Eugene slacking off on the job?

[Menarker]

We already know that scrying in heaven's afterlife is able to bypass the protection of Cloister. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html)

We know that Eugene was supposed to be maintaining watch over Xykon and was supposed to alert Roy via haunting him if he left Azure city. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html)

But so far, he doesn't seem to have done anything relevant. No hauntings, no letting Roy that the Azurite's rebel base destroyed, Xykon's phylactery has been found retrieved, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html) or that Xykon has made his own fortress in the Astral Plane to hide it in (along with hundreds of traps and having it magically alert Xykon of intruders). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html)

In fact, Lord Hinjo is more up to date on what is going on than the OotS, courtesy of the sending message at least alerting that the phylactery has been re-taken and the base destroyed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html)

What IS taking Eugene so long? Was he distracted from the scrying at the time? Is there a specific condition like a triggering timeframe when Eugene can haunt Roy? (All the previous times seem to be when Roy was in period of deep rest, but I don't recall any direct statement saying that he couldn't appear to Roy outside of that time frame)

On a tangential side note though, this would probably be for the best. Since if Eugene was scrying on Xykon and only Xykon, then he would not have known that the phylactery was switched with a very identical decoy since that was done by Redcloak away from the eyesight of Xykon. Thus if Eugene tells the OotS that the Astral-Plane Fortress is where the phylactery is and they venture to take it and try to destroy it... they'll suffer through all the traps, and have the alerted Xykon on their tail only for them to possibly find out later that the thing was a fake and the entire semi-suicidal run was an entirely pointless goose-chase! They would have been better served if they were entirely ignorant of the fortress's existence!

[Belkar<3]

That is an interesting point. I hadn't thought of that. Rich probably didn't want to upset the plot of Tarquin and vamping Durkon.

[EmperorSarda]

We don't know if the destruction of the Rebel base and Xykon and co. going to the Astral plane. If comic 865 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html) is any indication, then it has probably been at most a few hours since the destruction of the rebel base, as I doubt Niu would have waited longer than half a day to report.

[F.Harr]

Can you haunt someone who's activly fighting for their life?

[MoleMage]

Can you haunt someone who's activly fighting for their life?

This is what I think is the issue. In the past, Eugene has only ever haunted Roy at nighttime, and the party hasn't stopped to rest since the phylactery thing (allowing for days to not line up exactly between when Team Evil is on panel and when the Order of the Stick is on panel).

[Mike Havran]

Eugene also tried to contact Roy during the day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html).

And, technically, he was supposed to warn Roy when Xykon leaves Azure City. And Xykon was going to the Astral plane pretty often. Did Eugene think that's not an important information for Roy? Or is something other preventing the contact?

[Syreniac]

Eugene also tried to contact Roy during the day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html).

And, technically, he was supposed to warn Roy when Xykon leaves Azure City. And Xykon was going to the Astral plane pretty often. Did Eugene think that's not an important information for Roy? Or is something other preventing the contact?

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of abjuration-y effect set up by the Draketeeth that might be interfering with him manifesting. Alternatively, the Xykon thing might be perhaps a little out-of-sync with the 'main' plotline, as Xykon is otherwise taking a fair amount of time getting to Girards Gate.

[skim172]

I agree that the Giant just doesn't want to complicate the plot by introducing yet another character into play, especially since Eugene doesn't have much to do with the existing narrative. While it would make sense for Eugene to warn Roy about other goings-on, from a storytelling standpoint, it would add little to the readers' experience, since the audience knows everything Eugene would tell Roy and Roy can't act on anything Eugene tells him at the moment - the end of the Resistance would be distressing, but Roy can't do much about that. It would be effectively just rehash stuff that's we've already seen.

I also think that it would kind of ruin the suspense if Eugene could act as some sort of omniscient ethereal spy for Roy, scrying everything ahead of time and coming back to tell Roy what to expect. That's just cheating, really.

So I imagine that there are restrictions on what Eugene can or can't do - I think he said as much in one of the early strips. Maybe Eugene can only scry on Roy and not Xykon. Or maybe, even though the sword was reforged, it still can't link to the beyond. Or maybe the angels caught onto Eugene's doings and decided to put him in a "time-out." Or Eugene has given up on Roy ever succeeding.

[RunicLGB]

Or Eugene has given up on Roy ever succeeding.

That seems most likely given his past character, but I do hope he might somday within the confines of the comic actually show why hes supposed to be getting into the LG heaven. Some other ideas:

Eugene moved his scry sensor onto the order and realized they weren't going to be able to find the gate, and is currently trying to scry through Girrards Illusions to find it before going down to tell Roy.

Xykon (maybe Redcloak, but less likely) figured out that someone was scrying on them, even through the Cloister and took counter steps.

[JavaScribe]

This is what I think is the issue. In the past, Eugene has only ever haunted Roy at nighttime, and the party hasn't stopped to rest since the phylactery thing (allowing for days to not line up exactly between when Team Evil is on panel and when the Order of the Stick is on panel).

Indeed, telling them about Xykon isn't their most immediate concern. Since Niu only just sent her sending, that means the Order should have about 2 days before Team Evil arrives, since they need to recharge their spell slots once to fortify Xykon's lair and a second time for their arrival at the gate.

[Psyren]

What would Eugene popping in to tell Roy about the resistance or the phylactery accomplish now? Roy is already anticipating TE up in his grill in a matter of hours if not rounds. There's nothing Eugene could tell him that would help him prepare or make him more alert at this point.

Also, Xykon hasn't actually left AC yet, minus the planar travel bit.


Or Eugene has given up on Roy ever succeeding.

This is also possible but I doubt it. He was skeptical of his son's chances before, but until Roy dies nobody else can do it anyway. He has nothing to lose and everything to gain by assisting.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I suspect Roy was scryed by Eugene, who in a rare moment of good judgement decided that the news could wait, for some/all of the above given reasons.

