you take a single hit, then they can't focus on the task at hand: Killing the enemies and ending the encounter. Likewise, if you can't take a hit without immediately needing to flee, your own contribution to the fight is greatly diminished.

Finally, I know that I've played with plenty of DMs who, if faced with a choice between hitting the character with 10 Con and hitting the character with 16-18 Con, they'll usually choose the latter. Partly, it's been nice DMing, but also, it avoids constant PC death, and the toll that puts on the party (it's not fun for the other players when they have to throw constant resources at reviving PCs, or just needing to carry PCs).

[Karnith]

Finally, I know that I've played with plenty of DMs who, if faced with a choice between hitting the character with 10 Con and hitting the character with 16-18 Con, they'll usually choose the latter. Partly, it's been nice DMing, but also, it avoids constant PC death, and the toll that puts on the party (it's not fun for the other players when they have to throw constant resources at reviving PCs, or just needing to carry PCs).
So, "if the DM coddles characters who have glaring weaknesses, their weaknesses aren't so bad?" Sounds about right.

[Eldariel]

HP is the only defense in many cases (Power Words, Maw of Chaos, Abyssal Giants' rocks, Acid Fog, etc.) and a supplemental defense to Reflex-saves (Dragon breaths, breath weapons in general, many an evocation spell, etc.). It's also safeguard against the eventual attacks that hit and in general, one of the most applicable defenses in the game.

You really don't want to skimp on HP. That's the #1 reason why Con is so important; Hit Dice don't actually give that much HP; indeed, the difference between a level 20 Fighter and Wizard is only like 60 HP and they're both way over 200 if they simply get the 14 Con and +6 item and +4 inherent.


Fort-saves are nice and also very important, but principally, the reason Con is incredibly important is:
- It gives you defense vs. physical attacks of all kind.
- It gives you (often two layers of) defense against attacks targeting Fort-save.
- It gives you defense against most attacks targeting Reflex-save.
- It provides the only defense in the game against certain forms of attack.
- It provides you with the one base defense that is not subject to failed die rolls (damage immunity, reflexive teleportation and such are not base defenses since they're not available without class level investment).
- It gives you base values for the most crucial Caster skill: Concentration.

As a rule, Constitution is the most important stat second only to the class's focal stat unless you can negate it (e.g. make yourself immune to everything, damage immune, real you untargetable by hostile effects, type that gives you a nonability Con or such).

[Slipperychicken]

Because your AC can't and won't prevent all damage. You must be able to absorb damage to survive, especially criticals.

Because plenty of damage sources bypass armor class altogether, or allow very little chance to resist.

Because failed Fort saves are bad news. Usually much worse than Reflex saves.


Because almost every character I've played with a Con below 14 has either died or come close enough that they were ultimately saved by DM fiat.

[dascarletm]

I dumped con on a wizard once (an 8). At level 4 I had 9 HP, and at 8 I had like 16. It was probably the scariest thing ever.

I ended up spending half or more of my slots on defensive spells. If it looks like the baddies will be getting out of my web soon and want to shoot me with arrows, time to hit Mount and Invisibility and get out! Later party will cast a fare-well fireball

[Fouredged Sword]

Fort is commonly all that stands between you and death by poison. When each save gets harder and harder due to con damage you die fairly quick. Disease is much the same way.

Fort is save or lose. Will is save or loose. If the party wizard fails ether the group goes down most of the time. They have a good will save though, not a good fort.

[Animastryfe]

So, you are okay accepting that if you get attacked 20 times over the course of a campaign, you're almost certainly going to die? Because I would not be okay with those odds.



The probability of rolling at least one 1 on 20d20 is about 64%. The number of hits needed to have a 90% chance of rolling a 1 on nd20 is n=45, rounding up to the nearest whole number. n=59 for a 95% chance of rolling a 1.

Formula used: (1-(19/20)^n)*100=percent chance of rolling 1 on nd20.

[SamBurke]

Look at handbooks, look at builds. Nobody ever advises dumping Con.

Unless you are a PF Orc witch, Con is only good for Fort, Concentration and HP.

Not being hit is better than HP, it's not vital. Fort can be boosted in many ways. Concentration is only useful for spellcasters who should not be getting hit anyway.

My characters generally have a Con of 10 (even dwarves), I have seldom found any more needed. I accept one can't dump it entirely.

Sell Con to me, Giants.

DMs will ensure that you DO get hit. At least, every DM I've ever played with customized his challenges in order to make sure there was danger. Without that sense of, "I could get hurt, or killed", the game isn't fun. But what IS fun is surviving a bunch of hits, and going, YEAAAAAAAH. I'm just that TOUGH.

Thus, Consititution.

[Xerxus]

Ok, so you can pump your AC and miss chance up in tha stratosphere.

You can also pump your Con to get a lot of hit points.

Why not both?

If I had to choose I'd choose Con. It's better to subject yourself to a risk with great likelihood but low impact than a risk with low likelihood but massive impact. Even if you take a lower percent of your total hit points as damage on average, those few times that you do take damage it is more likely to be fatal, assuming you're going down to as little as 10 Con with a d4 hit dice.

Of course you should have a miss chance and some AC, but if you dump Con you will be sorry (Unless you're really really lucky).

[Krobar]

DMs will ensure that you DO get hit. At least, every DM I've ever played with customized his challenges in order to make sure there was danger. Without that sense of, "I could get hurt, or killed", the game isn't fun. But what IS fun is surviving a bunch of hits, and going, YEAAAAAAAH. I'm just that TOUGH.

