**** verisimilitude: players, dragons, and anatomy...

[QuasiMurderHobo]

So in all the infinite wisdom of my players, well the rogue who started all this has 8 WIS... Anyways, it all started when the rogue decided he wanted to threaten a dragon, which the party advised him OOC was a bad idea... Regardless, he did it anyways, saying in so many words that he would creep back into the dragon's lair when it least expected it, steal most of its hoard, and sever its, ahem, "manlyhood" to be flesh-to-stoned and then used as a central peg in a hat rack, which he already had a few of because the rogue was infatuated with wide brimmed, feathered hats...

Anyways, this caused the wizard's player to speak up doubting the rogue's assumptions about draconic anatomy... Things began to get out of hand, but thankfully I was able to stall until the pizza arrived. The two players continued their debate throughout the meal, while everybody else tried to avoid getting pulled into the discussion. Eventually, and i was wondering all this time when it would happen, they asked my opinion on the matter and I said that "the mighty interwebz shall tell us... tommorrow, or by next week at least."

So, help? (oh look there's smileys!) :smalleek:

[Deathkeeper]

Well, as OOTS (or Eragon, actually) will tell you, reptiles don't have the same anatomy, so with staying in forum etiquette let's just say that it's not something you can just sever, since those parts would be internal.

[vasharanpaladin]

Well, as OOTS (or Eragon, actually) will tell you, reptiles don't have the same anatomy, so with staying in forum etiquette let's just say that it's not something you can just sever, since those parts would be internal.

Not while the dragon's asleep, anyway. If the reptile is, in fact, male, you can reach in and pull the parts out (because, yes, those "internal" parts must become "external" in order to mate) and sever them that way, but doing so is almost guaranteed to wake up a creature that will not be enthused in the least to find a hairless ape manhandling its pink parts. :smallamused:

[Asteron]

Regardless, he did it anyways, saying in so many words that he would creep back into the dragon's lair when it least expected it, steal most of its hoard, and sever its, ahem, "manlyhood" to be flesh-to-stoned and then used as a central peg in a hat rack, which he already had a few of because the rogue was infatuated with wide brimmed, feathered hats...

That's quite disturbing...

Anywho, I'd think that dragons would be similar to reptiles in their reproductive systems, at least in dragon form. I'd start there.

If any one has a copy of the Draconimicon, they could check and see what it says (though I doubt it goes into that much detail...)

[vasharanpaladin]

If any one has a copy of the Draconimicon, they could check and see what it says (though I doubt it goes into that much detail...)

It does not. :smallcool:

[ddude987]

Not while the dragon's asleep, anyway. If the reptile is, in fact, male, you can reach in and pull the parts out (because, yes, those "internal" parts must become "external" in order to mate) and sever them that way, but doing so is almost guaranteed to wake up a creature that will not be enthused in the least to find a hairless ape manhandling its pink parts. :smallamused:

I second this answer. Of course the wizard could always cast some creation spell and tell the rogue the dragon was missing his "manhood" because he the pwerful wizard already got it :smallbiggrin:

[Eslin]

Thirded. I don't see why dragons wouldn't have a cloaca, though I guess it's up to DM interpretation. Only placental mammals have a penis, anatomy wise a dragon having one doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

[vasharanpaladin]

Only placental mammals have a penis, anatomy wise a dragon having one doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

This in turn would depend on the setting. I've seen a few in which dragons whelp rather than clutch. They almost never spawn, so some means of getting genetic material into the female is required... and, for the record, "penis" is still acceptable shorthand for the retractable bits male reptiles have.

EDIT: According to the Draconomicon, they're also endothermic. So unless significant magic screwery is involved it should be safe to assume that the male gonads are on the outside. :smalleek:

[Eslin]

This in turn would depend on the setting. I've seen a few in which dragons whelp rather than clutch. They almost never spawn, so some means of getting genetic material into the female is required... and, for the record, "penis" is still acceptable shorthand for the retractable bits male reptiles have.

I assume we're talking D&D here, which is egg based. And cool, didn't know that it was called a penis for male reptiles, I assumed there was a specific word for it.

[vasharanpaladin]

I assume we're talking D&D here, which is egg based. And cool, didn't know that it was called a penis for male reptiles, I assumed there was a specific word for it.