Alternately, Eugene could still be in time out for hijacking Shojo's summoning spell.

[RunicLGB]

In fact, Burning the files on Varsuvius' actions under the soul splice might have warranted greate sanctions on his haunting rights.

[Sky_Schemer]

Another possible explanation: Eugene is not scrying on Xykon at all, because he's a huge ass with a chip on his shoulder.

[FlawedParadigm]

It honestly never crossed my mind after Eugene's overly enthusiastic agreement ("Oh, absolutely!" or something like that) that Eugene even for a second intended to keep his word. I assumed he was being sarcastic and had no intention of helping. Actually I don't honestly expect to see Eugene in the strip ever again, except maybe at the end.

Probably of him going to the afterlife - possibly not even the Lawful Good one, given his posthumous actions - and ending up miserable because no one else actually wants him there.

[Porthos]

There is another possibility. It could be that Eugene could only manifiest because of the Greenhilt Sword. But now that the sword has been imbued with starmetal, it could be that he can't manifest to Roy anymore. We already know it is harmful to the undead. And we know it's harmful to extra-planar critters. Isn't much of a stretch to think it is keeping spirits away as well.

[RunicLGB]

There is another possibility. It could be that Eugene could only manifiest because of the Greenhilt Sword. But now that the sword has been imbued with starmetal, it could be that he can't manifest to Roy anymore. We already know it is harmful to the undead. And we know it's harmful to extra-planar critters. Isn't much of a stretch to think it is keeping spirits away as well.

The part of me that has hopes for Eugene likes this idea. Especially since Tarquin just switched to a whip, a perfect disarming weapon.

Imagine during their next encounter: Tarquin disarms Roy and takes the sword up like a trophy, and as soon as he does a screaming Eugene pops in:

:smallfurious:JERK! I NEVER WOULD HAVE BUSTED MY ETHEREAL BACKSIDE SCRYING FOR YOU IF I KNEW YOU WOULD JUST IGNORE ME! Oh wait, you heard that?

[Jay R]

Given past history, I do not count on Eugene to either:
1. continue on with a task after he committed to it, or
2. support Roy on this quest.

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that he's now distracted trying to get ethereal with Violet's sister.

[Forikroder]

its possible taht whatever blocked Durkons find the path is also blocking Eugenes haunting

or the astrals have him tied up after waht happened last time he went to visit

or maybe hes watching Xykon right now and going to report to Roy about the exact location of Xykons tomb vault thing and ways around some of the defenses

[FujinAkari]

Given past history, I do not count on Eugene to either:
1. continue on with a task after he committed to it, or


???

The dude did nothing but try and finish a task for like thirty years, forsaking his family and his comfort in the pursuit of said Task. I don't really like Eugene, but the one thing you CAN count on him for is to stay true to his word.

[137beth]

Given past history, I do not count on Eugene to either:
1. continue on with a task after he committed to it, or
2. support Roy on this quest.

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that he's now distracted trying to get ethereal with Violet's sister.

Violet's sister is already out of the area where Eugene can get to, her quest was completed.

[Forikroder]

???

The dude did nothing but try and finish a task for like thirty years, forsaking his family and his comfort in the pursuit of said Task. I don't really like Eugene, but the one thing you CAN count on him for is to stay true to his word.

what task could you possibly be reffering to?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html (panel 4)

i think Eugene will definently help Roy as mcuh as he can, but hes more interested in killing Xykon then stopping team evil

[FujinAkari]

what task could you possibly be reffering to?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html (panel 4)


The fact that he stopped pursuing an oath when he was in his 40's - 50's in no way changes the fact that he had been pursuing it since he was in his teens to early 20's.

That is about thirty years where I come from.

That 20 years passed before he died of old age in his 70's to 80's is similarly irrelevant. Eugene is extremely reliable in doing what he sets out to do, and he spent decades trying to fulfill his word.

[Forikroder]

The fact that he stopped pursuing an oath when he was in his 40's - 50's in no way changes the fact that he had been pursuing it since he was in his teens to early 20's.

That is about thirty years where I come from.

That 20 years passed before he died of old age in his 70's to 80's is similarly irrelevant. Eugene is extremely reliable in doing what he sets out to do, and he spent decades trying to fulfill his word.

if he gave up on killing Xykon 20 years before he died, and was married to his wife for 3 years then thats a good 10 years that he spent making a family

honestly i think the timelines dont quite match up, Roys mom said that he was extremely focused but only at one thing so when he met his future wife and got dedicated to making her his woman that should have really removed any intention in him to go after Xykon anymore

seems like hed have to have been an active adventurer, while romanticising with his future wife and still actively trying to go after Xykon then 10 years after theyd been married tell his party that it was a stupid oath anyway

that would ahve been supposedly 40-50 years after he made the oath which should put him at 60-70 years old yet still have quite the youthful beard on him

maybe the prequal books explain it better but everything ive read in the strips shows he didnt really try to kill Xykon for very long before he focused elsewhere

[RunicLGB]

maybe the prequal books explain it better but everything ive read in the strips shows he didnt really try to kill Xykon for very long before he focused elsewhere

The prequel Books do include a bit with Eugene. I won't spoiler beyond saying that it was implied he gave up the search for Xykon specifically to become a better family man.

[Forikroder]

The prequel Books do include a bit with Eugene. I won't spoiler beyond saying that it was implied he gave up the search for Xykon specifically to become a better family man.

in the comic it makes it seem like he jsut eventually got bored of it and stopped caring

based on the flashback panel its seems like the party was planning some quest that had nothing to do with Xykon and Eugene jsut went with the flow and gave up on killing Xykon even calling it a stupid quest i cant even imagine that he actually tried hard to complete the oath for 30 years before his death

kinda thinking the conversation went something like this

"so we got a quest from some guy to go to some place and do something"
"sounds good"
"what about Xykon? i made an oath to kill him"
"well we havent been able to find him yet but if its that important to you..."
"eh... never mind guys it was a stupid oath anyway"

honestly i can imagine him doing light research on Xykon and trying to find him but hardly butting real blood sweat and tears into completing his oath

[RunicLGB]

Thats one of the sad parts about the prequels: they provide some excellent depth for things in the main comic. Really if you have the cash to spare I highly recommend them.

