Sorcerers and Spells Known [3.P/PF]

[PlusSixPelican]

Is there any way to get past the RATHER tight limit of spells known? Human favored class bonus helps (until you get to 9th), and Arcane bloodline's New Arcana annoyingly denies an additional 9th level spell as well. Is there anything I can do?

[Rahdjan]

Would wands, scrolls, rods, staves and runestaves be an option?

[PlusSixPelican]

Wands don't use my caster level, and therefore most spells are terribad on them, scrolls aren't really effectual, I don't think rods help, and a runestaff is pricey as f*ck to put a 9th level spell on, and even more so if I don't burn a feat (and a lot of time to) craft it.

[Raven777]

Paragon Surge? (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ox7t?The-Mini-Guide-to-Paragon-Surge)

Staff of Wish? (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m0ym&page=2?Limited-WishSpell-Staff-abuse)

[PlusSixPelican]

I like the -idea- of Paragon Surge, but it's kinda cheesey.

As for Wish, can I just wish to know more spells?

[Daftendirekt]

The Sand Shaper PrC from Sandstorm adds a nice number of good and decent spells to your spells known list. It's an excellent one to take as a sorcerer.

[GenericMook]

Drake Helms, from one of the Eberron books, are a pretty nice idea, and kinda easy to refluff. The Dragonshards used for them do get kinda pricey, so I'd use it more for getting lower-leveled-but-useful spells.

Plus, you get a helm with yellow crystals. How cool is that?

[navar100]

Play a wizard. Seriously. The "rather tight limit" is the whole point. If the human favored class bonus is not enough for you then play a wizard where you can know every spell you can find. If you want to know every spell and cast spontaneously, plays Ars Magica.

[Slipperychicken]

You can spend at least one metric crapton of money for Pages of Spell Knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/page-of-spell-knowledge). You might want Craft Wondrous Item (and get someone else to supply the spell requirement) so you can realistically afford it.


EDIT:
There's also a 3.5 trick where you get this one feat called Master Wand which lets you power wands with your own spell slots, and get a bunch of single-charge wands (which are very, very cheap). Then you effectively have an unreasonably large spells known list which is only bound by your wealth and willingness to do bookkeeping.

[PlusSixPelican]

I like the pages. I might buy one of each level...oh, can you use one from another list? Such as a Sorcerer using Control Winds.

[Slipperychicken]

I like the pages. I might buy one of each level...oh, can you use one from another list? Such as a Sorcerer using Control Winds.

You can only cast it if it's both on your list, and if you're also a spontaneous caster.


This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes. It contains the knowledge of a single arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the item is crafted). If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known. A page of spell knowledge is priced based on the spell's cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell level, unless the spell doesn't appear on either of those spell lists, in which case it is based on the highest spell level as it appears on any other spell list. For example, a spell that is on the 4th-level inquisitor list and the 2nd-level paladin list is priced as a 4th-level spell.

I personally think it's weird that this item doesn't give benefits to Wizards, whose entire theme is spells written on paper.

[PlusSixPelican]

Ah, okay. Still awesome, because I can craft up a couple of these after hiring out the casting. Yay~

[Slipperychicken]

Ah, okay. Still awesome, because I can craft up a couple of these after hiring out the casting. Yay~

And if you have a higher cheese tolerance, I edited an earlier post (#9) to include a trick which 3.5 sorcerers had to augment their spells known.

[PlusSixPelican]

Master Wand is epic cheese, in the sense that it's epic and cheese, but not like, some insane, legendary amount of cheese. Also, taking Craft Wand...eh.

But anyways, is there anything that increases the amount of spells I know in my character's brain? I know Expnded Arcana is there (and the build all this for took one at 19), I'm just curious as to what I can do naturally before my inventory comes into play.

And also everyone thanks for all the help. OuO

[Thurbane]

If your DM allows Dragon Magazine, Knowstones are made specifically for this. Dragon issue 333, but here's a recap: http://blackmarches.wikidot.com/forum/t-420135/are-knowstones-allowed

[KillingAScarab]

But anyways, is there anything that increases the amount of spells I know in my character's brain? I know Expnded Arcana is there (and the build all this for took one at 19), I'm just curious as to what I can do naturally before my inventory comes into play.There is something I have been working on. Draconic Heritage: song dragon is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... unnatural.