Thus, Consititution.

This.

If it's my game, and you're a melee type, you're going to get hit. And at higher levels, you're going to get hit hard. If you're a caster, you're going to need to make concentration checks.

Either way you're going to need a decent CON score.

[ahenobarbi]

The probability of rolling at least one 1 on 20d20 is about 64%. The number of hits needed to have a 90% chance of rolling a 1 on nd20 is n=45, rounding up to the nearest whole number. n=59 for a 95% chance of rolling a 1.

Formula used: (1-(19/20)^n)*100=percent chance of rolling 1 on nd20.

Which gives answer to question "if I roll n times during campaign and die on , what is probability of dying during campaign?". Most likely you don't know number of rolls you'll make during campaign, so you will be more interested in answering question "how many rolls I can expect to do before rolling 1 and dying". Which s 20.

[danzibr]

Constitution is the primary stat of the three Incarnum classes. You need at least an 11 to shape any soulmelds.
Yeah I was going to mention this. Of course not every class needs Con, some can TOTALLY dump it (thinking Necropolitan here), then for one of my favorite classes, Totemist, you want it as high as possible, more or less.

[Fouredged Sword]

With HP you are asking how many actions are between me and death. You can have a fairly firm minimum number of actions that you know you can buffer before you die. You know roughly the amount of damage a foe can throw out at a given CR.

Healing allows this to be refilled between combats, allowing an expected minimum survival time per combat. If you can end combat before the other side can direct the enough damage your way you can ensure survival through any combat.

If you really on miss chance/high AC you are risking death. There are ways to deal HP damage regardless of saves, and even then you cannot ensure that the first attack in a combat gets lucky, preventing you from developing a strategy to survive.

Combat doesn't last very long. You don't need to be able to tank 5-6 big hits all at once. You need to be able to survive 1-2 smaller hits per round with 1 big hit every other round or so. It is OK to loose HP, it comes back. It is not OK to drop into negatives.

[JusticeZero]

Once upon a time, I was living 60 miles away from my gaming group for a few months for work. So I would, once a week, pack up my stuff and drive for an hour to get to the GM's house in another town.
We were going on an adventure; I was the wizard. We briefly RPed meeting up and getting our adventure and such. Then we went down to the dungeon. We came to the front door. "I think this might be trapped", said I, and ducked behind cover. The GM nodded and noted it down. The Barbarian said "Bah! You're being a coward for nothing, and we have no rogue," as he threw the door open. "A fireball trap goes off," said the GM, and rolled a bunch of dice. "Save for half. O wizard, you have a bonus of 4."
I rolled, and the die came up a 2. "Does a seven pass?" "No." "Take 27 points of damage."
I looked down; my max HP was 14. We were nowhere near any other people, we had no resources to raise the dead, everyone else grumbled and passed healing spells between themself. I quietly walked out and started the hour long drive home.

My next wizard had a con of 16.

[Animastryfe]

Which gives answer to question "if I roll n times during campaign and die on , what is probability of dying during campaign?". Most likely you don't know number of rolls you'll make during campaign, so you will be more interested in answering question "how many rolls I can expect to do before rolling 1 and dying". Which s 20.

I do not see how my post does not answer the second question, which I agree is the more important one. I thought that Karnith's post was talking about your second question, with the assumption that one hit equals death, and he put down twenty rolls as the answer. However, I thought that he may have had an incorrect view of the mathematics of the situation, and so I calculated the chance of rolling at least one 1 with 20d20.

The important point in the second question is what probability of rolling 1 does "expect" correspond to? Perhaps you think that a 64% chance of rolling 1, and thus dying, is probable enough, in which case the answer to your question is 20. But perhaps you think that "expect" means a minimum of 90% of rolling a 1, which means that your character will on average need to be hit 45 times in order to "expect" to roll a 1.

[Talderas]

Once upon a time, I was living 60 miles away from my gaming group for a few months for work. So I would, once a week, pack up my stuff and drive for an hour to get to the GM's house in another town.
We were going on an adventure; I was the wizard. We briefly RPed meeting up and getting our adventure and such. Then we went down to the dungeon. We came to the front door. "I think this might be trapped", said I, and ducked behind cover. The GM nodded and noted it down. The Barbarian said "Bah! You're being a coward for nothing, and we have no rogue," as he threw the door open. "A fireball trap goes off," said the GM, and rolled a bunch of dice. "Save for half. O wizard, you have a bonus of 4."
I rolled, and the die came up a 2. "Does a seven pass?" "No." "Take 27 points of damage."
I looked down; my max HP was 14. We were nowhere near any other people, we had no resources to raise the dead, everyone else grumbled and passed healing spells between themself. I quietly walked out and started the hour long drive home.

My next wizard had a con of 16.

That story is painful.

[Krobar]

Once upon a time, I was living 60 miles away from my gaming group for a few months for work. So I would, once a week, pack up my stuff and drive for an hour to get to the GM's house in another town.
We were going on an adventure; I was the wizard. We briefly RPed meeting up and getting our adventure and such. Then we went down to the dungeon. We came to the front door. "I think this might be trapped", said I, and ducked behind cover. The GM nodded and noted it down. The Barbarian said "Bah! You're being a coward for nothing, and we have no rogue," as he threw the door open. "A fireball trap goes off," said the GM, and rolled a bunch of dice. "Save for half. O wizard, you have a bonus of 4."
I rolled, and the die came up a 2. "Does a seven pass?" "No." "Take 27 points of damage."
I looked down; my max HP was 14. We were nowhere near any other people, we had no resources to raise the dead, everyone else grumbled and passed healing spells between themself. I quietly walked out and started the hour long drive home.

