Help! My players are Anarchists!

[Threadnaught]

1: I'm laid back on the rules and let them get away with any decision they want to make with minimal consequences against them, but the Druid wants no consequences at all. Except y'know, time moves forward when they sleep.

2: I'm allowing them to use almost any source for their characters including homebrew, as long as I feel it fits into the setting. Which has the kitchen sink, but Druid complains about any homebrew I get from online sources.

3: World is open, but they complain about rail roading (mostly as a joke) when they get beaten in a fight due to poor decisions on their part or mistakes on part of our incompetent DM.

4: Druid talks too much about nothing. Other player took a 5-10 minute break and the Druid was still asking if he could magically turn an Ancient Sand Dragon (30HD) into an Animal Companion... At level 9. When the other player got back.

5: The players are in Taltasqa, after the fall long after, like long enough for the Fiends born from that place to build Hell and the Abyss, Dire Animals to become common. The DM has no idea what Undead, Dire Animals, Fiends, Abominations or Constructs to throw at them (nothing can top an unstable magic laser cannon) as they explore the ruin with aforementioned Sand Dragon and his Drylich "friend".


How do I become more like the Tyrant DMs that people here complain about? I'm sick of half of my players (that ******* Druid) complaining about everything that negatively affects them. I want to see some real, justified complaints.
Session before last was awesome. At the end rocks fell, no reflex save or nothin', nobody died. It was just too cool to ask for a roll.

[Arundel]

Important questions:
Are the players having fun? If not, why?
Are you having fun? If not, why?

It kinda sounds like you just need to take the druid out behind the woodshed have a adult conversation with the druid's player. Have you set any ground rules before the game started?

[ArcturusV]

Usually for me it's a case of logical consequences that draws a lot of the "DM hates me" complaints I've gotten in life. A few examples:

The Paladin who fell, because a bad guy had grabbed a bystander hostage and was using them as a human shield (Total cover as we've worked it out before and they knew it, with any miss due to the cover/AC hits the hostage). Paladin decided to stab THROUGH the shield purposefully to hit the bad guy. Paladin fell despite complaining that the hostage was "As good as dead anyway" and "Probably evil anyway".

An undead PC decided to bully a village and try to take it over. The party was going on a short mission so after his rampage (including vampire drinking a few people out in the open and laughing about it), they were going to be gone for about a week. The peasants ran to the next town over, where there's a holy temple. Got a metric crap ton of Holy Water given to them for free by the Temple. When the vampire came back and tried to install himself as Lord of the Village... he had a peasant mob greeting him with a volley of Holy Water to the face (Enough hit to kill him over 5 times).

Having enemies use teamwork tactics. That usually gets complaints. As something as a front line shield wall, with guys 5' behind them with 15' reach weapons, has caused fits for various players I've had.

[Callin]

Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child.

That is what has happened here. You let them get away with murder and now that some comeuppance has hit they whine and piss and moan about it. Time to have a heart to heart with the whole group. APOLOGIZE for the way you have allowed the game to get and that you are now going to start to enforce fair but strict rules. Give warnings at the start of this transition then faze them out as time goes on. Quickly.

The only reason I say for you to apologize is that asking the players to will set the manure flying. Take the hit to the pride and then punch the rest of the group in the gonads when they act up. Be the bigger man in this picture.

[Gnome Alone]

Wait, are they more like Bakuninist/Kropotkinite socialist anarchists or Proudhonian/Tuckerite mutualist anarchists? Because that totally changes my opinion on who can or can't morph into a sand dragon or whatevs.
:smalltongue:

[Kerilstrasz]

well... Im not very good with social skills (so i wont say "talk with the druid"
cause i never do that).. if i have a problem with my group i usually solve it
in game...

