Never Raise Dead Party Members (DM needs advice)

[TentacleSurpris]

As a DM, I'm running into a problem with my game. First I should say taht i like PC death. This latest campaign, people have been dying left and right.

But since the party is now evil and has very little attachment to each other, i've run into a problem. Rather than a PC death having some negative consequence on the party, instead they loot their fallen comrade, increase their relative treasure amount by roughly 33%, and go to town to search for a new adventurer. Since the players get to play, the new PC shows up, he's one level lower (the same as if he'd died), with an appropriate amount of treasure, and instead of the party being 6000 gp poorer, they're all richer. It's against everyone's interest to raise fallen comrades, evil or not.

There are a few solutions I've come up with for this, but none of them are very satisfying:

1. Change the treasure awarded behind the scenes to remove gold equal to what they loot from fallen party members. This just makes adventuring less satisfying.

2. Have their patron (a red dragon) order them to bring dead comrades back so he can raise them, and deduct the cost from the party's quest reward (in my game, the PCs have been invested with a piece of the dragon's soul). But this just again feels like the DM forcing the players to play a certain way.

3. Make the new-character penalties more serious than the death penalties, i.e. even less treasure and xp, but this just means that they're more likely to die again. But sometimes players who've rolled low stats are happy to get new characters.


How do other DMs handle this issue?

[Dissonance]

One thing thing you can do that will make your players very paranoid about their characters and wanting to be raised is to not let them start with magic items.

As in if they have to make a new character, they don't get to pick magic items.

At all.

It's a painful kick in the gut of higher level adventurers, and it would then be in the best intrests of the party to rearm them with the gear that their previous character(s) lost.

If you really want to stop the looting, have them start with lv 1 gold. It will be enough to arm them with the basics and nothing more. High level starting gold takes into account magic items which they won't be starting with anyway.

This should break the cycle.

[Gnome Alone]

Could be wrong but it sounds like you're killing them left and right, so either they suck at character building or you're playing Whack-a-Mole with PCs. Doesn't sound like the kind of atmosphere to encourage caring about a character enough to revive them.

[Amnestic]

Your next plothook revolves around people coming back as undead a day after they died. This includes monsters, commoners and everyone else. If the body is destroyed, they come back as a ghost or other spirit.

You can recruit new party members, but your old ones might be coming back to haunt you - and they're a bit miffed that you stole everything off their corpse.

Why does this happen? I'm sure there's a reason. God of Death not doing his job, magic McGuffin artifact interfering with the normal way people pass on, an Epic Necromancy spell gone wild...


Could be wrong but it sounds like you're killing them left and right, so either they suck at character building or you're playing Whack-a-Mole with PCs. Doesn't sound like the kind of atmosphere to encourage caring about a character enough to revive them.

Got this vibe too.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah, if they abuse it, just stop giving them appropriate WBL.


You can also try getting them to agree to give dead PCs items to their next of kin.

[zlefin]

I'd use a modified version of number 2;
have their red dragon patron order them to give the dead guys stuff to the new guy; the new guy comes with no other equipment (hey, sometimes people lose all their stuff, it happens). That's how the red dragon keeps getting new recruits for the dangerous missions he sends them on; he finds guys who lost their stuff and agrees to equip them for their service.

[navar100]

As a DM, I'm running into a problem with my game. First I should say taht i like PC death. This latest campaign, people have been dying left and right.



That's your problem right there. If you as DM don't empathize with PCs, why should the players? It's not your job as DM to kill PCs. No DM should "like PC death". It's an unfortunate consequence that sometimes happens, not something to look forward to. Add in an all evil campaign, might as well be playing Paranoia.

[Krobar]

This is one of the risks you take when you kill your PCs on a regular basis.

Personally, I wouldn't feel right trying to DM fiat the remaining party members out of the gear I GAVE THEM BY REGULARLY KILLING OFF PARTY MEMBERS.

But if you must, since they're working for a red dragon, you could have the red dragon just demand the dead guys' equipment for his own hoard.

[SimonMoon6]

The relatives of the dead PC want their inheritance, the money (and goods) that the living PCs stole from the dead PC.

