Evil oposite theme

[Chantelune]

In strip 883, Nale says to Z that they have "finally shaken that ridiculous evil oposite theme". The way he speak of it seems to imply that this was not his idea to begin with, but I found this rather strange as I do recall that back in Cliffport, when they were scouting for more member for the LG, Nale was the one who wanted to keep the theme going despite Sabine's suggestions.

So who's idea was it and why keep at it for so long if he wanted to get rid of it ? Doesn't seem to be Sabine's, as mentioned earlier and couldn't be Thog as he's just a follower who let the others do the thinking. I thought of the IFCC, but doubt it, as it seems Nale doesn't really know about them.

This keep gnawing at me. Not saying this is some plot hole or anything, but seems to me that if Nale wanted to get rid of that theme, he could have done so a lot of time and kept insisting to keep it going every time he needed to replace members.

What do you guys think of this ? :smallconfused:

[GigaGuess]

Remember who we're talking about here. A man with grandiose views on himself. This is the same guy who is counting himself as a "Caster" on par with Malack, Durkula and Zz'Dtri. I chalk it up to him taking anything that goes up, down or pear shaped as "all part of my fiendish plans," because admitting it isn't would be admitting he failed to account for something.

[hamishspence]

I think it was after Pompey, who turned out to be deadweight (from Nale's point of view), that Nale was soured on the theme.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html

[martianmister]

In strip 883, Nale says to Z that they have "finally shaken that ridiculous evil oposite theme". The way he speak of it seems to imply that this was not his idea to begin with, but I found this rather strange as I do recall that back in Cliffport, when they were scouting for more member for the LG, Nale was the one who wanted to keep the theme going despite Sabine's suggestions.
What do you guys think of this ? :smallconfused:

In Cliffort arc, LG's main motivation was being antagonists/evil counterparts to Elan and the Order. It's no longer their main goal, so, he rid the theme.

[Marlowe]

Nale is simply not one of those "constant as the northern star" people. He's an erratic and mercurial fellow who ditches his goals, allies, and plans on a sniff of something better. It's entirely in-character for him to admit the "evil opposites" theme was "lame" in a way that doesn't specifically admit it was his mistake.

That said; the original "evil opposites" team was built without knowledge of the OOTS and turned out to be as they were owing to rule of drama. Nale all but admitted he was keeping it up largely due to sunk cost fallacy during the pre-Cliffport recruiting, and during the escape from Azure City showed some signs of having realised it was a bad idea. "I mean; Pompey! What was I thinking?"

[Chantelune]

Mmmh, interesting points, yeah. I never really considered his dismissal of Pompey as considering the evil opposite's theme as annoying, I saw it as him considering that it was a mistake to hire a student to go against mid/high level characters.

But even when he was reforming the LG in EoB, he seemed to think that the new team was lacking something until Kilkil entered, so it looked to me that he was still trying to keep the theme running, hence my surprise at 883.

[Jay R]

So who's idea was it and why keep at it for so long if he wanted to get rid of it ?

It was Rich's idea for a one-time joke, before he thought the strip would go on this long.

Then he kept it up as a running gag, coming up with more jokes about the evil opposites. But I suspect it was getting harder to do so, since he now had to fit it into a particular story he wanted to tell.

So now that theme would get in the way of the story, this is Rich's way of announcing that that particular comic element is being abandoned.

[Kish]

So now that theme would get in the way of the story, this is Rich's way of announcing that that particular comic element is being abandoned.
That is quite an assumption.

[Jay R]

That is quite an assumption.

Of course. But no more than the rest of this thread, which is mostly people trying to determine when Nale changed his mind, independent of the author's decisions.

[Kish]

...Buh.

You're saying that assuming that Nale has a story-internal motivation, rather than just being a puppet who jumps because Rich yanked his strings, is as much of an assumption as "this is Nale becoming Rich's mouthpiece"? I'd call that pretty insulting to Rich as a writer, personally.

[Chantelune]

It was Rich's idea for a one-time joke, before he thought the strip would go on this long.

Then he kept it up as a running gag, coming up with more jokes about the evil opposites. But I suspect it was getting harder to do so, since he now had to fit it into a particular story he wanted to tell.

So now that theme would get in the way of the story, this is Rich's way of announcing that that particular comic element is being abandoned.

