Best and worst strip(s) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

137beth

2013-04-13, 12:24 AM

What is your most liked and disliked strip? Mine:

Best:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html

Worst:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html
So, I'm guessing you don't like when Belkar kills people, huh:smalltongue:

The best strip is the first one.

The worst one will be the last one
Eh, I never cared that much for strip #1...

Worst is easily this, I don't like that trope nor ignoring D&D magic rules.
I have to second Kish and ask: what "trope"?
Also, developing your own spells is part of the D&D magic rules, and there's nothing against developing a spell which is dismissible. For that matter, if you don't like custom-developed spells, how is 830 your favorite, when it centers around revealing a completely homebrewed nonepic ritual which handles a feature of the universe not in the D&D magic rules:smallconfused:

Mike Havran

2013-04-13, 05:23 AM

If you think that's the worst... have you not read the bonus material in the books?

Yes I think that's the worst, period.

Szarrukin

2013-04-13, 06:12 AM

VanaGalen

2013-04-13, 06:46 AM

Best stips for me: the most touching (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), the funniest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), the cutest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html), the happiest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).

Worst strips (meaning I wish the story could go the other way because it was too sad) are here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html).

The worst strip I just wish it never happened because it was boring... well, probably most of the Roy's afterlife arc. Also I didn't like the shopping before starmetal quest - this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html) and next one.

Craft (Cheese)

2013-04-13, 07:01 AM

If by "worst" you mean "one I enjoyed reading the least", then it's definitely this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html). I rolled my eyes and said to myself "Oh god, this is gonna be one of *those* webcomics." I almost quit reading the comic altogether right there, but thankfully, for some reason I pressed on.

Domino Quartz

2013-04-13, 07:14 AM

Worst: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html
I really cannot understand how anyone can find this funny. And frankly, I've never liked Belkar.

Out of curiosity, what gave you the impression that it was meant to be funny?
Anyway, this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) is definitely my favourite. O-Chul proves he is a true badass by taking a disintegrate to the face without even flinching, and then smoothly removing his opponent's ability to continue attacking.
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) is my least favourite - not because it's badly written, or anything, but because of how it tugs at the heartstrings. I don't like having my heartstrings tugged.

Copper

2013-04-13, 07:23 AM

I'm going to have to say that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html) was the best strip. The evil Vaarsuvius arc is not only one of he most emotionally stirring storylines in OOTS, but in any comic I've ever read.

Worst may be this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0686.html). I was not a fan of any of the strips in the desert and this one was unfunny and unnecessary.

Szarrukin

2013-04-13, 07:23 AM

Out of curiosity, what gave you the impression that it was meant to be funny?

Because it was the part of running kobold gag? But OK, "funny" was a bad word. But I've noticed, that a lot of people here seems to think, that it was justified.

Belkar<3

2013-04-13, 07:57 AM

WoLong

2013-04-13, 08:15 AM

Best (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0177.html)
Best (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html)

'Curses and blasphemies!'

Worst (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html)
The second half of that strip, anyways. Not because it was poorly written, but because it made me sick to my stomach as I was eating.

oppyu

2013-04-13, 08:19 AM

Best:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0283.html - Aww, Roy really does care about Elan!
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html - Roy's second best moment in the strip.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0587.html - "Why should I care how many people I have to kill? I can just make MORE in my TUMMY!"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html and
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html - "This - and no less - is the price of threatening my family."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html - Haley's a stone-cold badarse.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html - Roy's best moment in the strip.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html - Redcloak's badarse, Tsukiko is actually sympathetic.

Worst:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html - Turns out all of the dudes in the Order, Durkon included, are sad and pathetic perverts.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html - Sure, there's only one definitively female pc here. Let's silence her for a couple of hundred strips.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html - Belkar needs to die soon.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html - Seriously, can that sexist little prick just die already?

Olinser

2013-04-13, 08:33 AM

Yes I think that's the worst, period.

So... you think her killing somebody that has tried half a dozen times to kill her in the past day, and will continue to try to kill her, makes it somehow worse than Belkar's random homicides of innocent passerby?

Mike Havran

2013-04-13, 08:59 AM

So... you think her killing somebody that has tried half a dozen times to kill her in the past day, and will continue to try to kill her, makes it somehow worse than Belkar's random homicides of innocent passerby?

Sure, relatively speaking. Because standards for supposedly "Good" heroine in a happy relationship lie somewhere else than standards for Evil psychopath that primarily functions as a black comedy source.

Kish

2013-04-13, 09:01 AM

You realize that that attitude constitutes a reward for being evil and a punishment for being good.

Not that you need to justify disliking any strip, of course.

Werbaer

2013-04-13, 09:51 AM

Best: March to War (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html)

Craft (Cheese)

2013-04-13, 09:54 AM

So... you think her killing somebody that has tried half a dozen times to kill her in the past day, and will continue to try to kill her, makes it somehow worse than Belkar's random homicides of innocent passerby?

In a way, yes. Belkar's homicides, while certainly not morally justifiable, are at least written to be entertaining.

Haley's killing of Crystal is in-character and makes a certain amount of sense, but I still wasn't thrilled by the scene because of its awkward placement within the pacing of the story and how it just wasn't not very entertaining to read. It feels like a short aside thrown in as a quick afterthought. Compare this scene with the setup and payoff of, say, Belkar's murder of the Oracle.

Chad30

2013-04-13, 10:24 AM

Best: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html
because it's most epic comic strip I've ever seen. Also, I love how Rich created paladins in OOTS - not just "another lawful stupid zealots to make fun of them". Well, except Miko of course, but even she is likeable for me.

Worst: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html
I really cannot understand how anyone can find this funny. And frankly, I've never liked Belkar.

As usual, sorry for my "engrish"

I don't like what they did to that Kobold either. I do find Belkar funny sometimes, but sometimes he does go too far. Of course he is the evil team mate. Not that V can't be dark either. I liked Belkar better when he was playing pranks with Elan. Stinky Roy and Great Cleavage.

Worst:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html - Turns out all of the dudes in the Order, Durkon included, are sad and pathetic perverts.

I was rather disappointed with Durkon, and maybe a little at Roy. Not too surprised at the other two. Contrary to what some sites may suggest, not all men are perverts.

Olinser

2013-04-13, 10:35 AM

In a way, yes. Belkar's homicides, while certainly not morally justifiable, are at least written to be entertaining.

Haley's killing of Crystal is in-character and makes a certain amount of sense, but I still wasn't thrilled by the scene because of its awkward placement within the pacing of the story and how it just wasn't not very entertaining to read. It feels like a short aside thrown in as a quick afterthought. Compare this scene with the setup and payoff of, say, Belkar's murder of the Oracle.

That's why I specifically asked if he had read the strips in the books.

Afterwards, the Giant acknowledged that when he cut out the retrieval of Roy's body from Grubwiggler's, he forgot that the strips of Bozzok having Crystal continue to try and kill Haley and make it look like an accident, despite their 'agreement', were in those strips.

There was quite a bit of buildup there, and the only reason Haley hadn't killed her sooner was because she needed them to help get Roy's body back.

That was Haley telling them she'd finally had enough, and that if they weren't going to honor their end of the deal, neither was she.

I don't disagree the pacing is a bit off as a consequence of it - but that's why the Giant included them in the books.

Rakoa

2013-04-13, 10:35 AM

I was rather disappointed with Durkon, and maybe a little at Roy. Not too surprised at the other two. Contrary to what some sites may suggest, not all men are perverts.

You're right, I never noticed that before, but it is totally out of character for Durkon. Roy not so much, I believe his latent sexism has been around for awhile. But Durkon...

VanaGalen

2013-04-13, 11:13 AM

You're right, I never noticed that before, but it is totally out of character for Durkon. Roy not so much, I believe his latent sexism has been around for awhile. But Durkon...

I also think it's a bit out of character for Durkon, especially compared to his lecture to Julia later in Cliffport. However, he isn't as bad as Roy - Durkon has the same rank in the group as Haley, or even is her subordinate as Haley is second in command. But such behavior as team leader is unacceptable.

Mike Havran

2013-04-13, 11:40 AM

You realize that that attitude constitutes a reward for being evil and a punishment for being good.

Not that you need to justify disliking any strip, of course.
I don't see it as a reward or punishment, but as a cost of getting the respective afterlife and/or story ending. One tolerates Belkar's actions because it's known that, on some level, he'll get some sort of a retribution. It's much harder to do it for a heroine who is supposed to live happily ever after the story ends.

That's why I specifically asked if he had read the strips in the books.

Afterwards, the Giant acknowledged that when he cut out the retrieval of Roy's body from Grubwiggler's, he forgot that the strips of Bozzok having Crystal continue to try and kill Haley and make it look like an accident, despite their 'agreement', were in those strips.

There was quite a bit of buildup there, and the only reason Haley hadn't killed her sooner was because she needed them to help get Roy's body back.

That was Haley telling them she'd finally had enough, and that if they weren't going to honor their end of the deal, neither was she.

I don't disagree the pacing is a bit off as a consequence of it - but that's why the Giant included them in the books.
No I didn't read them, but if there wasn't anything more in those bonus strips than "Crystal tried to kill Haley and kicked a thousand puppies in the process" then it matters not, because the reasons why I dislike the murder have nothing to do with Crystal's (im)morality.

martianmister

2013-04-13, 12:04 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html - Turns out all of the dudes in the Order, Durkon included, are sad and pathetic perverts.

You're right, I never noticed that before, but it is totally out of character for Durkon. Roy not so much, I believe his latent sexism has been around for awhile. But Durkon...

However, he isn't as bad as Roy

Huh? But Roy, literally, did nothing. :smallconfused:

Chad30

2013-04-13, 12:23 PM

You're right. He didn't say anything about what the other boys were doing.

Craft (Cheese)

2013-04-13, 09:38 PM

That's why I specifically asked if he had read the strips in the books.

Afterwards, the Giant acknowledged that when he cut out the retrieval of Roy's body from Grubwiggler's, he forgot that the strips of Bozzok having Crystal continue to try and kill Haley and make it look like an accident, despite their 'agreement', were in those strips.

There was quite a bit of buildup there, and the only reason Haley hadn't killed her sooner was because she needed them to help get Roy's body back.

That was Haley telling them she'd finally had enough, and that if they weren't going to honor their end of the deal, neither was she.

I don't disagree the pacing is a bit off as a consequence of it - but that's why the Giant included them in the books.

No, I haven't read any of the bonus strips from the books. From what you say, it sounds like the context from the bonus strips makes Haley's killing of Crystal much better, but I'll have to defer judgement of that until I can actually get my hands on a copy to judge for myself.

Amphiox

2013-04-13, 11:31 PM

You're right. He didn't say anything about what the other boys were doing.

His expression doesn't change throughout. It looks like he's been stunned speechless.

I think it reflects poorly a bit on his leadership ability not to have said anything, but not much else.

SaintRidley

2013-04-14, 12:02 AM

Easily my favorite. Kazumi is excellent. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0587.html)

If by "worst" you mean "one I enjoyed reading the least", then it's definitely this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html). I rolled my eyes and said to myself "Oh god, this is gonna be one of *those* webcomics." I almost quit reading the comic altogether right there, but thankfully, for some reason I pressed on.

Some definite early comic weirdness there, and I am glad that Rich has become more aware and less inclined to do things like that than he was at that time.

AngryHobbit

2013-04-14, 04:01 AM

Worst:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html - worst early strip
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html - not funny
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html - I hate that elven commander more than some people hate Miko. Him imploding was truly satisfying.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html - Poor Yukyuk :smalleek:
Best:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html - best early strip
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html - actually, anything Thog related. I love that evil retard.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html - Crowning moment of badass
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html - I love Xykon's lecture to Darth Vaarsuvius.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html - This, and when he crushes the resistance, are defining moments that he is as can be almost as evil as our favorite skeleton.

Chad30

2013-04-14, 11:19 AM

His expression doesn't change throughout. It looks like he's been stunned speechless.

I think it reflects poorly a bit on his leadership ability not to have said anything, but not much else.

Yeah, maybe you're right. I'll give him a pass. Durkon's a dirty old man, though. He even said take 20 in the early strip mentioned above with Hailey's clothes loosening up.

I agree with AngryHobbit on most of those. I still don't think the bouncy ball one was good. He definitely had a CMoB when he fought V, though. I agree that you only really have power when it's yours.

Tiiba

2013-04-14, 12:49 PM

This one is, was and will be the best ever. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0317.html) Explosive Runes were always hilarious.

If I have to choose a bad one, that's harder. But I guess this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0711.html) one is the worst of an almost perfect lot.

Chad30

2013-04-14, 01:21 PM

I like the explosive runes gag. I also liked when he used it against Xykon too.

Mr.Rictus

2013-04-14, 01:31 PM

Best one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), mostly because I'm a sucker for evil monologues and smart plans.
Sorta, I guess (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html), just because I didn't like Tsukiko and her attitude, (still, she got a sad end) and I didn't get the joke the first time I read it, though for the record, I don't particularly like the whole "worst strip" thing: like Xykon says "they can't all be winners", and "worst" implies needless criticism.

Also, whoa, reading some comments, you are being way too harsh on Durkon. So basically a single, lonely, far from home, loyal dwarf that is on a quest that may easily lead to his death, can't even enjoy a cute girl jumping up and down for a few seconds? He's already had a rough lot in life, he is now supposed to not think of sex at all too?

Chad30

2013-04-14, 01:52 PM

Because he's all about duty, is likely much older than her, and lechery doesn't look good for who is supposed to be the wise mentor of the group.

Thinking is one thing, but approving is another.

Personally I'm not trying to say he's dispicable. I'm just saying I would expect better of him.

Sniffnoy

2013-04-14, 02:03 PM

Best... oh, there are so many...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html -- "If anyone has to pee before we get started, now's the time."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0301.html -- "Promise me... that you'll... you'll dispose of my body in the waste receptacles... conveniently located by the theater exits..."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0332.html -- Don't do your thinking inside the memory charm...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html -- "I actually have words left? Then allow me to say"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html -- "Sure thing, Lord Shojo! TELEPORT!"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html -- "It appears... not everyone... agrees with your... analysis."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html -- "Shut up, Dad."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html -- "Hello? Mommy?"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html -- "Xykon is a valuable ally, but he is NOT a goblin."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html -- The memory charm strikes again.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html -- "Well that's a stupid rule and they should change it!" "They did!"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0612.html -- "Maybe we ought to start calling you... 'Brainy Pete'."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html -- "Because this whole 'sell your soul' thing? 100% your idea."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html -- "And if we were BOTH platoons, we could get 50 simultaneous--"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html -- "Then what am I?" "A good man."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html -- "Though if you have any spells that will increase my range with a thrown object, now would be a good time to cast them."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html -- "Guess what spell I cast before giving this to the bird."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html -- "Who, Jirix? He's dead." "THEN RAISE HIM! At least he had the decency to shout a warning!"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html -- "Perhaps... perhaps we do not know everything we ought to regarding the task we are undertaking."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html -- "No. The etymologies are unrelated."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html -- "Oh, heavens! I cannot believe I violated the detailed rules and regulations we agreed on before beginning this contest! We must consult the referee for an appropriate penalty regarding my heinous transgression!"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html -- "THAT'S how I use my Intelligence score in combat, DUMBASS!"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html -- "Last one left, set yourself on fire. In the fireplace, please."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html -- "What? Does that count? I guess that counts."