Back on topic:

If Eugene were going to blow off this quest I think the giant would have had that enter the narrative much earlier, like right when Roy left the after life. By leaving it open as a loose end, I believe the Giant is leaving it open to come back at some point for a plot point.

Of course he could just as easily subvert it, but yet again I'm biased, I believe that Eugene could really live up to his alignment, and I'd love to see it happen.

Here's a thought: Eugene can't do much on the Material plane cus hes a ghost, but in life he was a relatively high level Wizard. What are the odds that he could astral project, or otherwise become physical in the Astral Plane, and make a play on the fake!Phylactery himself?

[FlawedParadigm]

The fact that he stopped pursuing an oath when he was in his 40's - 50's in no way changes the fact that he had been pursuing it since he was in his teens to early 20's.

That is about thirty years where I come from.

That 20 years passed before he died of old age in his 70's to 80's is similarly irrelevant. Eugene is extremely reliable in doing what he sets out to do, and he spent decades trying to fulfill his word.

Yeah, but the entire reason he's been kept out of the LG afterlife and Roy wasn't was explicitly stated to be because Eugene gave up on the oath with decades of life left in him, while Roy died for the cause. However long he kept up with it, he didn't keep up with it for long enough to offend the Gods.

SoD spoiler:
He's even also explicitly given a second shot at Xykon by one of Xykon's associates and he basically says "Nah, I'm a family man now. You should go be one too.

So he gave up on it multiple times as well. Hence why it never really crossed my mind that he was serious about helping Roy any further. His oath lost its importance to him, he never expected Roy to fulfill it in any case, and he plain doesn't like his son either. If Eugene would trouble himself at all, it would be for Julia's sake, but I think it's pretty improbable that Julia's going to be a major part in the downfall of Xykon.

[RunicLGB]

So he gave up on it multiple times as well. Hence why it never really crossed my mind that he was serious about helping Roy any further. His oath lost its importance to him, he never expected Roy to fulfill it in any case, and he plain doesn't like his son either.


Thats all true, But its also true that he really wants in to heaven, and if helping roy makes that easier, what does he have to lose?



If Eugene would trouble himself at all, it would be for Julia's sake, but I think it's pretty improbable that Julia's going to be a major part in the downfall of Xykon.

That would be an 8-bit theatre level anticlimactic subversion though eh?:smallbiggrin:

[FlawedParadigm]

Oh, I could see her making some kind of contribution - scrying some location, using some magic item for Roy, something like that. But somehow I don't see her making a large contribution in direct combat.

Unless it's to die, pissing Roy off enough for him to go all Hulk on Xykon.

[Jay R]

Violet's sister is already out of the area where Eugene can get to, her quest was completed.

You're thinking of Violet herself. I'm implying that Eugene might be looking around for somebody else, referred to as Violet's sister just to remind people that he did in fact do this once already.


That 20 years passed before he died of old age in his 70's to 80's is similarly irrelevant. Eugene is extremely reliable in doing what he sets out to do, and he spent decades trying to fulfill his word.

The fact that the quest he in fact gave up on is the exact same quest I'm suggesting he might give up on is irrelevant?

Ummm.... wow. I have no comment.

[Raineh Daze]

Honestly, it's not like he really has anything better to do. :smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

theres no way he wont do anything he can to help Roy kill Xykon

but what he thinks will help Roy kill Xykon may not be what everyone else wants him to do

[Auldrin]

The fact that the quest he in fact gave up on is the exact same quest I'm suggesting he might give up on is irrelevant?

He gave up after between years and decades, when he had other things going on and it was easy to put it out of his mind. Context is important, and it's now entirely different: He's in a place which is a constant reminder that his only possible hope is for Xykon to be defeated. On top of that, he now knows that the entire world, and even the plane on which he is imprisoned, is at risk. Plus he's only been trying for like, a year? It took him far longer to get bored last time.

Edit: Oh and everyone saying 'but it wouldn't advance the story' ... Well you're wrong. It would advance Eugene's story, by showing that he's sticking to his task and genuinely trying to help. If he made the decision to not tell him right now because it won't help, that's entirely different of course.

[FlawedParadigm]

Honestly, it's not like he really has anything better to do. :smallbiggrin:

That hasn't been enough of an excuse to make him genuinely useful beyond 1) the red goat prophecy, 2) the "being of pure Law and Good" illusion, and 3) being henpecked into teaching Roy how to scry while dead...although I'm sure an actual being of pure Law and Good would have shown up eventually to assist on that one anyhow, so I'm not sure it counts.

Eugene does what helps or pleases Eugene. He might help in a situation if he thought it would genuinely help Roy help Eugene get to the afterlife, but first and foremost he considers his son to be useless against Xykon. If, for example, Eugene learns where Xykon's phylactery is, he might bother telling Roy once Xykon has already been destroyed. That I could see.

About the only way I see Eugene bestirring himself just to keep his word to Roy to tell him Xykon is on the move is if it's something like "You might want to warn your Elf buddy that Xykon is coming. Since, you know, at least the Elf stands a chance of not immediately getting killed."

[137beth]

You're thinking of Violet herself. I'm implying that Eugene might be looking around for somebody else, referred to as Violet's sister just to remind people that he did in fact do this once already.



The fact that the quest he in fact gave up on is the exact same quest I'm suggesting he might give up on is irrelevant?

Ummm.... wow. I have no comment.

No, I'm not. Violet's sister would have gotten into her after life for the same reason as Violet, their blood oath was completed.

[F.Harr]

???