1st of all when my PCs want me to allow smthing (some sketchy Pr.C. or
a cheesy build or even smthing homebrew) i always tell tem the exact same thing:

you want keen + Impr.Crt to stack??? OFC!!! but they stack for npcs too!
you want to have that 1 shot 1.00000000 dmg build??? OFC!! but you r not
the ONLY ONE in the world that might have the same training!

a player that talks, complaints about everything keeps harassing...
NO PROBLEM! you r a what? a druid? a female char that always complaint that
there are no female inkeepers (by the way are there any? :P ) and no Queens but
only kings??? ok... during the night you got jumped by a patrol of the next
city and the Sheriff hates druids.. what ? you talk? slap the druid and throw
him in jail! what? you keep talking?????? hmm.. Sheriffs house needs new
carpet? where is you an.comp.???? Remember though that these tactics are
considered harsh and are only to be used in high end conditions...

by you misscalculations your PCs got Above average WBL (or by a mechanic exploit)
and are ravaging your world (and pretty much destroy everything)..
oh.. see the Newspaper... an enormous platinum vein was discovered...
now all ncs in the region (yes even the 12yo boy that maps the tavern), can
easily afford full +5 gear!

all these are radical solutions that could be used like 1 time only to deal
with extreme situations.. the best way i found is... i sat on my desk 1 day
and wrote down some realm rules... what i allow and what i don't! my PCs
though know that if smthing isnt allowed for them then it will never be used
against them by me.. and then there is a list that i could allow, IF they agree
that these could and WILL be used against them.
And the "by far" best tip i can give to any DM that is fed up by complaints
&/or anything else a PC may throw at him... say: Next Campaign i ll be a PC,
Druid you will DM!
He ll try, he ll realise, he ll learn and then he ll understand!
(i learned the same way, i teach the same way, i can say that my latest
games are much more smooth!)

[Chaosvii7]

People breaking the law? Make the law break them and see how they like it.

Archons.

Archons everywhere.

I may just be suggesting that because I'm a bit of an extremist and I absolutely hate the chaos parameter of alignment, but I have no problems enforcing the law where it needs to be enforced. Of course I support free will and spirit and all that, but if it gets in the way of the game, particularly the OOC or the meta, I will find you, and I will exert the Law on you.

Basically, I like to have dry, boring, pragmatical gameplay because I am a dry, boring, pragmatical person.

[lord pringle]

a player that talks, complaints about everything keeps harassing...
NO PROBLEM! you r a what? a druid? a female char that always complaint that
there are no female inkeepers (by the way are there any? :P ) and no Queens but
only kings??? ok... during the night you got jumped by a patrol of the next
city and the Sheriff hates druids.. what ? you talk? slap the druid and throw
him in jail! what? you keep talking?????? hmm.. Sheriffs house needs new
carpet? where is you an.comp.???? Remember though that these tactics are
considered harsh and are only to be used in high end conditions...
Correct me if I'm wrong but, some one complained that your fantasy world has no women with power and/or jobs in it, so you decided to throw their characters in jail and have the female character be forced to perform house keeping. I'm not sure that is appropriate punishment for that, nor anything like the situation the OP described.


by you misscalculations your PCs got Above average WBL (or by a mechanic exploit)
and are ravaging your world (and pretty much destroy everything)..
oh.. see the Newspaper... an enormous platinum vein was discovered...
now all ncs in the region (yes even the 12yo boy that maps the tavern), can
easily afford full +5 gear!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure that's how supply and demand and/ or who owns veins of minerals works. At the very least, that would just give the players a large number of low level, untrained people, with very expensive gear that could be resold at a high price, or used by the players themselves.

[Arbane]

well... Im not very good with social skills (so i wont say "talk with the druid"
cause i never do that).. if i have a problem with my group i usually solve it
in game...


Anyone have a story of 'solving it in game' actually WORKING? From my anecdata, it's got a 99% failure rate.

TALK. TO. THEM. If you have social anxiety disorder, use email. But don't waste everyone's time and SAN points trying to make them 'get the message' in-game, because they will not.

[lord pringle]

Anyone have a story of 'solving it in game' actually WORKING? From my anecdata, it's got a 99% failure rate.

TALK. TO. THEM. If you have social anxiety disorder, use email. But don't waste everyone's time and SAN points trying to make them 'get the message' in-game, because they will not.

Honestly, in the case of the players not expecting consequences, I think an in-game solution could work well, if handled correctly.
EDIT: But still talk to them, as well. It never hurts to talk.

