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FreakyCheeseMan
2013-04-12, 11:56 PM
Something unusual just occurred to me - is Binder the best class for a player new to 3.5?

My arguments for it being the case:

1: Impossible to screw up. The binder doesn't rely on any attributes, doesn't require any feats to function (though some are nice), and always gets access to its full Vestige list. Seriously, try to make a bad Binder - I don't think there's a single other class in the game where that's as difficult to do.

2: Flexible. New players may not always know what role they want - they may start out thinking casting is cool, then realize that it's more complexity than they want to deal with at the moment - alternatively, they may start off wanting to Melee, then realize that Melee is boring and want some more options. Binder lets them explore different paths, without having to make a new character.

3: Effective. Binders are a long way from T1, but they've got enough cool stuff to make a difference, so long as the party isn't crazy optimized. So, the new guy will get to get his licks in.

4: Simple to Build. Binders don't have to make a whole lot of choices - apart from the bare minimum of any character (Fests, skills, items), Binders just have to pick a handful of bonus feats, a handful of Soul Augmentations from a short list, and the vestiges they want - they don't even have to keep track of spells by level, it's just a straight "You can bind this many vestiges, up to this level of vestige."

5: Strong defensive options. New players tend to suck at defending themselves - the fact that so many Vestiges give cool defensive buffs or bonuses, plus the defensive class features of the binder itself, make it more likely that new players won't die so often.

6: Tour of Everything. This point could actually be argued either way, but... Binder uses pretty much every mechanic in the game, but they don't have to. So, over the course of play, players can get introduced to spell-like abilities, melee combat, charging, grappling, ranged combat, stealth, skill-monkeying and everything else - letting them get familiar with the different systems piece-by-piece, without getting drowned by having to use ones they're not familiar with.

7: Great Fluff, Great Roleplay. The Binder has arguably the best and most developed fluff in 3.5 - it gives new players something cool to latch onto, and to build character ideas off of. Furthermore, the effects of failed pacts can be seen as little role-play exercises for the character, to help get them into the spirit of things.

Urpriest
2013-04-13, 01:05 AM
Binders can do a lot of things, but to be good at anything specific you have to build for it. Without having a good idea of how any of that works, I don't think they'd be that great a choice for a new player.

avr
2013-04-13, 01:25 AM
If you're starting at level 1-3 ToB classes are simple, effective, good defensively, hard to screw up, and fixable if you've somehow made bad choices or changeable if you want something different.

You get introduced to less subsystems - but the other side of your 6th point is that this will likely be easier for new players.

Binders make poor skillmonkeys by default with their 2+INT skill points and no direct bonus from INT either IMO.

The fluff/RP is excellent for binders though I do agree.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-04-13, 01:38 AM
Binders may not excel at anything without building for it, but they get a lot of pretty decent abilities, enough to make a contribution - they may not be the star of the show, but it seems like there's enough in the vestiges for them to be effective in most rolls.

No, they can't be skill monkeys by virtue of points alone, but some of the vestiges give nice bonuses or special abilities(+5 listen; + Binder Level Search; +16 Hide/Move Silently; +4 Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate, and take 10 on any of those; +8 to any knowledge; + Binder Level Appraise; Free Bardic Knowledge; +8 Ride; use trained-only skills if untrained; re-roll any skill check once per 5 rounds.)

Snowbluff
2013-04-13, 02:27 AM
Binders can do a lot of things, but to be good at anything specific you have to build for it. Without having a good idea of how any of that works, I don't think they'd be that great a choice for a new player.

I agree. Even if it's hard to mess up the build, it's really easy to mess up the Binder during play.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-04-13, 02:31 AM
I agree. Even if it's hard to mess up the build, it's really easy to mess up the Binder during play.

True, but I see that as being much less frustrating to a new player - "You did some things wrong today, here's how you can do them right tomorrow" is much less annoying than "You did some things wrong when you built that character, either tough it out, ask for a re-do or start over."

