Cool spell combinations: Giant Size then Alter Self

[Pandyman]

Giant Size causes a creature that it's cast upon to become huge or larger, and gain untyped bonuses based on a table, though I'm sure most people rule them to be size bonuses. Now, after taking this new size, you take your time to cast Alter self, which you use to change back to your original medium form. According to Alter self and the polymorph subschool, "if a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell"

I just need a few confirmations, but I feel that this is a valid combo to retain strength and constitution bonuses from giant size without being constrained to fighting in wide open areas. On top of that you would also get back your loss of Attack bonus. I'm sure that this is posted somewhere, but I just couldn't find it.

Anyone have any thoughts on it, or possibly any other cool combinations like this?

[OzymandiasX]

As a GM who values the spirit of the rules over the letter of the rules, I'd say that sounds like an exploit and wouldn't allow it. :)


If you want other 'cool combinations' that inventive players use, take something like Diehard and combine it with drowning rules. You can use this to take infinite, steady damage, by continually drowning back to -1, as the rules put you at a flat -1 whenever you drown, even if you were -9 or further. Now enhance this by wearing a watertight helm that is filled with water and some of the many feats/classes that allow you to act normally while at negative hit points or extend how far negative you can go without being dead dead. Bam. Infinite auto-healing.

According to the rules, this works.

[Cruiser1]

Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell
That means your base ability scores aren't changed, however size modifiers to ability scores should still change. When you cast Giant Size and become Colossal, you gain a +32 size bonus to STR. When you cast Alter Self and return to medium, you're no longer Colossal, so lose that +32 size bonus.

However what you can do, is cast Polymorph or Shapechange to turn into a creature with a high base STR (like a Firbolg) and then Alter Self back into your normal form, to have the high physical base stat of the special creature (excluding size bonuses again) and the appearance of your normal self.

[Pandyman]

That means your base ability scores aren't changed, however size modifiers to ability scores should still change. When you cast Giant Size and become Colossal, you gain a +32 size bonus to STR. When you cast Alter Self and return to medium, you're no longer Colossal, so lose that +32 size bonus.

However what you can do, is cast Polymorph or Shapechange to turn into a creature with a high base STR (like a Firbolg) and then Alter Self back into your normal form, to have the high physical base stat of the special creature (excluding size bonuses again) and the appearance of your normal self.

As per raw, size modifiers apply to Armor Class, attack rolls, Hide checks, grapple checks, and doesn't include the abilities modified by the size chart from the monster manual. Any ability increase from size in a spell is generally noted as a "size bonus", and the monster manual table was only meant for monster progression. Alter self never touches your ability scores, because it's considerate like that.

And to extend the topic.

You have permanent double polymorph any object, which are fun abuse.

and as noted above, Polymorph any object to something colossal permanently, and alter self to become medium again if you don't want the size mod penalties.

and of course the not broken ones, that are just fun.

Grease and Slow to make people spend their action to get up just to fall again.

Faerie Fire and Obscuring Mist, the first denies concealment while the second will allow the party concealment.

That's all I got from the top of my head at the moment. Carry on.

[Cruiser1]

Alter self never touches your ability scores, because it's considerate like that.
Indeed, however Alter Self does touch your size. The Giant Size spell is unclear about whether it ties the stat bonus to the larger size. In other words, if Giant Size is a dual buff that gives you Colossal size, and also independently gives you +32 STR, then you can undo one and leave the other alone. However, if Giant Size makes you Colossal, and also a bonus that says while you're Colossal you get +32 STR, then Alter Self would remove it (indirectly) through changing your size.

You have permanent double polymorph any object, which are fun abuse.
My understanding is this common abuse doesn't actually work. Polymorph Any Object looks at your base creature type, not your current creature type, when deciding how long buffs last. Polymorph Any Object works like Polymorph except where stated differently. Polymorph allows you to change into "the same type as the subject" or a set of allowed types. The "same type as the subject" is ambiguous, but has to mean the base type, not the polymorphed type. Otherwise an Outsider polymorphed into a Humanoid, wouldn't be able to Polymorph back into their original form (because "the same type as the subject" would be Humanoid, and Outsider isn't in the allowed type list).