My next wizard had a con of 16.

I would have gotten out my backup character. When I'm a player, I *always* have a backup character. When I'm the DM, I recommend it to my players. Situations like you found yourself in are no fun.

[Gavinfoxx]

With good con, you don't need a backup character!

[Yael]

A friend of mine did a build which focuses on AC.
Its final AC ends in 128, but he didn't dumped Con, though.
You need health, you need fort.

AND

If you get your Con drained or reduced to 0, well.. YOU DIE!!!!

[Lazers etcetera]

Righto then.

Plenty of clever people here with plenty of clever arguments. I have taken note.

By Sunday I must have a character sheet written for a PVP and PBP game, and if anyone recognizes this build please stop reading. Or don't, I don't care.

Don't tell me to rebuild, the classes and race and LA are set in stone, I have submitted it to the DM. Anyway, flavour more than wank power.

15 gestalt.
Human celestial creature (+2), half dragon (+2, using the level rules rather than the flat +3), factotum 11// Abjurer wiz 3, Master Specialist 6, Initiate of sevenfold veil 6

Going to dump con to 10 and never improve it. It's an arena game and if I get hit, I will probably die.

Tell me why I should boost Con for this guy.

[Gavinfoxx]

Because of attacks that deal hit point damage that aren't charges?

[Theoboldi]

What are your other stats? What point buy do you use? Do you use any charisma related skills? Which other stats could you dump? Could you take some points out of either wisdom or strength? In any case, I ditto Gavinfoxx's statement. Anything you don't need can go into increasing your hp, which the only thing left when your magical defenses fail.

[Krobar]

Righto then.

Plenty of clever people here with plenty of clever arguments. I have taken note.

By Sunday I must have a character sheet written for a PVP and PBP game, and if anyone recognizes this build please stop reading. Or don't, I don't care.

Don't tell me to rebuild, the classes and race and LA are set in stone, I have submitted it to the DM. Anyway, flavour more than wank power.

15 gestalt.
Human celestial creature (+2), half dragon (+2, using the level rules rather than the flat +3), factotum 11// Abjurer wiz 3, Master Specialist 6, Initiate of sevenfold veil 6

Going to dump con to 10 and never improve it. It's an arena game and if I get hit, I will probably die.

Tell me why I should boost Con for this guy.

Because "if I get hit, I will probably die."

[Lazers etcetera]

32 point. I hate dumping so str 10, con 10, dex 10, wis 10. Max int and cha stays high, and I know it is not mechanically perfect but...

The guy is an LG superhero. It will give no battle benefits whatsoever.

I know that cha is always dumped on this forum, but you are all wrong. Cha is the most important attribute in real life, my superhero character will reflect that.

EDIT: Krobar - if I get hit I will probably die is a cold fact no matter how many hit points I have. In this PvP game I have not seen everyone's stuff, but I know that at least one player has 63 Strength. If that f*cker hits me it doesn't matter how many HP I have.

[Eldariel]

Righto then.

Plenty of clever people here with plenty of clever arguments. I have taken note.

By Sunday I must have a character sheet written for a PVP and PBP game, and if anyone recognizes this build please stop reading. Or don't, I don't care.

Don't tell me to rebuild, the classes and race and LA are set in stone, I have submitted it to the DM. Anyway, flavour more than wank power.

15 gestalt.
Human celestial creature (+2), half dragon (+2, using the level rules rather than the flat +3), factotum 11// Abjurer wiz 3, Master Specialist 6, Initiate of sevenfold veil 6

Going to dump con to 10 and never improve it. It's an arena game and if I get hit, I will probably die.

Tell me why I should boost Con for this guy.

At the very least make sure you don't insta-lose to quickened Power Word: Stun. That's 150hp. Blasting can also be fairly efficient on those levels. Of course, much depends on how many immunities and resistances you squeeze in.

[laeZ1]

In an arena situation, I'd say having a high fort save is more important than a high con.

But based on your last post, it seems like you don't really care what the playground has to say on the matter. Why are you asking?

[Theoboldi]

If he's a superhero, why do you give him a constitution score that means he'll be about as durable as wet cardboard? I don't think I've ever seen a hero who couldn't take at least some punches. Even a squishy one shouldn't be in danger of dying from a stray shot. Right now he's more of a charismatic redshirt.

Of course, this is how I see it from a RP standpoint. Mechanically, it's still about being able to take that extra hit if things go awry, and power-word spells.

[Karnith]

The guy is an LG superhero. It will give no battle benefits whatsoever.

I know that cha is always dumped on this forum, but you are all wrong. Cha is the most important attribute in real life, my superhero character will reflect that.
So, you admit that Charisma is a useless stat, and yet refuse to change it. Moreover, even if you're right (and I don't believe that you are), all you'll have proven that in a highly-optimized wizard build that is effectively untouchable, Constitution isn't very important.

Do you see the problem with this argument, and why it isn't very applicable to actual play?

[Lazers etcetera]

In an arena situation, I'd say having a high fort save is more important than a high con.