And, yeah, I have to agree with the people saying the worst are probably #35 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html) and #123 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html). Maybe also #1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html); the joke just... isn't funny.

MReav

2013-04-14, 02:07 PM

Best. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) Love the way it plays out.

Worst. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0226.html) I hate Whose On First style jokes. With a passion.

Kish

2013-04-14, 02:09 PM

is likely much older than her
Just to say, at 55, Durkon is a very young dwarf.

Chad30

2013-04-14, 02:46 PM

Only 55, huh? I didn't know what his exact age was, but generally dwarves and elves aren't below a century or two.

PhantomDennis

2013-04-14, 04:59 PM

Water_Bear

2013-04-14, 05:24 PM

Best, there're a lot of them but I'd have to say pretty much any time Xykon cuts loose and shows us why he's the main villain.

In the main comic, that would be 448 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), with the entire Darth V fight and his followup speech with Redcloak tied at second place.

In Start of Darkness;
His fight with Dorukan and his subsequent epic put-down of Redcloak.

(It's funny, I really love Redcloak as a character but it seems like I really enjoy seeing him taken down a peg.)

As for Worst... I'd have to go with Roy's Afterlife Shenanigans, in their entirety. There were some good jokes in there, but it was mostly just a slog. There's a reason Dante's Paradiso and Paradise Regained were flops; nobody cares if fictional people are having fun if they aren't growing or having some kind of meaningful conflict. "Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens" indeed.

Chad30

2013-04-14, 05:38 PM

It's possible the strips you choose say more about you than vice versa. Best suggest your an Elan/Haley shipper Worst: You don't like darker aspects of Belkar and/or Mr. Scruffy although #780 was a little grotesque for my taste. However #539 did truly illustrate the dynamics of the three travekers and how each character's moral compass truly operated.

I'm an Elan/Haley shipper too, though Elan is a player. He knows it's the protagonist's job to sleep with all the hot ladies.

JackRackham

2013-04-14, 05:54 PM

What is your most liked and disliked strip? Mine:

Worst:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html

Those were both awesome strips!

EDIT: In fact, every strip I've seen linked so far was awesome! I think the worst ones, might really just be the least memorable. The ones you all listed were really well done.

Souju

2013-04-14, 05:54 PM

every single one involved in this particular mini-arc (between Xykon trouncing V and "WHO STOLE MY KILLS?!") is my favorite, but this one sticks out. That one comic is the culmination of all of Redcloak's failings catching up to him.
No more spells. No more goblin. ...No more lich, then.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html
Energizer Paladin ftw.

*EDIT* Oh and for worst? The closing statements. I can't stand hideous walls of text. Murder, implosions, improper use of a kobold...fine.
expogab that takes longer to read than some entire mini-arcs? Pass.

Chad30

2013-04-14, 06:35 PM

Yes, hideous walls of text. The amount of text is what kept me from diving into this comic in the first place. I got used to it because it's worth it 99% of the time, though.

JackRackham

2013-04-14, 06:53 PM

Good God. If the occasional speech bubble bothers you, what's your take on books!?

Chad30

2013-04-14, 07:02 PM

That's the thing. Books I expect to be wordy. Comics I don't. At the time I first found this comic, I was used to comics not having a whole lot of dialogue, or story for that matter. something more akin to the Sunday newspaper comic.

Now obviously having more dialogue allows for a better story, and I've gotten used to it. I just wasn't used to half or more of the comic to be filled with words.

It's just like how I eventually got used to books without pictures. Back when I read books a lot, eventually I started reading books with fewer and fewer pictures. It was something I eventually got used to, but at the start I was highly displeased.

oppyu

2013-04-14, 08:13 PM

I... think you're reading a bit too much into it. For one, I wouldn't say all the dudes in the Order are 'sad and pathetic perverts'. I mean, Roy just looks disturbed by the whole thing, and calling the others sad and pathetic for it seems... a bit of an overreaction. Sure, it's a bit perverted, but, er, I wouldn't call it pathetic. Surprising, yes, in Durkon's case, considering he'd probably have been as horrified as Roy, but Elan and Belkar? It doesn't seem too unexpected of them.

And if you think Haley was 'silenced' for being female, then you're defining her character by her gender, which I'm pretty sure is not what the author is doing. Haley was not 'silenced' because she was female, but rather for characteristics of her personality that are pretty independent of her gender.

And of all the times Belkar has killed, tormented, and hurt people in the worst possible ways, you choose the bit where he hogs the sandwiches to be distraught over? :smallconfused:
1: One of the tropes I absolutely hate the most in media is the idea that men are excused from acts of perversion, because they're men and they can't help being perpetually and uncontrollably horny. That's what seemed like what was happening with the forming of the leaning tower of sad heterosexual male desperation to listen to what they thought was Haley and V doing something dirty.

2: I don't think Haley was silenced for being a woman, I think she was silenced in the progression of a storyline which had the unfortunate effect of silencing the only female player character in the Order. That has as much to do with my... dislike of the Order's gender balance as much as the annoying cryptograms that followed for way too many strips.

3: It's not hogging the sandwiches, it's the cavalier disrespect for Jenny... I hated that whole subplot really, but the worst strip Belkar-wise ("I would, but I don't remember your name now") happens to be one of my favourite strips for Haley's unexpected awesomeness in dealing with Crystal. (Although, the fact that bonus strips revealed that Bozzok and Crystal started it kind of dampened it for me... my preferred interpretation was a 'Han shot first' kind of deal.)

PhantomDennis

2013-04-14, 08:13 PM

The best strip is the first one.

The worst one will be the last one :smallfurious:

I think this comes off differently than what you intended, as if the quality has streadily declined over the history strip.

In fact, the first one is far from the best one, as the characters are hardly developed and the puchline about the Charlie Brown-like character's daggers shrinking didn't make sense to a non-gamer.

Obviously, the strips have improved significantly since more character and storyline development have been added.

Olinser

2013-04-14, 08:21 PM

I think this comes off differently than what you intended, as if the quality has streadily declined over the history strip.

In fact, the first one is far from the best one, as the characters are hardly developed and the puchline about the Charlie Brown-like character's daggers shrinking didn't make sense to a non-gamer.

Obviously, the strips have improved significantly since more character and storyline development have been added.

Yeah... I meant it as the first was the best because without a first, the rest would not exist.

The last will be the worst because it means the OOTS will be over :smalleek:

Bulldog Psion

2013-04-14, 08:32 PM

Yeah... I meant it as the first was the best because without a first, the rest would not exist.

The last will be the worst because it means the OOTS will be over :smalleek:

I, at least, got that from the start, and I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment. :smallsmile:

Chad30

2013-04-14, 09:02 PM

I wonder what kind of endings Giant likes. Would he try to tie up all loose ends, or leave a few, and how happy the ending would be.

Souju

2013-04-14, 10:12 PM

Good God. If the occasional speech bubble bothers you, what's your take on books!?

It's not a speech bubble that bothers me, it's not books that bother me. It's the fact that there's literally nothing else in the panels except Celia, the lawyer, and a one panel gag about V's verbose attitude.
And yes it's also environment. Nothing, NOTHING in comics bothers me more than exposition telling me what I'd seeing in a panel. It made sense with the old style simplistic art styles, but there's really no excuse nowadays.
I just like to have something happening (either breaks in a long speech to describe the character's actions in a book, or multiple panels with sight gags for comics.) due to the way my brain works.
Even the story "The Grand Inquisitor" which was the titular Inquisitor grilling Jesus took moments to address expressions and scenery. A huge expopanel doesn't do that.

MeanMrsMustard

2013-04-15, 12:04 AM

I agree with Kish on the best strip (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html).
I was always frustrated with the Haley/Belkar/Celia bit of DStP, so I'll target this (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) unfortunate strip. Although the "tee-hee, Haley's being naughty" strips were pretty bad.

Koo Rehtorb

2013-04-15, 01:01 AM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html

This is the only one that really makes me cringe. Bad comic.

Edit - Though I never noticed before that Roy's totally not into it and is just getting dogpiled by the rest of the party. Nice touch, I guess.

Lombard

2013-04-15, 02:38 AM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html

The two of those kind of combine into my favorite strip. O-Chul is the first paladin I actually ever really liked.

Worst, who knows, something really boring and thus utterly forgettable probably.

Wootles

2013-04-15, 12:06 PM

The Giant has created many epic comics and a lot have been posted already. The one I miss however, is comic 379: Perform IS on the Aristocrat's Skill List (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html). Maybe it's not the most ambitious or artistically impressive of all his comics, but this one kept me laughing and rereading it for a good 15 minutes. :smallbiggrin: In contrast to some other readers, I love the dark humor and it's also the reason why Shojo, Belkar and to a lesser degree Roy and Xykon are my favorite characters.

sparkyinbozo

2013-04-15, 10:02 PM

The best strip, shadowing the new V with a classic gag: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html

The worst, being blah at its finest:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html

TheMac04

2013-04-15, 10:17 PM

If it's anyone consolation to anyone, I choose to believe that in #35 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html), Durkon isn't being a pervert. He has a blank expression on his face, and I think he genuinely thinks that Haley should take 20, and is unaware of the fact that everyone else just wants to see...y'know. So there's that.

Chad30

2013-04-15, 10:52 PM

I guess that's a valid interpretation.

That's a pretty awesome avatar you have there, by the way.

Sky_Schemer

2013-04-16, 01:30 AM

jere7my

2013-04-16, 01:38 AM

1: One of the tropes I absolutely hate the most in media is the idea that men are excused from acts of perversion, because they're men and they can't help being perpetually and uncontrollably horny. That's what seemed like what was happening with the forming of the leaning tower of sad heterosexual male desperation to listen to what they thought was Haley and V doing something dirty.

What the heck's wrong with acts of perversion, that anyone would need to be excused for them?

oppyu

2013-04-16, 03:25 AM

What the heck's wrong with acts of perversion, that anyone would need to be excused for them?
Do you need an explanation of what's wrong with a bunch of guys spying on a couple of women (or, one woman and one androgynous elf) in the hopes of eavesdropping on something intimate and private?

Unisus

2013-04-16, 05:20 AM

oppyu

2013-04-16, 05:31 AM

Actually they weren't eavesdropping at first - they overheard something that got their attention. While it may be not the ideal behavement, curiosity is a natural trait most people have. It would have been a completely other thing, had they tried to spy on their comrades in the way of "let's see what they are doing, maybe it could be fun for us"
They weren't eavesdropping at first, but Roy sure wasn't making much of an effort to say anything along the lines of "Hey, these walls are really thin, so if you're going to continue with your possibly lesbian interaction you should do so with the full knowledge that Elan, myself, Durkon and Belkar are listening eagerly and imagining you two doing unspeakable things with each other."

Olinser

2013-04-16, 08:54 AM

It's fun reading what other people like and dislike, especially when there are such opposite reactions to the same strips.

My favorite from an emotional fullfillment standpoint:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html
I was really touched by O'Chul's parting words, and the MiTD's reaction. This is one of the high points in the story, IMHO.

Some of my favorite "funny" strips come from the one-off gags and throwaway lines:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0151.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0175.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html (specifically, "30ft per round movement rate")
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0403.html ("Please view accompanying hand gesture")

And then there are strips where the strip's title really connects:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html "Your Ship Has Come In"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html "Trial of the Century"

Among my least favorites are ones where the rules are bent heavily to drive the plot and the situation feels contrived:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html

How are the rules bent heavily for the plot?

Symbol of Insanity does, in fact, function exactly like that. It is inscribed on a surface, affects all creatures in a 60 ft area around it, has no hit point limit, and a duration of 10 minutes per caster level.

Familicide is a Epic spell, and there were several threads that showed that a spell exactly like it could be cast at a reasonably attainable DC (especially for somebody with Darth V's insane caster level).

I would think you'd have much more a problem with http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html , where Roy lampshades that Miko only beat them because of the Power of Plot.

Sky_Schemer

2013-04-16, 09:23 AM

How are the rules bent heavily for the plot?

Symbol of Insanity does, in fact, function exactly like that. It is inscribed on a surface, affects all creatures in a 60 ft area around it, has no hit point limit, and a duration of 10 minutes per caster level.

The mechanics of Symbol of Insanity are exactly like those of Symbol of Death, and one of the limits on its mechanics are that "you can’t use a symbol of death offensively". I think the usage in this script violates the intent of the spell's description because it is used as an offensive weapon. While inscribing it on a mobile object and depositing it in another location is not explicitly forbidden, it's stretching the rule heavily. I, personally, would not allow this usage in a campaign that I was running. YMMV.

Familicide is a Epic spell, and there were several threads that showed that a spell exactly like it could be cast at a reasonably attainable DC (especially for somebody with Darth V's insane caster level).

I just don't like this spell because it is insanely powerful, and I don't buy the argument that "epic" stretches this far.

I would think you'd have much more a problem with http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html , where Roy lampshades that Miko only beat them because of the Power of Plot.

Eh. That was more of a gag than anything else, with a little fourth-wall breaking as a bonus. Durkon's use of Weather Control would be more what I'm thinking, though I like how Rich handled that one so it wouldn't make my "dislike" list. Plus, it had some wonderful artwork to elevate it.

Basho

2013-04-16, 09:25 AM

Best:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html
Right in the feels every time. I also love:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html

Worst:
(there aren't any "bad" ones)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html
is nothing new.

Also:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html
Is very funny!

Olinser

2013-04-16, 09:59 AM

The mechanics of Symbol of Insanity are exactly like those of Symbol of Death, and one of the limits on its mechanics are that "you can’t use a symbol of death offensively". I think the usage in this script violates the intent of the spell's description because it is used as an offensive weapon. While inscribing it on a mobile object and depositing it in another location is not explicitly forbidden, it's stretching the rule heavily. I, personally, would not allow this usage in a campaign that I was running. YMMV.

I just don't like this spell because it is insanely powerful, and I don't buy the argument that "epic" stretches this far.

Eh. That was more of a gag than anything else, with a little fourth-wall breaking as a bonus. Durkon's use of Weather Control would be more what I'm thinking, though I like how Rich handled that one so it wouldn't make my "dislike" list. Plus, it had some wonderful artwork to elevate it.