[Lazers etcetera]

They are not anarchists. Anarchists are fun. Paris '68 anarchists were groovy.

Your players (the Druid at least) are *****.

Just email them this thread and tell them to grow some and stop behaving like twerps. Man up yourself. Cut out all the free stuff you give them. Jack up the CR for encounter monsters.

[Threadnaught]

Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child.

That is what has happened here. You let them get away with murder and now that some comeuppance has hit they whine and piss and moan about it.

I ignore the rules that would slow down the game and if they want to do something cool, I figure out if there's a way to let it happen. I let some NPC adventurers do the same stuff.

These complaints started from day one as DM, right after I told him his Bard wouldn't auto succeed on Diplomacy rolls. Because I decided to use The Giant's fix.


1st of all when my PCs want me to allow smthing (some sketchy Pr.C. or
a cheesy build or even smthing homebrew) i always tell tem the exact same thing:

you want keen + Impr.Crt to stack??? OFC!!! but they stack for npcs too!
you want to have that 1 shot 1.00000000 dmg build??? OFC!! but you r not
the ONLY ONE in the world that might have the same training!

The Druid hates NPC Druids so much. Especially if he has to fight one. :smallamused:


by you misscalculations your PCs got Above average WBL (or by a mechanic exploit)
and are ravaging your world (and pretty much destroy everything)..
oh.. see the Newspaper... an enormous platinum vein was discovered...
now all ncs in the region (yes even the 12yo boy that maps the tavern), can
easily afford full +5 gear!

They do have a lot of wealth, but I haven't given them much money in a while, only 500 gold about an in game week ago. Thing is, they've never really bought any magic items, no matter how many times I mentioned how crafting is the main source of magic items.
If it weren't for a very specific item related to the main plot, they'd have no magic items at all.


And the "by far" best tip i can give to any DM that is fed up by complaints
&/or anything else a PC may throw at him... say: Next Campaign i ll be a PC,
Druid you will DM!
He'll try, he'll realise, he'll learn and then he'll understand!
(i learned the same way, i teach the same way, i can say that my latest
games are much more smooth!)

Told the Druid's player who constantly demands Core only RAW adhesion. After this campaign is through, I'm going to let him be the DM while I break his game into pieces.
That's worked to cut down on his complaints.


Important questions:
Are the players having fun? If not, why?
Are you having fun? If not, why?

Of course we're having fun. The Wizard started firing the laser cannon and learned it was unstable very quickly, but kept on firing, it exploding is what caused the rocks to fall after they had 1d4+1 rounds to escape the blast. :smallbiggrin:
They were supposed to fight a nerfed Aspect of Atropus (still level 9), but they turned and ran. Probably for the best, it'll find them later on though. They should be able to take it in after the week or so (in game) it'll take for it to escape and the rest of the time it'll spend hunting them.
They were looking for ancient super weapons, it is one of them.


It kinda sounds like you just need to take the druid out behind the woodshed have a adult conversation with the druid's player. Have you set any ground rules before the game started?

Tier 1 only.
You're allowed to do anything within your class abilities.
Create your own magic items, I won't give you many. (I gave 3 over the course of the whole game)
Don't be a ****.
If you manage to somehow cause a time paradox (by messing with the dark side of the plot), then you win. Somehow. :smallamused:


The biggest problem I have is the Druid's out of character and game dickery towards me when he doesn't like a decision. I'm trying to get them Epic so they can take on the end game challenges/bosses. After they complete the last of the plot's challenges, I'll show the Druid's player how hard it is to DM for someone who's intent on breaking the game.

[CaladanMoonblad]

The biggest problem I have is the Druid's out of character and game dickery towards me when he doesn't like a decision. I'm trying to get them Epic so they can take on the end game challenges/bosses. After they complete the last of the plot's challenges, I'll show the Druid's player how hard it is to DM for someone who's intent on breaking the game.

Um... RPG is not WoW or Everquest or LotRO or whatever.