But based on your last post, it seems like you don't really care what the playground has to say on the matter. Why are you asking?

That is not fair. I do care. You people are experts and are capable of considering arguments. Telling me I am being pigheaded is unkind and unwarranted.

I just don't find HP very important and wanted to be persuaded otherwise.

[Lazers etcetera]

So, you admit that Charisma is a useless stat, and yet refuse to change it. Moreover, even if you're right (and I don't believe that you are), all you'll have proven that in a highly-optimized wizard build that is effectively untouchable, Constitution isn't very important.

Do you see the problem with this argument, and why it isn't very applicable to actual play?

Because the Rp is that he is a high-ranking military person in the celestial army and playing pure numbers with cha of 8 does not make a very inspiring hero.

It is applicable to actual play because he will have so many skill ranks to spend with his int, all the skills in class (factotum) and very few to bother with (hide? Swim? Tumble?) that after knowledge (all the stuff) he may as well put in the remaining points into Diplomacy and Perform (bass guitar).

[laeZ1]

Telling me I am being pigheaded is unkind and unwarranted. I'm sorry I came off that way. I never mean to be unkind.


I just don't find HP very important and wanted to be persuaded otherwise. There's nothing I can say that the others haven't already said better.

[Amnestic]

32 point. I hate dumping so str 10, con 10, dex 10, wis 10. Max int and cha stays high, and I know it is not mechanically perfect but...


Half Dragon:
"Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2."

Even if you dump Strength, you're still going to end up at 16 before level/item adjustments. 8 Str, 12 Con is the PB equivalent of 10 Str, 10 Con. I'm still failing to see why you wouldn't want an extra 1 HP/HD, +1 Fort and +1 on Concentration checks in exchange for slightly less damage on weapon attacks (which as a 15th level Wizard you probably won't be making all that much to begin with).

[Karnith]

Because the Rp is that he is a high-ranking military person in the celestial army and playing pure numbers with cha of 8 does not make a very inspiring hero."I have a concept with this character that I want to play, regardless of its mechanical effectiveness" is different than "Charisma is a better investment for characters than constitution." You wish to see arguments against the latter, but are defending your choices based on the former.

It is applicable to actual play because he will have so many skill ranks to spend with his int, all the skills in class (factotum) and very few to bother with (hide? Swim? Tumble?) that after knowledge (all the stuff) he may as well put in the remaining points into Diplomacy and Perform (bass guitar).
Again, "This particular character doesn't need Con because he gets class features that I will use to make him effectively untouchable" and "Con is dumpable" are extremely different statements, and the former does absolutely nothing to argue for the latter.

And considering that you are pumping Charisma to focus on your character's skills that, by your own admission, aren't worth bothering with, I'd say that you really aren't making a good argument for the mechanical effectiveness of your choices (particular in a PvP game, where diplomacy shenanigans have a greatly reduced effect).

[Lazers etcetera]

Half Dragon:
"Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2."

Even if you dump Strength, you're still going to end up at 16 before level/item adjustments. 8 Str, 12 Con is the PB equivalent of 10 Str, 10 Con. I'm still failing to see why you wouldn't want an extra 1 HP/HD, +1 Fort and +1 on Concentration checks in exchange for slightly less damage on weapon attacks (which as a 15th level Wizard you probably won't be making all that much to begin with).

I have no intention of banishing Con like it is a disease, I do not hate the stat like it is healthcare to a conservative, just that the +2 racial bonus means I can dump it to 8 and bring it up to the sober 10 at the end of the build.

You are right about the half dragon thing though. No idea how to make it sensible. Might have to go for the blandest reasoning possible. Celestial Gold Dragon. Oh dear, he hasn't taken any unarmed fighting feats.

[ahenobarbi]

The important point in the second question is what probability of rolling 1 does "expect" correspond to? Perhaps you think that a 64% chance of rolling 1, and thus dying, is probable enough, in which case the answer to your question is 20. But perhaps you think that "expect" means a minimum of 90% of rolling a 1, which means that your character will on average need to be hit 45 times in order to "expect" to roll a 1.

I meant expected value as defined in probability theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value).

[Lazers etcetera]

"I have a concept with this character that I want to play, regardless of its mechanical effectiveness" is different than "Charisma is a better investment for characters than constitution." You wish to see arguments against the latter, but are arguing on the basis of the former.

Again, "This particular character doesn't need Con because he gets class features that I will use to make him effectively untouchable" and "Con is dumpable" are extremely different statements, and the former does absolutely nothing to argue for the latter.

Karnith, thank you for biring your tongue, and suppressing your urges to call me a c*nt, - and use pretty solid shooting against my ideas.

As it happens, 'Charisma is [indeed] a better investment for characters than constitution' by my reading and feeling. YMMV and this is why we play with one another rather than merely submitting number combinations.

[Gavinfoxx]

Charisma provides negligible benefits, +1 or +2 to a few skills, and the benefit is generally exceeded by improving int and taking ranks in those skills.

[tyckspoon]

It's an arena game and if I get hit, I will probably die.

Tell me why I should boost Con for this guy.