Thinking that way, wy bother talking about character's motivations, their actions, etc... at all ? Most of the topics that we can see on this forum could be answered with "Rich want it so", but a good writer keep things consistent, so I believe there is some consistency for Nale to suddenly want to throw away that theme when he did his best until now to keep it going.

Heck, going by your argument, we coul have Belkar suddenly becoming good, just because "Rich made him an evil bastard when it was just a gag-a-strip comic and now he need him to be good, so he is".

Plus, the circumstances made it that the LG is no longer evil opposite of the OOtS. Nale could just get away with not mentioning it until he goes on another recruitment spur. If at all. But he mention it and that makes me curious as to why he now reveal such a thought and since when does he think so, why did he stick to it so long if he hated it... ^^

[Jay R]

...Buh.

You're saying that assuming that Nale has a story-internal motivation, rather than just being a puppet who jumps because Rich yanked his strings, is as much of an assumption as "this is Nale becoming Rich's mouthpiece"? I'd call that pretty insulting to Rich as a writer, personally.

Good thing I never said that, then.

[Mike Havran]

This keep gnawing at me. Not saying this is some plot hole or anything, but seems to me that if Nale wanted to get rid of that theme, he could have done so a lot of time and kept insisting to keep it going every time he needed to replace members.

What do you guys think of this ? :smallconfused:

For some reason, I think that's just another way for him to bolster his ego. He constantly needs reassurance that he's a total badass with full control of the situation. Tarquin leaving will weaken his team so Nale needs to tell himself "it's all part of a plan...MY plan..." once again. So now he makes himself to believe that "shaking of the theme" is an improvement.

[King of Nowhere]

I find the idea of ditching the evil opposite teme particularly funny since tarquin and malack are the best evil opposite the guild ever had. As roy pointed out in his last fight against thog, an evil opposite has to be equal on most things. just having a couple of opposite attributes do not qualify.

[Belkar<3]

Don't forget Nale's personality, too. He would say whatever would make him seem good (egotistical).

[LuPuWei]

I think it was after Pompey, who turned out to be deadweight (from Nale's point of view), that Nale was soured on the theme.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html

This, I think is pretty much it.

Each character starts with some defining traits which they can either choose to stick to or grow past. As of the comic quoted by hamishspence, he's identified one of his own limitations and is doing his best to become something more. As with most characters, this usually takes time to fully achieve, but it definitely seems to be a part of his own little Evil Character arc.

[Mike Havran]

I think it was after Pompey, who turned out to be deadweight (from Nale's point of view), that Nale was soured on the theme.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html

I disagree. Nale felt that something "was missing" in 822 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) and accepted a weak kobold to keep the theme going.

[ScubaGoomba]

He could be talking more from a meta-narrative, in that, by shedding the "evil opposites" them, they're becoming the major antagonists to the OotS and not the annoying side-villains. Whether or not this is true, Nale's arrogance would love to believe it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I disagree. Nale felt that something "was missing" in 822 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) and accepted a weak kobold to keep the theme going.

That may have to do with keeping the appearance of the LG as Evil Opposites for the Order's sake and distraction.

[Morquard]

It's Nale. If "his" team would have ended up being a figher character, a rogue, himself and a level-drained kobold he'd have said "The LG is strong enough to defeat the OotS, and we even kept our "evil opposite" theme!"

Now that his new party is so obviously not en evil opposite, he declares it lame and gives the impression that he never really wanted it. Otherwise, how could this group have a chance of winning, if his genius idea of evil opposites never could.

[Shadowknight12]

I actually really liked one of the comments I read on the comic thread, which went something like "Yeah, Nale, good job ditching the evil opposites theme, with your team of three competent spellcasters and one gimped spellcaster with some warrior sprinkled in, versus your brother's team of three competent warriors and one gimped warrior with some spellcaster sprinkled in."

I don't think he will never be rid of it. :smallyuk:

[Lord Raziere]

nope.