There are no end game challenges or bosses in D&D. There is only what you have prepared as a GM. Some people's campaigns stop at level 9. Some people's campaigns stop at 12 or 14 or 16 or whenever their story is done. Some people start their campaigns at level 1 or 2 or 6 or 12. It all depends on the campaign the GM has set forth. When a story is done, it's done, and wise GMs move on to another set of characters to tell the next story. It's fine to have an on running cast... but the story has to remain challenging, and from what I've read so far... ignoring the rules in favor of ad hoc "for the sake of the story" seems to have not worked out for you too well.

As stated above by other posters, there should be repercussions for character actions. For instance, the druid who seems to be so much of a pain? The one who wanted a Sand Dragon companion at level 9? Why did you give it to him/her? It isn't even an Animal template! It's not an Animal, it's a Dragon! The Intelligence must be less than 3 to qualify for an Animal Companion.

To paraphrase Walter from The Big Lebowski... "This is what happens when you ---- the rules in the ---!"

Have an intervention, first with yourself. Follow the rules to the letter. Then use those rules to tell your players "No."

Enforcing rules is not a Tyrant GM. It's called being a fair arbiter, which is a GM's primary job. It is not a GM vs. Players kind of thing; it is a GM With Players craft a group story based on agreed upon rules.

[Threadnaught]

Um... RPG is not WoW or Everquest or LotRO or whatever.

There are no end game challenges or bosses in D&D. There is only what you have prepared as a GM. Some people's campaigns stop at level 9. Some people's campaigns stop at 12 or 14 or 16 or whenever their story is done.

But there are still bosses, some of which are the boss by virtue of being the strongest, some for their intelligence. There are even some who are the boss because they were elected to be.
The end game challenges are the last things I have planned, right at the end of the game. That sounds like end game to me.


As stated above by other posters, there should be repercussions for character actions. For instance, the druid who seems to be so much of a pain? The one who wanted a Sand Dragon companion at level 9? Why did you give it to him/her? It isn't even an Animal template! It's not an Animal, it's a Dragon! The Intelligence must be less than 3 to qualify for an Animal Companion.

The Druid did not get the Dragon as a companion, even if he could get a dragon, the one in question has 30HD (as well as all related abilities), the Druid has 9.
My complaint wasn't about him having an NPC source of exposition as an overpowered pet. It was about him not understanding "no" as an answer and stalling the game while I explain what is and isn't allowed.
Every time he decides to talk for ages about nothing, I have to repeat myself again and again, and again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y). The only time he shuts up is when I point out how long he's been stalling the game, or when I threaten to kill his character out of nowhere without so much as a roll.

[Bakeru]

People breaking the law? Make the law break them and see how they like it.

Archons.

Archons everywhere.Zelekhut inevitables. Hunting down those that were found guilty is their thing, it's literally what they were made for. Also, they're Lawful Neutral, so they can work against all party alignments.

[Pickford]

What is this Bards level and diplomacy (also what are the modifiers?) to be able to expect auto-passing of any given check? Obviously this doesn't include the opposed rolls. (edit: I would hope)

[Threadnaught]

What is this Bards level and diplomacy (also what are the modifiers?) to be able to expect auto-passing of any given check? Obviously this doesn't include the opposed rolls. (edit: I would hope)

I decided to use The Giant's Diplomacy fix, told both players this and he (the Bard, now a Druid) wouldn't stop complaining about how I "made his character useless". Even though he only failed three Diplomacy rolls (out of a dozen) for that character and those were made with at least +10 to the DC because of the deal he tried to make. Here's the one that ended with both of them dying.


Yo dawg, I know you're a god of Death and you're trying to keep this here weapon from escaping to wreck the world, but you mind letting us, the people who freed it, leave without giving you anything in return while you clean up our mess? I know we really pissed you off by trying to steal it from you, but this is a really good deal, there's no need to kill us over it.

Now, with RAW Diplomacy, he'd have the Demilich as his slave by now, but this guy is angry at everyone who is alive. Especially his brother, due to how he got turned undead.

In the setting, there is a specific location the god of Death couldn't move beyond for certain reasons. The players decided to go rob him, he didn't take his underground city over to them and trick them into freeing his out of control creation.
They ended up causing the end of the world. :smallamused:

[Gnome Alone]

They ended up causing the end of the world. :smallamused:

Huh.
So, uh...
New campaign?