In this *very particular* circumstance? As long as you have other defences covering HP-targeting instakills (primarily Power Word spells, as already mentioned by others, although you might also consider the possibility of somebody flashing you with a shield covered in Permanent Symbols) you probably shouldn't. Because you're playing a high level, high power, arena game, which basically just comes down to 'Did I win initiative? If yes, is the other guy immune to whatever I've decided to use as my killing technique? If no, am I immune to his killing technique?" Everything else is probably meaningless- the winner of the match is going to be the first guy to attempt something the other dude isn't completely immune to. So.. if I were to actually tell you that your stat arrangement was wrong, I'd be saying you need more *Dex*. Because winning initiative is going to have a huge impact on your ability to win (not just in going first, but because you need to make sure you're not flatfooted in order to be able to use your Veils) and without significant cheese/custom items you haven't mentioned yet you don't have access to the Foresight/Celerity combo to cover that issue.

[Talderas]

As it happens, 'Charisma is [indeed] a better investment for characters than constitution' by my reading and feeling. YMMV and this is why we play with one another rather than merely submitting number combinations.

I'm wondering how you justify and articulate that.

The usefulness of an attribute is related to what it affects without a class feature to utilize it.

For strength, it affects skills, weapon damage, attack rolls, and encumbrance.
For dexterity, it affects skills, reflex saves, attack rolls, initiative, and AC.
For constitution, it affects skills, fortitude saves, and hit points.
For intelligences, it affects skills and skill points.
For wisdom, it affects skills and will saves.
For charisma, it affects skills.

That is why charisma is a dump stat. Now, the value of a stat will be raised by class abilities that are keyed off that stat, but for all the other attributes they will still remain the same to each other with respect to value. This makes strength and charisma the least valuable on a strict stat to stat comparison. Both increase greatly in value once you actually need the stat.

I'm not even sure why you're keeping charisma high at the sacrifice of all your other attributes. All of your classes are int based and the frank fact is that swapping your attribute assignment from charisma to dexterity, wisdom, or constitution would all provide a greater benefit than what you currently get out of charisma.

[Fyermind]

There are builds that can ignore all your defenses and kill you easily. Con won't help you there. What Con does help with are opponents who have so heavily optimized going first that they act before you and deal their moderate quantity of damage which could kill you in one round. You don't need to be the toughest character ever, but I'd agree that 10 HP/level is a gold standard for every character who expects to be caught alone or be the primary target.

[Lazers etcetera]

I thank those of you who have considered this, and I accept my attitude was not correct when I started this thread. This is precisely why we have such a forum and why we carefully read the advice others write.

Tyckspoon is right, I need an initiative modifier of +10 before Nerveskitter to make even attempting to attack a worthwhile venture. Will punch up dex to compensate.

Talderas - your logic is difficult to disagree with insofar as numbers are concerned, please expand on my failure in articulation.

The logic is.. None, none, in the end.

This guy might not be the sine qua non in TO but anyone who looks at the stats knows he doesn't need that stuff. I wanted to make an LG wizard superhero, and mechanics say low cha is better but my hope for him as a superhero means I cannot play by the OP way. Something has to give, and that is Con.

I know I am new to this board, and I am no troll, but thank you people for making this a lively debate.

[mregecko]

I'm sorry... You're playing a gestalt arena.

With a 10 con.

And all classes with poor fort saves.

So at 15th level, you will have a +5 fort save (let's just be generous and say +10 with a +5 resist cloak).

How is this not a troll?

Let's ignore the obvious problems of Power Word: X destroying you.

Let's ignore the rest of the Save or Dies/Looses that you'll have a hard time saving against.

Let's ignore the poisons, cloudkills, con drains, etc...

Let's say you're going up against a decently built melee character. Say he (somehow) pounces on you, and gets a full attack sequence off.

Five-ish attacks, you can expect each attack to do in the order of 100 damage.

You should probably be blinking, have blur, and/or mirror image.

Ideally, only one or two of those attacks should hit you.

With a ~65hp, that'll kill you. But if you have actually care about HP, you should have probably around a 20-22 con (14 start +6 item +2 templates). An additional 120 con puts you around 180, with an empowered false life, you're sitting around 210-220. That's enough to withstand one or two hits.

Which will let you live another round.

Now yes, a perfectly optimized wizard will have crafted contingencies, permanent ironguards, and none of this will matter.

But unless you're living in a complete TO world, that's not going to happen, and you're probably going to get hit once or twice.

Don't let it kill you.

PS: I'm still not convinced this isn't a troll.

[Kazyan]

It's not a troll; it's unorthodox play.

[Talderas]

Talderas - your logic is difficult to disagree with insofar as numbers are concerned, please expand on my failure in articulation.

The logic is.. None, none, in the end.

This guy might not be the sine qua non in TO but anyone who looks at the stats knows he doesn't need that stuff. I wanted to make an LG wizard superhero, and mechanics say low cha is better but my hope for him as a superhero means I cannot play by the OP way. Something has to give, and that is Con.

So you agree with my logic regarding the stats. You came here asking for a reason to raise constitution above 10. You have a character with what I assume is charisma of 15 based on what you have stated your str/dex/con/wis values are (without half dragon template, I assume). So the starting values are 10 str, 10 dex, 10 con, 18 int, 10 wis, 15 cha which means your final stats are 18 str, 10 dex, 12 con, 20 int, 10 wis, 17 cha for a factotum that is spellcasting and will probably never utilize melee.

Now you agree with my logic about why everything is better than charisma. I respect the RP aspect of your character but that is not something that plays a part when talking about the value of one stat or another which is how you opened this thread.