The dude did nothing but try and finish a task for like thirty years, forsaking his family and his comfort in the pursuit of said Task. I don't really like Eugene, but the one thing you CAN count on him for is to stay true to his word.

Actually, as tragically displayed in Start of Darkness, Eugene decided having a family was more important, in his defensive, non-empathetic way.

So, I expect that The Gient will have a great explanation for the issue.

[Sky_Schemer]

Eugene does what helps or pleases Eugene. He might help in a situation if he thought it would genuinely help Roy help Eugene get to the afterlife, but first and foremost he considers his son to be useless against Xykon.

And on top of all that his son was admitted into the Celestial Realm while he was not, which was the ultimate insult.

He's a bitter man that will do anything to spite his son even if it's not in his own best interest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html). I see no reason to take his words in #664 at face value (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html), especially given the last panel.

[Sky_Schemer]

Actually, as tragically displayed in Start of Darkness, Eugene decided having a family was more important, in his defensive, non-empathetic way.

A family which he causally discarded in #500 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html) just to spite Roy.

[Raineh Daze]

I think that's more indicative of Eugene's single-minded focus on whatever has his attention than anything else else.

[Auldrin]

not in his own best interest
As he quite rightly said in that exact strip, Roy had no capacity to influence events, scrying was purely for his own curiosity. Of course as it turned out Roy did learn something useful (I think) but there's no way either of them could see that coming.

He didn't discard his family to spite Roy, Roy demanded it and he didn't care one way or the other. The same thing is being consistently missed throughout this thread: Eugene was obsessive and driven, he just eventually gives up on things. Everybody is acting like he never tries hard at anything ever and has been useless forever and always will be. He isn't. When he was hunting Xykon, he did his absolute best. When he was with his family, he did his absolute best. Now he's back to hunting Xykon, only with the stakes raised massively and the idea of being permanently locked out of his afterlife looming over his shoulder.

[multilis]

The only reason Eugene wouldn't be able to contact Roy is because he is being blocked. As others have shown he would have in past contacted Roy during the day if Roy has his sword.

If #2 power X could have blocked, he would have done it in the first Dungeon. IIFC can't directly affect the world, only using their weak minions. Therefore only one who has the know how and power to block is Snarl.Snarl needs to be close to the party to block like this.

Therefore, Mr. Scruffy must be Snarl and is blocking Eugene. There is no other logical explanation. :smallbiggrin:

[JackRose]

Do we know that Eugene can penetrate the Cloister to scry on Xykon and Redcloak and know that they've left yet?

[Sky_Schemer]

He didn't discard his family to spite Roy, Roy demanded it and he didn't care one way or the other.

I was going to say "six of one, half-dozen of the other", but on reflection I'm going to say, yes, he did casually discard his family. Yes, Roy asked him to make that deal, but he accepted it right away and without hesitation. And, look at his expression, and read his words "That's it? Agreed." That sounds awfully casual to me. He just implied that eternity with his family was not worth as much as winning this argument with Roy. Wow.

That is the kind of man Eugene is. He may not have started this way (though his wife suggests that, yeah, he did) but it's sure how he has been since Roy has been in the picture.


The same thing is being consistently missed throughout this thread: Eugene was obsessive and driven, he just eventually gives up on things. Everybody is acting like he never tries hard at anything ever and has been useless forever and always will be.

I am not implying that at all, those are things you are reading in to the discussion.

I am coming straight out and saying this, though: Eugene is a bitter person now. What kind of person he was 20 years ago is water under the bridge. As this story progresses, Eugene becomes more and more spiteful towards Roy, and take great pleasure in the pot shots and the attempts to interfere in Roy's life. The exchanges in the afterlife took a very ugly turn and I see no evidence in the comic that he is becoming a better person. If anything, he is getting worse.

[Sky_Schemer]

Do we know that Eugene can penetrate the Cloister to scry on Xykon and Redcloak and know that they've left yet?

The cloister effect was never an obstacle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html).

[Auldrin]

Eternity with his family wasn't important because he doesn't care about his family anymore, I'm not disputing that. Saying that spiting Roy had anything to do with it though, I don't think so. He just didn't want to visit his family anyway.

As for his possible progression into uselessness via bitterness, that's a reasonable enough viewpoint, I've no problem with it, even if I don't believe it myself.

There's at least one post in the thread saying the Eugene probably didn't even try to hunt down Xykon in the first place, and a couple of people implying he probably only tried for about a month and then went off to do something else, if you aren't among that camp, great.

[FlawedParadigm]

Basically, Eugene's life (and afterlife) have been one big fat downward spiral.


The point at which we start following his life is when his master is killed over what is ultimately an inconsequential bauble.
He then swears a Blood Oath of Vengeance against his master's slayer.
He spends years unable to find anything about the slayer, except finally his name.
He then goes to try finding Xykon, and ends up on wild goose chases.
He starts a family, although the relationship continually heads downhill because of his obsession with his oath. This is actually probably the second highest point of his life after how deliriously happy he was with his master.
He begins to continually abandon his family in order to fulfill the Oath, and then abandons the Oath, using his family as an excuse, although he still continues to neglect them as well, focusing on his own fame.
He receives a solid tip on Xykon's location from a henchman, but refuses to act upon it, despite the fact that he's not doing any of the better things he has to do.
He dies, leaving a strained relationship with his wife, and even his headstone says he was only a passable father.
He continues to become further embittered, in part because the Oath keeps him out of the LG afterlife.
He continually acts like a selfish git, eventually to the point of maintaining the persona even to his own detriment.
Is reduced to berating his son's every failure, failing to praise any of his victories, and cares nothing for anything except his own misery, even giving up his family for pride.


I'd pity him, if only he hadn't brought 90% of that down on himself.

[skim172]

I feel that of all of the characters in OOTS, Eugene's has been the most inconsistent. At times he seems like downright evil - other times he seems just like a guy who just doesn't get along with his son.