The dead PC doesn't like the fact that his body was looted. He comes back as an undead monster of your choice.

In a 1st edition campaign of mine, a certain PC hired an army of mercenaries. Then, when all the mercenaries died, he looted the bodies to get his money back. Well, all the mercenaries came back as revenants (way too powerful for the PC to handle) who hunted the PC down for the rest of his life.

[Gnome Alone]

Well, I could see PC death being interesting from a dramatic standpoint. This does not sound like the case though.

Hey, what's the problem? This way you get to kill them and they get free stuff and thus can enjoy PC death too; it's a win-win situation.

[Pally din]

A relative of the dead PC is more powerful than the PC, and comes for the inheritance / family heirloom. Is powerful enough to be a challenge to the party.

PC death in a way that destroys or makes inaccessible their gear. Acid, deep pit, changed (yet dead) PC guarding his stuff, whatever monsters killed them still there, whatever monsters killed them powerfull enough to make them run away the first time, more monsters attracted by the loot (maybe the evil race's chief hires more bad guys from the PC looted).

They are in a LN to LE country and there is a death (estate) tax, or even an adventurer tax.

Extra magic items above WBL raises the effective CR of encounters.

Make new characters have a decent backstory that includes relatives, enemies, and makes the players care more.

Some of the dead PC's enemies come by claiming the dead PC owed a debt to them, or the dead PC stole one of the magic items from them, and they want it back for personal reasons. Bonus if the debt is to an organization.

Lastly, mix and match all of the above techniques so that looting PCs is hard, each time, but for different reasons each time.

[nedz]

Get out the wrecking ball otherwise your effectively monty haul game will become dull. Here are some ideas.

Next time you kill a PC do it by having them bull rushed into a Sphere of Annihilation. Bonus points if this is PvP.

If they keep the excess loot in a Portable Hole, slip them a Bag of Holding in the next loot — without it being obvious.

If they keep the excess loot in a Bag of Holding have them walk into an open Portable Hole. which is being used as a walk in wardrobe.

You probably shouldn't use the Disjunction method because it's a tad obvious.

[Chaosvii7]

It's totally sound for evil characters to feel some emotion towards the death of another party member. I suppose if you want, you could also make them feel it

If they get into a scuff with a cleric, a Geas to make them avenge the death of their most recently fallen ally could make an interesting direction. Assuming they're evil, they'll need to be higher level and know remove curse to get rid of it, because lord knows that they'll be able to find somebody to help them remove the geas.

I wouldn't say causing them grief is the right way to go, but to convince them to feel more strongly(Regardless of what they feel, just how they feel it) is a good idea. I'm always upset when a character dies, and I think regardless of party composition, most of the other players usually mourn the loss of a character too.

If not then they're either bad people or bad characters, because everyone gets attached to certain characters, and if they take some sort of sick pleasure in constantly killing their own characters then they may want to think about getting psychiatric help.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Yeah, if they abuse it, just stop giving them appropriate WBL.


You can also try getting them to agree to give dead PCs items to their next of kin.

This, or simply not let them reroll a character.

Everyone has their current character, and if dead, there is no one else who will adventure with the evil SOBs who keep looting their comrades.

The player hopefully, will want to play, and the other players will not want to go around your deadly world a body short. So to the Resurrection chamber with them they will go...

Still, I wouldn't like to play in a game with wanton death and destruction. Death is the reward for the stupid, not just because a GM likes to kill PCs (echoing Navar100above).

[HurinTheCursed]

I hate methods that involve targetting a living player's loot in a definitive way as a DM and as a player. Setting level-2 instead of -1 for a new character would work but I find their decision RP.

Ghosts is a nice idea.

Or have new adventurers signing contracts with the dragon that stipulates in the small lines that if case of his death, his material should be returned to the dragon.

[Telonius]

The new adventurer makes a DC 5 (-1 per adventurer killed) Knowledge: Local check to know the average life expectancy of the team. He should then be able to negotiate his share of the treasure accordingly.

