Mental Ability Score Based Character?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Using only the classes from the PhB and DMG, and avoiding spell casting.

Are there good builds that can revolve around Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom?

Note: Outside feats and variants of classes are still allowed, just not brand new classes outside of core.

Out of core races and such are also allowed.

[Marnath]

Using only the classes from the PhB and DMG, and avoiding spell casting.

Are there good builds that can revolve around Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom?

Note: Outside feats and variants of classes are still allowed, just not brand new classes outside of core.

Out of core races and such are also allowed.

Changeling social skills rogue with persona immersion feat and assume quirk skill trick. Bam, you are the worlds greatest spy.

[Z3ro]

In a campaign I played in, one of the players made a totally interesting character out of a simple formula; high intelligence fighter. Take a feat (educated I think) giving all knowledges as class skills. Take knowledge skills. Be a know-it-all. Add knowledge devotion for a bit of extra damage.

Not the most mechanically sound character, but definetely one of the most unique and interesting.

[Feralventas]

Really?

Really really?

Any spellcasting class can and will use a high mental stat. Constitution is usually a close 2nd but as long as you've got that high int/wis/cha score, you're golden.

If you feel a need to apply all three, go Mystic Theurge.

Alternatively, high Int rogue gets all the skill points, and if you play a solidly good-aligned one you can make Wisdom your to-hit stat via Intuitive Attack, since most of your damage comes from sneak attack dice anyway.

Ranger likewise, high int for skills, high Wisdom for attacks (and for it's few spells), damage from multiple-attacks. Don't even need to be Good for the Ranger though; Zen Archery will allow wisdom to-hit for ranged attacks.

[Fouredged Sword]

Wildshape ranger into MOMF. Get the elf feat that replaces Con with Int for HP. Who cares what your physical stats are. Be vulnerable for all you care.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I remember Changeling, and I agree that may be the best route to go again.

Educated and Knowledge Devotion sound good too, I'll just need to prioritize my knowledge skills if I want to invest in skills other than Knowledge.


Really?

Really really?

Any spellcasting class can and will use a high mental stat. Constitution is usually a close 2nd but as long as you've got that high int/wis/cha score, you're golden.


And I go back to my first post...


Using only the classes from the PhB and DMG, and avoiding spell casting.


Did you even read beyond the topic title?

[Vizzerdrix]

Avoiding spell casting? Rogue could work. Int for skills. Cha to face. Wis for shapesand shenanigans.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Note, my ability scores to work with are the following

17, 14, 12, 11, 10, 10

Starting at Level 8 so the 2 points go to 17 and 11 do it's now:

18, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10

Also I re-read changeling rogue and something concerns me.

Changeling rogue only covers level 1, 3 and 8.

Does this mean I only get the 10+Int Skill points for three levels?
If so I'm tempted to go human instead.

Also note this is gestalt, so would one level of Bard work so I don't need to spend a feat to make all knowledge skills class skills?

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Where once there were two, now there shall be one!

(Sorry about the double-post, I don't know what happened)

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Which elf feat adds intelligence, rather than constitution, to HP? Mind over Body only replaces con with int at first level, it's pretty much worse straight-up worse than toughness.

[Greenish]

Which elf feat adds intelligence, rather than constitution, to HP?Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Dragon Mag #319.

[Fouredged Sword]

Vulnerable Grey elf Wildshape Ranger 5 / MoMF 10 / Ranger 5

Your stats would be
Str - 4
Dex - 8
Con - 4
Int - 22
Wis - 18
Cha - 16

For 8 hours a day you can be wildshaped into something else to replace your Str, Dex, and Con for everything but HP, and you get your HP from Int.

Use the ranger skillpoints + skyhigh int to invest in Knowledge Devotion.

[dascarletm]

Vulnerable Grey elf Wildshape Ranger 5 / MoMF 10 / Ranger 5

Your stats would be
Str - 4
Dex - 8
Con - 4
Int - 22
Wis - 18
Cha - 16

For 8 hours a day you can be wildshaped into something else to replace your Str, Dex, and Con for everything but HP, and you get your HP from Int.

Use the ranger skillpoints + skyhigh int to invest in Knowledge Devotion.

be careful one stray ray of enfeeblement will have you kissing the ground.

[Marnath]

Note, my ability scores to work with are the following

17, 14, 12, 11, 10, 10

Starting at Level 8 so the 2 points go to 17 and 11 do it's now:

18, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10

Also I re-read changeling rogue and something concerns me.

Changeling rogue only covers level 1, 3 and 8.

Does this mean I only get the 10+Int Skill points for three levels?
If so I'm tempted to go human instead.

Also note this is gestalt, so would one level of Bard work so I don't need to spend a feat to make all knowledge skills class skills?

The real reason to take Changeling Rogue 1 is for Social Intuition, and the ability to shapeshift into other people obviously.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Dragon Mag #319.

Ah, that's what I get for not being familiar with Dragon Magazine. Yeah, if that's in play, venerable Wildshape ranger all the way.

[Zaq]

Hmm. Maybe some combination of Unarmed Swordsage, Intuitive Attack, Knowledge Devotion, and a Smite-heavy mix?

Edit: Whoop, missed PHB/DMG-only. I think you're outta luck, pretty much.

On second thought . . . well, maybe some hideous mix of Monk and Paladin? Get a second smite from being a killoren, and use Sapphire Smite (req. 13 CON) to get more per day? Not sure where you'll get the good Knowledge skills from for Knowledge Devotion, though. It'd take way too many feats to actually be worthwhile, most likely.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Changeling Rogue 1 means you're getting x4 on the 10+ int skill points, which is awesome, and I really like the trapfinding replacement it gives, too.

I just wanted to 2nd the Wild Shape Ranger into MoMF idea. I love that build, want to play it someday...

[GreenETC]

Also I re-read changeling rogue and something concerns me.

Changeling rogue only covers level 1, 3 and 8.

Does this mean I only get the 10+Int Skill points for three levels?
If so I'm tempted to go human instead.

Yes, that's how it works, but trust me, that is already more skill points than you will most likely ever need anyway, and regular rogue only gets 2 less. On top of that, Social Intuition and the Mutable Anatomy ability are both fan-damn-tastic. The Minor Lore thing is okay, especially if you are going Knowledge Devotion, so if you're already a Changeling and already a Rogue, you might as well.

Not to mention a Changeling Rogue is probably one of the best ways to deal with the fact that you'll have low damage and HP without physical stats, via Disguise and Sneak Attack.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Note to all:

I should also note that I don't want this character to become too gear dependent.