Greenish
2013-04-13, 02:50 AM
Your points do stand, but on the other hand, binders are fairly complicated (especially when you'll have more than one vestige at the time). Now, most new players who choose the 3.5 as their system may not be that intimidated by complicated mechanics, but even then, ToB offers such an intuitive (you hit people), hard to mess up (pick what seems cool, and it'll work), simple to use (use that maneuver to do this) system, it's hard to beat.

Of course, much depends on the player in question. Some are drawn to complex and flexible characters, others just want to have mighty thews and hit monsters in the face.

ArcturusV
2013-04-13, 02:58 AM
Kinda why I've pointed new players to clerics.

The spell list thing can be daunting though if you're teaching you can help a guy find spells that do what he wants to do. Let him try out various concepts. With full access, all the time, if they find out a concept just doesn't work? Next day select different spells. While on a fairly tough body that isn't gonna get sniped out right fast. And has the sheer power to be effective and useful even with low system mastery.

Haven't tried teaching people with Binders. So I can't say how it goes. Cleric's worked out pretty well. Especially if I teach someone with a solo campaign.

Mnemnosyne
2013-04-13, 03:01 AM
I like the binder, but I think there are definitely better choices for a first time player. Binder is...not terrible, but if you're there to give the guy advice anyway, he can build, with help, some other type of character. If he wants melee, I would definitely point him at Crusader or Warblade, while if he wants arcane casting, the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer are hard to screw up.

Binder definitely has a big hurdle in actually playing it effectively. And honestly, I think binders before they get two binds at a time are rather weak and ineffective half the time, since each vestige only has one or two good abilities, for the most part, making them difficult to play well unless you are good at anticipating the day's needs.

WhatBigTeeth
2013-04-13, 09:53 AM
God no.

The same arguments could be made for a Cleric, and it doesn't require anywhere near the memorization that the Binder does (Want to resist energy with a Cleric? Skim the 1-2 page index of available Cleric spells for an entry that concerns resisting energy. Want to resist Energy with a Binder? Either read through every vestige entry until you find energy resist within your available vestige level, or just know the options by heart).

Amnestic
2013-04-13, 09:59 AM
Binder- Best Class for New Player?

Not in my eyes. The amount of vestiges and all their different abilities can be extremely overwhelming to a new player. Yes, only a few are relevant at each level, but once you get into multiple vestiges bound it can be very confusing dealing with them.

I'd attribute a lot of this to the way ToM sets out the Vestiges in alphabetical order rather than by Vestige level. I could see it being less of an issue if you made Vestige Cards, though that would take a fair amount of preparation on your part.

As for classes best for new players in general, I'd say ToB for melee and the Invokers for casters.

StreamOfTheSky
2013-04-13, 10:11 AM
Not at all. The vestiges all have a bunch of logically unrelated abilities thrown together to fit the "flavor" of the vestige, so you need to constantly skim through them to find what you want.

And while you can change vestiges each day, you're stuck with your feats forever. Which is problematic when a significant chunk of vestiges give bonus feats and encourage one sort of combat build or another.

It could definitely be screwed up. I agree with other people, CoDzilla is the hardest to screw up. The spell list may be daunting at first, but he can learn it over time and he can change what he preps daily, he doesn't need to choose which ones to "learn" like a sorc or wizard. Druid can be slightly complicated due to wildshaping and handling the summons. But another player could control the summons if needed, and wild shape is complex due to needing whole new stat blocks, which can be done between sessions. Or just play a Shapeshifting Druid (PHB2)...

Blackhawk748
2013-04-13, 10:46 AM
while i agree Binders are awesome, and they prbly would be ok to start someone out with one, i have found that the Barbarian is the easiest class to start someone with, i mean how hard is it to yell RAGE and beat the tar out of the thing in front of you?

Chaosvii7
2013-04-13, 11:06 AM
as far as levels 1-3 go, I think all the classes fall around the same relative level of difficulty for new players. That's the thing though; All the classes have a fairly balanced start, so all that matters is how far you think you're going to go and how much they're willing to learn.