[OzymandiasX]

Sounds like OP is joking.

But if you're not... as many have said, you need to talk to your players. Find out what they want/expect in a game.

-Do they want to have to use some strategy (both in and out of combat) to succeed?
-Do they want a cakewalk where they just roleplay whatever they want and in combat just "press the attack button" until they auto-win?

As foreign as it is to me, some players really do want the second option. These tend to be munchkin players, pulling obscure and/or unbalancing rules from any source they can find, expecting to severely overpower foes through the "cleverness" of the homebrew build that allows crap like stackable feats that add d10 to melee attacks or a druid variant that can have a companion animal 20HD stronger than the druid.

(This kind of player doesn't get invited into the next campaign I run)

If your players don't enjoy the kind of game you enjoy running, maybe find other players or switch sides and become a player for a while.

[Pickford]

I decided to use The Giant's Diplomacy fix, told both players this and he (the Bard, now a Druid) wouldn't stop complaining about how I "made his character useless". Even though he only failed three Diplomacy rolls (out of a dozen) for that character and those were made with at least +10 to the DC because of the deal he tried to make. Here's the one that ended with both of them dying.

Now, with RAW Diplomacy, he'd have the Demilich as his slave by now, but this guy is angry at everyone who is alive. Especially his brother, due to how he got turned undead.

In the setting, there is a specific location the god of Death couldn't move beyond for certain reasons. The players decided to go rob him, he didn't take his underground city over to them and trick them into freeing his out of control creation.
They ended up causing the end of the world. :smallamused:

By RAW he'd be dead. Diplomacy requires at least a minute of negotiation to work. i.e. that one speech would result in the God of Death just killing him.

[Dayaz]

Wait, the druid is always ranting and demanding things be by the RAW, but he tried for over 5 minutes to demand/convince you to let him have a 30hd dragon as his AnCom?

I smell a munchkin

[Averis Vol]

well if he wants to act like a small child, treat him like one. Every time he complains give him simple 1 or 2 word answers. "no", "too bad" "that sucks" etc, etc. Eventually he will realise his complaining is futile and stop doing it.

[Bakeru]

Wait, the druid is always ranting and demanding things be by the RAW, but he tried for over 5 minutes to demand/convince you to let him have a 30hd dragon as his AnCom?

I smell a munchkinThe druid should invest in Gwaeron's Boots. A Scentbinder could work, too, but it costs more and does less.

[Threadnaught]

Sounds like OP is joking.

But if you're not... as many have said, you need to talk to your players. Find out what they want/expect in a game.

I say "totally" a lot when I'm not being sincere. :smallwink:
I'm totally pulling your leg.


-Do they want to have to use some strategy (both in and out of combat) to succeed?
-Do they want a cakewalk where they just roleplay whatever they want and in combat just "press the attack button" until they auto-win?

I'm just gonna be a smartass here and answer with "yes" because. They want both. And I'm trying to give them both because I'm presenting an open world for them. Sometimes I'll plan something I want them to struggle with, other times I'll just throw something out for them to crush as a free action. Obviously enough, the opposite ends up happening.



If your players don't enjoy the kind of game you enjoy running, maybe find other players or switch sides and become a player for a while.

They do enjoy the game, it's just, well. How many people read the main comic here?
I the DM am Roy, the Druid is Elan. He's not stupid, but this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) (Roy's line in the second panel) is still true about him.
I can't think of anyone in the Order who reminds me of my Wizard. 'Cept Belkar for the snarkiness.

[Menzath]

I ignore the rules that would slow down the game

Sounds like you need one of me(or a player like) there.
I am that jerk who has the rule books memorized. All of them. And if it is a little piece I happen to not remember off hand, I know what page it is on and can find it in under 15secs.
Because of people like me the game never slows down.

And smart phones. those really help for those odd things, like how fast do things fall?

But ignoring rules is a tad... crazy? too strong a word but in that direction.
They are there to add balance(not quite realism, but a fairness of sorts I mean.. magic) and to ensure that enemies and players all have some sort of limitation regardless of powers.