Nale is still stuck with evil opposites.

he just doesn't realize that three spell casters are the opposite of three fighters.

now watch him fail, even with like….the most powerful classes in the game.

because thats what the linear guild exists to do: fail despite all tactical advantage due to Nale's own incompetence.

heck, the very fact that the Linear Guild has changed constantly while the Order of the Stick has remained consistent, further highlights how stuck they are in evil opposites, because if they had grown out of it, they would not need to change yet again while they try to defeat the same guys they've always been trying to defeat. :smalltongue:

[VanaGalen]

I think Nale's attitude is very realistic here. At first, he was hired as 2nd class recurring antagonist for the comic. So he though "Ok, so now I need the team for the job and it can't be just any balanced group, we need some trademark. As my goatee-free twin brother is one of the protagonists, I will go with this theme and make full star-trek-like Evil Opposites group." He carefully selected the rest of his party, called it "Linear Guild", and frankly I think it paid off in that scene where they meet.

But then it got worse. He lost 2 competent and hard to find team members, and replacements he found were pretty lame - Leeky was a huge stretch as Durkon's opposite and Pompey was more useless than even Elan. His costs for replacement kobolds probably were over the budget as well. At this point he probably was fed up with the theme, but decided to keep going because he had invested so much already. Also, Nale isn't someone who is ready to admit he made some mistakes and move on.
So he got back Zz'dtri, which was worth the effort regardless of the theme, because the drow is after all very good and high-level caster.
But the theme was pretty much dead at that point, so he finally got rid of it. He was forced to do so, he lost his "opposites" for Roy, Haley and Belkar. He gained Malack who would be great evil opposite for Durkon, but hey, the OotS does not have Durkon anymore. It was impossible to keep the theme going under these circumstances. However, Nale can't simply say "oh well, it was good as it lasted, but it's time to move on". He had to justify his decision by saying "it was stupid and I never really liked it anyway".
He simply can't admit he was wrong, or that he changed his mind. If the idea seems silly to him at the moment, it have always been silly.

As for Kilkil, it seems that it was Tarquin's idea to bring him along rather than Nale's. As much useless as Kilkil seems to be, he apparently is somehow involved in Tarquin's secret plan.

[Mike Havran]

But then it got worse. He lost 2 competent and hard to find team members, and replacements he found were pretty lame - Leeky was a huge stretch as Durkon's opposite and Pompey was more useless than even Elan.
Leeky was badass. He didn't win (or, at least, kill Vaarsuvius) only because Thor screwed the rules.

[Cheesegear]

Nale is still stuck with evil opposites.

he just doesn't realize that three spell casters are the opposite of three fighters.

This.
I had thought that that was the joke.

Finally ditching the evil opposites theme, and then in the very next sentence saying how he was going to win with spellcasters (when we know that the Order has none).

Joke's on you, Nale. You're not done with evil opposites...Yet.

[Lossoth]

I think that when Tarquin rebuilt the LG and -sort of- revived the "Evil Opposites" theme in 822 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html), Nale decided it was stupid.

[Bulldog Psion]

Leeky was badass. He didn't win (or, at least, kill Vaarsuvius) only because Thor screwed the rules.

Yes, Leeky was the victim of what was probably the only actual deus ex machina ever to appear in the strip. :smallbiggrin:

However, since it was hilarious, I don't mind. :smallwink: Even if it was the only druid ever to appear in the strip getting trounced by a cheating god, sigh. :smallfrown:

[FujinAkari]

Yes, Leeky was the victim of what was probably the only actual deus ex machina ever to appear in the strip. :smallbiggrin:

And technically, even that wasn't a Deus Ex Machina :P

Deus Ex Machina requires a God to come out of no where and resolve the plot, as the strip had already shown that Durkon's prayers were heard directly by Thor, it doesn't count :P

[Chantelune]

You make some interesting point, just two things I'd like to comment on :


I think Nale's attitude is very realistic here. At first, he was hired as 2nd class recurring antagonist for the comic. So he though "Ok, so now I need the team for the job and it can't be just any balanced group, we need some trademark. As my goatee-free twin brother is one of the protagonists, I will go with this theme and make full star-trek-like Evil Opposites group." He carefully selected the rest of his party, called it "Linear Guild", and frankly I think it paid off in that scene where they meet.

[...]

As for Kilkil, it seems that it was Tarquin's idea to bring him along rather than Nale's. As much useless as Kilkil seems to be, he apparently is somehow involved in Tarquin's secret plan.

I don't think Nale knew about Elan being his brother beforehand. Tarquin said he never told Nale about having a brother and the core of the LG was already assembled when Nale rebelled against his father. I'd think that it was mere chance that they fitted the theme in the first place (well, not considering that it was for joke's sake on Rich's side).