Symbols cannot be TRIGGERED offensively (and the specifics all deal with touch - they can't be put on a weapon to be triggered by hitting somebody, or put on an object to be triggered by throwing it or touching it to somebody). Presumably, Xykon set it to be triggered by somebody LOOKING at it (as opposed to touching or reading), and when he chucked the ball out and said, "Follow the bouncing ball", ONE of the hundreds of paladins looked at it, triggering it.

After that, the area of affect just moved around with the ball.

Completely within the rules.

For epic spells... have you ever really studied the Epic spell rules? You can craft literally almost any effect you can possibly think of. The only question is how high a DC it will have.

Sky_Schemer

2013-04-16, 10:04 AM

Symbols cannot be TRIGGERED offensively

That is not what the SRD says. The quote I provided is literal. You can’t use a symbol of death offensively. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm) The examples given about triggers are just that: examples. They are neither complete nor comprehensive. It is up to the GM to interpret. For me, the usage in this strip qualifies as an offensive weapon.

The point of this thread is not to rehash old arguments. You and I disagree on this one, and that's OK.

The only question is how high a DC it will have.

Same here.

cheesecake

2013-04-16, 10:06 AM

Any strip where belkar kills a random person is my favorite. I love that little crazy son of a gun.

I am not going to look for them, but I dislike the entire set of strips where roy is featured in 'heaven' I dislike Roy, and really disliked when it just focused on him.

He is dead and still thinks the world revolves around him and his quest. Even though Haley is helping people that are being killed and tortured in Azure city. And the rest of OOTS is trying to save a fleet of boats, filled with civilians from Azure city.

Angel Bob

2013-04-16, 10:12 AM

Worst is probably this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html. It might have been a little funny at first, but it goes on too long. I didn't enjoy much of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, honestly. Not dark or serious enough for my tastes.

Best is, as others have stated, much more difficult to place. I'm one of those guys who generally prefers the villains to the heroes, so any post-Cerebus strip with Xykon is up my alley (such as the infamous bouncing ball). I also adored the fall of the Resistance and Tsukiko's death. Malack is also pretty awesome.

If I were forced to pick one, though, it would be this one: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html. A well-written death is always enjoyable for me. It really drives home the danger the main characters face on a daily basis.

JackRose

2013-04-16, 10:37 AM

I was rather disappointed with Durkon, and maybe a little at Roy. Not too surprised at the other two. Contrary to what some sites may suggest, not all men are perverts.

I actually didn't read that as Roy eagerly listening with the others- see his facial expression throughout the whole thing, whereas the others only change to frowns when they tip over. I think it was more he got pinned in place by the others rushing over to press their ears to the wall.

Nothing on Durkon though.

Chad30

2013-04-16, 11:00 AM

I wasn't aware that bouncy balls existed in D&D. That's part of the problem I had with the above mentioned scene. Also getting rid of a bunch of dangerous paladins like that still felt anticlimactic. The only thing that saved it is what happened afterwards.

jere7my

2013-04-16, 11:01 AM

Kish

2013-04-16, 11:21 AM

See, you're using the word "unspeakable" there. Nothing they might have been doing was unspeakable—it was all healthy, happy sex. And if people are having happy sex in the next hotel room over, there's nothing wrong with finding that sexy.
If you value the functioning of all your limbs, I advise against announcing to anyone in the hotel lobby, "I found what I heard you doing in the next room over last night to be sexy."

JosephOrJoe

2013-04-16, 11:57 AM

A few favorites:

Rogues Gone Wild! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html) -- plus the first panel of the next strip. Playful and funny. Surprised so many people don't like it.

Words Fail (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html)

The First Step is a Doozy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html) -- great moment to use the flexibility of the webcomic

I Need a Hero (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html) -- Belkar at his best, showing why rogues aren't warriors

I See a Red Robe and I Want to Paint it Black (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html) -- first panel is just awesome

A Dish Best Served With +1d6 Cold Damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) -- really liked that Haley recognized that she couldn't just walk away and leave a threat behind her -- and she finally got a melee weapon

No real "worst" strips for me.

jere7my

2013-04-16, 12:00 PM

If you value the functioning of all your limbs, I advise against announcing to anyone in the hotel lobby, "I found what I heard you doing in the next room over last night to be sexy."

Well, sure. Eavesdropping is a little bit rude. I also wouldn't say to someone who just hung up their cell phone on the bus, "Hey, sorry about the divorce!" But people who are being noisy have to deal with the fact that other people might be able to hear them. Maybe it's because I live in a city, but there's only so much privacy you can expect.

The point here is that eavesdropping, while not precisely the noblest of activities, is something that just about everybody does, and it doesn't make someone "pathetic." It's the sort of thing we'd mock paladins for getting up in arms over. The message I'm seeing from oppyu is that having a healthy sexual response to accidental eavesdropping makes someone a pathetic pervert, which I think is pretty sex-negative attitude.

If you had two friends staying in the next hotel room, and they'd never evinced interest in each other, and you started hearing the sounds of spanking and giggling from that direction, you're going to tell me you wouldn't be curious enough to listen? The alternative, shouting "I can hear you!" strikes me as much ruder.

screwtape

2013-04-16, 12:24 PM

hm. There were a lot of really good strips. I'm going to say two of my favorites were these two:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html

Least favorite, probably hands down, this one.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html
Second to last panel makes this the all time lamest. F minus for story telling. You cannot get a hero out of trouble that way.

Unisus

2013-04-16, 12:52 PM

Actually it is not that uncommon that heroes are saved by unexpected events.

One of my favorite strips is oots0593 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html) - it has such a bitter-sweet feeling...

Sky_Schemer

2013-04-16, 12:58 PM

One of my favorite strips is oots0593 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0593.html) - it has such a bitter-sweet feeling...

I really like this one, too. The pull-back of the camera on the last panel is a really nice touch.

oppyu

2013-04-16, 04:51 PM

Well, sure. Eavesdropping is a little bit rude. I also wouldn't say to someone who just hung up their cell phone on the bus, "Hey, sorry about the divorce!" But people who are being noisy have to deal with the fact that other people might be able to hear them. Maybe it's because I live in a city, but there's only so much privacy you can expect.

The point here is that eavesdropping, while not precisely the noblest of activities, is something that just about everybody does, and it doesn't make someone "pathetic." It's the sort of thing we'd mock paladins for getting up in arms over. The message I'm seeing from oppyu is that having a healthy sexual response to accidental eavesdropping makes someone a pathetic pervert, which I think is pretty sex-negative attitude.

If you had two friends staying in the next hotel room, and they'd never evinced interest in each other, and you started hearing the sounds of spanking and giggling from that direction, you're going to tell me you wouldn't be curious enough to listen? The alternative, shouting "I can hear you!" strikes me as much ruder.
Um... actually, the "I can hear you!" strikes me as less rude. It's a matter of informed consent; if your friends (or random strangers) are going to go at it within earshot of other people, they should be made aware that people can hear them, so they can consent to having people listen in. The act of consciously choosing not to warn their friends is what turns Roy + company from 'healthy sexual attitude' to 'sad and pathetic perverts'.

For a similar example, consider the guy who, without the girl's knowledge, recorded their sexual congress with Skype and broadcast it to his mates. Argue about the joyfulness and positivity of sex all you want; that was a violation of her trust and an invasion of a moment she considered to be private. The same goes for creepy dudes pressing their ears against a wall to listen to you doing it. The next time you're intimate with a man, woman, or lubricated sock, imagine a bunch of people using your webcam or hidden cameras to spy on you, then consider the validity of 'sex is healthy and happy, so eavesdropping is ok'.

And on a different note, 'unspeakable' was not an indication of any deeply held conservative disapproval of sex. In that context, it's able to be substituted with 'naughty', 'sexy', 'dirty', etc. I used 'unspeakable' because I find that word inherently funny in it's melodrama. :smalltongue:

Olinser

2013-04-16, 05:02 PM

Um... actually, the "I can hear you!" strikes me as less rude. It's a matter of informed consent; if your friends (or random strangers) are going to go at it within earshot of other people, they should be made aware that people can hear them, so they can consent to having people listen in. The act of consciously choosing not to warn their friends is what turns Roy + company from 'healthy sexual attitude' to 'sad and pathetic perverts'.

For a similar example, consider the guy who, without the girl's knowledge, recorded their sexual congress with Skype and broadcast it to his mates. Argue about the joyfulness and positivity of sex all you want; that was a violation of her trust and an invasion of a moment she considered to be private. The same goes for creepy dudes pressing their ears against a wall to listen to you doing it. The next time you're intimate with a man, woman, or lubricated sock, imagine a bunch of people using your webcam or hidden cameras to spy on you, then consider the validity of 'sex is healthy and happy, so eavesdropping is ok'.

And on a different note, 'unspeakable' was not an indication of any deeply held conservative disapproval of sex. In that context, it's able to be substituted with 'naughty', 'sexy', 'dirty', etc. I used 'unspeakable' because I find that word inherently funny in it's melodrama. :smalltongue:

You're comparing apples to oranges here.

In one case, you have people sitting in a room that happen to overhear something they think is funny, and move to hear more. They didn't INTEND on listening to anything until they heard it by accident.

In the other case you have a prior decision to broadcast what you are doing to everybody.

Oh, and it is possible to remotely turn on webcams. I point my webcam at the ceiling when not in use for exactly that reason.

Unisus

2013-04-16, 05:14 PM

I think there's a big difference between enjoying something you come across by chance and recording/broadcasting something intimate. But that may be the pervert in me...

Actually, the behaviour in the "take 20"-strip and in the "eavesdropping"-strip is not perverse - it's primitive. There are worlds between.

oppyu

2013-04-16, 05:15 PM

You're comparing apples to oranges here.

In one case, you have people sitting in a room that happen to overhear something they think is funny, and move to hear more. They didn't INTEND on listening to anything until they heard it by accident.

In the other case you have a prior decision to broadcast what you are doing to everybody.

Oh, and it is possible to remotely turn on webcams. I point my webcam at the ceiling when not in use for exactly that reason.
Oh yeah, that's why I have blue-tac over my laptop camera. Having a camera on something I keep next to my bed is just... *shivers*.

And I don't think the two examples are that different. At some point, Roy and Elan decided that they were not going to warn Haley and V, and instead seemingly invited Durkon and Belkar to come and listen. Haley and V still weren't given a chance to consent to listeners, and had they been doing something unspeakable (see, I used that word again. I like that word. There is nothing wrong with that word.), it would definitely have been an invasion of privacy.

It may not have been premeditated, but they still made conscious decisions leading to the exact same end result. (Or, it would have been if Haley and V weren't examining Haley's gemstones).

Mike Havran

2013-04-16, 05:16 PM

I used 'unspeakable' because I find that word inherently funny in it's melodrama. :smalltongue:

To me, the words "unspeakable things" evoke stuff from Lovecraft's stories, so your comment about Roy saying that was pretty funny, on a rather different level :smallbiggrin:

Kish

2013-04-16, 05:35 PM

(see, I used that word again. I like that word. There is nothing wrong with that word.)
Well, let's test its accuracy.

SEX!

...I seem able to speak the word "sex." So it appears to not be unspeakable.

Ellye

2013-04-16, 06:13 PM

My favorite strip: #657 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html), Xykon's lecture in Power.

Least favorite strip: #001 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html). It's pretty bad, to be honest, and makes it hard to get people to start reading OotS.
Or #755 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html) if we discard early strips.

Qwernt

2013-04-16, 06:29 PM

I am surprised this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html) has not been mentioned yet... evilgasm.

Mr.Rictus

2013-04-16, 06:57 PM

They weren't eavesdropping at first, but Roy sure wasn't making much of an effort to say anything along the lines of "Hey, these walls are really thin, so if you're going to continue with your possibly lesbian interaction you should do so with the full knowledge that Elan, myself, Durkon and Belkar are listening eagerly and imagining you two doing unspeakable things with each other."

Yes, in my small apartment building, I am totally going to expressively tell my neighbors that I can hear them having sex every time they start. I also absolutely want them to tell me if we're being noisy as well.

Wait no, that's the exact OPPOSITE of what I want to do. Where I am, walls are thin, you need to be literally whispering to not be heard, of COURSE people can hear you. I'm not going to stop doing things I enjoy just because, sadly, my apartment walls aren't worth a damn. Nor am I gonna blame others for doing the same. However, I wouldn't particularly enjoy someone shouting they can hear us. That just makes it horrible and awkward. "I pretend you can't hear me, you pretend I can't hear you" is the policy.

Only time I'll get mad is if their sheganigans keep me up late at night^^

True, it wasn't the best attitude they could have, it was a little perverted. But it is, frankly, mostly harmless. Intentionally peeping is one thing. Overhearing, I give a pass.

Chad30

2013-04-16, 07:05 PM

I am surprised this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0197.html) has not been mentioned yet... evilgasm.

I forgot about that one. That was a great one too.

Seeing how thicker walls allow for more insulation, which cuts down on the heating and air conditioning, I would expect it be better in the long run to have thicker walls.

oppyu

2013-04-16, 07:54 PM

Yes, in my small apartment building, I am totally going to expressively tell my neighbors that I can hear them having sex every time they start. I also absolutely want them to tell me if we're being noisy as well.

Wait no, that's the exact OPPOSITE of what I want to do. Where I am, walls are thin, you need to be literally whispering to not be heard, of COURSE people can hear you. I'm not going to stop doing things I enjoy just because, sadly, my apartment walls aren't worth a damn. Nor am I gonna blame others for doing the same. However, I wouldn't particularly enjoy someone shouting they can hear us. That just makes it horrible and awkward. "I pretend you can't hear me, you pretend I can't hear you" is the policy.

Only time I'll get mad is if their sheganigans keep me up late at night^^

True, it wasn't the best attitude they could have, it was a little perverted. But it is, frankly, mostly harmless. Intentionally peeping is one thing. Overhearing, I give a pass.
... true on the loudly announcing thing. My defence there is that there should be a difference between announcing your presence to strangers/neighbours, and announcing your presence to friends/members of your adventuring party.

I maintain that there is a difference between innocently overhearing something, and intentionally pressing your ear against the door with three of your mates to get the best possible listening point. .

Augmental

2013-04-16, 08:56 PM

I maintain that there is a difference between innocently overhearing something, and intentionally pressing your ear against the door with three of your mates to get the best possible listening point.

It looks to me like Roy was just squished against the wall by Elan. He wasn't trying to eavesdrop.

Chad30

2013-04-17, 02:52 PM

I was just rereading 794, where Elan kisses Sabine to distract her, and noticed she had her legs wrapped around him. She was enjoying that even more than I thought she was before. Elan needs to look into getting an item that protects against level drainage. Sabine wouldn't stand a chance.

Sure she may get annoyed with him, but some people like it rough.

Honestly though, since he's officially going steady with Hayley, he's not likely top try to seduce girls anymore.