Reason being, our DM has openly admitted there will be times when he will take our gear away and we should expect to never see it again.

When I highlighted that was screwing over with WBL balance his response was "If you don't like it then don't play" so before people give advice around 'talk him out of it', it won't work.

He says his 'balancing' factor is he'll
1. Be more generous with loot
2. Allow a resource trading system
Ex: I buy 100gp of wheat from Town A, I sell it in Town B for 180gp

However he states that things can go wrong like 'rodents may infect products' etc. He says skills can be used for this but gives no specifics (even when asked for specifics) on this other than saying Apprasail may have a role, but he means that more in 'you know you may sell it in ______ for _____'.

So... I guess this leads to the questions...

1. Where can I invest my gold where my investments can't be lost from a 'lose your gear' situation?

2. What general advice would you give for a resource trading system like detailed above?

3. Can you think of any skills that might help with such a feature?

@All the unquoted posts

I requested Changeling Rogue to the DM and it wasn't approved.

So the option I'm looking for atm is Human Rogue.


Vulnerable Grey elf Wildshape Ranger 5 / MoMF 10 / Ranger 5

Your stats would be
Str - 4
Dex - 8
Con - 4
Int - 22
Wis - 18
Cha - 16

For 8 hours a day you can be wildshaped into something else to replace your Str, Dex, and Con for everything but HP, and you get your HP from Int.

Use the ranger skillpoints + skyhigh int to invest in Knowledge Devotion.

MoMF is an out of core class which means the DM won't allow it.

Also he added a house rule where your ability scores don't change the older you get for any character because he knows plenty old people who are still strong and fit.


Hmm. Maybe some combination of Unarmed Swordsage, Intuitive Attack, Knowledge Devotion, and a Smite-heavy mix?

Edit: Whoop, missed PHB/DMG-only. I think you're outta luck, pretty much.

On second thought . . . well, maybe some hideous mix of Monk and Paladin? Get a second smite from being a killoren, and use Sapphire Smite (req. 13 CON) to get more per day? Not sure where you'll get the good Knowledge skills from for Knowledge Devotion, though. It'd take way too many feats to actually be worthwhile, most likely.

I see where you're coming from with this and I like the idea, but one of the reasons I want to be Mental Ability based is so I can play a smart & social character, that's something normally represented well by having a lot of skill points to draw from.

[Urpriest]

snip

I think you should tell us the full list of houserules. For example, your OP said out of core races were fine, yet apparently you can't play a Changeling, an MMIII race. Also, I'm curious what in particular is deflecting you from playing a caster, is it a restriction from the DM's side, or yours?

[Gwazi Magnum]

I think you should tell us the full list of houserules. For example, your OP said out of core races were fine, yet apparently you can't play a Changeling, an MMIII race. Also, I'm curious what in particular is deflecting you from playing a caster, is it a restriction from the DM's side, or yours?

We're considering core to be: PH 1B, DMG 1 & MM 1

The non-spellcasting was originally a player set restriction because we didn't like the fact how the spell casters eventually became much more powerful than the rest of the party and over shadowed them.

And we didn't want to solve this by making everyone spell casters so we made it so no one were to pick a class with a spell tree, and if they did it would be houseruled/homebrewed or variant used to find a suitable compromise.

But since Druid, Cleric, Wizard and Sorcerer are all about their spell trees they are outright not allowed.

The DM later took it a step further though by stating anything given any spell like abilities isn't allowed. So stuff like Drow and Gnome can't be used now either.

And before you ask, no the DM's monsters are not under similiar restrictions.

[Juntao112]

Using only the classes from the PhB and DMG, and avoiding spell casting.

Are there good builds that can revolve around Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom?

Note: Outside feats and variants of classes are still allowed, just not brand new classes outside of core.

Out of core races and such are also allowed.

Sounds like it's time to duel (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?303808-It-s-Time-To-Duel!)!

[Gwazi Magnum]

Does anyone know any good ways to add +2 to Int, Cha or Wis?

With my rolled scores of: 17, 14, 12, 11, 10, 10

I'm almost forced to even it out so it's: 18, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10

Now since I'm going for human (+Feat & SP) I get no racial modifiers, but I want INT, WIS and CHA to all be at least 14 so no one can claim "You're not that good in that area".

Does anyone know any good ways to increase them for a level 8 with the two level ups already spent?

Note: LA+ Racial Templates could work, but I can't take anything that throws in spells to cast, and I'd rather the character still remain human.

Not human but covered with scales, or rotting flesh or giant ass wings.


Sounds like it's time to duel (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?303808-It-s-Time-To-Duel!)!

I dabbled with the Duelist before, but it doesn't really fit the concept for my current character.

Concept for this guy is... he's not that strong but he sure is smart and likeable.

[Juntao112]

Maybe you want a bard.

[Urpriest]

We're considering core to be: PH 1B, DMG 1 & MM 1

The non-spellcasting was originally a player set restriction because we didn't like the fact how the spell casters eventually became much more powerful than the rest of the party and over shadowed them.

And we didn't want to solve this by making everyone spell casters so we made it so no one were to pick a class with a spell tree, and if they did it would be houseruled/homebrewed or variant used to find a suitable compromise.

But since Druid, Cleric, Wizard and Sorcerer are all about their spell trees they are outright not allowed.

The DM later took it a step further though by stating anything given any spell like abilities isn't allowed. So stuff like Drow and Gnome can't be used now either.

And before you ask, no the DM's monsters are not under similiar restrictions.

So is the bolded rule the reason you can't do Changeling? So you can still do non-core races if they don't have SLAs or anything like SLAs? Or are you now restricted to core races?

You can still use non-core feats and ACFs and the like, right?

Is your goal to have high mental stats in order to make good use of the DM's nebulous trading system? Or can that be ignored in favor of more general social and knowledge competence?

Your scores aren't high enough to have three good mentals, so you're going to need to prioritize one. I'd like to get a better idea of which would be the best choice.

Edit: After seeing your most recent comment: you can get away from "you aren't really that good at that" comments if you have skill points. Then your low ability score won't matter, you'll have the training to act differently. With core-only classes that pretty much sticks you with Rogue, at least for the first few levels to get a baseline competence.

Also, just clarifying, you said earlier this is gestalt, right?

[Gwazi Magnum]

So is the bolded rule the reason you can't do Changeling? So you can still do non-core races if they don't have SLAs or anything like SLAs? Or are you now restricted to core races?

You can still use non-core feats and ACFs and the like, right?