As for Kilkil, in 822, you can see that both Tarquin and Nale have the same "that's it" smile after Kilkil showing up. So even if Tarquin had some other interest in having him joining in, I doubt he needed to say anything, Nale seemed eager enough to get him to join to complete the team.

But reading people's opinion on the topic, I can see Nale trying to pretend he never liked the theme just to appear in control. Hopefully, he won't be there afterward to suffer the shame of gettin back with the theme and having to now pretend that he was always true to it. :smallbiggrin:

[VanaGalen]

Leeky was badass. He didn't win (or, at least, kill Vaarsuvius) only because Thor screwed the rules.

Yes, Leeky was pretty kickass, there's not denying that. I'm just saying that was nothing "opposite" to Durkon in him. Any other evil divine caster would fit the scheme just as well. His love for trees was his only anti-Durkon trait, so that's very little compared to Hilgya.



You make some interesting point, just two things I'd like to comment on :

I don't think Nale knew about Elan being his brother beforehand. Tarquin said he never told Nale about having a brother and the core of the LG was already assembled when Nale rebelled against his father. I'd think that it was mere chance that they fitted the theme in the first place (well, not considering that it was for joke's sake on Rich's side).

As for Kilkil, in 822, you can see that both Tarquin and Nale have the same "that's it" smile after Kilkil showing up. So even if Tarquin had some other interest in having him joining in, I doubt he needed to say anything, Nale seemed eager enough to get him to join to complete the team.

But reading people's opinion on the topic, I can see Nale trying to pretend he never liked the theme just to appear in control. Hopefully, he won't be there afterward to suffer the shame of gettin back with the theme and having to now pretend that he was always true to it. :smallbiggrin:

Ah, right, he had Thog, Sabine and... well, the first kobold, put the right vovel in Y*ky*k, I can't remember their names :smallredface: before he knew about Elan. However, I know Elan's mother certainly didn't tell him about his brother, but I always thought Tarquin didn't withold anything from Nale?
But you're right, it seems Nale got only Hilgya and maybe Zz'dtri specifically for his evil opposites theme.

And I also wish he gave that idea up for good. I also hope Nale & Elan weren't quadruplets with sisters LG Lena and CE Nela...

[Chantelune]

Tarquin told Elan he never mentioned him to nale to make their meeting more dramatic here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html). He might have found out when hired by Xykon before actually meeting the order, but it would have mean that Xykon knew the Order were coming for him and that Nale still didn't have a full team at the time Xykon recruited the LG. Sounds unlikely to me. :smallwink:

[Mike Havran]

Yes, Leeky was pretty kickass, there's not denying that. I'm just saying that was nothing "opposite" to Durkon in him. Any other evil divine caster would fit the scheme just as well. His love for trees was his only anti-Durkon trait, so that's very little compared to Hilgya.
Well, Leeky and Durkon have opposite color theme: light brown, grey, dark brown
Durkon: deep fear of trees
Leeky: deep love and care for trees

Durkon: rather quiet and modest
Leeky: ambitious large ham

Durkon: enlarged by Thor's Might
Leeky: enlarged by transformation

Durkon: follows his leader and the leader is his bestie.
Leeky: has Leadership feat and wasn't shown to give a damn about Nale whatsoever.

Seems a pretty good opposite, especially since the Alignment- and Gender-wise opposite theme was already done.

[Kish]

Also, both Durkon and Leeky anthropomorphize trees to an extent that is a rather major part of their philosophy.

[Souju]

personally i think the stated abandonment of the evil opposites theme is a sign that someone, or almost everyone, amongst the current "LG" is not going to be returning home after this.
And, as per prophecy, will not be Durkon.

[VanaGalen]

Tarquin told Elan he never mentioned him to nale to make their meeting more dramatic here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html). He might have found out when hired by Xykon before actually meeting the order, but it would have mean that Xykon knew the Order were coming for him and that Nale still didn't have a full team at the time Xykon recruited the LG. Sounds unlikely to me. :smallwink:

Aww, I forgot about that strip. I suppose Nale could've sought out his mother when he arrived on the northern continent and learned about Elan that way.


As for Leeky... he has some opposite traits, but I think he just isn't as legible Durkon's opposite as Hilgya or Malack. Redcloak, Tsukiko or any other evil divine caster could be fit into that scheme just as well as Leeky was.