[Threadnaught]

Sounds like you need one of me(or a player like) there.
I am that jerk who has the rule books memorized. All of them. And if it is a little piece I happen to not remember off hand, I know what page it is on and can find it in under 15secs.
Because of people like me the game never slows down.


But ignoring rules is a tad... crazy? too strong a word but in that direction.
They are there to add balance(not quite realism, but a fairness of sorts I mean.. magic) and to ensure that enemies and players all have some sort of limitation regardless of powers.

The Diplomacy rules as written are horrible. Food and drink, I generally accept that the players eat/drink enough because it's something that could slow the game to a halt if you constantly keep track of it, unless they're in a hostile enviroment (like they are now). Encumbrance is something I'm yet to start keeping track of, but it's going to massively slow loot distribution. So far they're carrying a total of what I could easily manage to carry in one hand, in the real world, I'm a total weakling. As well as loads and loads of gold.
The only expenses they pay for (other than food/drink and beds) are the Wizard's spells and he's got hold of a Blessed Book. Maybe I should drop some incredibly heavy handed hints about how useful it would be to have X magic item so they could prepare Y spell instead of spell Z which X item mimics.


I've just remembered the Druid's only attempt at a Diplomacy roll as a Druid. This'll make some of you guys laugh.
The players bump into a guy who has a magic sword, the Wizard can learn spells from any spellbook, scroll, carved stone/crystal (as long as they have spells written/carved), nexus or magic item. So the Wizard is very interested in studying the sword. So they ask if he could be allowed to spend some time with the guy's weapon, learning how to replicate the magic himself, the guy offers him some time alone in the corner of his house with the blade, for a price. Druid makes a counter offer and rolls Diplomacy, since the counter-offer is higher than the given price, he auto succeeds on the Diplomacy check.
Wizard complains about the Druid's interference, leaving the Druid to pay the additional cost. And I'm struggling not to laugh as I allow it. It's something he wanted. :smallamused:


I think you guys kinda realize why I usually refer to the Druid as "that ******* Druid" now, huh?

[137beth]

Wow...
just...
wow...

If the druid is disrupting the game, and annoying everyone, just move on without him. When he wants to shut his mouth and play, he can.

[Gnome Alone]

That is a real [expletive] move and you have my permission to tell the druid I think he sounds like a jerk.

Nevertheless... didn't they, like, blow up the entire world? You didn't just hit the reset button on that, didya?

[Threadnaught]

That is a real [expletive] move and you have my permission to tell the druid I think he sounds like a jerk.

Nevertheless... didn't they, like, blow up the entire world? You didn't just hit the reset button on that, didya?

Thing is, he was trying to get a lower price. He seems to have all the bartering skills of Elan. :smallamused:

They inadverdantly caused the world to end in a free for all between the god of destruction, the god of death, the god of death's living weapon created to combat the god of destruction and to rub salt in my players' wounds/punch them in the pride. The Monk they had travelled with earlier.
Minimum consequences still add up if you mess around enough. :smallamused:
Their Bard and Ranger characters are gone forever. It was the Ranger's (aka the Wizard) idea to steal the weapon btw.
They wanted the same setting, so I gave it to them, exact same setting. Just not from when they started the first time through.


Now they're Druid and Wizard in the distant past. Whether they're part of the world's history or an alternate continuity depends on how they wish to treat the backstory of the previous campaign. So far they're too interested in seeing what events lead up to the history they heard about in the future, to go all evil and break the same world twice.


If the druid is disrupting the game, and annoying everyone, just move on without him. When he wants to shut his mouth and play, he can.

Druid is half of my players, the three of us find the game more fun with at least two players. I need him to behave and think more about his actions outside of combat and behave more naturally when in combat. The Wizard has given him the role of party leader, if the Druid wasn't choosing the direction, it'd likely fall to an NPC and that would lead to railroading.
This is why getting rid of him is not an option.

I'd rather have multiple plots happening at once, with the players' input on as many as they think they can handle, than focus on getting them through the main story. Even if one's a mundane job in an orchard and another's being the entertainment at a child's birthday party, both mutual decisions between my players and jokes from me. Seriously, they were right next to a job for arresting a half-dragon.