The nature of the oath and Eugene's response to it, for example. In SOD, it's revealed that the Blood Oath was a decision made in a drunken stupor at a local tattoo parlor. He spent decades on it regardless, never even getting close, before he got a wife and kids and decided that it wasn't worth it to give up everything out of pure vindictiveness.

He reaffirms this decision when Right-Eye appears to give him the best lead on Xykon he's ever had. And Eugene turns it down, telling him he doesn't want to leave his family in danger, and that at the end of his life, he won't regret throwing away life and family for petty revenge. This seems to be more or less the theme behind SoD - it's after this talk that Right-Eye realizes it's time to leave, to go find a family and build a positive peace of his own.

But then, when Eugene does die, he's chastised and punished specifically for not pursuing pointless revenge. Ironically, it turns out that giving up everything and putting his family at risk for vengeance was exactly what he was supposed to do. Roy, who admits he began and pursued this quest out of a petty desire to show up his father, is commended, though of course, by the time he died, Roy had shifted gears to a world-saving mentality. Still, it should be noted that Roy's personal nemesis is Xykon - he gave up his life in order to fight Xykon, in what could be considered a rather ill-advised, short-sighted decision. But in reality, Xykon is not the real threat - the real threat is the Snarl and Xykon is just one part of the equation. Perhaps Roy is still committed to this personal quest of revenge.

I'm not trying to argue that "Eugene is just a nice guy" - actually, the opposite. I think the primary characterization of Eugene is that he is a bastard and a terrible person and really, one of the antagonists of the story, though in a different mode from the real baddies. But "Eugene as outright villain" and "Eugene-Roy as family feud" is a fine line when both Roy and Eugene are participants in a cosmic battle for good and evil, and I think the Giant isn't entirely sure which side to fall on that one.

Two questions I would pose, which I think would clear up a lot of things:

Does Roy hate Eugene?
And, does Eugene hate Roy?

Roy obviously loves his mother and brother and grandpa. He has a difficult, but ultimately loving relationship with his sister. But with his dad - I'm not sure the question has ever been definitively addressed.

Is it that they ultimately care for each other, but there are so many issues and ill will that cannot be reconciled?

Or is it that they ultimately do not care for each other, but events, blood, and the plotline simply makes their paths, for now, inextricable?

[dps]

A family which he causally discarded in #500 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html) just to spite Roy.

Eugene might think he has a loophole, though. He promised to never go to Sara's house, but maybe he figures Sara (and Eric) will come to him.

[Forikroder]

Eugene might think he has a loophole, though. He promised to never go to Sara's house, but maybe he figures Sara (and Eric) will come to him.

he just thinks hell go a couple levels up the mountain where family and worldly mortal bonds hold no sway

[F.Harr]

A family which he causally discarded in #500 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html) just to spite Roy.

I DID say defencive. He's also selfish, myopic and doesn't have a great deal of forethought. I expect that when he gets onto the mountain, he'll run into Sarah and Eric. If I remember their names correctly.

[snikrept]

Eugene might be interpreting "haunt me if he leaves Azure City" as meaning "haunt me if he strikes out for the next Gate." Which technically Xykon hasn't done yet.

[skim172]

I DID say defencive. He's also selfish, myopic and doesn't have a great deal of forethought. I expect that when he gets onto the mountain, he'll run into Sarah and Eric. If I remember their names correctly.

In a rationalistic sense, I'm not sure Eugene lost much in that bargain. He had little chance of ever getting his family back anyway. Sara's dislike of Eugene is pretty strong - her ideal time in life is specifically "before I met Eugene." I don't think it'd be much of a leap to assume her ideal eternity is to never see him again. And whatever Eric's feelings may be about it, Sara will not be letting Eugene hang out with the son that she believes he's killed.

Horace is obviously not going to talk to his son any more than necessary.

As for Roy, well, he's the one who made the demand in the first place, which seems to be a pretty definitive statement on where he stands. I asked before whether or not Roy and Eugene hate each other - I would say that, at the very least, Roy wants to hate Eugene, and so his behavior reflects that. (As an aside, I thought Roy's actions there were rather cold-blooded - he demands Eugene discard his family ties in return for a petty favor, and then self-righteously scorns Eugene for doing so. How would he have behaved if Eugene had refused? For me, that moment revealed Roy's incredible capacity for spite. Let's be clear, Eugene doesn't exactly cover himself in glory with his response, by any means, but I thought that was a rather wretched moment for Roy, as well.)

Anyway, my point is, from a rationalist perspective, that agreement likely didn't cost Eugene much, anyway. Sara doesn't want to see him, Eric is out-of-bounds, and, regardless of whether or not Roy ultimately cares for his father, he wants as little to do with Eugene as possible. The only objection that Eugene might have had would've been an emotional, sentimental one - and that doesn't sound like Eugene at all.

The only question, really, is Julia. She and Eugene seem to have a good relationship, so the question is whether or not Roy's pronouncement extends to the entire family.

As I said, I've always felt Eugene's characterization has been inconsistent. At times, it just seems like a typical broken home - full of animosity, but no one's a true villain. At rare moments, like in SoD or when Horace is being a similar jerk to him, Eugene almost seems sympathetic (though not absolved). And at other times, like in strip #500, Eugene seems completely loathsome and depraved.

I assume, since it's the depiction that arises at the most dramatic moments (such as the confrontation in Shojo's throne room), and because Roy is the hero of this story, that the last characterization is likely the intended one. I'm about 90% certain that at the end of all this, Eugene gets dumped out of Heaven anyway as Roy celebrates.

[The_Tentacle]

On a tangential side note though, this would probably be for the best. Since if Eugene was scrying on Xykon and only Xykon, then he would not have known that the phylactery was switched with a very identical decoy since that was done by Redcloak away from the eyesight of Xykon. Thus if Eugene tells the OotS that the Astral-Plane Fortress is where the phylactery is and they venture to take it and try to destroy it... they'll suffer through all the traps, and have the alerted Xykon on their tail only for them to possibly find out later that the thing was a fake and the entire semi-suicidal run was an entirely pointless goose-chase! They would have been better served if they were entirely ignorant of the fortress's existence!