Again, setting-based. The DM ultimately decides how it works; dragons clutch by default otherwise. :smallcool:

[Spuddles]

Thirded. I don't see why dragons wouldn't have a cloaca, though I guess it's up to DM interpretation. Only placental mammals have a penis, anatomy wise a dragon having one doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

This is 100% false. Penises can be found in virtually all groups of animals- the barnacle has the longest penis to body ratio, ducks have corkscrew penises for navigating the inside of lady ducks, echidnas have 3 headed penises. Insects use a lock and key mechanism of genitalia, and changes in penis structure can drive speciation. In fact, most arthropod taxonomy on a species scale looks at genital structure for this reason. Bed bug females lack a genital pore.
Males of the species inseminate females by penetrating their body and stabbing their way to victory. Some snails have harpoon like penises called "love darts" that they fire into each other while mating. The darts are left behind and increase the chance of fertilization.

even bacteria have sex, which they do by forming sex piluses for exchanging genetic material.

[Raven777]

This whole post is entirely more information than what I should reasonably learn about non-human genitalia for a given day.

[Marnath]

EDIT: According to the Draconomicon, they're also endothermic. So unless significant magic screwery is involved it should be safe to assume that the male gonads are on the outside. :smalleek:

True dragons can exist comfortably in any environment that Endure Elements would protect you in.

"True dragons have superb internal temperature regulation and seldom suffer from the effects of excessive heat or cold."

So I guess they're insulated in there.

[vasharanpaladin]

This whole post is entirely more information than what I should reasonably learn about non-human genitalia for a given day.

You're welcome! :smalltongue:

[hymer]

@ Spuddles: If I hadn't watched QI too, I'd be somewhat suspicious at your vast knowledge of non-human genitalia. I'm just saying that to show I got your back. :smallbiggrin:

[Pally din]

Sure a dragon has an armored part, but how is the thief getting all the way back into where the dragon is, touching the dragon resting on rock and gold, lifting the dragon, stretching the dragon, determining if the dragon is real or an illusion, not waking the dragon during any of this long process for which several spells and items with said spells automaticaly alert the dragon not to mention the traps along the way, cutting the dragon, and surviving dragon wrath at any of the above steps, not to mention divination spells. Now if the dragon is very young, and the thief is way above its CR, then maybe this thief can pull off an epic tale, but otherwise any reasonable thief versus dragon encounter ends with roast thief.

[Ashtagon]

Thirded. I don't see why dragons wouldn't have a cloaca, though I guess it's up to DM interpretation. Only placental mammals have a penis, anatomy wise a dragon having one doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

If dragonborn can have breasts, I don't see why dragons can't have other bits of mammalian anatomy.

[Spuddles]

Dragons aren't even tetrapods. They have 6 limbs. That means that the most recent common ancestor between mammals and dragons is a lobe finned fish, not a reptile.

Somewhere at the lobefinned fish/amphibian split, dragons evolved as a totally different linneage. They then evolved alongside of amphibia, amphibia diversified into reptilia/aves and mammalia.

This is of course assuming that gain of limb events is extremely conserved and rare, so parsimonious phylogenies minimize limb evolution. It being D&D of course, it's unlikely that gain of extra limbs is all that uncommon. RL dragons would likely have had an anterior hox cluster duplication that repeated a set of fins on the back. Those fins then evolved into wings while the rest of the fins became legs.


Source: I'm a level 4 biologist


If dragonborn can have breasts, I don't see why dragons can't have other bits of mammalian anatomy.

I get your point, but the penis is a very old and general structure! Older than mammals, for sure.

[Waker]

Given that dragons are scaley, endothermic creatures, it might make sense that the nearest comparison to anatomy would be dinosaurs rather than reptiles. So take a peek at the theorized structure for dinosaur genitalia for a visual.

[Cog]

Dragons aren't even tetrapods. They have 6 limbs. That means that the most recent common ancestor between mammals and dragons is a lobe finned fish, not a reptile.
That implies such a distant common ancestor, but it does not mean it, even if dragons could be assumed to be purely a result of evolution - which, considering that DnD is a fantasy game and not a science fiction one, is a pretty weak assumption in the first place.

[Gildedragon]

Limb gaining events oughtn't be that rare in D&Dland, we got centaurs giralions pegasi lamasus thrikeens...

[Spuddles]

Given that dragons are scaley, endothermic creatures, it might make sense that the nearest comparison to anatomy would be dinosaurs rather than reptiles. So take a peek at the theorized structure for dinosaur genitalia for a visual.