Also: adventurers with skewed WBL are an invitation for high-level thieves and other enemies. A peasant who finds a +5 flaming demonbane Vorpal greataxe is not going to have it in his possession very long.

[TentacleSurpris]

Hey, I'm not killing them for my enjoyment, don't get me wrong. Sometimes it's legitimate game challenge, sometimes it's bad player decisions.

But when the fighter gets on his horse and runs down a separate hallway, pulling 2 encounters to him, and then decides to fight 5 monsters while his companions catch up, he dies.

Or when the 2nd level Daring Outlaw fails his will save against Sleep and gets a Coup de Grace from a nearby hobgoblin, he dies.

Or when the wizard tries to kill the friendly NPC wizard who helped them in a battle, because he got caught in the NPCs fear radius, and consequently sucks up a Phantasmal Killer spell, he dies.

Or when a wizard with 6000 gp says "nah, I don't need healing" to the cleric who is charging 20g per spell, when said wizard only has 11 hp in a level 6 dungeon, and then fails a save on an Explosive Runes trap, he dies.

I'm just saying I like it when the players feel very aware of their own mortality. My players think I'm doing everything I can to end the campaign so I can start a new one though.

[Gildedragon]

What about hiring/recruiting a new PC to the party costs the stuff they loot (payment, getting gear, etc)

[Flickerdart]

The way WBL works is that each character has access to X amount of wealth for Y level. It doesn't mean X amount of wealth must be dropped in encounters by Y level. If your players are racking up cash through looting their dead allies, then the system demands you reduce their treasure rewards to compensate.

I would, however, recommend dropping a few scrolls/power stones of revivify, because if enough people die to make this a problem, something is very wrong.

[Kudaku]

As near as I can tell your players are not raising their characters because they have no mechanical reason to do so, and no out-of-game reason to do so.

For mechanical reasons, you need to make the "roll a new character"-option look less enticing. Placing WBL a level or two below the rest of the party is a good start, putting some limitations on how they spend that WBL isn't half wrong - most characters aren't allowed to custom design their loot the first time round, but when they get a flat number to spend it's impressive how many perfect setups show up. Personally I use a rule that states that you cannot spend more than 25% of your total WBL on a single item. It's not perfect but it goes some way to fix it.

On the flip side, you might want to consider ways to make returning from the dead less expensive relative to your level. On low levels shelling out 5 000 GP for a raise is a fortune, on high levels death is a speed bump. I believe 4th edition handles this by having Raise Dead cost a varying amount based on the level of the character.

However, if you want your players to care about their characters, I'd suggest you gave them a chance to get to know them. If you're rolling up a new character every two sessions there's no real reason to grow attached.

[Spuddles]

Rust monsters, ethereal filchers, sunder, disarm, sleight of hand, disjunction, etc.

There are plenty of tools in D&D to take away player toys. Just be careful- if you have players as entitled as playgrounders act, you may have a bunch of upset players to deal with. But if they are handling lots of pc death well, they probably aren't too whiny.

[MukkTB]

Other penalties than death. Being stripped naked and dropped into a pit for the BBEG's amusement would be the harshest example.

Or you change the rules for how people start new characters. Our group has a particularly nasty fate for anyone who dies. They start level 1 and gain double experience until the bonus XP is equal to the XP of the old character. Eventually they catch up with everyone else, but its a painful process and they don't get any extra wealth to show for it. It helps that we play low levels.

[Flickerdart]

Other penalties than death. Being stripped naked and dropped into a pit for the BBEG's amusement would be the harshest example.

Or you change the rules for how people start new characters. Our group has a particularly nasty fate for anyone who dies. They start level 1 and gain double experience until the bonus XP is equal to the XP of the old character. Eventually they catch up with everyone else, but its a painful process and they don't get any extra wealth to show for it. It helps that we play low levels.
A black day! Our party was not powerful enough to defeat Lord Awesome's right hand man without losing one of our own in return. Now let's find the nearest inexperienced peasant and press-gang him into service; surely that will give us the edge we need to defeat the next threat Lord Awesome throws at us.