Is your goal to have high mental stats in order to make good use of the DM's nebulous trading system? Or can that be ignored in favor of more general social and knowledge competence?

Your scores aren't high enough to have three good mentals, so you're going to need to prioritize one. I'd like to get a better idea of which would be the best choice.

Edit: After seeing your most recent comment: you can get away from "you aren't really that good at that" comments if you have skill points. Then your low ability score won't matter, you'll have the training to act differently. With core-only classes that pretty much sticks you with Rogue, at least for the first few levels to get a baseline competence.

Also, just clarifying, you said earlier this is gestalt, right?

Races that aren't core are still allowed.

DM didn't want Changeling because he didn't want players having the Changeling change shape spell like ability when the game it meant to be mostly spell free for the players (save one or two spells like true seeing or fly where without them some enemies are impossible to fight).

High scores to help with the trading system would be a nice bonus, but the reason I want them to 14 each for more social and knowledge competence.

I'm aiming for someone who is mainly very knowledgeable and skilled, he knows at lot and is consulted to a lot for his know how.

However I want him to be social too, not so much so that he overpowers the party's face, my guy isn't the face of the party. But I want him to be more of a secondary face, like for example he takes charge when the face is gone, or can gather info and get along well with others as well.

Charisma point is so he is also the likeable kind of person that others are drawn too rather than he needs to start a speech or something (Diplomacy) to get liked/noticed.

Also yes this is Gestalt.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Maybe you want a bard.

Bardic Knowledge is nice, but I don't want the bardic music (not worth the skill point investment for me) and I just don't like the idea of my person randomly bursting into song in battle.

Plus he has a big spell tree which I wouldn't be able to use and I can't find anything that would work as a good variant in that regard.

[Juntao112]

I'm aiming for someone who is mainly very knowledgeable and skilled, he knows at lot and is consulted to a lot for his know how.Some sort of Expert?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Some sort of Expert?

Something like that, but I'd rather not use the expert NPC class.

[Urpriest]

Races that aren't core are still allowed.

DM didn't want Changeling because he didn't want players having the Changeling change shape spell like ability when the game it meant to be mostly spell free for the players (save one or two spells like true seeing or fly where without them some enemies are impossible to fight).

High scores to help with the trading system would be a nice bonus, but the reason I want them to 14 each for more social and knowledge competence.

I'm aiming for someone who is mainly very knowledgeable and skilled, he knows at lot and is consulted to a lot for his know how.

However I want him to be social too, not so much so that he overpowers the party's face, my guy isn't the face of the party. But I want him to be more of a secondary face, like for example he takes charge when the face is gone, or can gather info and get along well with others as well.

Charisma point is so he is also the likeable kind of person that others are drawn too rather than he needs to start a speech or something (Diplomacy) to get liked/noticed.

Also yes this is Gestalt.

Hmm...how does your DM handle LA for gestalt? One side, or both? What about RHD?

Here's how I see things, ability score-wise:

First, let's talk about skills. You want to be an all-around smart fellow but not step on the party face's toes, so you (as far as I understand from what you've said) won't be taking ranks in social skills. This leaves you with Knowledge skills, Appraise, typical Rogue skills like Disable Device, perception skills, a few stragglers like Heal, and Sense Motive (which might be covered by your party face). Are there any of those categories that you feel comfortable skipping, or any that are especially high priority for you?

Intelligence gives you more skill points, and hence more coverage of the above. Intelligence also covers solving puzzles and making complicated plans, so for a campaign where the DM is anal about roleplaying your mental scores (sounds like this is your situation), Intelligence is quite possibly the most important attribute, provided the real you is good enough at puzzles and plans to fill in the gaps.

Wisdom covers Will saves, which you can get good enough by taking a class with a good save in Will since you're gestalt, and perception skills, which can also be addressed with skill points. Wisdom, according to the PHB, covers "willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition", so these should be the only ways in which a low Wis can affect your roleplaying. Of those, a good Will save covers willpower, skill points in perception skills cover perception, and intuition is close enough to what intelligence can give you. The only thing left over is common sense, and while lacking common sense is bad, having more than average gets you very little. Wisdom-based common sense will keep you from making stupid mistakes, but you only need 10 or 12 Wisdom to get that benefit. 14 is unnecessary.

Charisma, finally, boosts social skills (which you don't need) and general social competence. If you feel like you need a 14 for that, go for it, but it will be tough to leverage much out of it (though with Paladin levels you can do a bit).

Based on this, I'd recommend having a high Int and a 14 Cha, and making a mostly Int-focused build.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Hmm...how does your DM handle LA for gestalt? One side, or both? What about RHD?

Here's how I see things, ability score-wise:

First, let's talk about skills. You want to be an all-around smart fellow but not step on the party face's toes, so you (as far as I understand from what you've said) won't be taking ranks in social skills. This leaves you with Knowledge skills, Appraise, typical Rogue skills like Disable Device, perception skills, a few stragglers like Heal, and Sense Motive (which might be covered by your party face). Are there any of those categories that you feel comfortable skipping, or any that are especially high priority for you?

Intelligence gives you more skill points, and hence more coverage of the above. Intelligence also covers solving puzzles and making complicated plans, so for a campaign where the DM is anal about roleplaying your mental scores (sounds like this is your situation), Intelligence is quite possibly the most important attribute, provided the real you is good enough at puzzles and plans to fill in the gaps.

Wisdom covers Will saves, which you can get good enough by taking a class with a good save in Will since you're gestalt, and perception skills, which can also be addressed with skill points. Wisdom, according to the PHB, covers "willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition", so these should be the only ways in which a low Wis can affect your roleplaying. Of those, a good Will save covers willpower, skill points in perception skills cover perception, and intuition is close enough to what intelligence can give you. The only thing left over is common sense, and while lacking common sense is bad, having more than average gets you very little. Wisdom-based common sense will keep you from making stupid mistakes, but you only need 10 or 12 Wisdom to get that benefit. 14 is unnecessary.

Charisma, finally, boosts social skills (which you don't need) and general social competence. If you feel like you need a 14 for that, go for it, but it will be tough to leverage much out of it (though with Paladin levels you can do a bit).

Based on this, I'd recommend having a high Int and a 14 Cha, and making a mostly Int-focused build.

Mostly got it right.

Though one of my main investments is planned to be different Knowledge skills (taking the educated and university feats).

Also I do planned to invest in some social skills, but I don't them to be raised so high that it outdoes the face, but high enough my character can handle social situations himself as well.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Also, one concept I'm thinking off is my character may of be dark origin/bloodline or taken part in a dark ritual and he is trying to hide this from the rest of the party.

Anyone know of any templates that can work for something like that?
If anything I'd like it to compliment intelligence, wisdom and/or charisma.

[Urpriest]

Mostly got it right.

Though one of my main investments is planned to be different Knowledge skills (taking the educated and university feats).

Also I do planned to invest in some social skills, but I don't them to be raised so high that it outdoes the face, but high enough my character can handle social situations himself as well.

What's the University feat?

Given that you're doing Gestalt you may not need Education. If you've got a class with most of the Knowledges at first level, then Able Learner may be a better choice.

Let's talk a bit about what your character is like as a combatant. Are you averse to giving the character combat abilities? Conversely, is this the sort of game where you need a certain level of combat competence to contribute? If so, are there any restrictions on fighting styles, or is it a "as long as it gets me benefit from a high mental score" situation?

It's hard to find templates that benefit your mentals without SLAs or gross physical changes, but I'll look around some. How do you feel about stealth? With a high Int you can invest in stealth skills enough to make a fairly stealthy character, and something like Dark (Tome of Magic) would help out with that.

[Gwazi Magnum]

What's the University feat?

Given that you're doing Gestalt you may not need Education. If you've got a class with most of the Knowledges at first level, then Able Learner may be a better choice.

Let's talk a bit about what your character is like as a combatant. Are you averse to giving the character combat abilities? Conversely, is this the sort of game where you need a certain level of combat competence to contribute? If so, are there any restrictions on fighting styles, or is it a "as long as it gets me benefit from a high mental score" situation?

It's hard to find templates that benefit your mentals without SLAs or gross physical changes, but I'll look around some. How do you feel about stealth? With a high Int you can invest in stealth skills enough to make a fairly stealthy character, and something like Dark (Tome of Magic) would help out with that.

It's a feat many consider home brew because it's from a d20 book, although approved for use in d&d 3.5 that lets you gain +2 Skill points per level (+8 character creation).

For combat, I'm making someone who can at least hold his own in battle. Preferably a way to fight both ranged and melee. I'm taking the Martial Rogue variant to get a few feats down for combat purposes, and because I find sneak attack to be very circumstantial where if the enemy does certain things you can't use it and it doesn't even work a good number of enemies (without massive feat investment).

I prefer those that benefit from high mental scores, but any fighting style where the only used up feats would be from martial rogues fighter bonus feats would work.

Some stealth skills may be nice. Currently my set up get's me 14 skill points per level (before the level 4 INT boost), (3 Intelligence + 8 Rogue + 1 Human + 2 University) but a good number of those may end up going into appraisal, knowledge and social skills.

I don't know about tome of magic, but know stuff like maneuvers and stances from the tome of battle aren't allowed.

Also I noticed I forget to answer your question last time on LA and HD earlier, sorry about that.
HD and LA can be loaded onto one of the two class levels, and not be divided among both.

[Urpriest]

It's a feat many consider home brew because it's from a d20 book, although approved for use in d&d 3.5 that lets you gain +2 Skill points per level (+8 character creation).

For combat, I'm making someone who can at least hold his own in battle. Preferably a way to fight both ranged and melee. I'm taking the Martial Rogue variant to get a few feats down for combat purposes, and because I find sneak attack to be very circumstantial where if the enemy does certain things you can't use it and it doesn't even work a good number of enemies (without massive feat investment).

I prefer those that benefit from high mental scores, but any fighting style where the only used up feats would be from martial rogues fighter bonus feats would work.

Some stealth skills may be nice. Currently my set up get's me 14 skill points per level (before the level 4 INT boost), (3 Intelligence + 8 Rogue + 1 Human + 2 University) but a good number of those may end up going into appraisal, knowledge and social skills.

I don't know about tome of magic, but know stuff like maneuvers and stances from the tome of battle aren't allowed.

Also I noticed I forget to answer your question last time on LA and HD earlier, sorry about that.
HD and LA can be loaded onto one of the two class levels, and not be divided among both.

What book/publisher is University from? Can you use other stuff from that publisher? That might open up your options a lot. I had been assuming you could only use WotC-published D&D 3.5 material.

Martial Rogue probably won't be worth it. Sneak Attack is situational, yes (though there are ACFs, like Lightbringer Penetrating Strike from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape, that can partially bypass that issue at minimal cost), but most of the feats you could pick up would also be situational, potentially moreso (there are lots of things you can sneak attack but can't reliably trip, for example). Plus, the other side of your gestalt can have Fighter levels if you need feats.

There isn't anything you have access to that lets you add Int to attack, and without serious Cha boosts (doubtful since pretty much anything like that will make you look inhuman or give SLAs) you won't get much mileage out of Cha-to-hit, so you're going to want a substantial bonus to either Dex or Str. There's probably either a template or human-looking race that can do that for you.

Since you've got access to non-core feats (and remind me what the magic item situation looks like?) I'd recommend a Curmudgeon-style Rogue, since you probably won't be able to pull off a heavy TWF focus even with your other side being full BAB. Have you seen Curmudgeon's posts on the subject, or do you need a summary? One of the nice aspects is that Curmudgeon-rogues tend to be switch-hitters, doing both ranged and melee attacks, which is otherwise tricky since ranged+melee is usually only viable in throwing builds, which require PrCs to work properly.

[Gwazi Magnum]

What book/publisher is University from? Can you use other stuff from that publisher? That might open up your options a lot. I had been assuming you could only use WotC-published D&D 3.5 material.

Martial Rogue probably won't be worth it. Sneak Attack is situational, yes (though there are ACFs, like Lightbringer Penetrating Strike from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape, that can partially bypass that issue at minimal cost), but most of the feats you could pick up would also be situational, potentially moreso (there are lots of things you can sneak attack but can't reliably trip, for example). Plus, the other side of your gestalt can have Fighter levels if you need feats.

There isn't anything you have access to that lets you add Int to attack, and without serious Cha boosts (doubtful since pretty much anything like that will make you look inhuman or give SLAs) you won't get much mileage out of Cha-to-hit, so you're going to want a substantial bonus to either Dex or Str. There's probably either a template or human-looking race that can do that for you.

Since you've got access to non-core feats (and remind me what the magic item situation looks like?) I'd recommend a Curmudgeon-style Rogue, since you probably won't be able to pull off a heavy TWF focus even with your other side being full BAB. Have you seen Curmudgeon's posts on the subject, or do you need a summary? One of the nice aspects is that Curmudgeon-rogues tend to be switch-hitters, doing both ranged and melee attacks, which is otherwise tricky since ranged+melee is usually only viable in throwing builds, which require PrCs to work properly.