Harry Potter Book 6, anyone?

I'm pretty sure that you can't haunt someone just whenever you want. Remember, there are all sorts of rules about what he can and can't say. I wouldn't be surprised if there were rules on when he can and can't appear to Roy.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You forget, Skim, Julia's True Neutral. Eugene won't see her anyway.

[King of Nowhere]

I'm not sure if anyone remembers this, but eugene affirmed, back in the dungeon of dorukan, that he cannot interfere in the fight with xykon, as per the rules of the blood oath; he only got to do it in azure city because he could bypass those rules by hyjacking the evocation.
So, it means eugene cannot tello roy that xykon killed the resistance, or that he hid the phylactery in the plane of air. he can't even tell roy that xykon left; he has to do so indirectly, by manifesting. So, xykon hasn't left the city yet, eugene hasn't manifested yet.
As much as eugene is a jerkass, manifesting to roy is in his best interest. he won't see his family in the afterlife, but he'll get free sex and booze, so it's a huge improvement.

[davidbofinger]

The more I think about it the more impressed I am by that conversation in Start of Darkness where

Right-Eye offers Eugene a shot at Xykon. Right-Eye is furiously critical of Eugene for putting his family ahead of fulfilling his oath. But that's pretty much exactly what Right-Eye did, preferring to raise a family instead of doing his bit for the plan. And the unintended irony of Eugene telling Right-Eye to give up vengeance and raise a family is heartbreaking.

The whole oath-versus-family thing is a case of idealism-versus-pragmatism or ends-versus-means, a theme of which Order of the Stick is fond. The other famous cases are the order's trial in Azure City, leading to Miko's confrontation with Shojo, and Belkar's membership of the order (have I missed any?). The Eugene case is more interesting than the Shojo one - the reader can't help sympathising with Shojo over Miko (although Shojo's subsequent refusal to be resurrected is inexcusable, given he was so badly needed). But Eugene's decision is far more understandable. It leads to the idealists of the Celestial Realm refusing him admittance, which is probably related to his turning bitter and nasty.

Anyway, the amount Rich Burlew can pack into one of these conversations is stunning. If you'd shown me the first few cartoons, even the first hundred cartoons, and told me I was in for something this dense and layered I wouldn't have believed you.

I think he must have earned the points to max out his understanding of narrative structure by taking the disadvantage "Vulnerability to Glass".

[Rogar Demonblud]

which is probably related to his turning bitter and nasty

"He was always a bitter old man. It's just that he was hiding in a young man's body for most of his life."

[Olinser]

The more I think about it the more impressed I am by that conversation in Start of Darkness where

Right-Eye offers Eugene a shot at Xykon. Right-Eye is furiously critical of Eugene for putting his family ahead of fulfilling his oath. But that's pretty much exactly what Right-Eye did, preferring to raise a family instead of doing his bit for the plan. And the unintended irony of Eugene telling Right-Eye to give up vengeance and raise a family is heartbreaking.

The whole oath-versus-family thing is a case of idealism-versus-pragmatism or ends-versus-means, a theme of which Order of the Stick is fond. The other famous cases are the order's trial in Azure City, leading to Miko's confrontation with Shojo, and Belkar's membership of the order (have I missed any?). The Eugene case is more interesting than the Shojo one - the reader can't help sympathising with Shojo over Miko (although Shojo's subsequent refusal to be resurrected is inexcusable, given he was so badly needed). But Eugene's decision is far more understandable. It leads to the idealists of the Celestial Realm refusing him admittance, which is probably related to his turning bitter and nasty.

Anyway, the amount Rich Burlew can pack into one of these conversations is stunning. If you'd shown me the first few cartoons, even the first hundred cartoons, and told me I was in for something this dense and layered I wouldn't have believed you.

I think he must have earned the points to max out his understanding of narrative structure by taking the disadvantage "Vulnerability to Glass".

How is Shojo's refusal to be resurrected inexcusable? If anything, he did Azure City a FAVOR.

If Shojo had allowed himself to be resurrected, then on the eve of a major attack, there would have been rampant infighting among the nobles. Rather than simply being dead, he would be alive, under arrest, and in disgrace. Kubota and the rest of the scheming nobles would have had very good cause to simply remove Hinjo from the leadership 'until they could tell whether he was a traitor too.'

Rather than having the nobles simply leave, they might very well have stayed and ended up fighting each other.

Instead of one defense, you would have had several unconnected forces under the command of whatever noble happened to convince them HE was the one that should be in charge.

Shojo certainly wouldn't have positively affected the defense in any way. From a fighting point - he's a 14th level aristocrat - totally useless on the battle front.

[LadyEowyn]

You forget, Skim, Julia's True Neutral. Eugene won't see her anyway.

Hmm, that brings up a good point. Maybe Eugene gets bumped to the True Neutral afterlife after Xykon's destruction due to his actions after death, but he has the consolation that Julia will eventually go there as well, and she's the one of his family that he likes best anyway.

On another matter - Eugene is not, in fact, being punished for "refusing to waste his life on pointless revenge". He's facing the results of oathbreaking. If you don't want to devote the rest of your life to a specific action, then you don't make an oath that requires you to do so.

A Lawful Good person (or any person) who hasn't made such an oath is in no way obligated or required to devote the rest of their life to vengeance.

[Raineh Daze]

Well, he's being punished for not putting honour before reason, so...

[Olinser]

Hmm, that brings up a good point. Maybe Eugene gets bumped to the True Neutral afterlife after Xykon's destruction due to his actions after death, but he has the consolation that Julia will eventually go there as well, and she's the one of his family that he likes best anyway.