If you've got song dragon heritage, you have perform as a class skill always. What does a sorcerer do with that? Take enough ranks to qualify for prestige bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard). You will take a hit to casting as soon as you enter. :smallfrown: However, you do gain bard spells on your spell list, +2 to caster level for three schools, bardic knowledge and bardic music. It's a little unclear how many uses of bardic music you get per day, so assuming that's just one, take the extra music feat, so now you're up to five uses minimum. If the DM lets the PrC stack with your casting class levels for determining bardic music per day, instead take melodic casting right away and move on. Otherwise, go back into sorcerer after Prestige Bard 2 to avoid losing more spellcasting while you earn a feat.

All of this should let you enter Lyric Thaumaturge. Lyric Thaumaturge says it advances bard casting, and since prestige bards are suggested to be used in campaigns where the regular ones aren't, congratulations you're still advancing your sorcerer spellcasting with bard list added. You also get bonus spells and spell secrets: extra slots and extra spells known... up to 6th level.

So, with an incredibly restrictive path of class levels and feats, you can get an extra spell known at each of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th level spells. At the cost of a 9th level spell known.

Wait, why did I start this with a Palpatine quote? This isn't the quick and easy path to power at all. :smallconfused:

[strider24seven]

Play a wizard. Seriously. The "rather tight limit" is the whole point. If the human favored class bonus is not enough for you then play a wizard where you can know every spell you can find. If you want to know every spell and cast spontaneously, plays Ars Magica.

Except that past level 9 or so, when 3rd level slots become plentiful, a Half Elf Sorcerer is almost strictly better than a Wizard because Paragon Surge exists. Almost. Free metamagic can still potentially make someone favour the Wizard, but knowing the entire Wizard/Sorcerer list spontaneously all the time and not being tied to a spellbook is generally superior to only knowing every spell you can find.

[PlusSixPelican]

Paragon Surge seems like the kind of thing most DMs would just ban, or ban once they saw it abused properly.

[avr]

Another item which may help is the ring of spell knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-spell-knowledge).

The paragon surge tricks may be acceptable cheese in some campaigns, especially if used in moderation. You know the people you game with, if it won't fly don't go for it.

[Vizzerdrix]

The feats Mother Cyst and Cerebrosis each add 10 or 11 spells known to your list.

I'd also like to second Drake Helms, knowstones, and runestaves.

My personal favorite is Mage of the Arcane Order. Have ALL the spells!

[Daftendirekt]

There is something I have been working on. Draconic Heritage: song dragon is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... unnatural.


I got my nerd knowledge mixed up. I was thinking that was spoofing Harry Potter. Double-checked: Star Wars. :smallfrown:

[navar100]

Except that past level 9 or so, when 3rd level slots become plentiful, a Half Elf Sorcerer is almost strictly better than a Wizard because Paragon Surge exists. Almost. Free metamagic can still potentially make someone favour the Wizard, but knowing the entire Wizard/Sorcerer list spontaneously all the time and not being tied to a spellbook is generally superior to only knowing every spell you can find.

Of course knowing every spell and casting spontaneously is superior. That's the point. It's a feature of the game you can't have both. Without cheese, one way to get many spells known as a sorcerer is arcane bloodline and human favored class variant. That is truly a lot. If you're still not satisfied, you can spend feats on Expanded Arcana to learn some spells. If you're allowed 3rd party Pathfinder approved feats there's also Extra Spells, but I think it's redundant and inferior to Expanded Arcana which you're allowed to take multiple times anyway. If you're still not satisfied, there's no more to be said. The game is not designed to give you the PHB as your spellbook and allow you to cast any spell you want whenever you want.

[PlusSixPelican]

Yeah, Paragon Surge just feels...excessive. I just wanted a few more here and there to not have to pluck too many of the spells I want out.

[Raven777]

Except that past level 9 or so, when 3rd level slots become plentiful, a Half Elf Sorcerer is almost strictly better than a Wizard because Paragon Surge exists. Almost. Free metamagic can still potentially make someone favour the Wizard, but knowing the entire Wizard/Sorcerer list spontaneously all the time and not being tied to a spellbook is generally superior to only knowing every spell you can find.

Paragon Surge gives you any feat. Metamagics are feats.

As for being excessive, we are Sorcerers. The word excessive is tattooed on our hearts. In Draconic. Riding a motor bike. An half-fey motor bike. Which is on fire.

[Saidoro]

Paizo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/page-of-spell-knowledge) loves (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-spell-knowledge) Sorcerers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/vestment-mnemonic).