Scales and endothermia aren't very useful characteristics when looking at high level phylogenies. Maybe endothermia, but that has evolved independently in swordfish, theropods, some of dinosauria, and synapsida. Scales are evolved and lost all over the place, at the order & family level. I suspect using those sorts of morphological traits would lead to gross paraphyly. The word I am looking for is homoplasy. Scales and endothermia, at a high taxonomic level, are homoplasic traits. Vertebrate limb evolution is not.

It would be better to examine their sexual behavior rather than compararive morphologies, seeing as how evolution of genital structure is highly convergent (ie, analogous, not homologous, like octopus eyes and human eyes).

For instance, are female dragons highly promiscuous? That would likely lead to males having a larger testicle to body mass ratio or barbed or spined penises.

How choosey are females? How rapey are males? The stronger inter-sex competition is, the bigger and gnarlier we can expect the penis.

Personally, I suspect dragons have relatively small penises and testicles, as the male tries to attract a female with shinies, not coerce her like a rapist duck. The young also need a very long time to be raised, which suggests a high degree of s least social monogamy. Social monogamy isn't very strongly related with sexual monogamy, however.


That implies such a distant common ancestor, but it does not mean it, even if dragons could be assumed to be purely a result of evolution - which, considering that DnD is a fantasy game and not a science fiction one, is a pretty weak assumption in the first place.

Oh sure, but most lore puts dinosaurs at the beginning of creation. It's not a large stretch to assume that dragons are an ancient clade.

[Amnestic]

If dragonborn can have breasts, I don't see why dragons can't have other bits of mammalian anatomy.

Well Dragonborn are (generally) humanoids who became all dragon-scaley after breast development has already occurred. They've got this whole ritual thing and everything, so it makes a certain degree of sense that the lumps would remain (as much sense as "magic ritual to make me part dragon" makes any sense).

Dragons themselves though...they're dragons through and through. We can't use Dragonborn to create a standard for Dragon anatomy.

[BWR]

Are we really talking about evolution in a setting which, in all likelihood, the world has not existed for more than 50 000 years?
Yes, some worlds may have had more Earth-like origins at some point, but most are good old-fashioned creationism, with creatures being made as is and little or no deviation from their original form.

Without any official ruling on the subject, and as amusing as this discussion is, I'd just look at dragon artwork. How many of them have any sort of genitalia?
Leaving aside the artistic neutering of nude animals to make them acceptable to prevailing attitudes towards sex, I would assume that most dragons, being described as rather repitlian, have sexual organs equivalent to reptiles.

[vasharanpaladin]

For instance, are female dragons highly promiscuous?

Dragons are, in fact, second only to humans in how much of the Monster Manual they'll sleep with. :smallamused:

[Jeff the Green]

Dragons are, in fact, second only to humans in how much of the Monster Manual they'll sleep with. :smallamused:

Pretty sure they beat us out. When was the last time you heard of a half-human black pudding?

[Arcanist]

Pretty sure they beat us out. When was the last time you heard of a half-human black pudding?

I'm done. This comment got me.

http://media.tumblr.com/add86e7df202e73a12ff162a42988adf/tumblr_inline_mh8wwnJZiG1rbw4b5.jpg

[Marnath]

Dragons are, in fact, second only to humans in how much of the Monster Manual they'll sleep with. :smallamused:

They use shapechange magic for most of that though. In their natural forms, they do usually practice serial monogamy, or sometimes two or three partners at a time although that is sort of represented as a status thing from being older and more powerful than your mates.

[Jigokuro]

I'd just look at dragon artwork. How many of them have any sort of genitalia?

I think you forgot your blue text, unless you're just new to the internet. :smallwink:/:smallannoyed:/:smalleek:
(In which case forget I said anything, for your own good.)

As to the original question: Well, there has to be something there, dragons do breed after all, but it is fairly obviously internal when, uh, at rest. So unless the rogue has can somehow arouse the dragon without rousing the dragon he is not succeeding in his quest. How to do that? No idea; sounds more like wizard territory - illusory dream manipulation comes to mind.
Oh how I wish it hadn't.:smallfrown:

[Ashtagon]

On the whole tetrapod vs. hexapod evolution thing...

Here are a few tetrapods ("four limbed" creatures) for you:


Reptile:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Coast_Garter_Snake.jpg/640px-Coast_Garter_Snake.jpg

Caecilian (Amphibian):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Dermophis_mexicanus.jpg

Eel (Lobed Fish):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Monopterus_albus_4.jpg

Janjucetus (early cetacean):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Janjucetus_BW.jpg


Given that limb loss is a ridiculously common thing to have evolved, across multiple branches of the tetrapod family, it almost seems more reasonable to suppose that in D&D-land, the base family is not tetrapods at all, but hexapods. And most creatures just happened to have lost two of those limbs. Dragons, pegasi, and so forth simply represent more basal forms in the evolutionary tree. They didn't gain limbs; we lost them.