On another matter - Eugene is not, in fact, being punished for "refusing to waste his life on pointless revenge". He's facing the results of oathbreaking. If you don't want to devote the rest of your life to a specific action, then you don't make an oath that requires you to do so.

A Lawful Good person (or any person) who hasn't made such an oath is in no way obligated or required to devote the rest of their life to vengeance.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html

Roy's Archon seemed to think that's not a realistic possibility anymore.

[skim172]

On another matter - Eugene is not, in fact, being punished for "refusing to waste his life on pointless revenge". He's facing the results of oathbreaking. If you don't want to devote the rest of your life to a specific action, then you don't make an oath that requires you to do so.

A Lawful Good person (or any person) who hasn't made such an oath is in no way obligated or required to devote the rest of their life to vengeance.

So I guess it's an alignment matter in the end. Understood.

Purely on a speculative note, though: on a certain level, isn't that splitting hairs? His oath was to not rest until Xykon is dead - breaking his oath and not spending his life on revenge are the same thing. It's like saying my wife is divorcing me for breaching the terms of our marriage contract, and not for cheating on her and raising a secret family of seven kids in a mountain village in Austria.

My question is, should an oath made without serious intent be held with similar weight as one made with clearness of mind and forethought? Eugene was drunk, depressed, and had the oath carved into him by some dude with a knife in a grimy tattoo parlor. Extending the marriage metaphor, above - sure, I've got a secret family of singing Austrian goatherds, but on the other hand, I married my wife in Vegas with a BAC of .50, at a drive-thru chapel, and it came free with my large fries. In terms of commitment, I didn't honestly invest much in that initial marriage.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that oaths and vows are not mere legalistic constructs - they're real commitments, measured in personal investment. Whether it's time, money, love, mind, ego, deliberation, sacrifice, a commitment costs me something. And whatever I'm willing to give is how much it truly matters. If all it cost me was a signature on a dotted line, then it's only binding in a legal sense, and not in any way that will compel me to not fall in love with that musical European hussy.

But this marriage example differs from Eugene's oath in two important qualities. One, my breaking of the vow, no matter how little I put into it, will cause real harm, since my oath was made to another person, who's invested her own commitment into the exchange. It's not just a legal institution - it's an agreement between humans with actual human costs.

Two, my commitment took place in a world where magic doesn't directly intervene in life (not visibly, anyway), and divine punishment for oathbreaking will not be administered directly and obviously. I will (most likely) not be smote from the earth for running off with my singing Teutonic nanny. And thus, it is up to the legal system to punish me and recompense the wife instead - which is why the lawyers will squeeze me dry of every euro I gained from my secret lederhosen export business in Salzburg.

Eugene, on the other hand, did not make his vow to anyone but the cosmos. And he does live in a universe where the cosmos can and will respond. Which makes me think that even for a Lawful god, it is a bit unreasonable to stick to a rigid, legalistic distinction of "oath vs non-oath."

While the fry cook who ordained my Las Vegas marriage may have no ability to know how committed I am to my vows, the gods should have a better ability to gauge the emotional investment that Eugene made in his youthful, drunken haze. And I wouldn't think they'd take a vow he didn't even remember the next morning as seriously as if he'd walked into a temple of Thor, asked for guidance and deliberation, then made a sacrifice to the gods as he swore his oath under counseling of the high priest.

In other words, it's not about "this counts as an oath" and "this doesn't count as an oath" - it's a matter of how much commitment you place into this promise, whether it's on paper, in blood, or just in your head. So even if Eugene never had the oath carved into his back, if he had internally promised to himself that he'd never, ever rest before Xykon was dead, then it would not be Lawful for him to give that up, even if he never filed the pledge with the proper authorities.

So I guess, Lawful and Chaotic in this model is determined by how easily one takes on and gives up personal investment.

But eh - all rambling speculation, forgive me - the alignment system would always cause a big thing when I played with my friends. The guy who played a paladin loathed me.


TL:DR = Eugene should quit drinking.

[Raineh Daze]

Also, Xykon is dead, isn't he? What was the exact wording? :smallconfused:

[B. Dandelion]

Also, Xykon is dead, isn't he? What was the exact wording? :smallconfused:

"Horrible vengeance," not death.


I, Eugene Greenhilt, swear on the blood that flows from my wounds this day that I shall not rest, in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted horrible vengeance on those that have slighted me, named here as Xykon the sorcerer.

[Raineh Daze]

So he's being kept out of the afterlife on the grounds of not fulfilling a vaguely worded oath ever ('horrible vengeance'? Seriously?) that can be rendered impossible to fulfil if someone beats his descendants to the punch.

No wonder he seems to get more bitter with every appearance.

[B. Dandelion]

So he's being kept out of the afterlife on the grounds of not fulfilling a vaguely worded oath ever ('horrible vengeance'? Seriously?) that can be rendered impossible to fulfil if someone beats his descendants to the punch.

No wonder he seems to get more bitter with every appearance.

Well, he's being kept out of the Lawful Good afterlife specifically. Maybe the NG or CG people would have been more lenient on him giving up the oath. But if you don't want to keep to your word when it becomes inconvenient, why be Lawful in the first place?

Personally I think he might have had more of a case even with the LG people if he hadn't tried to get out of the oath on account of having children, only to later try and foist the oath off on them as well. That sorta damages his credibility.

Granted, it would suck royally if someone else (besides Roy or Julia) stole the final kill against Xykon and the Devas thought that would be grounds to keep Eugene stranded in limbo forever. It's never come up as a possibility so I'm not sure how they would handle that. Though I'm tempted to say it would serve him right, really.

[JSSheridan]

Maybe he's found another Oath spirit to get ethereal with.

[Olinser]

Well, he's being kept out of the Lawful Good afterlife specifically. Maybe the NG or CG people would have been more lenient on him giving up the oath. But if you don't want to keep to your word when it becomes inconvenient, why be Lawful in the first place?