[Raven777]

Vestment, Mnemonic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/vestment-mnemonic)

No — no words. No words to describe it. Poetry! They should have sent a poet. So beautiful. So beautiful... I had no idea.

[Morcleon]

To add to everything else, Dragon Compendium has quite a few heritage feats, which each add one spell per level to your spell list, but also disallow you from casting a certain type of spell. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5076244&postcount=30) is a nice review of them, as well as being link to another thread of similar nature.

[Saidoro]

No — no words. No words to describe it. Poetry! They should have sent a poet. So beautiful. So beautiful... I had no idea.
Agreed, the vetement wold have been a strong item even at ten times the printed price. Of course, the main difficulty is convincing the wizard to let you carry his spellbook. He has uses for it too, after all. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/magaambyan-arcanist)

[Slipperychicken]

Sorcerers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/vestment-mnemonic).

Who would make these? :smallconfused: It requires both that the creator be a spontaneous spellcaster, and be able to prepare Mnemonic Enhancer, which is a Wizard-only spell.

[TuggyNE]

Who would make these? :smallconfused: It requires both that the creator be a spontaneous spellcaster, and be able to prepare Mnemonic Enhancer, which is a Wizard-only spell.

All the Sorcerer 1/Wizard 7/Cleric 12's running around, of course!

More seriously, magic item cooperation; unless PF changed it, the creator can be a Sorc, and cooperate with a Wizard who has the item creation feat and spell. (Funky, but that's how it works!)

[Kornaki]

Obviously a wizard dips sorcerer to make a killing in the vestment business

[Slipperychicken]

More seriously, magic item cooperation; unless PF changed it, the creator can be a Sorc, and cooperate with a Wizard who has the item creation feat and spell. (Funky, but that's how it works!)

Ah, it does work that way in PF. I didn't see it earlier because the requirements for making items are listed in 3 different places on the same page (and it's also 4am. Why the hell am I still awake?).

Additionally, a single person could have made it by increasing the DC by 5 for each prereq he didn't meet.

[Susano-wo]

Just going to second the Human FC option, given that, discounting the 1st 3 lvls where you have access only to oth lvl spells, you have 17 spells extra of up to 8th lvl.
Aside from that there is a feat that gives you +1 spell known of your highest level, or 2 known of any lower level, in the Advanced Players Guide
depending on how strict your group is on the order of operation for leveling, that is 1-2 extra 9th level spells if you need more.

[PlusSixPelican]

Just going to second the Human FC option, given that, discounting the 1st 3 lvls where you have access only to oth lvl spells, you have 17 spells extra of up to 8th lvl.
Aside from that there is a feat that gives you +1 spell known of your highest level, or 2 known of any lower level, in the Advanced Players Guide
depending on how strict your group is on the order of operation for leveling, that is 1-2 extra 9th level spells if you need more.

Expanded Arcana wouldn't give out two ninth level spells until around level...dunno, but it's when hypothetical tenth level spells open up.

[Theprettiestorc]

O.O. I'm reading all this, and it gives me good ideas.

But then I realize I took the Crossblooded Archetype, and if I minded spells known...I wouldn't have.

(Still, when you're playing a gestalt Monk//Sorcerer, you start to gish out.)

[rollforeigninit]

There are also the Dragon Magazine Bloodline Feats. They each add one spell/level to your spells known depending on which Bloodline is chosen. They are not usually all particularly strong spells but they can add lots of flexibility. Gotta watch them though. Each Bloodline feat makes you give up a spell descriptor worth of spells totally off your spell list no spell trigger items or anything. I know lots of people are very Dragon Mag shy so feel free to ignore this at your leisure.

[Susano-wo]

Expanded Arcana wouldn't give out two ninth level spells until around level...dunno, but it's when hypothetical tenth level spells open up.

I meant total. As in you can take it at 17th and 19th :smallsmile:(unless your DM is strict about the order of operation on leveling up--which actually doesn't matter. Looking at the level up order, class comes first, then feats and skills)

[Raven777]

Sorcerers get 9th level casting capability at 18th level, not 17th. They are 1 level behind Wizards.

[Thurbane]

Who would make these? :smallconfused: It requires both that the creator be a spontaneous spellcaster, and be able to prepare Mnemonic Enhancer, which is a Wizard-only spell.
Ultimate Magus?

[Susano-wo]

Sorcerers get 9th level casting capability at 18th level, not 17th. They are 1 level behind Wizards.

wow, I derped on that one :smallredface:

so yeah, 1 extra 9th level, barring some bonus feat somewhere:smallmad: