everyone seems worried for the order but.....

[dark 1882]

first off spoilers obviously and this is just a theory considering how genre savvy the series is.

now that thats out of the way the order is indeed in a bad positition but...... the have one very important thing on their side
- the conservation of ninjutsu -
In any martial arts fight, there is only a finite amount of ninjutsu available to each side in a given encounter. As a result, one Ninja is a deadly threat, but an army of them are cannon fodder.

since the linear guild has greater numbers especialy with the two summoned fiends (they don't have names yet so we know theyll die in about ten seconds) if this trope is played the order shall get a large power boost just because theres less of them :-D things may not be as bleak as they seem

[Fshy94]

Having read the TvTropes page does not grant you any superior ability to judge the flow of the plot.

Frankly, we already know its highly unlikely that the order will be TPK'ed and we'll continue the story from the Adventures of O-Chul and Lien, who avenge the fallen Order.

[Amphiox]

But no one in the Order has any levels in Ninja....

[Snails]

...if this trope is played the order shall get a large power boost just because theres less of them :-D things may not be as bleak as they seem

Everyone has access to the metaknowledge that the Giant is unlikely to retire the Order, and send in another squad to finish out the story.

But I think your point is wrong even on its own terms. The Order's cause could easily go even further downhill. Even if the real battle becomes LG++ vs Team Evil, then the best plausible result is a Gate destruction. But to the Order the destruction of the Gate is a bad thing, on its own terms, because it is unclear that a single Gate is sufficient to keep the Snarl in check. It is purely metaknowledge that allows us to guess the story is not over if a 4th Gate is destroyed.

Furthermore one more Gate boom makes the last battle do or die. If the last Gate is seized, Evil wins. If the last Gate is destroyed, everyone (presumably) loses.

[Red_Lava]

{scrubbed}

[TRH]

first off spoilers obviously and this is just a theory considering how genre savvy the series is.

now that thats out of the way the order is indeed in a bad positition but...... the have one very important thing on their side
- the conservation of ninjutsu -
In any martial arts fight, there is only a finite amount of ninjutsu available to each side in a given encounter. As a result, one Ninja is a deadly threat, but an army of them are cannon fodder.

since the linear guild has greater numbers especialy with the two summoned fiends (they don't have names yet so we know theyll die in about ten seconds) if this trope is played the order shall get a large power boost just because theres less of them :-D things may not be as bleak as they seem

Someone read a TVTropes page without considering the Playing With page. There's a lot more you can do with a trope than just mindlessly play it straight. So, in a very real sense you've completely missed the point of TVTropes. Congratulations. Your writing mechanics could do with some work, as well.

[oppyu]

In summary; even for a joke, the OP is fundamentally flawed, and Red_Lava is clearly not long for this forum.

[Belkar<3]

First of all, what the hell are you talking about? Truly, that first post did not make any sense.

No one is a ninja. Speaking of cannon fodder, that's for things like cannons or spells that have a mass effect. Obviously, the Order has no such thing. IF we were playing normal D&D, the OOTS would be royally screwed.

Yes, Rich, wouldn't let the Order get killed off, but they're in a bad way. You've got Malack, Tarquin, Nale, Sabine, Durkula, 2 fiends, Qarr, Kilkil against Roy, Elan, Haley, and a half-dead Belkar. Oh, and don't forget Team Evil: All of them powerful spellcasters, epic-level Xykon, almost epic Redcloak, and the insanely powerful MitD. Let us see, that's . . .

12 capable fighters and wizards, 3 of them epic, against the current OOTS: 3 1/15 PC's leveled 13-16. And that's counting if Elan is marginally useful. If not, we've got roughly 2 4/15 worth of good fighting. None of the spellcasters (except Elan). So yeah.

THEY'RE SCREWED.

P.S. Put some skill ranks into Knowledge (Capitalization).

[The_Tentacle]

It is an already established fact that the OotS will not be TPK'd. In fact, they probably won't lose any members until the very end of the plotline (no, I don't count Durkula as lost). I agree that there most likely will be an outside deciding factor such as V or TE, but them receiving a direct power boost seems a little bit too much of a suspension of the D&D rules, even with the Giant hardly using them.

And Red_Lava, you might want to check out the forum rules.

[oppyu]

Adding onto my earlier post; maybe we should stop beating up on the new guy for a joke topic? Maybe? They clearly weren't here for when this forum decided that tvtropes was a nuisance to be referenced sparsely at most, and it was a joke topic. Joke. Not serious.

[Belkar<3]

Whoops. I was writing my earlier one when you posted your earlier one. I think it was the capitalization that made me think that this guy was just being ignorant.

[137beth]

Adding onto my earlier post; maybe we should stop beating up on the new guy for a joke topic? Maybe? They clearly weren't here for when this forum decided that tvtropes was a nuisance to be referenced sparsely at most, and it was a joke topic. Joke. Not serious.

Joke?!? That is absurd! No one ever makes jokes on a forum:smalltongue:

But yea, the order is definitely going to make it out, since there are 2 more books after this.

[martianmister]

now that thats out of the way the order is indeed in a bad positition but...... the have one very important thing on their side
- the conservation of ninjutsu -
In any martial arts fight, there is only a finite amount of ninjutsu available to each side in a given encounter. As a result, one Ninja is a deadly threat, but an army of them are cannon fodder.

"Jossed" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) :tongue:

[davidbofinger]

No one is a ninja.

I believe he was making an analogy with general combat power.


You've got Malack, Tarquin, Nale, Sabine, Durkula, 2 fiends, Qarr, Kilkil against Roy, Elan, Haley, and a half-dead Belkar.

I don't know how you constructed that order of battle for the ersatz Linear Guild because it seems to assume all their enemies will come and fight them at the same time as allies. Whereas in fact:


Tarquin and Kilkil are sitting out the fight, or at least the early stages of it.
Sabine is hors de combat, watching cable TV and probably having sex a lot.
Z is in theory working for Nale but seems to get along better with Tarquin.
Nale and Malack have completely different objectives: Nale wants to kill the OotS; Malack has promised Durkon that he won't kill the OotS.
Malack hates Nale. It's only a common relationship with Tarquin that's keeping Nale alive.

It's unclear if Nale has anyone working for him at all.


Oh, and don't forget Team Evil: All of them powerful spellcasters, epic-level Xykon, almost epic Redcloak, and the insanely powerful MitD.

Yes, that's the elephant in the room. But they probably don't get along with anyone else either. Simply adding them to an enemy order of battle is unreasonable.

[Toofey]

While terrible for the order, this isn't the end of the world.

They started in close range, with Roy right on top of Xylon.

I believe in Haley in to occupy Redcloak

which leaves Belkar the MitD... well who knows

[Heksefatter]

Personally I believe that the Order will fall and that the rest of the comic will be a tribute to Mark Waid's Empire graphic novel with Xykon in the role of villain protagonist Golgoth, undergoing internal power struggles.

Or maybe Tarquin, if he manages to edge out Xykon. Or the Dark One if Redcloak has his way. Or the IFCC somehow.

[oppyu]

While terrible for the order, this isn't the end of the world.

They started in close range, with Roy right on top of Xylon.

I believe in Haley in to occupy Redcloak

which leaves Belkar the MitD... well who knows
Still Meteor Swarm, Implosion, and Punching Belkar Through A Tower

[Bilgore]

since the linear guild has greater numbers especialy with the two summoned fiends (they don't have names yet so we know theyll die in about ten seconds) if this trope is played the order shall get a large power boost just because theres less of them :-D things may not be as bleak as they seem

Actually this trope is reversed for infernal beings--they're generally more easily defeated when you know their true names.

[Sir_Leorik]

Regarding the "conservation of ninjutsu" trope, its already been used in this storyline. General Tarquin drove the entire OotS into a retreat, and he wasn't even trying very hard. (Malack accused Tarquin of showboating rather than sticking to the plan.) However, once the OotS were able to retreat into the Pyramid, they were vastly outnumbered by the LG: Nale, Tarquin, Malack, Z'zdtri, Sabine, Kilkil and Qarr, along with half a dozen mummies, against Roy, Haley, Durkon, Elan and Belkar. In addition, while Tarquin and Malack were individually more powerful than the OotS, Nale, Z'zditri and Sabine were equal in power, and Kilkil, Qarr and the mummies were all weaker. As a result the LG sauntered into the trap Roy and the OotS had set up.

Right now the OotS outnumbers Xykon, Redcloak and the MitD four to three. Xykon, Redcloak and the MitD's power dwarfs that of the OotS in its current condition. So "Conservation of Ninjutsu" is not going to be of much help in this storyline...

[Nymrod]

. . .
I think TE getting a gate is not really a bad thing. There is no snarl in there. If there was, it would be attacking like it did back when Soon's wife got speared through.
Heck I'm calling it, in the end TE will succeed and the Dark One will just shift the gate to HIS plane so he can populate the new world with goblins, that being his endgame from day one.

[Bulldog Psion]

. . .
I think TE getting a gate is not really a bad thing. There is no snarl in there. If there was, it would be attacking like it did back when Soon's wife got speared through.
Heck I'm calling it, in the end TE will succeed and the Dark One will just shift the gate to HIS plane so he can populate the new world with goblins, that being his endgame from day one.

That sounds like a very plausible outcome.

[BaronOfHell]

I too hope for a happy ending for the goblin population, but if the DO is a good guy, why hide it from RC?

Edit: Unless it makes the perfect "bluff" because your "mouth" is telling the truth?:D

Still I don't quite buy it yet, it's too case specific, and the RC isn'y the first wearer of the CM as far as I know.:smalltongue:

[TRH]

Yeah, from what I saw in SOD, I'm really having a hard time seeing The Dark One as anything resembling altruistic or noble. At this point, I'm guessing he just wants revenge.

[Nymrod]

Why'd it have to be considered altruistic. Instead of sharing a world, he'd get an entire world for his people were the other gods can't interfere. I honestly think it is more important to him that the goblins get a happy ever after than revenge; that was the entire point of his story. The DO never attacked the elves, dwarfs and humans. He wanted peace even though he had a quite capable army at his hands.

[TRH]

Why'd it have to be considered altruistic. Instead of sharing a world, he'd get an entire world for his people were the other gods can't interfere. I honestly think it is more important to him that the goblins get a happy ever after than revenge; that was the entire point of his story. The DO never attacked the elves, dwarfs and humans. He wanted peace even though he had a quite capable army at his hands.

Well, that's the thing; he may have had benevolent intentions at the beginning, but it's definitely been implied that, like Redcloak, his initially noble goals have been decayed by allowing himself to sacrifice too much for the Greater Good, not to mention all the setbacks he's experienced. The way I see it, just as Redcloak's primary motivation at this point is his inability to own up to his own mistakes and failures, the Dark One's become more concerned with punishing the peoples and Gods who have betrayed him (just look back at the imagine spot from SOD where he gloats to the Gods about what he can do with the Snarl, he's obviously more interested in one-upping them than actually negotiating). Granted, this is all my interpretation, but considering how deeply flawed his Prophet is, I can't be much more charitable with judging The Dark One.

[Nymrod]

Well, that's the thing; he may have had benevolent intentions at the beginning, but it's definitely been implied that, like Redcloak, his initially noble goals have been decayed by allowing himself to sacrifice too much for the Greater Good, not to mention all the setbacks he's experienced. The way I see it, just as Redcloak's primary motivation at this point is his inability to own up to his own mistakes and failures, the Dark One's become more concerned with punishing the peoples and Gods who have betrayed him (just look back at the imagine spot from SOD where he gloats to the Gods about what he can do with the Snarl, he's obviously more interested in one-upping them than actually negotiating). Granted, this is all my interpretation, but considering how deeply flawed his Prophet is, I can't be much more charitable with judging The Dark One.

See, I consider the story to be told through the subjective morality of the bearers of the crimson mantle, all of whom had a lot of hatred. Personally I am wary even of the DOs domains meaning everything. The rest of the gods created goblins to fill in design space. They all detect evil apparently. Why did goblin children detect evil? Do goblins engage in acts of such clear immorality from the time they can walk? It seems more likely to me that alignment is simply tacked on in the OotSverse. We have several examples of people having alignments that their acts could not support in any shape or form (Miko!). You get what alignment you pick or was picked for you, and it doesn't change unless you GROSSLY violate its principles.
So yeah I think the DO can still be LN at heart whatever alignment the arbitrary cosmos decided he has.

[Kish]

Whatever would happen if the ritual was actually completed, I don't believe "It would be a good thing if the villains' plan was completed despite the Order's opposition" is in the cards.