DeMADing Classes

[Lans]

I was thinking on how to deMAD various classes, because I feel that for classes like Monk that it is there biggest failing. Even if its by a small margin.

For monk change HD to d12, 6 skill points a level, and the ability to wear light armor. Give the monk +4 to hit for a round after a miss against a target. Wisdom to damage. I didn't want to j give just them full BAB. Maybe pathfinders flurry

Paladin Give smites per encounter, change smites bonus to hit to Charisma+Wisdom, and add both to damage, and base spells off of charisma. Lay on hands to (Charisma+Wisdom)*level. This keeps wisdom involved, but not required.


What other ergresiously MAD classes are there?

[Fouredged Sword]

Actually for monk I would give them scout skirmish progression and the snapkick feat in place of flurry of blows. I would give them Wis to Hp per HD after 6th level or so if it is better then their con.

For Paladin I would just set everything to charisma and dump the wisdom reqs. Give them 6 skillpoints per level and Cha to HD after level 6. Smites per encounter is nice.

Ether that or give over and let them have charisma based bardic spell progression. Let the paladin actually have useful amounts of magic!

[Prime32]

I didn't want to j give just them full BAB. Maybe pathfinders flurry:smallconfused: Pathfinder's flurry is full BAB, except that you count as having average BAB for taking feats and PrCs. They just made the wording overly complicated so they could still put average BAB in the table.

Also, give them Wis to attack while you're at it.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Cleric, assuming you're not going for the stereotypical heal bot.

[Namfuak]

I'm actually of the opinion that some maddening should be done for some classes. For example, having bonus spells queue off one stat and DCs off another. For Demadding monks, I'd say give them weapon finesse as a bonus feat and wisdom to damage and HP if it's higher than strength/con respectively (as well as full BAB, but that's not important to this discussion), and 6+int skills. Paladins could choose between cha and wis for both casting and special abilities (divine grace, lay on hands, etc), since they aren't full casters they don't need separate stats for Bonus spells and DCs. Also, they should get 4+int skill points. Fighters should also get that, as well as better skills (everything on the barb list, for one).

[Gwendol]

I always thought the turn undead for paladins was wrong vs cleric. The paladin is the righteous zealot with high charisma, they should be turning from level one at full strength. Do that and suddenly the paladin doesn't feel so MAD anymore. Also, CHA based casting.

[Namfuak]

I always thought the turn undead for paladins was wrong vs cleric. The paladin is the righteous zealot with high charisma, they should be turning from level one at full strength. Do that and suddenly the paladin doesn't feel so MAD anymore. Also, CHA based casting.

This is sort of off-topic, but it might be nice to give paladins a bonus feat every 4 levels that can be any bonus feat that requires turn undead use. Perhaps even let them ignore the "you must have the regular metamagic feat" for divine metamagic for those bonus feats. Besides DM and some devotion feats, most of the turn-undead fueled feats are mostly situational in usefulness, and I think it fits thematically that the paladin is able to channel his divine fury in varied ways.

[Person_Man]

You might want to look at the Pathfinder Paladin. It does a fairly good job (although the Paladin is arguably still Tier 4) of fixing Smite so that you're not at all MAD (in encounters vs Evil enemies, limited times per day).

[Eldonauran]

I happen to like the Monk being MAD. Rather than try to narrow it down to one stat or another, I'd give them more benefits for having a positive modifier on their WIS score.

I'd change the Monk AC bonus a bit. I'd call the ability Monk's Insight. In addition to gaining the static +1 to AC every 5 levels, I'd allow the Monk's Wisdom bonus to add to AC AND attack/damage roles with the Monk's Unarmed strike (including in flurry), but not monk weapons (or improved Unarmed Strike. They'd need an actual level of monk to qualify). The damage would be capped at Monk Level divided by two, minimum of +1.

[navar100]

Changing 3E paladin spellcasting to CH is an easy fix. It's what Pathfinder did, and that works out well. That's all he really needs. ST and CH are prime, and CO has the adventurer's tax. As long as DX is at least 10 he's fine. He's going for heavy armor. WI or IN is the dump stat depending on mood.

As for monk, make it a DX/WI class. He uses DX modifier for his to hit and damage. ST still counts for carrying capacity, etc. Make it a feat the monk can stack DX and ST. WI still gives bonus AC. Like all adventurers he has the CO tax, but bumping HD to d10 is still a good idea. Not d12. That's a barbarian thing warblade intruded upon. It's legacy.

Ranger can also be a DX/WI class. Just to differentiate it from monk, DX modifier is used to hit. WI modifier is used for damage, not halved for off-hand attacks if using two-weapon style class feature. Can take the same feat as monk to stack ST.

[ddude987]

I was thinking on how to deMAD various classes, because I feel that for classes like Monk that it is there biggest failing. Even if its by a small margin.