The feat is from the AEG manual.

Anything that's not from core isn't automatically allowed though, we need to have it approved by the DM first.

He says he wants to approve things so everyone has access to them, but tbh I think he's mostly doing it to get more control over the game and so he make it more challenging by making sure we can't make overly effective characters since he lacks enough d&d knowledge to truly make challenging encounters (against truly effective characters) outside of 'Trolls! I found something you can't even hurt! Mua ha ha ha ha!'.

You have a good point with the Fighter bit, that might be something I should look at.

Though I don't plan to be in anything heavier than light armor for speed and armor check reasons.

For magic items, we are allowed to use magic items, just not those that can be used for purpose of casting spells, (wands, staffs etc.) only exception being for those spells where if without them there would be monsters we just couldn't find anyway to hurt (spells like true seeing, flying etc.)

I sadly have no idea what a Curmudgeon-rogue is however.

[Urpriest]

Curmudgeon is a poster on this forum who, when he's not giving painfully punitive judgements of RAW, tends to be a vocal fan of Rogues. Unlike the common paradigm of Rogues as TWF-blenders, he thinks that a Rogue's fighting style should be fundamentally cautious and versatile.

Hopefully he'll see the thread and comment, otherwise here is an example of the sort of advice he gives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10866689&postcount=4).

Your basic strategy is to always carry a bow and spend the first round making a full attack against any enemies who haven't acted yet (and thus are flat-footed). Only when your more sturdy melee enemies have entered the fray do you move in to flank with them, using Snap Kick rather than TWF to get an extra attack that works on AOOs and standard actions as well as full attacks. Try to get Hide in Plain Sight as soon as possible, and prioritize straight damage and accuracy boosts like Knowledge Devotion and Craven.

[Gavinfoxx]

Expert. No, seriously, Expert.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=380814

See that as a way to use Expert to do what you want...

[Urpriest]

Expert. No, seriously, Expert.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=380814

See that as a way to use Expert to do what you want...

Expert is cute, but is there any reason to go Expert when you can go Rogue (and get the other class skills via the other side of the gestalt)?

[Karnith]

Expert is cute, but is there any reason to go Expert when you can go Rogue (and get the other class skills via the other side of the gestalt)?
There is Iaijutsu Focus, though I would be willing to bet that it won't be allowed in this game.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Curmudgeon is a poster on this forum who, when he's not giving painfully punitive judgements of RAW, tends to be a vocal fan of Rogues. Unlike the common paradigm of Rogues as TWF-blenders, he thinks that a Rogue's fighting style should be fundamentally cautious and versatile.

Hopefully he'll see the thread and comment, otherwise here is an example of the sort of advice he gives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10866689&postcount=4).

Your basic strategy is to always carry a bow and spend the first round making a full attack against any enemies who haven't acted yet (and thus are flat-footed). Only when your more sturdy melee enemies have entered the fray do you move in to flank with them, using Snap Kick rather than TWF to get an extra attack that works on AOOs and standard actions as well as full attacks. Try to get Hide in Plain Sight as soon as possible, and prioritize straight damage and accuracy boosts like Knowledge Devotion and Craven.

It looks interesting, but it looks like he's depending on a high Dexterity.

And with my mental score based rogue concept the highest I can make Dexterity before racial modifers if 12, and that would leave Strength and Constitution at 10. If I were to go fighter for my second class though, why would I spend a feat on snap kick? If it is doesn't provoke an AoO wouldn't it still be pretty weak being unarmed without anything like Monk?

For hide in plain sight, it looks like the only way to do that is wilderness Rogue which also takes away Diplomacy, Gather Info and Appraise as class skills, all three I hoping to either invest fully in or at least invest some points into and I also know Fighter gains none of those back as class skills either.

Also on the topic of skills, are there any knowledge skills outside of the monster ones (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Planes, Nature & Religion) that would be worth any skill points? Outside of the typical one for training.

And I'm still debating if I should take one of those feats like Able Learner or Jack of all Trades since I already have so many class skills and skill points.


Expert. No, seriously, Expert.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=380814

See that as a way to use Expert to do what you want...

Main issue with Expert is I only have 10 skills as class skills, while it is those I choose, Rogue with Education has more than 10 class skills I want and gives enough skill points to master all those different skills.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The point of expert is to pick up the really powerful really obscure splat book skills as class skills.

But seeing how much of an iron fist your DM is handling this game with, fat chance of that working out for you.

[Eldan]

Experts can take Education too.

[Marcus Amakar]

If you’re not adverse to only having 14 Int, then the following build could be attractive.

Race: Hellbred (Infernal Aspect: Spirit)
Alignment: LG

Base Stats: Str 10 Dex 10 Con 11 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 17
After racial modifiers: Str 10 Dex 10 Con 9 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 19
After level boosts: Str 10 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 20

Paladin 3/Fighter 2/Horizon Walker 3//Rogue 1/Bard 1/Rogue 6

With the Paladin levels and feats (such as Snowflake Wardance, hence the bard level) you can get Charisma to saves and whatever else you want.

This build gets full BaB and plenty of miscellaneous goodies (immunity to fear, disease, fatigue with the Desert terrain mastery, +4 bonuses to Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently). Being Hellbred means you get dark vision which can eventually function even in deeper darkness, and after that, telepathy as a supernatural ability.

While the best Planar Ability for Horizon walker (Shifting) is off limit as a spell-like ability, you can still get resistance to fire and/or cold 20, which will be nice if your DM is prone to taking equipment away, and other cool abilities.

Plus with the education and university feats, you can still have the knowledge skills and 3 others pretty much maxed out.

[thethird]

Isn't this the fourth post about this topic? :smallconfused:

Fifth actually.

1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273034), 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274712), 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275476), 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276266).

[Gwazi Magnum]

If you’re not adverse to only having 14 Int, then the following build could be attractive.

Race: Hellbred (Infernal Aspect: Spirit)
Alignment: LG

Base Stats: Str 10 Dex 10 Con 11 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 17
After racial modifiers: Str 10 Dex 10 Con 9 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 19
After level boosts: Str 10 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 20

Paladin 3/Fighter 2/Horizon Walker 3//Rogue 1/Bard 1/Rogue 6

With the Paladin levels and feats (such as Snowflake Wardance, hence the bard level) you can get Charisma to saves and whatever else you want.