Let me point this out. If you dump str on your point build and drop charisma from 15 to 14 there is a huge gain that you will get out of it. You stats would become 16 str, 10 dex, 12 con, 20 int, 10 wis, 16 cha (not even a loss of modifier) and you can in turn increase you dex/con/wis by a collective 4 points. So you could be 16/14/12/20/10/16, 16/10/16/20/10/16, or 16/10/12/20/14/16. All of those stat arrays are more potent than 18/10/12/20/10/17.

[Fouredged Sword]

Really you have to look at what that extra charisma is getting you without skill points invested in charisma skills.

You could just cross class some skill points and end up with better charisma based skills.

Unless you are investing in charisma based skills you are left trying to catch up to the modifier of a 1st level character.

Your attribute modifier caps out at what, +6? That is even with a 1st level character who has those skills.

Better to just say "Well, not gonna be great, but hey magic" and get yourself a magic item of +diplomacy and be fine with your non-negative charisma modifier.

There are no items of +HP. Gold flows like water. HP are worth the gold.

[Karnith]

Don't let it kill you.

PS: I'm still not convinced this isn't a troll.
To be fair, high-level arena-style fights at high op-levels are one of the few places that your HP total really isn't going to matter. Between SoDs, no-save-just-dies, and the sheer amount of damage that characters can deal in one hit/round, your actual HP total isn't going to be relevant very much (Power Word spells and the like being the exceptions). Constitution is still important, because it gives bonuses to your Fortitude save and the concentration skill, but HP isn't really the most important reason. Were he in an actual campaign/game, it would be different, of course, because they play so differently compared to arena-style matches (it's similar to why nova-ing is an excellent strategy in PvPs but a terrible strategy in normal games) but here it's not as huge a deal as it normally would be.

Getting a high Constitution score (or Dex, or Wis) is still way better than focusing on Charisma in an arena fight, though.

[Lazers etcetera]

Let me point this out. If you dump str on your point build and drop charisma from 15 to 14 there is a huge gain that you will get out of it. You stats would become 16 str, 10 dex, 12 con, 20 int, 10 wis, 16 cha (not even a loss of modifier) and you can in turn increase you dex/con/wis by a collective 4 points. So you could be 16/14/12/20/10/16, 16/10/16/20/10/16, or 16/10/12/20/14/16. All of those stat arrays are more potent than 18/10/12/20/10/17.
Talderas, your maths are better than mine. Thank you for your patient work and thank you for using sanity instead of contempt or vitriol.


Kazyan, correct. I am no troll.

Mr. Gecko, sniffing the air and suspecting I am trolling is your call, but it is not the case.

I assume that if anyone hits my boy, he is already dead. I may as well play him with 1 HP for all the good it will do him.

My fellow plauers have spilled some beans - Do you know my enemies? Voidmind Wartroll Boneknight?
Pseudonatural ratkin vampire lord ardent erudite?
Ice Lich who starts with over 100 HD of undead suicide troops?





I don't care if I get hit, it's all over if that happens.

Karnith called it right.

[SowZ]

Here's something. An extra point of Dex will always be a 5% chance to avoid an attack, succeed a save or skill, or make an attack roll. It is always that same 5% no matter what level you are at. A point of Con, however, only gives you a larger and larger benefit as you get higher level.

[Arbane]

There are no items of +HP. Gold flows like water. HP are worth the gold.

Magic item of +con?

[Gavinfoxx]

Amulet of Tears
+Amulet of Health +4
+Brooch of Stability

[Animastryfe]

I meant expected value as defined in probability theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value).

Ah, I see. I think I did not expect you to mean that because I did not think that the original post I quoted meant that. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[navar100]

If you want to play a low CO character, go ahead. Why do you need our permission or approval?

[Lazers etcetera]

SOLD to Talderas. Your numbers are good.

Why the f*ck would I troll you people, unless I'm playing a long game?



My boy is a one-hit wonder, as Karnith pointed out. 15 minute adventuring day?

If his day of excitement lasts over 18 seconds, he is probably dead.

50% of him is about invulnerability, 20% is on dispelling, 20% on action economy and 10% on violence. 0% on AC or HP.


You have all been clever and helpful.

Edit: aside from Navar100.

Good point. Why discussing stuff?

[Bakeru]

I don't care if I get hit, it's all over if that happens.You're still entirely ignoring Power Word: X spells.
Have a look at Power Word: Kill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordKill.htm).
If you don't have spell resistance, that spell is going to kill you at close range in a standard action. Unless you have at least 100 HP.
Power Word: Stun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordStun.htm) is only going to stun you, but that just means you're going to die the next round. And you need more than 150 HP to escape this.

Also... You realise that there are tons of area effect spells that require fortitude saves? It's not "over when you get hit", it's "over when the enemy caster casts his first spell", because, honestly, when you're up against a caster, you preferably target fortitude saves (Or leave no save at all for instant damage), and that's where you left a huge con-shaped hole.

Basically, make that "no more than 6 seconds of excitement". Three rounds could already be to much.

(Note: I never play a char below 14 charisma if I could avoid it. But then, I also always play at least secondary party face.)

[Amnestic]

You're still entirely ignoring Power Word: X spells.
Have a look at Power Word: Kill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordKill.htm).
If you don't have spell resistance, that spell is going to kill you at close range in a standard action. Unless you have at least 100 HP.
Power Word: Stun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordStun.htm) is only going to stun you, but that just means you're going to die the next round. And you need more than 150 HP to escape this.