[Callin]

A black day! Our party was not powerful enough to defeat Lord Awesome's right hand man without losing one of our own in return. Now let's find the nearest inexperienced peasant and press-gang him into service; surely that will give us the edge we need to defeat the next threat Lord Awesome throws at us.

That is awesome.


There must be a Paladin in the group.

[Gnome Alone]

Ha, that's clearly the same guy who goes on to become a 20th level questgiver, sending low level adventurers out to get mauled by fiendish beasts that he could deal with himself in like two seconds.

[Callin]

Behold Capt. Impressment!!! Arch Nemesis of Lord Awesome

[MukkTB]

DON' HAVE THE BALLS TO START YOUR CHARACTERS FROM LEVEL 1?

[Slipperychicken]

Lord Awesome'

This is an awesome name. Reading that, I just know there's an epic tale of Lord Awesome waiting to be told.

[Flickerdart]

This is an awesome name. Reading that, I just know there's an epic tale of Lord Awesome waiting to be told.
Lord Awesome is an epic dragon who wields only the most awesome combat options: his is the deadly Awesome Blow, usually combined with Awesome Smite; he also has levels in Fangshield Barbarian for the Awesome Charge class feature, and has taken a level in Dragon Ascendant to broadcast an Awesome Aura.

[JusticeZero]

One, you need to apply part one. Two, next time anyone dies, 'You have 200 gp for equipment.' Period.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think the dragon should lay claim to the treasure (and souls?) of those that fall while in his service. I mean, it's a dragon. That sounds like pretty baseline evil dragon behavior.

Evil party members can't loot the dead pcs, now new pcs can have normal WBL (with penalties for replacement pc, of course). Problem solved.

[Skysaber]

I'd go for "starting 1st lvl wealth only" regardless of level.

And your rationale for this is simply "everybody has heard of you guys".

Seriously, just like sailors avoid a cursed ship or an unlucky captain, only the most desperate, broke and nothing to lose sort would sign up for an adventuring group that made most of its money by looting its fallen comrades.

So, they simply can't hire anyone who has any wealth at all.

[Krobar]

I'd go for "starting 1st lvl wealth only" regardless of level.

And your rationale for this is simply "everybody has heard of you guys".

Seriously, just like sailors avoid a cursed ship or an unlucky captain, only the most desperate, broke and nothing to lose sort would sign up for an adventuring group that made most of its money by looting its fallen comrades.

So, they simply can't hire anyone who has any wealth at all.

Or somebody significantly more powerful looking for cannon fodder that he can loot after THEY die off. Or he wants to make an example of them.
:smallamused:

[Talothorn]

I had an almost identical problem a few years ago. I was DMing a group of 5 players. Normal gaming sessions for several weeks. (note: I do not intentionally try to kill PC's, but if they do something that would mean death, I let them die.) One day they started playing much differently. Not "being reckless" so much as "being suicidal". 3 of the players started doing things that were assured of getting themselves killed. I realized they were intentionally dying because each new character took starting equipment that complimented the other characters more than themselves, and the higher level members just stood and watched the other characters die.