Squirrel_Token

2013-04-17, 05:42 PM

I think the title of the thread might more appropriately be "Favorite and least favorite strip(s)" since everyone has their own criteria, but here are mine :)

Favorite:
If we're going for the lulz, for whatever reason I really cracked up at the Lickmyorangeballshalfling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html)gag. And while someone else disliked it, I also liked the gag in this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html) :smallbiggrin:
If we're going for storytelling awesomeness (with the requisite dash of OotS humor), I'll agree with others that one of Elan's crowning moments of awesome (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0386.html) fits the bill :)

Least favorite:
It's a tie for me of arcs that I didn't particularly like. The "oh look Elan's an idiot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0558.html)" thing got a bit tired for me early on in DStP, after they'd gone through so much work to give him some character development in the previous book. Elan's my favorite character because he's the most purely GOOD character in the whole story, and while the jokes at his expense are still funny from time to time, seeing that level of nearly-willful stupidity on display in that arc was disappointing.
I also personally don't care for the comics with Blackwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html). While I understand the Giant needed a device to help V kind of work through his/her guilt over the whole Familicide thing, I just find Blackwing annoying.

Squirrel_Token

2013-04-17, 05:50 PM

Also, the people getting worked up over 35 and 123 should get over it. They're one-time gags early on in what eventually became an epic comic--these are not things worth getting worked up or "disappointed" in fictional characters over :smallcool:

Chad30

2013-04-17, 05:57 PM

I don't usually find Blackwing annoying, though he was when he kept rubbing V's mideeds in his face. No, selling his soul once doesn't mean that's going to be his shtick from now on.

Dire Lemming

2013-04-17, 07:09 PM

-SNIP-
No offense, but you seem to come across as somewhat sexist in this thread.

oppyu

2013-04-17, 08:50 PM

No offense, but you seem to come across as somewhat sexist in this thread.

Ok, I've tried to walk away from the very off-topic argument in this thread, but could you please explain the sexism thing?

SaintRidley

2013-04-17, 09:23 PM

No offense, but you seem to come across as somewhat sexist in this thread.

This strikes me as a confusing statement. oppyu seems to be critiquing a sexist (even if unconscious or seemingly innocuous on the part of the guys, it's still sexist) action taken within the comic, not the sex of the guys themselves.

I don't mean to blow this up, but your critique here reads like the charge leveled against people who critique someone on racist attitudes that goes "You're the real racist, charging people with racism like that. How dare you play the race card."

Critiquing sexism does not a sexist make. Being disappointed in the guys for doing something sexist is not sexist. Being disappointed in the guys for doing something sexist because they are guys and that what guys do* is sexist. But oppyu is doing the first and not the second.

*I do not now nor have I ever subscribed to the belief that sexist behavior is hardwired into the male brain. This statement was merely a hypothetical

rgrekejin

2013-04-17, 09:35 PM

Yes I think that's the worst, period.

I'm not sure if you meant that you've read them or not, but the point about the print-only bonus materials is that there are some... mitigating circumstances... for Haley's murder of Crystal that Rich really wishes he had gotten to include in the online strip, as they don't make Haley seem like quite as much of a monster, but he thought it was more important to preserve the flow of the Darth V arc rather than derail it.

...also, Land of the Rising... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) is the best strip, in my opinion. It still gives me chills whenever I read it.

Olinser

2013-04-17, 09:42 PM

This strikes me as a confusing statement. oppyu seems to be critiquing a sexist (even if unconscious or seemingly innocuous on the part of the guys, it's still sexist) action taken within the comic, not the sex of the guys themselves.

I don't mean to blow this up, but your critique here reads like the charge leveled against people who critique someone on racist attitudes that goes "You're the real racist, charging people with racism like that. How dare you play the race card."

Critiquing sexism does not a sexist make. Being disappointed in the guys for doing something sexist is not sexist. Being disappointed in the guys for doing something sexist because they are guys and that what guys do* is sexist. But oppyu is doing the first and not the second.

*I do not now nor have I ever subscribed to the belief that sexist behavior is hardwired into the male brain. This statement was merely a hypothetical

Pointing out that a scene in a comic is possibly in bad taste, or is sexist, is certainly fine.

Referring to them as 'sad and pathetic perverts' is pretty clearly sexism in the other direction. And the poster's further comments simply reinforce that opinion.

oppyu

2013-04-17, 10:22 PM

B. Dandelion

2013-04-17, 10:38 PM

I was put off by 757 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html). It just made me a little sick and I couldn't laugh at it at all, even in a black humor sense. I thought 835 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html) was too disgusting and cruel to be funny as well.

The Battle of Azure City sequence has so many good strips that I want to just nominate all of them as a group! But 449 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) -- in a whole sequence of top-quality strips it still manages to stand out. "They are there as reinforcements" -- there's a wham line for you.

SaintRidley

2013-04-17, 11:00 PM

Pointing out that a scene in a comic is possibly in bad taste, or is sexist, is certainly fine.

Referring to them as 'sad and pathetic perverts' is pretty clearly sexism in the other direction. And the poster's further comments simply reinforce that opinion.

I suppose it's fortunate that referring to them as "sad and pathetic perverts" (which is definitely overstating it there, I agree) is not being sexist, but merely forcefully (perhaps a bit too much so) calling them out on their sexism.

If I hear a person say something racist, and I say "Dude, you're being an ignorant racist assclown," I am not being a racist. (If I see Vaarsuvius assuming that Black Dragons are evil because they are Chromatic Dragons and decide tocast Familicide, and I say "V, you're being a genocidal racist assclown," I am not being racist against elves.)

If I hear a person say something sexist, and I say "Dude, you're being a sexist perverted assclown," I am not being sexist. (If I see Belkar and Elan and Durkon decide to press their ears up against the wall to hear Haley describe what they think are her breasts, and I say "Dudes, quit being perverted assclowns" [or I see Roy placing Miko's attractiveness on a similar level of importance to her actual abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html), and I say "Dude, that's pretty sexist, you're making an assclown of yourself"], I'm not being sexist against men.)

If I hear someone say something homophobic.... You get the picture. In all these cases, I'm calling out a behavior and making a judgment based on the behavior. Not judging an entire class of being. oppyu was forceful in her judgment, but not sexist, because she was doing what I've just described.

Now, can we please drop this and get back to calling our favorite strips the best and our least favorite ones the worst? I'd rather not have the wrath of Mod brought down on this thread.

Unisus

2013-04-18, 12:30 PM

Olinser

2013-04-18, 01:25 PM

I actually don't think it's ok to build up a wall of text and than tell everyone else to leave the topic alone...

But if the strips with some men behaving like pubescent teenagers (which i would not call perverted...) are that bad, what then about a strip with a woman hoping to get a good look at a nude companion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html)?

On topic: I like the old strips for their gags on different topics - mostly on DnD rules (which is fine as i'm a roleplayer) - while i like the new strips for their story. It depends on different things which strip i would like to read at a given time. Sometimes i just like the gag strips, when next time i like to read through the Darth-V story. And while there are things i do not like in a few strips, i still would not call them bad.

It's the mark of somebody basically trying to say, "I'm right, and my word is final, so this discussion is over!"

As for bad strips, the only strip that I'd really consider 'bad' was

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html

The entire order is beaten off-panel by a single person, and Roy lampshades that the only reason Miko won was Power of Plot. I didn't like that a fight was blatantly tilted to one side, and that we weren't even shown how it happened.

Fortunately, only one 'bad' strip out of 884 is still pretty darn good.

Chad30

2013-04-18, 01:57 PM

When the naked guy is streaking in a room/hallway with other people, it's a different thing than people listening to a conversation on the other side of a wall.

Miko's beating of the Order for the sake of plot could count as bad, and the fact that she was so confrontational didn't help. She desperately needed some humility.

oppyu

2013-04-18, 05:52 PM

Ok, everything I said was wrong, and I regret having posted something so hateful and blatantly ignorant. Subsequently, we can all go back to not talking about it.

Boci

2013-04-18, 06:58 PM

When the naked guy is streaking in a room/hallway with other people, it's a different thing than people listening to a conversation on the other side of a wall.

I like how you missed out the fact that Elan removed his clothes under the belief that it would make him invisible, so Haley is essentially looking at an attractive man with a strong personality and a severe mental disorder.

Alternatively, all three scenarios are jokes and thus we should be lenient on what they say about the people involved, which the obvious exception of Belkar, due to frequency at when such scenes occur for him.

ManuelSacha

2013-04-18, 07:24 PM

Best. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)
Second best. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html)
Third best. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) Ex aequo. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

Worst. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0091.html)

Water_Bear

2013-04-18, 07:38 PM

It is entirely possible I'm being dense here, but why exactly are we applying the ethics of consent to listening to people have a mildly suggestive conversation or looking at a person who is publicly naked? Consent is an important issue, and it seems pretty trivializing to lump eavesdropping and rubbernecking in with serious real-world issues.

On a more relevant topic, I really like 877 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html). Durkon's death is tragic and powerful, and the way it is executed leaves no doubt this is the end of a character rather than an afterlife vacation montage. Not to mention the excellent fake-out where we expect Belkar's prophecy to be fulfilled, but instead Durkon's are (read Origin of PCs if that statement confuses you). Overall, one of the better strips in the comic so far.

Chad30

2013-04-18, 07:43 PM

I like how you missed out the fact that Elan removed his clothes under the belief that it would make him invisible, so Haley is essentially looking at an attractive man with a strong personality and a severe mental disorder.

Alternatively, all three scenarios are jokes and thus we should be lenient on what they say about the people involved, which the obvious exception of Belkar, due to frequency at when such scenes occur for him.

True. I'm not sure how to respond to that.

half-drow63

2013-04-18, 09:12 PM

Best:
<http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html>

Worst:
<http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html>

Funniest:
<http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html>

Fates

2013-04-18, 11:08 PM

My, my, so many to choose from....

Favourites:
#830 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)- Tsukiko was definitely my least favourite villain, and maybe even character, in the entire comic, so her death at the hands of my favourite character was fantastic- no pity for her whatsoever, sorry. It was also great to see that Redcloak's still up to his old tricks regarding Xykon.

#587 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0587.html)- How could anyone not love this one? I quite literally LOL every time I read this.

#654 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html)- D'aww.

#84 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html)- Bwaa!

#595 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)- Because I was totally uninterested by Kubota, besides the fact that he was a big ol' jerkface, and it was refreshing to see more of V's badassery.

#768 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0768.html)- As well as the couple of strips before this. I was looking forward to the resolution of the Haley/Haley's father plotline, and I'm quite the sucker for family reunions. Besides which, the ridiculous bluff checks and the punchline at the end are good fun.

#417 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html)- Something I sometimes need to remind my players about.

#423 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html)- Because who of us have never come up with the same joke? I've personally been wanting to make an Einsteinium elemental for some time.

#635 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html)- So cool. Just...wow.

#306 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html)- I think of this every time I play a wizard.

#439 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)- Yes you are, little buddy, yes you are. THERE's the comic relief I wasn't looking for, but enjoyed anyway.

#448 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)- I love wacky tricks like this. It's the type of thing my players like to try. Also, all the paladins died except for the one I really respect, so...woo-hoo?

#449 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html)- Turns out it's not that easy, sir!

#451 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)- Huzzah! Redcloak has officially left racist plaza!

Now, some of my least favourite, either due to the jokes within or because the story aspects pissed me off.

#331 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html)- The whole "silent Haley drama" plot was a big bore for me, and this strip was kind of the crowning moment of it. The last panel makes my head hurt.

#462 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)- Goddamn it Miko! You ruin everything!

#446 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)- To be fair, the last panel is one of the funniest moments in the comic. However, the introduction of Tsukiko into Team Evil was a big letdown for me. I really don't find there to be anything funny about necrophilia, and that seems to really be her one defining quality.

All of the vaguely (or not so vaguely) sexist, aforementioned strips. Social implications aside, I just didn't find any aspect of them funny. (With the exception of the ones centered on Belkar, because despite how much of an ass-chasm he is, I can't help but laugh at the little misogynist's hijinks).

#686 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0686.html)- Haley's reaction seems unrealistic and forced, and...my god, was that supposed to be a punchline?

#508 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0508.html)- I really don't think they're making a big enough deal over how many people just died. I don't really care for any aspect of this strip.

#433 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html) -Redcloak, I love you, man, but you really need to stop being a racist.

#438 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html)- I guess this was meant to be the comic relief for a relatively tragic story arc, except there really wasn't any need for comic relief, and this wasn't funny.

Wow...that was...more than I had intended, and there are still dozens more I can think of.

martianmister

2013-04-19, 04:00 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0123.html - Turns out all of the dudes in the Order, Durkon included, are sad and pathetic perverts.

Don't forget Haley:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html

Vaarsuvius is the only one who is not perverted.

Cizak

2013-04-19, 05:18 PM

Miko's beating of the Order for the sake of plot could count as bad, and the fact that she was so confrontational didn't help. She desperately needed some humility.

She did not beat them just for the sake of plot. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291639&postcount=489)

#438 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html)- I guess this was meant to be the comic relief for a relatively tragic story arc, except there really wasn't any need for comic relief, and this wasn't funny.

Um, what? You thought that one was the only funny strip during the whole Battle for Azure City arc, which wasn't even that tragic for the first half? Sure, some aspects of it was sad, mostly toward the end, but (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html) it's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html) stopped (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) being (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html) a (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html) humor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html) comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html) entire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html) duration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) The one you linked is hardly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) only (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html) strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) covering (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) with (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) humor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html) in (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html) it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html)

Tiktik Ironclaw

2013-04-19, 06:24 PM

I like all the strips the same, so no worst ones but my favorite is:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html

I read the comic out loud to myself, and this one is just awesome for that, and I'm a huge fan of Redcloak.

Chad30

2013-04-19, 06:27 PM

She did not beat them just for the sake of plot. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291639&postcount=489)

Ok, I take that back.

Cizak

2013-04-19, 06:35 PM

Ok, I take that back.

Answer brought to you by The Index of the Giant's Comments. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195):smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Olinser

2013-04-19, 07:45 PM

She did not beat them just for the sake of plot. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=291639&postcount=489)

Um, what? You thought that one was the only funny strip during the whole Battle for Azure City arc, which wasn't even that tragic for the first half? Sure, some aspects of it was sad, mostly toward the end, but (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html) it's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html) stopped (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) being (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html) a (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html) humor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html) comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html) entire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html) duration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) The one you linked is hardly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) only (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html) strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) covering (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) with (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) humor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html) in (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html) it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html)

And you can't read that 'fight' without laughing at how absurdly tilted it is towards Miko. Automatic surprise round for Miko - oh, and a surprise round for the horse that wasn't even summoned yet? 3 hits from Miko to down V (not even a full round of attacks) - and then when V got back up, taking V down in a SINGLE HIT? One hit for a mount to sunder a rogue's bow? A horse basically defeating a rogue in single combat? Haley and V both doing literally not a single HP of damage to Miko the whole fight? Miko missing one single hit in the entire combat? Durkon not using a single healing spell on Belkar the entire fight, healing Roy ONCE, and stabilizing Haley with Cure Light Wounds rather than healing her up or healing Roy? Ridiculous how heavily those dice were biased towards Miko.