There's also Power Word: Pain (1d6 per round if you have less than 100HP or less - 1st level spell) and Power Word: Disable (reduces a creature with less than 50hp to 0hp - 5th level spell). No save, just SR.

[Karnith]

There's also Power Word: Pain (1d6 per round if you have less than 100HP or less - 1st level spell) and Power Word: Disable (reduces a creature with less than 50hp to 0hp - 5th level spell). No save, just SR.
It bears mentioning, though, that the Power Word spells are mind-affecting, so Mind Blank shuts them off.

[Kazyan]

The Power Word spells do work...but why would anyone prepare them at this level? Everyone is expected to have high HP, so they're expected to be a waste of a spell slot. :smallamused:

[Scow2]

Here's something. An extra point of Dex will always be a 5% chance to avoid an attack, succeed a save or skill, or make an attack roll. It is always that same 5% no matter what level you are at. A point of Con, however, only gives you a larger and larger benefit as you get higher level.

Actually, it's not. There is no difference between someone who has 12 Dex and 20 Dex against someone with a touch-attack modifier of +24, if there are no other AC boosting qualities.

Also... what can pierce the Initiate of the Seven Veil's defenses?

[nyarlathotep]

The Power Word spells do work...but why would anyone prepare them at this level? Everyone is expected to have high HP, so they're expected to be a waste of a spell slot. :smallamused:

There are also plenty of good summons that have it. Also if you happen to know who you're fighting ahead of time its a trivial investment to prepare it.

[Karnith]

Also... what can pierce the Initiate of the Seven Veil's defenses?
A prepared spellcaster? All of the veils get negated by specific spells, much as Prismatic Wall does. What can do so easily and practically is, of course, another story.

Alternately, going first.

[TuggyNE]

My fellow plauers have spilled some beans - Do you know my enemies? Voidmind Wartroll Boneknight?
Pseudonatural ratkin vampire lord ardent erudite?
Ice Lich who starts with over 100 HD of undead suicide troops?

I am a little puzzled by something. You're in a brutally high-op arena game, right? Why then are you prioritizing potential RP hooks directly at the expense of effectiveness? It seems like it would be better in keeping with the game for you to make a character build that is likely to win, first, and then tweaking and calibrating it to better fit your character vision.

[navar100]

SOLD to Talderas. Your numbers are good.

Why the f*ck would I troll you people, unless I'm playing a long game?



My boy is a one-hit wonder, as Karnith pointed out. 15 minute adventuring day?

If his day of excitement lasts over 18 seconds, he is probably dead.

50% of him is about invulnerability, 20% is on dispelling, 20% on action economy and 10% on violence. 0% on AC or HP.


You have all been clever and helpful.

Edit: aside from Navar100.

Good point. Why discussing stuff?

Glad I could be of service. Another successful mission.

[Mithril Leaf]

This thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8913) right here is why you don't dump Con. All that stands between you and those spells is a nice hit point reserve.

[MukkTB]

Never dump Con. On the other hand it doesn't necessarily need pumping that much. Most guides talking about point buy suggest 12 or 14 con for middle point buy values. For a fighter using PF 15 point buy I might grab 16 Str 14 Con, maybe dumping some of the mental stats for physical ones. 16+ Con builds in PB situations only are encouraged to front line fighters and when there are moderately high point buy values. So while you never dump con you also don't pump it too hard either.

[3WhiteFox3]

This thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8913) right here is why you don't dump Con. All that stands between you and those spells is a nice hit point reserve.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?316006-Constitution-damage-options (Another good thread) for why dumping Con is very bad. A low con means the following.

Low HP - Bad, but not insurmountably so, can suck when you get hit with a power word spell.
Low Fort Save - Extremely worrying, failing fort saves are almost always nasty, and while this can be avoided to a degree thanks to a cloak of resistance, what are you going to do when someone hits you with the classic Arcane Thesis, Quickened, Empowered, Twinned, Maximized Enervation?
Low Con Score - Worrying, As demonstrated in the aforementioned thread, a low Con means being very susceptible to those effects and can mean the difference between life and death. This is made worse by the above point, a lot of Con damage requires Fort saves to avoid, and you won't have a high Fort to protect yourself.

In the end, the value of Con comes down to the fact that no defense is truly impervious to a dedicated opponent. Even the IotSV can be bypassed (Besides, that's relying on the broken power of the IotSV more than anything.) if you're not careful.

[SowZ]

Actually, it's not. There is no difference between someone who has 12 Dex and 20 Dex against someone with a touch-attack modifier of +24, if there are no other AC boosting qualities.

Also... what can pierce the Initiate of the Seven Veil's defenses?

That's true. My point was about how a point of Dex is never going to mean 'more' than a 5% chance of avoidance, no matter the level, not that it could never mean less than a 5% chance. Your point further reinforces mine, really, that you only get more out of your investment in Con as you level.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So, two points that may or may not have been made yet. (I didn't read all the thread. Sue me.)

1: There are a *lot* of things you need to boost to avoid taking damage. Your AC is just one of them (and a losing battle at that) - there are also reflex saves, fortitude saves, SR against things that ignore those, your Touch AC, your Flat Footed AC, your ability to avoid having the latter two targeted... CON, meanwhile, helps against almost anything that potentially kills you (Including most save-or-dies.) It may be a minor benefit, but it's widely applied.