This build gets full BaB and plenty of miscellaneous goodies (immunity to fear, disease, fatigue with the Desert terrain mastery, +4 bonuses to Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently). Being Hellbred means you get dark vision which can eventually function even in deeper darkness, and after that, telepathy as a supernatural ability.

While the best Planar Ability for Horizon walker (Shifting) is off limit as a spell-like ability, you can still get resistance to fire and/or cold 20, which will be nice if your DM is prone to taking equipment away, and other cool abilities.

Plus with the education and university feats, you can still have the knowledge skills and 3 others pretty much maxed out.

I like the look of it, and I might go a bit into a Paladin (but an evil variant), however I don't want to make Charisma my main thing. Reason being so I don't dominate as party face when we have someone else being the face.

If the person playing the face decides he doesn't want to anymore, I can gladly take over and ramp up Charisma some more, but atm I want Charisma to be decently high but not insanely high.

[Urpriest]

It looks interesting, but it looks like he's depending on a high Dexterity.

And with my mental score based rogue concept the highest I can make Dexterity before racial modifers if 12, and that would leave Strength and Constitution at 10. If I were to go fighter for my second class though, why would I spend a feat on snap kick? If it is doesn't provoke an AoO wouldn't it still be pretty weak being unarmed without anything like Monk?

For hide in plain sight, it looks like the only way to do that is wilderness Rogue which also takes away Diplomacy, Gather Info and Appraise as class skills, all three I hoping to either invest fully in or at least invest some points into and I also know Fighter gains none of those back as class skills either.

Also on the topic of skills, are there any knowledge skills outside of the monster ones (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Planes, Nature & Religion) that would be worth any skill points? Outside of the typical one for training.

And I'm still debating if I should take one of those feats like Able Learner or Jack of all Trades since I already have so many class skills and skill points.


You'll need either a high Str, Dex, Wis, or Cha to contribute in combat. Given your sources, there's no combat style that can function with high Int alone.

If you go with my Half-Vampire suggestion from the other thread, you get +2 to Str, Dex, and Cha. Add your +2 Cha to a base 12, and you have 14 Cha, which means you can put your 14 in Dex to get 16 Dex. 16 Dex is a fine starting score for a Dex-based combatant, especially given that you can get almost full BAB from the other side of the gestalt and have to-hit boosts like Knowledge Devotion.

You will still have weak Con, which is why I suggested a Curmudgeon-style Rogue rather than a TWF-focused one. Start out the fight at range and make sure to only engage enemies that are otherwise occupied, and you can mitigate the problem of low Con.

If you took Snap Kick you would also have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite. You don't need more than that, instead of the Monk's damage boosts you'll be dealing Sneak Attack damage. It's a feat to take later anyway, but it would be nice to get Improved Unarmed Strike to prepare for it. You could even arguably use the slam from Half-Vampire as a secondary natural attack, so you would only need to carry around a bow and when you get into melee you attack your foes with a kick and a body slam.

For Hide in Plain Sight I'd recommend either lots of Ranger levels on the other side (only comes into play late and only in natural terrain), a level in Shadowdancer (since you can take DMG prestige classes, downside is it takes lots of otherwise mediocre feats), or the Forgotten Realms version of the Dark Creature template, from Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave (another LA +1).

Don't do Able Learner unless you want to multiclass a lot on the Rogue side. You also probably don't need Jack of All Trades.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You'll need either a high Str, Dex, Wis, or Cha to contribute in combat. Given your sources, there's no combat style that can function with high Int alone.

If you go with my Half-Vampire suggestion from the other thread, you get +2 to Str, Dex, and Cha. Add your +2 Cha to a base 12, and you have 14 Cha, which means you can put your 14 in Dex to get 16 Dex. 16 Dex is a fine starting score for a Dex-based combatant, especially given that you can get almost full BAB from the other side of the gestalt and have to-hit boosts like Knowledge Devotion.

You will still have weak Con, which is why I suggested a Curmudgeon-style Rogue rather than a TWF-focused one. Start out the fight at range and make sure to only engage enemies that are otherwise occupied, and you can mitigate the problem of low Con.

If you took Snap Kick you would also have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite. You don't need more than that, instead of the Monk's damage boosts you'll be dealing Sneak Attack damage. It's a feat to take later anyway, but it would be nice to get Improved Unarmed Strike to prepare for it. You could even arguably use the slam from Half-Vampire as a secondary natural attack, so you would only need to carry around a bow and when you get into melee you attack your foes with a kick and a body slam.

For Hide in Plain Sight I'd recommend either lots of Ranger levels on the other side (only comes into play late and only in natural terrain), a level in Shadowdancer (since you can take DMG prestige classes, downside is it takes lots of otherwise mediocre feats), or the Forgotten Realms version of the Dark Creature template, from Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave (another LA +1).

Don't do Able Learner unless you want to multiclass a lot on the Rogue side. You also probably don't need Jack of All Trades.

To start these are the things still waiting approval from the DM


Craven Feat
Penetrating Strike Variant
Half-Vampire Template
Unholy Scion Template
Either Perceived Alignment or Mask of Gentility
(Given as a free feat to replace Scions spells if I go that route so the party can't discover my secret by simply going 'detect evil')
Paladin of Tyranny <--- Figured Cha to Saving Throws would prove useful


For the evil templates, if I go Half-Vampire your idea seems pretty solid.
But I personally am hoping for the Unholy Scion one for flavor and mechanic reasons
With it's boosts of: Int +6, Dex & Wis +2, Cha +4

I plan to set up my ability scores like this

STR 10
DEX 18 + 2 = 20
CON 12
INT 14 + 6 = 20
WIS 10 + 2 = 12
CHA 12 + 4 = 16

I probably will go the Crumudgeon route though no matter which evil template I'm going with.

Snap kick sounds good for later, but with how feat heavy I might end up being it will be a later level thing for me.

Issue with Hide in Plain sight and the options given though...

1. For Ranger my DM ruled he didn't want people with Knowledge Devotion to be Ranger out of fear of over specialization against certain monsters

2. The Dark Template physically alters my character giving his nature away, part of the concept is that the players can't tell his routes just by looking at him.

Thanks for all the help though btw, I really appreciate it :)

[Urpriest]

2. The Dark Template physically alters my character giving his nature away, part of the concept is that the players can't tell his routes just by looking at him.



Dark doesn't really change your appearance that much. It makes you look pale and washed-out, with somewhat of a shadowy mien. That's enough to be unsettling, without being obviously inhuman. You can say you just don't get much sun. :smalltongue:

Anyway, it all depends on what other templates end up getting approved.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Dark doesn't really change your appearance that much. It makes you look pale and washed-out, with somewhat of a shadowy mien. That's enough to be unsettling, without being obviously inhuman. You can say you just don't get much sun. :smalltongue:

Anyway, it all depends on what other templates end up getting approved.