For monk change HD to d12, 6 skill points a level, and the ability to wear light armor. Give the monk +4 to hit for a round after a miss against a target. Wisdom to damage. I didn't want to j give just them full BAB. Maybe pathfinders flurry

Paladin Give smites per encounter, change smites bonus to hit to Charisma+Wisdom, and add both to damage, and base spells off of charisma. Lay on hands to (Charisma+Wisdom)*level. This keeps wisdom involved, but not required.


What other ergresiously MAD classes are there?

Easy monk fix that I've found being the best, full bab and was to attack rolls and damage instead of str when unarmored. It fits flavor and the monk still will be doing less damage than a barbarian, though a more consistent DPR.

[mangosta71]

To deMAD all classes in one fell swoop, you can take the approach that 4e did - give each class a primary stat that they use for both attack and damage rolls. Bam, done.

[Soranar]

Make CON and STR the same stat (basically get rid of one)

it's a marginal buff to sad classes (any spellcaster)

it's a great buff to everything else

also greatly changes the usefulness of some races/templates that tended to be considered overpowered by WOTC because they had a STR bonus

[Phelix-Mu]

Part of my monk fix just allows the monk to use the best of Str, Dex, or Wis to attack and damage (at 1st level for all attacks, at 1st to unarmed damage, at 3rd with monk weapons, and at 5th or so for all damage). I like more skill points, but a scaling bonus to acrobatics is even more appropriate.

I call it Mind over Brawn, but it's basically Brains over Brawn (as the Factotum class feature) but adding Wisdom Mod to Str and Dex skills and Str/Dex checks (fixing some of the issues monks have with combat maneuvers).

The monk AC bonus needs to be improved, so low-Wisdom monks don't just die, die, die. I'm thinking it starts at +2 and goes up by +1 every three levels, thus being the rough equivalent of cheap light armour at low levels.

Finally, my flurry fix is just to allow monks to move up to 1/2 their base speed as a swift action. This allows much greater versatility than other flurry fixes, IMO.

Paladins should be all Cha-based or all Wisdom-based. Allow a choice at 1st level, I think, and maybe slightly different flavor based on each archetype. Smites need to happen more often. No class feature should be X-uses/week. That's just stupid, not to mention hard to keep track of. Get rid of the stupid caster level nerfs. Spellcasting power should be restricted by the nature of a spell list; don't give a class spellcasting and then make them terrible at it.

[The Boz]

I made my own Monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13536035#post13536035) which I shamelessly link to every chance I get... It's Pathfinder, but the required modifications for a 3.5 game are minimal, if any.

So, how to de-MAD the classes... It is incredibly hard, the MAD classes (Monk, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, etc.) aren't problematic solely for their madness but their versatility as well. I'd start by giving them a choice between some role-dependant bonuses at certain levels. Example:

Fighter
At level 1, the fighter chooses a Martial Specialization and a Career Specialization. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20, he can either improve his current specializations, or he can learn others.
Martial Specializations:
Armored Warrior - Lowers armor check penalty and increases armor max dex by 1.
Sword & Board - Increases AC and attack by 1 when wielding a shield in one hand and a sword in the other.
Wrecker - Increases damage with all two-handed melee weapons by 2.
Archer - Increases attack and damage with all ranged weapons by 1.
These are all simple numerical bonuses, but they could play a minor role in the fighter's madness by compensating for some lower ability scores.

Career Specializations:
Diplomat - Gains Knowledge (nobility) and Diplomacy as class skills, gains a +1 bonus on said skills. When taking this specialization again, the bonus is doubled.
Mercenary - Gains Appraise and Knowledge (local) as class skills, gains a +1 bonus on said skills. When taking this specialization again, the bonus is doubled.
Soldier - Gains Heal and Profession (Soldier)as class skills, gains a +1 bonus on said skills. When taking this specialization again, the bonus is doubled.
Etc, you see where this is going. The goal here is to give the fighter more options besides bashing things up, and it kind of helps with the skill point costs of said things as well.

Rogue
Something very simple for the Rogue this time. A choice between three things at level 1:
Agile - You gain a number of additional skill points equal to four times your Dexterity modifier. At rogue level 2, and at every rogue level after that, you gain a number of additional skill points equal to your Dexterity modifier. You can only spend these skill points on Balance (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Tumble (Dex) and Use Rope (Dex).
Thug - Your rogue hit die increases to 1d8, and you gain 1 additional hit point every time you gain a level.
Dabbler - You gain the ability to cast Bard spells governed by your Intelligence. At level 1, you can cast 1 cantrip once per day. At level 3, you can cast a level 1 spell once per day. Your spellcasting ability continues to improve at levels 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18, but you only ever know one spell of each level. Usual ability-based spellcasting stuff (DCs, extra spells per day, etc).

The challenge here is to address the simple problem that is MAD, and not try to delve into the whole "primary casters > non-primary casters > mundanes" thing, because that problem will consume hundreds if not thousands of hours.

[classy one]

I deMAD classes by giving my players 2 or 3 18's right off the bat. This basically covers every class rather than forcing you to make house rules for every class.