When you want to come to a specific result, you can write it however you want.

You can just as easily write a scenario where the OOTS takes down Miko in a single round.

I just think it was a cop-out. He could easily have had a couple other paladins show up to ensure Miko didn't get 'creative' with her order - perhaps O-Chul or Hinjo came with a couple other paladins, sent by Lord Shojo. But he had to have Miko single-handedly take down the OOTS.

Nicholas1024

2013-04-19, 08:46 PM

I'm surprised that strip 561 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html) hasn't been mentioned more. The way the orc tribe's... theology matches up with Elan's ideas is hilarious, particularly with Durkon getting more and more agitated in the background.

:elan: "The only way to settle this dispute between two gods is with a pie-eating contest!"

:durkon: "PUPPETS CANNAE EVEN EAT PIE!"

Also, Nale's charm person usage on Belkar in strip 383 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html) gets a laugh out of me every time. The cutaway panels in the next few strips where we see the results of Belkar being charmed are hilarious.

Really though, there's a lot of funny ones that I don't recall seeing here. For instance, Haley's unique method of solving the "Two paths, one liar, and one truth-teller" puzzle ("She absolutely did not shoot you and I completely expected it!") was great. As was V's solution to figuring out which identical twin was Nale.

xroads

2013-04-19, 10:39 PM

Favorite: #830 Tidying Up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)

Worst: #877 The Bright Side (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html)

~XRoads

WoLong

2013-04-20, 01:32 PM

Worst. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0091.html)

How dare you dishonor the Fruit Pie Sorcerer's memory!

Fates

2013-04-21, 01:47 AM

Um, what? You thought that one was the only funny strip during the whole Battle for Azure City arc, which wasn't even that tragic for the first half? Sure, some aspects of it was sad, mostly toward the end, but (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html) it's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html) stopped (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html) being (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0425.html) a (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0424.html) humor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html) comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html) entire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html) duration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) The one you linked is hardly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) only (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html) strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) covering (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) with (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) humor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html) in (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html) it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html)

Yeah, alright, I get it. It's been almost a year since I read the comic in full, and I was just bringing up the particular strips that I recalled as being my favourite or least favourite. My statement was, of course, wrong; there was plenty of humour to be found in that storyline. However, the overall impression of it was rather sad, and I still stand by my opinion about the strip not being remotely funny.

Sky_Schemer

2013-04-21, 10:22 AM

And you can't read that 'fight' without laughing at how absurdly tilted it is towards Miko.

...

When you want to come to a specific result, you can write it however you want.

You can just as easily write a scenario where the OOTS takes down Miko in a single round.

Well, of course. He's writing a story. That description of the battle only points out that the outcome was feasible within the structure of the game mechanics.

Every event in the comic has a pre-determined result. It's not being written using die rolls.

Olinser

2013-04-21, 11:03 AM

Well, of course. He's writing a story. That description of the battle only points out that the outcome was feasible within the structure of the game mechanics.

Every event in the comic has a pre-determined result. It's not being written using die rolls.

And you could write a battle where Mr Scruffy kills V in single combat. Or where Elan kills Xykon. It it theoretically possible in game mechanics. It doesn't make the outcome any less absurd.

Sky_Schemer

2013-04-21, 11:22 AM

And you could write a battle where Mr Scruffy kills V in single combat. Or where Elan kills Xykon. It it theoretically possible in game mechanics. It doesn't make the outcome any less absurd.

Considering she nearly defeated them once already (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), no, not really.

But even ignoring that, it's also no less absurd than Roy knocking off Xykon's head and throwing him through the gate, a black dragon that speaks lizard, Durkon's "Control Weather", Redcloak's "elementals", pretty much the entire battle for Azure City, Darth V, and the Linear Guild constantly getting away. In fact, it's one of the least absurd incidents since Rich isn't even bending the rules.

It's not just theoretical, and nowhere near as silly as the counter-examples you propose.

Olinser

2013-04-21, 06:25 PM

Considering she nearly defeated them once already (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), no, not really.

But even ignoring that, it's also no less absurd than Roy knocking off Xykon's head and throwing him through the gate, a black dragon that speaks lizard, Durkon's "Control Weather", Redcloak's "elementals", pretty much the entire battle for Azure City, Darth V, and the Linear Guild constantly getting away. In fact, it's one of the least absurd incidents since Rich isn't even bending the rules.

It's not just theoretical, and nowhere near as silly as the counter-examples you propose.

And the very next strip,

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html

Durkon lampshades that by all rights they should have killed her in 1 or 2 rounds.

jere7my

2013-04-21, 06:36 PM

And the very next strip,

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html

Durkon lampshades that by all rights they should have killed her in 1 or 2 rounds.

Durkon says they would've beaten her if it hadn't been raining. The rain gave Miko an advantage. If you wouldn't've minded an extra paladin or two giving Miko an advantage, why cavil at the advantage afforded the lone melee fighter by the weather?

Water_Bear

2013-04-21, 07:41 PM

Durkon says they would've beaten her if it hadn't been raining. The rain gave Miko an advantage. If you wouldn't've minded an extra paladin or two giving Miko an advantage, why cavil at the advantage afforded the lone melee fighter by the weather?

I think his point was that the party, when facing someone who was then an unknown mystery enemy, were only prevented from killing her immediately because circumstance crippled both V and Haley (and Elan had his arm in a sling, for what that's worth) and because of unfamiliarity with her class features.

In the second fight, they had had weeks to learn her abilities and both V and Haley (and Elan, for what that's worth) were at their full game.

Now, it is entirely possible that she could have won; in fact Rich kindly gave us a round-by-round on how that might have happened. But as Roy alluded to, her victory had much more to do with keeping the plot on-track than on a fair matchup of their combat abilities. That's not a bad thing IMO, but neither is pointing out that her victory was somewhat contrived.

Kish

2013-04-21, 07:44 PM

Why is Durkon being treated as Word of the Author, now?

It is Durkon's opinion that the Order would have beaten Miko quickly without the storm. Durkon can occasionally be wrong.

Water_Bear

2013-04-21, 08:29 PM

Why is Durkon being treated as Word of the Author, now?

It is Durkon's opinion that the Order would have beaten Miko quickly without the storm. Durkon can occasionally be wrong.

He can also be right as well. Read that first fight; Haley couldn't fire a single arrow straight, V managed to cast exactly two spells which both failed due to class abilities they didn't know she had (Improved Evasion and Monk Saving Throws + Divine Grace), Belkar got taken out by what he thought initially was a regular horse, and Elan was even more useless than usual. Durkon's assessment made perfect sense; without the storm and with knowledge of their abilities, they likely would have killed her very quickly.

Olinser

2013-04-21, 10:50 PM

Durkon says they would've beaten her if it hadn't been raining. The rain gave Miko an advantage. If you wouldn't've minded an extra paladin or two giving Miko an advantage, why cavil at the advantage afforded the lone melee fighter by the weather?

I'd feel the same way if Roy were to suddenly take down the entire Tarquin/Malack + Linear Guild by himself by 'random' events tilting in his favor.

If you really don't see the difference between a party of 4 paladins beating the OOTS, and one lone paladin beating them because 'random' events were ridiculously tilted in her favor (twice!), I don't think there's much point in continuing this discussion.

jere7my

2013-04-21, 11:37 PM

I'd feel the same way if Roy were to suddenly take down the entire Tarquin/Malack + Linear Guild by himself by 'random' events tilting in his favor.

If you really don't see the difference between a party of 4 paladins beating the OOTS, and one lone paladin beating them because 'random' events were ridiculously tilted in her favor (twice!), I don't think there's much point in continuing this discussion.

My only point in replying was to address your interpretation of Durkon's line. He wasn't saying, "We should've been able to take her out in two rounds." He was saying, "Environmental factors gave her an advantage, which is why we couldn't take her out in two rounds." I'm quibbling with your reading comprehension, not your analysis of the fight. I don't actually care how realistic the fight was, any more than I care that Stormtroopers are conveniently terrible shots.

SadisticFishing

2013-04-21, 11:49 PM

Being a monk/paladin with high stats actually makes you very difficult to take down quickly.

Yes, she was not favoured in that fight, but she won and it doesn't strain belief at all. Give an NPC some great stats, good magic items, and a few levels on the party and they'll do some weird stuff.

Then take away one of the party's powerhouses, and give Miko a surprise round with the horse (because no one expected the paladin to go for a surprise round) in direct melee with Haley... Yeah. It genuinely makes sense.

So would have the party winning, though. But that's not what Rich wanted.

Sir_Leorik

2013-04-22, 05:03 PM

Here are my favorite strips, categorized by funny stand-alone strips, epic moments, sad moments and quiet moments:

Funny Stand Alone Strips:

"Turn Undead!" "My eyes!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html)

"Hey kids! See what the Mind Flayer is thinking!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html)

Don't say it! Its trademarked." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html)

"My eyes are finally open. From this day forward, I'm never hurting a living creature ever again." "Dismiss Owl's Wisdom." "Let's kill those losers!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)

"Bite my 50% miss chance!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0089.html)

"You're trying to kill me you fruit-filled bastard!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0091.html)

"Spetum?" "Yes, definitely." "Ah, well, I'll have one of those then." "Oh! I thought you were asking if I'd spayed the cat." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html)

"Sigh. "Yes, the new plan will STILL involve rocket skates." "yay!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0256.html)

I'll add some more as I think of them.

DaggerPen

2013-04-29, 06:56 AM

Best is so freaking hard to nail down.

Ghost-martyrs of the Sapphire Guard - Attack! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html) was just amazing, and is definitely a strong contender. "Mr. Stiffly! Mr. Stiffly! O-CHUL!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) just broke my heart, though, and I think wins for my favorite.

As for the worst? "Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html). It's a borderline rape joke, which just really bothered me.

Sir_Leorik

2013-04-29, 10:29 AM

No I didn't read them, but if there wasn't anything more in those bonus strips than "Crystal tried to kill Haley and kicked a thousand puppies in the process" then it matters not, because the reasons why I dislike the murder have nothing to do with Crystal's (im)morality.

Since you clearly have not read the bonus material in Don't split the party, here's what you missed:

Bozzok ordered Crystal to murder Haley, but to make it look like an accident. The only reason he wanted her to operate discretely was that he was afraid of Belkar finding out and killing the two of them. During the infiltration of Grubwiggler's mansion, Crystal murders one of Grubwigglers assistants (he told her "I'll die before I tell you where my master is!" so she killed him and then tried to make an Intimidate check against his corpse). Finally, Haley tried to negotiate with Grubwiggler to get Roy's body back in a peaceful manner. The two of them were about to agree to a deal where Grubwiggler would give Haley the Bone Golem if the OotS when on a fetch quest for him... when Crystal murdered Grubwiggler. Then Crystal used a tanglefoot bag to trap Haley when the Bone Golem attacked them, then sat back to drink a beer while the Bone Golem mauled Haley. This proved to be Crystal's undoing, as Haley shot the beer out of Crystal's hands, dissolving the tanglefoot goop. Belkar then managed to incapacitate the Bone Golem in a funny way.

That's why Haley killed Crystal; it was self defense. Hank was willing to uphold the Thieves' Guild's end of the deal, but Bozzok was not, and Hank did not have enough political power to force him. If Bozzok had been willing to rein in Crystal, the idiotic assassin wouldn't have been killed by Haley.

Mike Havran

2013-04-29, 12:49 PM

Since you clearly have not read the bonus material in Don't split the party, here's what you missed:

Bozzok ordered Crystal to murder Haley, but to make it look like an accident. The only reason he wanted her to operate discretely was that he was afraid of Belkar finding out and killing the two of them. During the infiltration of Grubwiggler's mansion, Crystal murders one of Grubwigglers assistants (he told her "I'll die before I tell you where my master is!" so she killed him and then tried to make an Intimidate check against his corpse). Finally, Haley tried to negotiate with Grubwiggler to get Roy's body back in a peaceful manner. The two of them were about to agree to a deal where Grubwiggler would give Haley the Bone Golem if the OotS when on a fetch quest for him... when Crystal murdered Grubwiggler. Then Crystal used a tanglefoot bag to trap Haley when the Bone Golem attacked them, then sat back to drink a beer while the Bone Golem mauled Haley. This proved to be Crystal's undoing, as Haley shot the beer out of Crystal's hands, dissolving the tanglefoot goop. Belkar then managed to incapacitate the Bone Golem in a funny way.

That's why Haley killed Crystal; it was self defense. Hank was willing to uphold the Thieves' Guild's end of the deal, but Bozzok was not, and Hank did not have enough political power to force him. If Bozzok had been willing to rein in Crystal, the idiotic assassin wouldn't have been killed by Haley.

It wasn't self-defense. It would have been self-defense if Haley killed her in the manor. Now I'm 100% sure that #648 is the comic's nadir (for me, of course).

Serranex

2013-04-29, 01:35 PM

By far my favorite: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html

The final panel non-chalance seals it after an epic speech.

Squirrel_Token

2013-04-29, 02:28 PM

It wasn't self-defense. It would have been self-defense if Haley killed her in the manor. Now I'm 100% sure that #648 is the comic's nadir (for me, of course).

Now you're just arguing semantics. It was clear that Crystal was going to be a threat as long as she lived, and while Haley had other things like making it out with Roy's body alive in mind in the manor, once Crystal's intentions became clear Haley did the only reasonable thing--remove a potential obstacle that could prevent them from the minor mission of, ya know, saving the world.

Mike Havran

2013-04-29, 02:41 PM

Now you're just arguing semantics. It was clear that Crystal was going to be a threat as long as she lived, and while Haley had other things like making it out with Roy's body alive in mind in the manor, once Crystal's intentions became clear Haley did the only reasonable thing--remove a potential obstacle that could prevent them from the minor mission of, ya know, saving the world. It was perfectly obvious that Crystal will be raised along with every other dead member of the Guild. It was perfectly obvious that she is Haley's level no matter what. It was also perfectly obvious that Haley will teleport away in a minute with active Cloister protection. Haley's act increased the possibility that enraged Crystal will leave Greysky and become a potential obstacle in the future.

Olinser

2013-04-29, 03:20 PM

It was perfectly obvious that Crystal will be raised along with every other dead member of the Guild. It was perfectly obvious that she is Haley's level no matter what. It was also perfectly obvious that Haley will teleport away in a minute with active Cloister protection. Haley's act increased the possibility that enraged Crystal will leave Greysky and become a potential obstacle in the future.

It is NOT perfectly obvious.