"Dark" is an acquired or inherited template that can be added any creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Dark creatures tend to be much duller in color, with more gray and black skin tones and hair highlights, than their Material Plane versions. In general, they also weigh less, as if part of their very substance was mere shadow stuff.

If this description makes it sound more than that. Like gray skin, for something like a human that would be more than doesn't get out much.

+I don't want my guy to suddenly be unsettling, part of the point of the charisma is so he's socially likeable and people are drawn to him.

Note: I can't seem to find the template from the pdfs for some reason. Probably ain't looking in the right spot so the description above is one grabbed off a site listing the template.

[Gavinfoxx]

Look at THAT PARTICULAR expert.

Does Rogue get Autohypnosis?
Iaijustu Focus?

[Urpriest]

Look at THAT PARTICULAR expert.

Does Rogue get Autohypnosis?
Iaijustu Focus?

Iaijustu takes gimmicks this guy probably isn't investing in, and Autohypnosis, while nice, is itsef gimmicks.

[thethird]

"Dark" is an acquired or inherited template that can be added any creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Dark creatures tend to be much duller in color, with more gray and black skin tones and hair highlights, than their Material Plane versions. In general, they also weigh less, as if part of their very substance was mere shadow stuff.

If this description makes it sound more than that. Like gray skin, for something like a human that would be more than doesn't get out much.

+I don't want my guy to suddenly be unsettling, part of the point of the charisma is so he's socially likeable and people are drawn to him.

Note: I can't seem to find the template from the pdfs for some reason. Probably ain't looking in the right spot so the description above is one grabbed off a site listing the template.

Ranks in disguise or a hat of disguise would solve that. Just use make up.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ranks in disguise or a hat of disguise would solve that. Just use make up.

DM has a tendency to remove gear at times though.

I don't want my identity to be revealed because the DM stole my make up bag.

[thethird]

Hidden talent: Minor psionic creation

If you don't have makeup think the makeup you want so hard it becomes real.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Hidden talent: Minor psionic creation

If you don't have makeup think the makeup you want so hard it becomes real.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usbNJMUZSwo

In all seriousness though, that would fall under as a magical ability.
So the DM would shoot it down.

Allow me to explain why.

In our current group (which the DM in question is a player, not the DM) we consist half of spell slingers and half of others. The spell slingers tend to take the majority of the action, time and spot light simply due to the spells in their arsenal.

All the spell management also slowed them down effectively slowing down the campaign. We didn't want for the next campaign for characters to be overshadowed like this again. So the DM for that campaign and all the players outside of the DM in question now, agreed that for his campaign none of us would go spell casters, to add to the challenge and so we weren't over shadowed by one another (and we did not want our solution to be everyone being spell casters).

But this restriction was purely no using spell trees. Minor spells from races, magical like racial abilities etc would still work for this was a mechanic balance, not a flavor alteration.

But then the DM in question got wind of this later, and for some still unexplained reason took it further. He is now enforcing it as DM that any abilities that are too similliar to magic and spells are not allowed.

This has caused things such as: No Changelings, Drows, Gnomes etc.

Druid being banned, even if it's spell tree is effectively gone with no replacement because the shape shifting is still 'too magical' etc.

Now to get a better understand on the stances he's been taking in general though. Here's a small list of other questionable things done.

1. Penalties for having a good listen/spot skill (more detail here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280386))
2. Gear will be taken from players constantly (and never to be seen from again)
-He claims balancing here is that he'll give out far more treasure & loot than usual
But still, constantly losing gear to never be seen from again.

[ZeroNumerous]

be careful one stray ray of enfeeblement will have you kissing the ground.

No it won't, because you'll be Wildshape'd into a bear(20+ STR) all day every day.


When I highlighted that was screwing over with WBL balance his response was "If you don't like it then don't play" so before people give advice around 'talk him out of it', it won't work.

Advice: Run your own game. People who go out of their way to ruin players for no reason don't deserve to run games.


I should also note that I don't want this character to become too gear dependent.

Don't be a rogue then. You'll be completely beholden to gear. Wildshape Ranger cares nothing for gear.


1. Where can I invest my gold where my investments can't be lost from a 'lose your gear' situation?

VoP Wildshape Ranger. When everyone else loses their gear, you lose nothing.


MoMF is an out of core class which means the DM won't allow it.

Also he added a house rule where your ability scores don't change the older you get for any character because he knows plenty old people who are still strong and fit.

Then go straight Wildshape Ranger. Don't even need MoMF.

[Gwazi Magnum]

No it won't, because you'll be Wildshape'd into a bear(20+ STR) all day every day.

Advice: Run your own game. People who go out of their way to ruin players for no reason don't deserve to run games.

Don't be a rogue then. You'll be completely beholden to gear. Wildshape Ranger cares nothing for gear.

VoP Wildshape Ranger. When everyone else loses their gear, you lose nothing.

Then go straight Wildshape Ranger. Don't even need MoMF.

Wildshape Ranger would banned for the same reason a Druid is banned even after losing their entire spell tree, the shapeshifting ability is just too magical.

For more info on that read my earlier post.

For DM'ing my own game, I already am DM'ing one game, but it's a star wars d6 one back from the 80's.

I tried DM'ing d&d 3.5 before but two main things went wrong

1. I wasn't prepared enough with my world ended up railroading the players a bit

2. Current DM in question was a player and he and one other player made a point of trolling/sabotaging every encounter, too the point that the campaign fell apart after session two.

More details below

Note: This is a semi-quick version, if you want more details in a certain are and/or I skipped details somewhere you would like more details in please ask.

Essentially he started with a homebrew race (one I made, but lack of experience made me not relise how broken it was) that allowed him to fly at level 4. He abused this with insane archery to never be hit.

That's the mechanical sabotage. Roleplay wise, they ran into a plot device wizard character (far more powerful than them) and insisted it would be better if the wizard traveled with them. Not understanding (or ignoring) that they as adventurers had done nothing to prove that they were worthwhile enough for him to travel with.

But they keep repeating same arguments such as "He's better with us" when the wizard was leaving to gain reinforcements for a great evil coming, which he cannot do following a group of 4 random people.

They keep trying diplomacy checks and failing (and they weren't even trained in diplomacy to boot) and effectively halted the game refusing to go forward until this insanely powerful wizard joined them, which couldn't happen both mechanic and story reasons.