2: Resistance and damage reduction essentially work out as multipliers to your HP (I know that's not what they mean mathematically, but in play, it's the practical result.) By higher levels, you're likely to have some DR, elemental resistances, etc - the more HP you have, the more benefit you're gonna get from those.

[ericgrau]

Melee need it to take hits. Wizards need it because they have so little already. Only ranged with a high hit die don't really need it. Archers can have a low con. So can casting clerics. But most classes need it. You will almost certainly take significant hp damage. Even if you also face saves, you will face a lot of hp damage too.

At minimum you need it more than dex for saves & initiative & sometimes AC (armor allowing), and wisdom for just saves. That leaves only your main stat and your dump stats. Thus con is nearly everybody's second stat (except for see above). Those that do use dex for AC in melee also tend to get weapon finesse and make dex their primary stat. Then con is still their 2nd stat.

[kardar233]

Also... what can pierce the Initiate of the Seven Veil's defenses?

Ummm, this is a high-op arena game... so, Disjunction?

[strider24seven]

Sell Con to me, Giants.

Most people do not like rerolling characters.
Characters with low CON tend to die frequently to the myriad of “Take X damage, no save, no SR” effects in D&D

Ergo, things that boost hp tend to be good. CON is one of those things. You also forgot that CON governs two saves for most melee characters because Steadfast Determination exists.

Besides, what other stat were you going to boost by dumping CON? STR and DEX are basically obsolete for most characters because Polymorph and Wild Shape exist... STR moreso because DEX governs Initiative, and not everyone can afford to keep Polymorph up all day. The only exception is at very low levels, where high STR is nice to be able to connect with attacks reliably, but even then CON is more important because a dead character has no chance of connecting with an attack at all. That leaves the 3 mental stats, all of which are mostly useless to any character without a casting stat. INT is sometimes required to meet skill requirements, and CHA is sometimes important to class features, and WIS boosts Will saves for low level or feat starved characters, but otherwise they only give a cushion vs ability damage. Of which, by the way, CON damage is the most common.

In short:
Mundanes need it because it boosts hp and two saves, and they generally do not need any other stat because spells give them better stats than they could get naturally.

Casters like it because they only need one other stat anyway (sometimes two, mostly for some of the inferior fullcasters, excluding Archivists, who can afford to only pick one of their casting stats to boost), and because they can get better stats via spells than they could get naturally.

[Jerthanis]

Almost every save-or-die is fortitude based. You might have some save-or-loses in Reflex or Will, but generally those Lose conditions are 'can't move for 3-4 rounds' or something that puts you out of the fight, but without permanent negative repercussions. Many fortitude save effects aren't that way, making Fortitude in many ways the most useful of the saves.

I do think that people often overestimate the effect of Con on HP though... damage tends to scale fast enough that while the numbers sound impressive, Con's effects don't manage to keep up with what you're dealing with as you level. To rely on HP to survive high level combat, you need more than just applying Con as a secondary stat priority.

Putting points in Con is never a bad idea, but there's usually some other place you might get more practical power... but you're always more fragile for doing so.

[eggynack]

If you took constitution on your wizard instead of charisma, then the character would be strictly better when it comes to winning the arena fight. I think this is obvious enough, because even if the stat doesn't do much in this particular case, at least it does something. Additionally, your character would be better off if he did use dump stats, and boosted constitution and dexterity even more. This is because constitution and dexterity have an effect, while strength and charisma have no effect, and wisdom has a significantly lower effect. However, because of the way you see character, you don't want to do that. That's perfectly fine, although possibly pointless for PvP arena fights, but it has nothing to do with how good constitution is in terms of optimization. If you could come up with a single statistical benefit that charisma had, then that would be another matter, but you can't because there isn't one.

To address the matter of why constitution is so powerful in general, it makes sense to look at how hp are generated in general. Assuming a +2 mod on a wizard, constitution is making up nearly half of your hitpoints at any given level. If your constitution is any higher, than you're mostly working off of the basis of constitution for your general survivability. At the other end of the spectrum, you have barbarians. Once again assuming +2, constitution is making up about a quarter of their hp. While they don't get as much out of constitution relative to hit dice, they're far more dependent on constitution because they're expected to block swords with their face. Thus, as the effect of constitution as a way to boost hp goes down, the hp requirements of a class tend to go up. Moreover, in a vacuum, con is the stat most likely to help a character. dexterity and intelligence are the second and third best, but every class likes fort saves and health, whereas any given class is unlikely to care about their charisma boost to skills. Ability scores generally don't make that much difference outside of the stats that have a primary effect on the class, so as a secondary score, con is excellent.

[georgie_leech]

Because being vulnerable to a Truenamer before level 20 is too embarassing to consider. :smallwink:

In all seriousness, everyone else has said everything I could say already

[Lonely Tylenol]

I wasn't suggesting dumping Con, just not raising it above 10.

However, TO exercise - can you make a level 20 Elf wizard with 1HP who is still playable?

(Short answer, yes, easily)

Sonic Snap.

1 damage, no save, no attack roll. Assay Spell Resistance to defeat the only defense against it.

Your 20-level Wizard is defeated by anybody who can successfully deliver a cantrip to them. (OK, in all fairness, a Wizard with 1HP is only staggered by Sonic Snap, and only begins dying if they cast a spell... So there are workarounds. Still, it isn't pretty.)