Crystal is stupid and totally incompetent at anything that doesn't require her to stick her knife in somebody. I personally think Bozzok isn't going to bother raising her - he can get people just as powerful that are smart enough to know when NOT to knife somebody.

Not only that, but Haley removed all of her magic items, making her significantly less of a threat.

For her to become as dangerous would required Bozzok to not only raise her, but sink tens of thousands of gold into replacing all of her items. A +4 dagger alone costs 32,000 gp. Unlikely.

Even if Bozzok raises Crystal and re-equips her, it is EXTREMELY unlikely they are going to go to the cost and trouble of pursuing her across a continent. Bozzok and his crew already lost once to just Belkar + Haley. The whole reason Bozzok was trying to make Haley's death look like an accident was because he wasn't even sure he could take Belkar alone. More likely they're just going to present a corpse to everybody, claim it was Haley's, and warn them never to go against the thieves guild again.

Mike Havran

2013-04-29, 03:44 PM

It is NOT perfectly obvious.

Crystal is stupid and totally incompetent at anything that doesn't require her to stick her knife in somebody. I personally think Bozzok isn't going to bother raising her - he can get people just as powerful that are smart enough to know when NOT to knife somebody.

Not only that, but Haley removed all of her magic items, making her significantly less of a threat.

For her to become as dangerous would required Bozzok to not only raise her, but sink tens of thousands of gold into replacing all of her items. A +4 dagger alone costs 32,000 gp. Unlikely.

Even if Bozzok raises Crystal and re-equips her, it is EXTREMELY unlikely they are going to go to the cost and trouble of pursuing her across a continent. Bozzok and his crew already lost once to just Belkar + Haley. The whole reason Bozzok was trying to make Haley's death look like an accident was because he wasn't even sure he could take Belkar alone. More likely they're just going to present a corpse to everybody, claim it was Haley's, and warn them never to go against the thieves guild again.It was perfectly obvious.

Crystal is a high-leveled Guild hitter which means all she does is exactly that - sticks a knife in somebody. Other Bozzok's employees are pretty weak in comparison to her. Hank's personal lackey is only level 8 and none of the others showed anything beyond that level, while Belkar and 9-ish cleric made mincemeat of them on the run. Crystal is an ideal employee for Bozzok - she's loyal, strong, and enjoys what she does. Bozzok does not need an ambitious smartass, but an obedient and willing tool. Not only Crystal will get raised, she will get all the priorities and equipment replacements as fast as possible.

The magic items are pretty easily replacable given the Guild's wealth and stuff they took from Pete and Grubby. If there's some cash missing, Crystal can easily obtain it by going vendetta on anybody in Greysky who was on good terms with Haley in the olden days, or who is her relative in some way and isn't too irreplacable. I can very well imagine Crystal doing that in a pretty sadistic fashion, being furious with her defeat. Yet another thing Haley didn't give a rat's ass about when she did the murder.

I never said the chance that Crystal will go after Haley is high. But chance of Crystal going after Haley without the murder would be zero. That's why I said the murder increased the chance.

Blugthorp

2013-04-29, 03:55 PM

Favorites? definitely some of the first ones.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html

Didn't like the whole V going crazy trying to save everyone storyline.

Olinser

2013-04-29, 03:56 PM

It was perfectly obvious.

Crystal is a high-leveled Guild hitter which means all she does is exactly that - sticks a knife in somebody. Other Bozzok's employees are pretty weak in comparison to her. Hank's personal lackey is only level 8 and none of the others showed anything beyond that level, while Belkar and 9-ish cleric made mincemeat of them on the run. Crystal is an ideal employee for Bozzok - she's loyal, strong, and enjoys what she does. Bozzok does not need an ambitious smartass, but an obedient and willing tool. Not only Crystal will get raised, she will get all the priorities and equipment replacements as fast as possible.

The magic items are pretty easily replacable given the Guild's wealth and stuff they took from Pete and Grubby. If there's some cash missing, Crystal can easily obtain it by going vendetta on anybody in Greysky who was on good terms with Haley in the olden days, or who is her relative in some way and isn't too irreplacable. I can very well imagine Crystal doing that in a pretty sadistic fashion, being furious with her defeat. Yet another thing Haley didn't give a rat's ass about when she did the murder.

I never said the chance that Crystal will go after Haley is high. But chance of Crystal going after Haley without the murder would be zero. That's why I said the murder increased the chance.

You're kidding, right? IF he raises Crystal, Bozzok just sank probably 100k-150k gold into the whole Haley fiasco (if you include the multiple guild Raise Dead/Resurrections). He couldn't even beat Belkar+Haley last time with his entire guild to back him up, was within a single arrow of being dead, and now he's going to sink even more money and resources into pursuing them when they're with an entire high-level party?

Bozzok didn't get to be, and remain, guild leader by being stupid. He's going to cut his losses and thank whatever D&D god he prays to that Haley and her party aren't around to cost him any more than they already have. It just isn't worth it. Even if he wanted to make an issue of it, they just aren't powerful enough to be a credible threat to the full party. Even in their incredibly precarious situation right now, with basically just Roy+Elan+Haley, he'd get his ass kicked.

Chad30

2013-04-29, 04:09 PM

I doubt that Bozzok would suffer from sunk cost fallacy. I've got nothing against Hailey for doing what she did, and I didn't even read the strips that got cut beforehand.

Mike Havran

2013-04-29, 04:12 PM

You're kidding, right? IF he raises Crystal, Bozzok just sank probably 100k-150k gold into the whole Haley fiasco (if you include the multiple guild Raise Dead/Resurrections). He couldn't even beat Belkar+Haley last time with his entire guild to back him up, was within a single arrow of being dead, and now he's going to sink even more money and resources into pursuing them when they're with an entire high-level party?

Bozzok didn't get to be, and remain, guild leader by being stupid. He's going to cut his losses and thank whatever D&D god he prays to that Haley and her party aren't around to cost him any more than they already have. It just isn't worth it. Even if he wanted to make an issue of it, they just aren't powerful enough to be a credible threat to the full party. Even in their incredibly precarious situation right now, with basically just Roy+Elan+Haley, he'd get his ass kicked.
How much do you think an entire Grubwiggler's castle is worth in D&D?

And for that matter, do you think it's more likely that Bozzok or Crystal will act against Haley (not just act against her personally, but also act against her father, other relatives or comrades) now, or it would be more likely for them to act against Haley now, had she left the Guild without murdering Crystal? Or do you think the murder had no impact on those chances whatsoever?

Olinser

2013-04-29, 04:35 PM

How much do you think an entire Grubwiggler's castle is worth in D&D?

And for that matter, do you think it's more likely that Bozzok or Crystal will act against Haley (not just act against her personally, but also act against her father, other relatives or comrades) now, or it would be more likely for them to act against Haley now, had she left the Guild without murdering Crystal? Or do you think the murder had no impact on those chances whatsoever?

Far less likely. One action cost them a good 50-100k in items, in addition to all of the raises he's going to have to shell out of his own purse now. Bozzok is going to cut his losses and be thankful he's not worse off. He's not going to risk antagonizing a party of high-level adventurers just for petty revenge, as long as Haley never comes near Greysky again. He's going to produce a random corpse (possibly have Crystal's corpse polymorphed into a copy of Haley), toss it in front of the other thieves as a warning, and pray he never has to deal with her again.

Mike Havran

2013-04-29, 04:53 PM

Far less likely. One action cost them a good 50-100k in items, in addition to all of the raises he's going to have to shell out of his own purse now. Bozzok is going to cut his losses and be thankful he's not worse off. He's not going to risk antagonizing a party of high-level adventurers just for petty revenge, as long as Haley never comes near Greysky again. He's going to produce a random corpse (possibly have Crystal's corpse polymorphed into a copy of Haley), toss it in front of the other thieves as a warning, and pray he never has to deal with her again.
That is not an argument for "less likely than in case sans murder", but for "unlikely". Bozzok may make Crystal get over her death just like that, but he would certainly have it far easier had Haley decided not to go away with a bang.

Olinser

2013-04-29, 05:29 PM

That is not an argument for "less likely than in case sans murder", but for "unlikely". Bozzok may make Crystal get over her death just like that, but he would certainly have it far easier had Haley decided not to go away with a bang.

How? That lets Bozzok and Crystal get away with multiple attempted murders with zero consequences. They'd keep trying to get rid of her to save face, as long as they think she won't fight back. Haley just disappearing makes them think she's afraid of them and running away.

Haley killing Crystal forces Bozzok to face the very real and tangible consequences of any further action against her. She makes it quite clear that the kid gloves are off, she's through tolerating them, and Hank isn't going to talk her down a second time.

Mike Havran

2013-04-29, 05:52 PM

How? That lets Bozzok and Crystal get away with multiple attempted murders with zero consequences. They'd keep trying to get rid of her to save face, as long as they think she won't fight back. Haley just disappearing makes them think she's afraid of them and running away.
So what? Why should they pursue her if she made clear she does not want to have a fight with them?

Haley killing Crystal forces Bozzok to face the very real and tangible consequences of any further action against her. She makes it quite clear that the kid gloves are off, she's through tolerating them, and Hank isn't going to talk her down a second time.Ditto. They would have no interest in hunting her down in the first place, so the "intimidation" excuse just kicks through the open door. If anything, it shows that Haley is ready and willing to actively attack and kill Guild members even when she does not need to, and it's not unlikely she will attempt to continue doing that in the future, so the Guild may just as well start to exterminate everybody in the city who could possibly help her and track down and kill any remaining members of Starshine family.

SadisticFishing

2013-04-29, 07:09 PM

FlawedParadigm

2013-04-29, 07:15 PM

I was going to submit http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0075.html as my personal favourite/best...

...but boy, that strip takes on a darker tone these days, doesn't it? Especially since it was once again Roy relying on those same three to pay attention to what Durkon was doing...

Mike Havran

2013-04-30, 01:59 AM

Except that now they see that the price of attacking Haley has gone up significantly - to at least 32,000gp.

The chance increased due to revenge, and decreased due to cost. You're just arguing over which you think has changed more.

I would argue that Bozzok wants to make a profit, and so losing tens of thousands of gold each time he attacks Haley makes it less likely, especially considering that there is the initial cost of the resurrection on top of re-outfitting her.

That scene was in the comic to show that Haley's all growed up, and I, personally, liked that it was there. You can't just let Chaotic Evil people run around doing whatever they want.I completely agree with you that Bozzok thinks in cost/benefit frame of mind. But I don't think you put everything into the equation.

They already know the price of attacking Haley - they learned it at Pete's house. They had really good initial position and lost like, dozens of thieves (arguably, they did not take into account Haley's other allies and she had also some luck, but that is not that relevant). The cost of taken Crystal's equipment doesn't change much.

At Grubby's Bozzok had a perfect position. Accidents happen in hostile territory: the chance of success was decent, the cost (if Crystal gets killed, we raise her) was relatively low, the benefit (we get to kill Haley) rather nice.

After Haley leaves (without murder), the risk of mission's (track her and kill her) failure is huge, the cost is large (there's no way how to get the corpses and thier stuff back) and the benefit did not change at all. Bummer of an investment. Notice that Bozzok already needs to assume Haley will kill and take stuff - Haley's murder didn't bring anything new in that matter. All it did was to provide some fixed cost.

But without the murder, the risk of the not-acting-against-her alternative is zero, as Haley clearly isn't actively going to act against the Guild. The cost is, naturally, also zero, so Bozzok would have taken the stance without hesitation.

With the murder, Haley announced she is both malicious and willing to actively attack guild. Now, the risk of inaction on the Guild's part is non-zero, as Haley may eventually storm the Guild at some later point for further revenge or as looting targets. That is why Bozzok can't leave this matter alone and that was my point when I said the murder increased the possibility Haley will stand against the TG once more.

SadisticFishing

2013-04-30, 02:10 AM

Except that they already ordered Crystal to kill Haley even though she wasn't a threat - not the strongest argument out there.

We're multiplying and comparing unknown probabilities, this argument is silly.

My take is that killing Crystal and destroying her corpse would have been the right thing to do. Without the corpse destruction, it's just odd. Poorly implemented intelligent strategy.

The murder set the guild back a lot of gold. Considering lives are almost completely irrelevant, costing evil people gold is a good thing. It makes them non-threats. I remember once, a monster (Devourer, I think) destroyed our party's Warblade. The player and character were almost in tears - I could have killed him ten times and it would have been significantly cheaper (I was the DM).

Killing her and taking her dagger made her a non-threat for the foreseeable future - and also she very much deserved it. Crystal was a terrible, terrible person, and her death improves the world incrementally.

oppyu

2013-04-30, 02:14 AM

Honestly, I don't see the moral issue with what Haley did. When I first read the strip, I didn't know that Crystal had actively attempted to murder Haley while raiding Grubwiggler's house, and my reaction was still 'woooooo! Go Haley!'. The fact that it was defensive just kind of lessened the awesome (much like Greedo shooting first.)

They live in a world where murder is more common than rational discussion, and Crystal was established as someone who wanted to kill Haley. Haley took care of it first, either sending a dramatic message to the Thieves Guild to leave her alone, or permanently eliminating a potent threat to her life. Whether or not this leads to recriminations from the Guild, it was still pretty awesome.

Mike Havran

2013-04-30, 02:21 AM

SadisticFishing

2013-04-30, 02:35 AM

oppyu

2013-04-30, 02:38 AM

Plus, consider the possibility that she was simply unwilling to destroy Crystal's corpse. Killing her in cold blood is one thing; if Bozzok chooses not to raise her, it's just as much his fault as it is Haley's. But if she destroys the corpse, then she's actually, permanently murdering someone that she used to be somewhat non-murdery with. And as chaotic as she is, she's well-and-truly Chaotic Good now, not Chaotic Goodish.

SadisticFishing

2013-04-30, 02:40 AM

Also, she'd be leaving her to permanently rot in the Abyss. So it's a double punishment.

Except for two things - thing #1, Bozzok could still get a True Resurrection if he wanted to, and #2, Good is not dumb.

FlawedParadigm

2013-04-30, 06:11 AM

I guess the chances of any more actual on topic posts are probably nil? :(

Mike Havran

2013-04-30, 06:44 AM

It may have stopped her, depending on Bozzok, and depending on whether she took the corpse. It also lost her a level, which is not a small thing.

Also, we're comparing ax to by, where a, x, b, and y are all different unknowns. Not useful.

The chance of chasing was not 0. A probability cannot be 0.
Crystal is the single character whose level is explicitly always the same as Haley's. Level loss matters not.
If a<b and x<y then we can make statement ax<by even if don't know the exact values. And, OK, when I say chances are 0 it was meant they are ~10^(-lots).