Getting to the point I had to ask him to leave the room so other players could get a chance to speak and roleplay. He chose to take this as "Kicked out of the group" (and yes, he chose to take it that way, it was well established after the fact he recognized he was only asked to leave the room) and began packing up all the d&d stuff, dice and books included (he technically owned them all having spent the money, the rest of the group was just borrowing them). This brought the group to such a conflict/standstill that the campaign fell apart that moment.

Now note, assuming if I did DM my own campaign he wasn't there so such a case couldn't repeat itself. I have to admit I still rather new to the DM premsie. I'm only good in star wars because I grew up on it. No preperation needed, I know star wars like the back of my hand.

D&D is different however and there's a lot of prep, world building, improvising to do where I don't think I possess enough world and lore d&d knowledge to accomplish at the moment.

Also note I do not mean to speak of this DM as a bad person, he isn't. He is one of my closest friends.

He just happens to be putting in some pretty stubborn and ridiculous rules as a DM and was a really damn disruptive player when I was DM.
But he was sort of treating it as 'revenge' for me ending his last campaign...

Where pretty much what happened there was he was adding similliar rules like being mentioned above the penalized players for the sole purpose of penalizing them. I spoke up about it rather than rolling aside and taking it, and this eventually lead to enough conflict that he lost his patience and quit at DM effectively ending his campaign.

[Wookie-ranger]

"Mental Ability Score Based Character"....
I am seriously surprised about the lack of undeath.

There are many undead that appear as they did in life and some can if the want to.
The already mentioned vampire is an option.
Lich would also work, and so would Necropolitan (but this one is not core)

Personal favorite for mental stats would be ghost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm).
Given that you are are incorporeal and invisible might be a little giveaway that you not just a human (anymore) but if you have the Malevolence (su) ability you can simple take over a spare body and say that this is you. That way
Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities are coming from the host body.
And if you (your host body that is) are ever killed you can just posses a new one and say that a friendly druid cast reincarnate for you.

[gooddragon1]

Maybe I'm not seeing the link due to poor search terms but...

X stat to Y bonus. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

Just an example

Swordsage 2: Wisdom to AC with light Armor
Swashbuckler 3: Int to damage
Paladin 2 (or something?): Charisma to saves

[Man on Fire]

Using only the classes from the PhB and DMG, and avoiding spell casting.

Are there good builds that can revolve around Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom?

Note: Outside feats and variants of classes are still allowed, just not brand new classes outside of core.

Out of core races and such are also allowed.

I think that Rogue could do the trick. high int for more skillpoints, high wis for good will save and sense motive and high charisma for feints.

[Gwazi Magnum]

"Mental Ability Score Based Character"....
I am seriously surprised about the lack of undeath.

There are many undead that appear as they did in life and some can if the want to.
The already mentioned vampire is an option.
Lich would also work, and so would Necropolitan (but this one is not core)

Personal favorite for mental stats would be ghost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm).
Given that you are are incorporeal and invisible might be a little giveaway that you not just a human (anymore) but if you have the Malevolence (su) ability you can simple take over a spare body and say that this is you. That way
Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities are coming from the host body.
And if you (your host body that is) are ever killed you can just posses a new one and say that a friendly druid cast reincarnate for you.

To much magical abilities involved, I can see the DM shooting this one down right away.
Expecially with me having the option to just gain high physical from a host, he'll claim it as way to easy to break the game with.

Lich I've looked at, aren't they restricted to a skeleton and/or rotting flesh?
Vampire has the issues of sunlight and invited indoors, plus the DM already looked at it and said he didn't want vampires in, at least as players.


Maybe I'm not seeing the link due to poor search terms but...

X stat to Y bonus. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

Just an example

Swordsage 2: Wisdom to AC with light Armor
Swashbuckler 3: Int to damage
Paladin 2 (or something?): Charisma to saves

I've looked, but since class wise I'm restricted to core, a lot of my options are limited.


I think that Rogue could do the trick. high int for more skillpoints, high wis for good will save and sense motive and high charisma for feints.

Basic idea in a nutshell atm.

[Wookie-ranger]

Lich I've looked at, aren't they restricted to a skeleton and/or rotting flesh?

Well, that's the thing...
There was a thread and a very heated discussion about this topic. By RAW there is no rule that says that they have to look rotten and/or skeletal. The fluff text says that they still where what they used to as a living being. This means to a lot of people that their cloths do not just magically become tattered ad worn, but that this happens slowly over time. Along the same line of thought, they may not be skeletal from the start, but become that way over the centuries.
The argument being that they do not need the flesh or cloths, there fore why bother preserve them.

[Karnith]

Well, that's the thing...
There was a thread and a very heated discussion about this topic. By RAW there is no rule that says that they have to look rotten and/or skeletal. The fluff text says that they still where what they used to as a living being. This means to a lot of people that their cloths do not just magically become tattered ad worn, but that this happens slowly over time. Along the same line of thought, they may not be skeletal from the start, but become that way over the centuries.
The argument being that they do not need the flesh or cloths, there fore why bother preserve them.
If you look at the sample liches in Libris Mortis, for example, there is Durak the Eternal, who
is now a relatively young lich, having experienced the transformation mere months ago. He appears mostly human, if a bit pale and sunken-eyed.
So there is precedent for liches looking normal and not just instantly rotting.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, that's the thing...
There was a thread and a very heated discussion about this topic. By RAW there is no rule that says that they have to look rotten and/or skeletal. The fluff text says that they still where what they used to as a living being. This means to a lot of people that their cloths do not just magically become tattered ad worn, but that this happens slowly over time. Along the same line of thought, they may not be skeletal from the start, but become that way over the centuries.
The argument being that they do not need the flesh or cloths, there fore why bother preserve them.


If you look at the sample liches in Libris Mortis, for example, there is Durak the Eternal, who
So there is precedent for liches looking normal and not just instantly rotting.

Interesting, but I can easily see the argument coming up of now the flesh is not bothering to preserve itself and will start to rot. And if that's ruled under realistic science from today's world, I can see the DM saying my flesh is rotting within a week, as if it was a corpse left to lie about for a week.

[Fouredged Sword]

Lesser wish should be able to restore your body's shape to just post death. Gentle Repose will prevent further decay.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Lesser wish should be able to restore your body's shape to just post death. Gentle Repose will prevent further decay.

Sadly that requries an occassional upkeep of spells and magic which I can't do due to a non-magical rule the players started but the DM enforced and it taking much further.

Read the first post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280440) for more details.