[molten_dragon]

So in all the infinite wisdom of my players, well the rogue who started all this has 8 WIS... Anyways, it all started when the rogue decided he wanted to threaten a dragon, which the party advised him OOC was a bad idea... Regardless, he did it anyways, saying in so many words that he would creep back into the dragon's lair when it least expected it, steal most of its hoard, and sever its, ahem, "manlyhood" to be flesh-to-stoned and then used as a central peg in a hat rack, which he already had a few of because the rogue was infatuated with wide brimmed, feathered hats...

Anyways, this caused the wizard's player to speak up doubting the rogue's assumptions about draconic anatomy... Things began to get out of hand, but thankfully I was able to stall until the pizza arrived. The two players continued their debate throughout the meal, while everybody else tried to avoid getting pulled into the discussion. Eventually, and i was wondering all this time when it would happen, they asked my opinion on the matter and I said that "the mighty interwebz shall tell us... tommorrow, or by next week at least."

So, help? (oh look there's smileys!) :smalleek:

Well, we can't know for sure since dragons don't exist, but if we assume that their biology is similar to avian or reptilian biology, based on the fact that they look kind of like lizards or birds, then they most likely don't have external genitalia.

[SiuiS]

This whole post is entirely more information than what I should reasonably learn about non-human genitalia for a given day.

And none of it even addresses the question! Scandalous.


If dragonborn can have breasts, I don't see why dragons can't have other bits of mammalian anatomy.

Dragonborn adopt magical psoriasis and are not actually draconic.
Unless the have the [Dragon] type. Then they are draconic.


Dragons are, in fact, second only to humans in how much of the Monster Manual they'll sleep with. :smallamused:

It's true!


Pretty sure they beat us out. When was the last time you heard of a half-human black pudding?

If you ever watch the show 1,000 ways to die and actually count how many are sex-related, you will find that viability of offspring – or of survival! – is not a consideration when deciding wether or not to "tap dat".

The ooze puppet spell exists for a reason, is all I'm saying.

[Sith_Happens]

The ooze puppet spell exists for a reason, is all I'm saying.

http://dc483.4shared.com/img/JYa1N33K/s3/Nothing_to_do_here.png

[Zombulian]

This is 100% false. Penises can be found in virtually all groups of animals- the barnacle has the longest penis to body ratio, ducks have corkscrew penises for navigating the inside of lady ducks, echidnas have 3 headed penises. Insects use a lock and key mechanism of genitalia, and changes in penis structure can drive speciation. In fact, most arthropod taxonomy on a species scale looks at genital structure for this reason. Bed bug females lack a genital pore.
Males of the species inseminate females by penetrating their body and stabbing their way to victory. Some snails have harpoon like penises called "love darts" that they fire into each other while mating. The darts are left behind and increase the chance of fertilization.

even bacteria have sex, which they do by forming sex piluses for exchanging genetic material.

Thank you for saying this so I didn't have to. All I had was the "I'm pretty sure that's not right" feeling, but no evidence except for ducks.

Also, bedbug females don't lack a genital pore, bedbug makes are just jerks. I'm not even kidding.

[Jeff the Green]

On the whole tetrapod vs. hexapod evolution thing...

Here are a few tetrapods ("four limbed" creatures) for you:


Reptile:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Coast_Garter_Snake.jpg/640px-Coast_Garter_Snake.jpg

Caecilian (Amphibian):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Dermophis_mexicanus.jpg

Eel (Lobed Fish):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Monopterus_albus_4.jpg

Janjucetus (early cetacean):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Janjucetus_BW.jpg


Given that limb loss is a ridiculously common thing to have evolved, across multiple branches of the tetrapod family, it almost seems more reasonable to suppose that in D&D-land, the base family is not tetrapods at all, but hexapods. And most creatures just happened to have lost two of those limbs. Dragons, pegasi, and so forth simply represent more basal forms in the evolutionary tree. They didn't gain limbs; we lost them.

Eh, half-dragons et al. pretty much disprove evolution by natural selection and common descent anyway.

[Waker]

Eh, half-dragons et al. pretty much disprove evolution by natural selection and common descent anyway.

Are you saying that we should just accept "A dragon did it" followed by a knowing wink?