Plus, consider the possibility that she was simply unwilling to destroy Crystal's corpse. Killing her in cold blood is one thing; if Bozzok chooses not to raise her, it's just as much his fault as it is Haley's. But if she destroys the corpse, then she's actually, permanently murdering someone that she used to be somewhat non-murdery with. And as chaotic as she is, she's well-and-truly Chaotic Good now, not Chaotic Goodish.Um, no, I don't really buy that Haley "only" murdered and looted Crystal because of fond memories on the olden days. She did it to ventilate her malice and get some loot. All the wrong reasons.

Edit:
*finally gets the nudge* I won't discuss the stuff here anymore. The bottom line is that #648 is the worst strip of the comic, for me, by far, for several different reasons.

DaggerPen

2013-04-30, 07:13 AM

*attempts to nudge thread back on topic*

In addition to really hating the "Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion," I honestly don't really like most of the early strips. A few of them were good for a chuckle ("I GOT A FOUR!"), but things never really started picking up for me until after the destruction of Dorukan's Dungeon, and I tend not to reread stuff until Miko meets Xykon or later. Aside from that, the earlier strips really frustrate me, as it tends to make it hard for me to get friends into the comic - I hate that I have to try to coax them through a long string of gag a day jokes in order to get them to stuff like the Ghost-martyrs of the Sapphire Guard.

After that, though, it's so damn hard to pick a favorite strip. I earlier called it as "Mr. Stiffly! Mr. Stiffly! O-CHUL!" because that one was and still is the one that resonated most with me on an emotional level, but there are so many of them that are on at least equal tier with that. Aside from the popular and intensely epic Ghost-martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, Tarquin's "If I live, I get to be a king. If I die, I get to be a god" speech was easily my very favorite villain speech of all time. Second to that in terms of villain speeches was Xykon's "power equals power" speech.

In terms of just sheer awesomeness, though... I have to say, while I've laughed very hard at an OOTS comic before, and I've gasped out loud at the amazing twist of an OOTS comic before, "Guess what spell I cast before giving this to the bird" is probably the one that most effectively combined them.

Honestly, I'm kind of tempted to just go through and do a "favorite and least favorite" strip by arc or book. That might get a bit more discussion.

Lvl45DM!

2013-04-30, 09:32 AM

I came into the strip accidentally near the beginning of Azure City's seige so I didn't know what a horrible little miscreant Belkar was. So that made this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)the best for me at the time and it still holds a special place in my heart. Funny and awesome.

But now its this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html). After dying and putzing around for a while seeing Roy in top epic form, seeing his heroic nature, his badassery, sheer determination *squee*. And its still hilarious. "Im a scary gladiator boo!" Roy is my absolute favourite kind of hero, the one who is cynical and jaded but so sincere about fighting for everyone else's benefit, who uses their brains and is willing to take the hits. He reminds me alot of Harry Dresden in that way, a Smart Warrior instead of a Tough Wizard. Also Thog's cute evil is always a delight

Sir_Leorik

2013-04-30, 08:43 PM

It wasn't self-defense. It would have been self-defense if Haley killed her in the manor. Now I'm 100% sure that #648 is the comic's nadir (for me, of course).

A preemptive strike against a known murderer who is plotting to murder you is self defense.

In addition there's an interesting possibility that Crystal's not coming back. While Bozzok would probably pay to have Crystal raised, Hank might not be amenable to that. Yes, Haley owes them a ton of treasure and it would be prudent to hire bounty hunters to collect from her, but its in Hank (and many other members of the Guild who fear Bozzok) to keep his pet assassin from coming back. All Hank needed to do was bribe the right cleric of Loki and she's stuck in Carceri for eternity...

Lvl45DM!

2013-05-01, 12:02 AM

Dudes. Opinions. Not real life. Argument is pointless. More importantly its pretty close to Morally Justified. This thread can still be awesome.
Though I will say that both sides are actually arguing intelligently and thats pretty awesome :smalltongue:

Skamandros

2013-05-01, 12:59 AM

NihhusHuotAliro

2013-05-01, 01:17 PM

My least favorite were 35 and 123; mostly because I don't like how much reaction they elicit in this thread.

My favorite will be the one where Belkar dies; and my other favorite is the first crayon strip. What an art shift that was. So unexpected and cool.

Unisus

2013-05-04, 02:52 PM

The chance of chasing was not 0. A probability cannot be 0.

Just the mathematician in me speaking: while i agree to the first part, the second part is not true. You can always get a probability of zero in a defined environment. For example, if you take a bag with ten balls in it, numbered from 1 to 10, then the probability of drawing a ball with the number 17 is zero.

Of course, if the environment is not strictly defined, you have nearly nothing with a probability of zero.

Oh, and to be on topic, if i had to name a strip that i really don't like, it would be 707 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html).

Chad30

2013-05-04, 03:00 PM

Eh, that goblin was likely a planted spy anyway. That was plan A before they disguised a goblin as a Human.

Unisus

2013-05-04, 03:10 PM

And i would not have a problem with it, had they killed him right on the spot. But i never liked this kind of behaviour.

Bulldog Psion

2013-05-04, 04:34 PM

My favorites are far too many to list. Though "Land of the Rising" does occupy a place pretty close to the top.

However, I do have a clear least favorite. This one:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html

It's annoying, absolutely pointless, and trying so hard to be funny and failing that it's painful to read, IMO. I should clarify that I enjoy most of the recent arc, even the wordy exposition strips and the excessive Star Wars references. But that one just rubs me the wrong way, in a way that is difficult to rationally explain. :smallwink:

Chad30

2013-05-04, 04:44 PM

I think it's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable.

Bulldog Psion

2013-05-04, 04:50 PM

I think it's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable.

Probably, but unfortunately it does so in the wrong way, at least for me. As in, "gadzooks, don't strain something by trying too hard to be ultra-corny here," rather than "dang, that's creepy."

SadisticFishing

2013-05-04, 07:20 PM

However, in the real world, when you roll a die, it doesn't literally have infinite certainty of coming up some number between 1 and 6. The die might land on its edge; or get struck by a meteor; or the Dark Lords of the Matrix might reach in and write "37" on one side.

There are articles on why 0 and 1 aren't probabilities, this is the one that introduced me to the concept: http://lesswrong.com/lw/mp/0_and_1_are_not_probabilities/

LuisDantas

2013-05-04, 08:02 PM

Best: #428, "It takes a Thief (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)". Excellent moment for Haley.

Worst: #599, "Separate Ways (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html)" was a very low point for Elan. His failure to stand up with Durkon against Vaarsuvius' lack of discernment sorely disappointed me.

All the same, #606, "The Philosophy of Chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html")" was considerably worse. What is worse than a Belkar spotlight based on a supposed ghost counseling him to be more of a hypocrite?

Chad30

2013-05-04, 08:36 PM

I don't really understand why you'd think Elan had a low point there. In the state that V was, he was more of a burden than a boon. Plus it's not like they had spare time and energy making her stay.

Also that pep talk to Belkar wasn't so he'd be more of a hypocrite. It was to save lives and help keep him on the path to helping. Which he did.

Water_Bear

2013-05-04, 08:37 PM

All the same, #606, "The Philosophy of Chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html")" was considerably worse. What is worse than a Belkar spotlight based on a supposed ghost counseling him to be more of a hypocrite?

What were you expecting? A heartfelt realization that he was wrong and a resolve to atone for his crimes?

:belkar:: "Fat chance."

LuisDantas

2013-05-04, 09:21 PM

I don't really understand why you'd think Elan had a low point there. In the state that V was, he was more of a burden than a boon. Plus it's not like they had spare time and energy making her stay.

True enough, but hardly the point. Elan had a very clear duty towards Hinjo and failed it utterly. Worse yet, he knew it.

Also that pep talk to Belkar wasn't so he'd be more of a hypocrite. It was to save lives and help keep him on the path to helping. Which he did.

Not at all my reading of it, sorry.

Then again, there is only so much that can be done with Belkar.

What were you expecting? A heartfelt realization that he was wrong and a resolve to atone for his crimes?

:belkar:: "Fat chance."

I agree. There is a reason why I am not at all a fan of Belkar.

Water_Bear

2013-05-04, 10:39 PM

I just want to make it clear now; I'm not disagreeing here per se so much as offering a different view, and I totally respect not liking something because of the ethics of the characters even if I don't quite get it.

True enough, but hardly the point. Elan had a very clear duty towards Hinjo and failed it utterly. Worse yet, he knew it.

I think that's a Law vs Chaos issue; valuing an abstract notion of "duty" over a friendship, even a dying one, is both a very Lawful position to take and profoundly out of character for Elan.

One of the reasons two-axis alignment gets so hairy is that for a lot of people, Law is Good; that if there is a moral imperative, it is your duty to do good and thus doing your duty is always good. Putting mental distance between the concepts is easier if you look at the default D&D cosmology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html).

I agree. There is a reason why I am not at all a fan of Belkar.

I'm always curious when people are upset or outraged by main characters doing "bad" things and it detracts from their enjoyment of the work, if they feel the same way about the villains. If the baddie is too evil, does that make it harder to like the work? Or does wanting to see them defeated make the payoff more satisfying?

B. Dandelion

2013-05-04, 11:36 PM

True enough, but hardly the point. Elan had a very clear duty towards Hinjo and failed it utterly. Worse yet, he knew it..

Honest question, but I wonder if you could clarify the nature of your disappointment here, because I'm not quite following it. Elan doesn't back up Durkon and Vaarsuvius leaves, then Elan lies to Hinjo about what happened (despite the fact that he'd strongly suggested to V that he would tell the truth). I could see how you'd say it was Elan's duty to Hinjo to tell the truth, but not quite how you'd say it was his duty to Hinjo to make Vaarsuvius stay put. If he'd let Vaarsuvius go and then told the truth like he'd insinuated he would, would he have still let Hinjo down?

Bulldog Psion

2013-05-04, 11:57 PM

I hate to pour oil on troubled fires here, but Elan saying "have a nice trip" seems like about the best thing he could have done. There was no "making" V stay and arguing further would have just widened the breach. Sometimes the best thing to do is to call it quits for a while, and that sure looked like one of those moments to me.

oppyu

2013-05-05, 12:11 AM

Also, Elan ain't Roy. A brilliantly-conceived statement which convinces V to follow and believe in the power of friendship would be utterly contrary to previous strips showing him to be an idiot. In the same way that Haley using free and open communication to effectively deter Celia from going into the rogue-infested deathtrap that is Greysky City, or effectively wielding her authority over Belkar to prevent him from doing stupid things that endanger their lives, would have been contrary to previous strips showing her to be an individualistic, secretive thief with little respect for authority and trouble grasping teamwork.

LuisDantas

2013-05-05, 12:12 AM

I think that's a Law vs Chaos issue; valuing an abstract notion of "duty" over a friendship, even a dying one, is both a very Lawful position to take and profoundly out of character for Elan.

It seems to me that this would be lending a bit too much weight to the nominal "chaotic" alignment of Elan.

He has consistently been shown to care about the safety and well-being of his companions, even to a fault. That may even be in some sense a violation of his alignment (although I would rather call it an illustration of the limitations of the alignment system), but it is his failure to warn Hinjo that was out of character.

Besides, what do you mean by "abstract" notion of duty? Or, for that matter, by choosing it over friendship? Hinjo has been as good a friend to Elan as one could ask for.

One of the reasons two-axis alignment gets so hairy is that for a lot of people, Law is Good; that if there is a moral imperative, it is your duty to do good and thus doing your duty is always good.

I suppose that is true. However, you have just made me notice that there is a perhaps more serious confusion between morality and lawfulness. The two concepts are in fact nearly unrelated.

Elan may be nominally chaotic, but he is also lilly-white good. His morality has been consistently shown to be impressive, even over Roy's and perhaps Durkon's. His failure to realize his duty to warn Hinjo was appalling, and screamed "out of character" to me.

It did not help that he made a Sarah Palin impression in the same strip, either...

Putting mental distance between the concepts is easier if you look at the default D&D cosmology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html).

I'm always curious when people are upset or outraged by main characters doing "bad" things and it detracts from their enjoyment of the work, if they feel the same way about the villains. If the baddie is too evil, does that make it harder to like the work? Or does wanting to see them defeated make the payoff more satisfying?

Nah, I like Redcloak just fine, for instance. He is an interesting character with a complex (but not inconsistent) personality. The same is also true of Xykon, who is even funny. But Elan had shown himself time and again to care about the consequences of his actions, most noticeably in Azure City. He is not the kind of character who would just fail to do something about such a troublesome development. See also how quickly and how honorably he dealt with the Terkla situation as soon as he met Haley again.

For all of his supposed "chaotic" tendencies, Elan is in fact very straightforward a guy.

LuisDantas

2013-05-05, 12:16 AM

Honest question, but I wonder if you could clarify the nature of your disappointment here, because I'm not quite following it. Elan doesn't back up Durkon and Vaarsuvius leaves, then Elan lies to Hinjo about what happened (despite the fact that he'd strongly suggested to V that he would tell the truth). I could see how you'd say it was Elan's duty to Hinjo to tell the truth, but not quite how you'd say it was his duty to Hinjo to make Vaarsuvius stay put. If he'd let Vaarsuvius go and then told the truth like he'd insinuated he would, would he have still let Hinjo down?

I don't think Hinjo could hold Vaarsuvius anyway, so it never occurred to me that Elan would feel a duty to ask him to try.

What bugs me is that Vaarsuvius was headed into a very dangerous moral path and Elan seemed to unexplainably just forget about it between strips. That was weird, very weird indeed. Had he warned Hinjo, I would be ok with his attitude.

LuisDantas

2013-05-05, 12:17 AM

I hate to pour oil on troubled fires here, but Elan saying "have a nice trip" seems like about the best thing he could have done. There was no "making" V stay and arguing further would have just widened the breach.

I agree about that. Elan failed Hinjo, not Vaarsuvius.

Sometimes the best thing to do is to call it quits for a while, and that sure looked like one of those moments to me.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-05-05, 12:29 AM

Elan failed Hinjo, not Vaarsuvius.

Valuing friendship over duty seems Chaotic and in-character for Elan.

Tev

2013-05-05, 06:08 AM

So much overreaction in this thread ~~

I don't really hate any comic, a few gag-oriented ones fell flat, like the very first one.

As for the best - there are so many great ones to choose from . . .

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0659.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html
and so many more

but if I'd have to choose just one, it would be
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html

DaggerPen

2013-05-05, 06:14 AM

I'm a bit confused about what he was supposed to be warning Hinjo about? V never threatened Hinjo, and was just leaving. I don't consider telling Hinjo how Kubota really died to be warning him of anything, because there wasn't really anything to be warned about. Informing, yes, but that's something that would have hurt Vaarsuvius without really benefiting Hinjo in any way. I can see Elan having had enough respect for V left to lie about the circumstances of Kubota's death when telling the truth wouldn't have really done anyone any good.

martianmister

2013-05-05, 07:32 AM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html

My new favourite. Especially the sixth panel. panel eight is fun as well!
:biggrin:

Chad30

2013-05-05, 08:35 AM

This last one is definitely up there. Mainly for me because we get to see how the new move works.