My solution was this:
1) each time a character died, they could make a new character that was one level lower, at exactly the XP to be at that level. (instead of one level below party average) Party understands that "experience is a river", so they don't care, assuming the lower characters can catch up.
2) They were allowed to start with the appropriate level of wealth.
3) CR of opponents was tied to party median instead of party average, but experience
-to start, all players were lvl 12
-after a few rounds of shenanigans, party levels were 13,13,10,10,and 9
-party average level would be 11, but party median is 10 (not a big difference yet, but experience rewards were shrinking)
-party levels get down to 13,13,7,7,5
-now the median is 7 (vs average of 9), CR of encounters no longer high enough for level 13 characters to get xp at all. (they are still accumulating wealth, though, so they don't recognize the problem, yet...)
-I apologize sincerely, explaining that I don't mean to make the challenges so tough, and that I feel bad the 3 characters keep dying. Assured them that I was not trying to kill their characters. Party tries to hide conspiritial grins and assures me it's not my fault, they understand it's just bad luck. I look confused.
4) Now I drop the CR from "appropriate challenge" to "easy encounter"
- However, I use viscous tactics and play the enemies intelligently and mercilessly. (CR 4 and 5 monsters played tough vs lvl 5-7 characters trying to die still results in death)
5) party gets down to 13,13,4, 4, 3, and they are fighting CR1 encounters reminiscent of Tucker's Kobolds. Near TPKs.
6) New characters (13,12 (almost a clone of the last character, but still not raised), 2,2,2). They fight CR 1/2 spiders. Poison kills two lvl 2 characters, a 10' pit trap kills other lvl 2. Lvl 12 and 13 characters getting tired of their scheme, ready to gain levels again. (by this point, new characters come in with a few cure light wounds potions, so the loot isn't even worth it anymore. The two high level PC's have the appropriate wealth for level 20 characters, but haven't received xp in 3 weeks.) High level PCs mention they want to be able to have real encounters again. (I lol inside)
7) the level 1 characters die. I pull the two higher level characters outside to talk. I have prepared for this. I make the Sad Face and tell them I don't know how to tell the other three they can't play, and ask for their advice.
8) There is confusion and despair. They ask what I mean. (we are all good friends, they just figured the cheese was brilliant and there would be no real repercussions. ) I explain that the characters died at level one. There is no way they can be brought back at one level lower. The have to wait until we start a new campaign to play again. I tell them that it wouldn't be fare to the two of them for me to allow them back in, as: 1) if I made challenges appropriate for the 1st level characters, their characters wouldn't be allowed to help, or the encounter would be too easy to qualify for xp, so their characters wouldn't be able to get xp for a minimum of 10 levels. 2) if I made encounters appropriate for their characters *which would be much higher than their levels due to their power and wealth*, the lower level characters wouldn't get any xp as they would have no way to contribute without certain death. 3) if I made encounters for the party average, nobody could get xp. (too high for lowbies, to low for high levels)

At this point they realized that things had gotten bad, and they asked to talk to the other characters. They all talked, and some voices were raised. I almost died when I heard one shout "this was your stupid idea, how do we fix it!"

They ask me how they can get everyone back in the game. I say "Easy. The two high level characters have to retire, and everyone starts with a level one character."

The silence and stunned looks were good, the sheepish looks on the 2 high level players were better, and the cackling laughter of the three low level characters was great. So we started with 5 first level characters.

They admitted to me 3 weeks later that they had planned to use repitive character death as a way of amassing wealth and magic items. I told them I wasn't mad, and it was creative. I showed them the emails I had exchanged with another friend for the past several weeks where I had realized they were doing that, and my plans for fixing it. I had predicted the outcome, but figured it would take much longer.

[Soranar]

You could always hit the reset button on your players' wealth

meaning they lose everything due to being robbed,imprisoned (lawfully or not) etc

[icefractal]

The problem here is that it is an evil game, and there appears to be a bit of a backstabby element. That means that looting the fallen isn't gaming the system, it's an entirely appropriate action.

And it also means that penalizing the new character isn't going to work well. Either:
A) The players stay in-character, and do not give their precious stuff to some newbie recruit. Anyone who dies stays in the "suck zone" for quite a while, probably dying more as a result. This quite possibly causes out of game tension.
B) To not screw over the actual players, everybody has to act in ways that make little sense in-game. It's not the end of the world, but it will feel at least as artificial as the dragon forcing them to do it - possibly worse in fact.

My advice would be twofold:
1) Don't worry about it. Having a little extra treasure will only improve the characters by a linear amount. You can easily make the foes and hazards a bit more challenging to compensate.
2) Reduce treasure, in ways that make sense. Don't do something ham-handed like "you lose all your stuff in a cut-scene", but there are a lot of entirely reasonably ways that less treasure could show up - non-equipment-using (or incompatible equipment using) foes, hazardous places you have to use consumable items to deal with, the occasional rip-off in purchasing items, and so forth. Again, you don't have to stay rigidly on WBL, just be on the same order of magnitude.

[TuggyNE]

(snip)

Sir, I admire your high Bluff score.