Unisus

2013-05-05, 09:04 AM

...and there i was about to set the newest strip as my new least favourite...

It's just that brilliant that i fell for it - i even thought the killing of Xykon had somehow triggered the runes. It took me a second look to notice that there must be something wrong, and then i found the truth. So definitly the new one is not one of the worst, but one of the best strips.

And on our mathematical problem: i don't see where the linked article proves that 0 and 1 can not be probabilities - you could as well say that 0 is no number at all, as you can write any number x as 1/(x^-1), which is not possible for 0.

JessmanCA

2013-05-05, 12:51 PM

Best: 886.

Worst: Probably one of the Miko strips.

LuisDantas

2013-05-05, 01:43 PM

I'm a bit confused about what he was supposed to be warning Hinjo about?

That Vaarsuvius was dangerously impulsive and ill-discerning at the time. And that he had just commited a crime under Hinjo's jurisdiction, by slaying Kubota on the spot.

Last but not least, that would be in V's own best interests as well. The argument that Elan valued friendship "over law" makes no sense to me. Elan failed Vaarsuvius to a small degree by going along with his desire to run wild and becoming his accomplice. He should have kept his promise to tell Hinjo about V's crime.

V never threatened Hinjo, and was just leaving. I don't consider telling Hinjo how Kubota really died to be warning him of anything, because there wasn't really anything to be warned about. Informing, yes, but that's something that would have hurt Vaarsuvius without really benefiting Hinjo in any way.

Hinjo is dealing with very serious matters and counting with the cooperation of the Order members - who, it must be noted, he has been protecting and feeding as well. To fail to warn him of such a dangerous development is inexcusable.

I can see Elan having had enough respect for V left to lie about the circumstances of Kubota's death when telling the truth wouldn't have really done anyone any good.

I could as well. Up until the moment V slew Kubota. Then it was over and done, and Elan had only a single path of action ahead of him, "chaotic" or else.

Mind you, Vaarsuvius was and is still my favorite member of the Order, but all the same...

LuisDantas

2013-05-05, 01:49 PM

And yes, #886 is a new favorite.

Between the nice jokes, V's return, Roy's superb showing against Xykon, and Belkar dying almost as an accident (which is how I wanted it to happen),

it was the most satisfying in a long while.

Now to deal with the cliffhanger...

Too bad that, since Belkar is still standing and Vaarsuvius absent, they must have imagined the whole encounter instead of falling under control of the runes after Xykon's death.

Olinser

2013-05-05, 02:56 PM

This last one is definitely up there. Mainly for me because we get to see how the new move works.

I would like to point out a flaw in your line of reasoning. We don't get to see how it works.

We get to see how Roy BELIEVES it will work. V not being damaged, no Blackwing present (Roy apparently can't see the familiar, and doesn't know that V was hurt), Redcloak still wearing the phylactery and patch on the wrong eye (due to Roy not knowing about the holy symbol switch, and not knowing which eye O'Chul took), points very much to this being a personal fantasy illusion.

YMMV on how effective it will actually be against the real Xykon.

My impression was that this was basically Roy's personal fantasy - Belkar dying really gave it away. Dying, or the illusion of dying in any form is sufficient to break just about any illusion, though the backlash may render you unconscious/damaged/whatever. Yet Belkar appears to still be happily under the enchantment, leading me to believe that he is experiencing a completely different scenario.

Notice that Haley and even V simply served in supporting roles to him literally soloing Xykon. Even Xykon suddenly remembering his name at the end screams that this is Roy's personal fantasy.

I'm kind of hoping we get another panel or two of each of the other's fantasies :smallsmile:

Chad30

2013-05-05, 03:44 PM

Actually you're right. This is just how Roy thinks or hopes it will work. Still, excellent strip in my opinion.

I would like to see what the others see, but have it condensed into one strip. I wouldn't want a whole strip for all four of them, including Scruffy.

WastedTalent

2013-05-07, 08:32 AM

Tough to decide, with nearly 900 awesome comics and counting.

There are too many great moments to pick a single one, I think.
Since I rather enjoy dramatic splash pages these deserve praise:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html

Also love Redcloak being the awesome ruthless machiavellan mastermind he is:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html

I suppose for the 'worst' this one deserves mention - The 'lizgreaper' joke was just lame.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html

But each comic page has its part in the overall story, and I enjoy each and every one of them, even if an individual joke falls flat every now and then.

veti

2013-05-07, 09:30 AM

I don't understand the urge to judge comics by the political correctness of the opinions expressed therein. That seems to be missing the point of a "story" by a country mile. I judge them by how much I enjoy re-reading them.

Best: "Anyone ELSE wanna discuss my creature type with me? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html)" Seriously, if you don't find that strip hilarious, you need to find a better D&D group, because yours is clinically dead.

Honourable mention: Elan's eulogy for Therkla (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0598.html).

"This coming from someone who was just forced into a long-distance relationship with their own body. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html)"

"seem very competent at core rampaging skill set (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html)"

"Gordium called - they have a knot that you may want to take a look at. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html)"

Joint worst: first (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html) dates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html). No humour, no characterisation, no drama, nothing.

Kish

2013-05-07, 08:17 PM

I don't understand the urge to judge comics by the political correctness of the opinions expressed therein.
*scans the thread for someone saying, "My opinion on this strip is due to its political correctness or lack thereof*
*unsurprisingly, doesn't find it*

I don't understand the urge to strawman unspecified people who have expressed that they care about morality in fiction, so I guess we're even there.

R-Group

2013-05-07, 09:19 PM

*scans the thread for someone saying, "My opinion on this strip is due to its political correctness or lack thereof*
*unsurprisingly, doesn't find it*

Aren't there several posts back on pages two and three involving the latent sexism of the male PC's, namely Elan and Belkar, and to some extent Durkon? That could conceivably be considered a Political Correctness issue. I wouldn't really call it a strawman either, as it isn't exactly an attack upon anyone by the exaggeration of their opinions or arguments. It seems to me that Veti is just making a statement of his own opinions on the "point of a story".

But that's not important to the topic:

Best strip for me has probably been #657 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html), since I really enjoyed Xykon's "Power Speech". And while I certainly had no wish for Vaarsuvius to die, she has never been one of my favorite characters, and I wasn't remiss that she was soundly defeated.

The worst, is more likely #460 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html). I think I share the opinion of a good number of people that Miko was tiresome and aggravating. I was specifically glad when she was placed in prison, as I believed she would finally be out of the picture so the OOTS could return to dealing directly with Xykon. Unfortunately, this strip released her to once more run rampant, even if in the end it was for the better, preventing Xykon from claiming the Gate.

Olinser

2013-05-07, 09:32 PM

Aren't there several posts back on pages two and three involving the latent sexism of the male PC's, namely Elan and Belkar, and to some extent Durkon? That could conceivably be considered a Political Correctness issue. I wouldn't really call it a strawman either, as it isn't exactly an attack upon anyone by the exaggeration of their opinions or arguments. It seems to me that Veti is just making a statement of his own opinions on the "point of a story".

But that's not important to the topic:

Best strip for me has probably been #657 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html), since I really enjoyed Xykon's "Power Speech". And while I certainly had no wish for Vaarsuvius to die, she has never been one of my favorite characters, and I wasn't remiss that she was soundly defeated.

The worst, is more likely #460 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html). I think I share the opinion of a good number of people that Miko was tiresome and aggravating. I was specifically glad when she was placed in prison, as I believed she would finally be out of the picture so the OOTS could return to dealing directly with Xykon. Unfortunately, this strip released her to once more run rampant, even if in the end it was for the better, preventing Xykon from claiming the Gate.

What better end are you talking about? Soon was about to destroy Xykon and Redcloak. Then hang out killing any goblin stupid enough to fight an epic-level paladin ghost, smash Xykon as he tries to regenerate, and wait until the OOTS managed to get back to the throne room so he could tell them how to destroy the phylactery.

Miko screwed everything up. Not only did she unnecessarily destroy the Gate, she literally saved Xykon and Redcloak from destruction.

R-Group

2013-05-07, 10:13 PM

What better end are you talking about? Soon was about to destroy Xykon and Redcloak. Then hang out killing any goblin stupid enough to fight an epic-level paladin ghost, smash Xykon as he tries to regenerate, and wait until the OOTS managed to get back to the throne room so he could tell them how to destroy the phylactery.

Miko screwed everything up. Not only did she unnecessarily destroy the Gate, she literally saved Xykon and Redcloak from destruction.

Geez. I actually COMPLETELY forgot that that even happened. Beforehand, I was thinking that Xykon had killed nearly all of the Paladin Ghosts with Redcloak's assistance, and then almost won when Miko smashed the gate. Upon reading this, I pulled out my copy of War and XP's (so I wouldn't have to scan the archive for the strip), and sure enough there it is. Shows what I know.

Of course, reading it all again did happen to remind me, once more, of my dislike towards Miko. She never stops thinking that she's the center of it all, does she? I must concede that her character was quite well written and very unique, but no less chafing.

Chad30

2013-05-08, 07:59 AM

Aren't there several posts back on pages two and three involving the latent sexism of the male PC's, namely Elan and Belkar, and to some extent Durkon? That could conceivably be considered a Political Correctness issue. I wouldn't really call it a strawman either, as it isn't exactly an attack upon anyone by the exaggeration of their opinions or arguments. It seems to me that Veti is just making a statement of his own opinions on the "point of a story".

But that's not important to the topic:

Best strip for me has probably been #657 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html), since I really enjoyed Xykon's "Power Speech". And while I certainly had no wish for Vaarsuvius to die, she has never been one of my favorite characters, and I wasn't remiss that she was soundly defeated.

The worst, is more likely #460 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html). I think I share the opinion of a good number of people that Miko was tiresome and aggravating. I was specifically glad when she was placed in prison, as I believed she would finally be out of the picture so the OOTS could return to dealing directly with Xykon. Unfortunately, this strip released her to once more run rampant, even if in the end it was for the better, preventing Xykon from claiming the Gate.

It wasn't for the better. Had she not destroyed the gate, Xykon, Redcloak, and his phylactery would be destroyed.

Edit: Already stated, actually. Oops. I'm sure Miko wasn't meant to be sympathetic. The only time she was tolerable was when she started actually listening to someone. Which was right before she died.

R-Group

2013-05-08, 08:13 AM

I'm sure Miko wasn't meant to be sympathetic. The only time she was tolerable was when she started actually listening to someone. Which was right before she died.

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that she wasn't meant to be sympathetic. I'm not even sure it would be possible to make a character like that feel sympathetic, at least not until some sort of atonement or character growth. Both things that Miko never received until it was much too late.

Chad30

2013-05-08, 09:25 AM

Yeah. I would be a good character arc if someone was raised up like that, but started hanging out with more neutral or chaotic good people, and learned to loosen up a little while still being lawful good. It might be cool if you had a knight templar character that had to team up with a neutral good character, and a lawful neutral character, and act as a mediator while exploring both sides.

Miko was none of this, of course, and that's fine. She served a purpose of deconstructing lawful good, and showing how lawful doesn't equal good, and good isn't always nice.

Angel Bob

2013-05-08, 03:46 PM

I hardly like this strip enough to consider it one of the best, but it is noteworthy because it's one of the few Dungeon Crawlin' Fools strips that I actually enjoy in retrospect.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html

Especially Redcloak's first attempt to "speak with dead." XD

Reddish Mage

2013-05-09, 10:22 AM

Best. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)
Worst. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

(I also wonder what "trope" Xelbiuj is referring to; I can guess that "ignoring D&D magic rules" is meant to mean "there's no way to build a backdoor into a spell.")

I think Xelbiuj is referring to the Mark of Justice spell, which can only be defeated by a password as well as remove curse. The dismissal of the death ward is the SECOND time a password is used to dismiss a spell.

Kish

2013-05-09, 11:02 AM

S/he has declined to clarify himself/herself, so that's as good a guess as any. That is--as good a guess as any guess that presumes s/he is misusing the word; the only "trope" there is the recursive trope of people using the word "trope" to mean "something that happened a couple times that I didn't like."

Astrella

2013-05-09, 11:15 AM

I just really adore Gannji and Enor. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html)

Reddish Mage

2013-05-09, 01:20 PM

I find most of the worst strips mentioned absolutely hilarious!

Here's mine worst strip, cause its all we had for months.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html

This claim was already undermined by my chuckles as I post.

messy1349

2013-07-24, 10:12 AM

JSSheridan

2013-07-24, 10:59 AM

Hands down it is 355 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html).

Giant put a strip in the strip, and even it it doesn't show breast, it's still the best.

Vinsfeld

2013-07-24, 12:04 PM

Hands down it is 355 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html).

Giant put a strip in the strip, and even it it doesn't show breast, it's still the best.

Stripception? :smallconfused:

rs2excelsior

2013-07-26, 01:25 AM

The whole Siege of Azure City was pure epic. LOTR-style awesomeness but a downer ending that leaves me on the edge of my seat.

We own this city. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html)
Winning the battle isn't on the table anymore. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html)
Ladies and gentlemen, Azure City is officially off the grid. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html)

"Darth V" was V's crowning moment of awesome. Up to the fight with Xykon, yet another O-Chul awesome moment, their counterattack, and one of the best uses of Explosive Runes.

For sheer tension and epicness:
You have often expressed the opinion, Commander, that the only Good goblins- (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) This was actually the first OOTS strip I ever saw, linked as a result of a totally unrelated discussion on another forum. It wasn't until I found the strip (again) that I realized I had seen that one before.
But if you're going to stand here and tell me that you'll expose one of those strings to him? That you're going to be THAT stupid? There's only one rational response to that. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)
Perhaps I SHOULD make more children. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html)
My aid is mine to give-or withdraw-as I see fit. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html) (and the following strip)

As far as funny... too many to count. But, just to give some credit to earlier strips, Tiny man is violating Gortok's personal space! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0132.html) and The irony is staggering, sir, yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html) are two of the best.

Least favorite arc is the desert. Though it gets us Tarquin, Malack, and two of the most tense strips in the comic.

David Argall

2013-07-26, 12:10 PM

I rise to the defense of those nominated for worst. While as a group, they are in the lower half [which by definition half of any group have to be], they are mostly merely below average, and some are outstanding in a positive way.
In particular, 123 with the bumbling listeners should be erased from any contest for worst. The basic objection amount to "I hate sex", which is not a standard shared by most of the audience, and even by that standard, 35 [a fine strip] is more clearly objectionable by that same standard. After all, the boys in 123 get punished for their "sin".

Now 91 and 301 are [un]worthy candidates for worst, being just interruptions of the story, I would submit that 600 is the worst. Granted, the X00 crowd are proper targets for a laugh, but parody their faith that certain # will be big and special by having a dull elevator ride? That just hurts the rest of us.