Personally I think he might have had more of a case even with the LG people if he hadn't tried to get out of the oath on account of having children, only to later try and foist the oath off on them as well. That sorta damages his credibility.

Granted, it would suck royally if someone else (besides Roy or Julia) stole the final kill against Xykon and the Devas thought that would be grounds to keep Eugene stranded in limbo forever. It's never come up as a possibility so I'm not sure how they would handle that. Though I'm tempted to say it would serve him right, really.

That's exactly why Roy was allowed into the afterlife, and Eugene wasn't. Roy tried to the best of his ability to fulfill the oath, whereas Eugene gave up on the oath for 20 years, and even when given a great chance to finish it off (Right-Eye's info), he chose to just give up. Even at the end of his life, he made no attempt to fulfill the oath - he just dumped it on Roy.

[Raineh Daze]

Why they keep him there and don't just palm him off to a more Chaotic afterlife is beyond me. There's clearly a judgement procedure, so why not? If it's a matter of Law vs Chaos and not Good vs Evil, you're still keeping someone who (since Good alignment) has earned some sort of reward kept hanging around for years because of a matter of methodology.

[Jay R]

Why they keep him there and don't just palm him off to a more Chaotic afterlife is beyond me. There's clearly a judgement procedure, so why not? If it's a matter of Law vs Chaos and not Good vs Evil, you're still keeping someone who (since Good alignment) has earned some sort of reward kept hanging around for years because of a matter of methodology.

Because he swore a Blood Oath of Vengeance.

(Start of Darkness spoilers)I, Eugene Greenhilt, swear on the blood that --- AAAAH! What the h*ll?? - swear on the blood that - AAAH! - flows from my wounds that I shall not rest, in - AAAH! - in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted - GUH! G*dd*mn it! - enacted horrible vengeance on those that have slighted me, named here as Xykon the -gnnh! -sorceror.

He did, in fact, rest, before that vengeance could be enacted. Roy didn't. Therefore, [Roy] has earned his rest on the mountain, while [Eugene] must wander this cloud until one of [his] heirs fulfills the quest. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) Because that's exactly what he swore: "shall not rest, in - AAAH! - in this life or any other".

[theNater]

Why they keep him there and don't just palm him off to a more Chaotic afterlife is beyond me. There's clearly a judgement procedure, so why not? If it's a matter of Law vs Chaos and not Good vs Evil, you're still keeping someone who (since Good alignment) has earned some sort of reward kept hanging around for years because of a matter of methodology.
It's important to remember that a Blood Oath isn't just an oath plus some stabbing. Eugene brought some magic to the party, in order to make the oath binding to himself and his descendants. The force keeping Eugene there isn't the deva, or the forces of Law & Good; it's Eugene's own magic.

[Raineh Daze]

SoD spoiler:

Did Eugene ever rest in a place called AAAAH? He could try getting off on a technicality. :smallbiggrin:

[ReaderAt2046]

It's important to remember that a Blood Oath isn't just an oath plus some stabbing. Eugene brought some magic to the party, in order to make the oath binding to himself and his descendants. The force keeping Eugene there isn't the deva, or the forces of Law & Good; it's Eugene's own magic.

I seem to recall that in one series I read, even the gods themselves couldn't free someone from a blood vow. Maybe the magic Eugene invoked is so strong that the devas can't countermand it.

[B. Dandelion]

That's exactly why Roy was allowed into the afterlife, and Eugene wasn't. Roy tried to the best of his ability to fulfill the oath, whereas Eugene gave up on the oath for 20 years, and even when given a great chance to finish it off (Right-Eye's info), he chose to just give up. Even at the end of his life, he made no attempt to fulfill the oath - he just dumped it on Roy.

Right, the only thing I'm not 100% on is the implication that if Eugene had tried harder, he absolutely would have been granted some leniency. Though I am leaning towards that interpretation. There's quite a bit to suggest this might be the case, from the Devas giving it to Roy (meaning obviously they do grant exemptions), to the "we don't penalize people for ineffectiveness," and the Giant's apparent desire to make thoughtful introspection and flexibility an integral part of the Lawful Good alignment -- such as with Celia's closing arguments, the "you're trying" remarks, and he suggests in War and XPs that Shojo might have been able to get the Sapphire Guard to bend on their oath towards the other Gates if he had made his case to them directly, but chose to go behind their backs and thus paid the price (although it's not like he confirms it definitely would have worked either). So if Eugene had been either consistent about his oath or consistent about his conscientious objection for the sake of his kids, maybe they would have let him in with it outstanding. But since he abandoned it "for Roy's sake" only to later make it Roy's problem directly, they threw the book at him, which would make his exile an intentional punishment rather than a legalistic limbo. I'm not sure kicking him off to another afterlife rather than force him to wait would be the kinder thing to do, either. Roy sure didn't look happy when the Deva suggested she might send his case off to the Neutral Good afterlife, which is probably a pretty nice place to be in and of itself.

It's just that if this is the case, they're not real clear on the side of "we might have let you in even with the oath outstanding, if you hadn't been such a jerkass" part of that equation. It's really easy to just read them as making an exception for Roy, since he did nothing wrong, without emphasizing that Eugene messed up really badly to wind up in the spot he's in now. He did make the oath while dead drunk and all, so holding him to it can seem rather cruelly arbitrary if it's not established that leniency would have been the ordinary state of affairs (but for Eugene's massive hypocrisy) rather than an extraordinary grant given to Roy specifically (for being super-awesome).

[Jay R]

He did make the oath while dead drunk and all, so holding him to it can seem rather cruelly arbitrary if it's not established that leniency would have been the ordinary state of affairs (but for Eugene's massive hypocrisy) rather than an extraordinary grant given to Roy specifically (for being super-awesome).

There are two things I think you're overlooking.

1. It's magically sealed. Spells cast on a drunk man are just as effective as when they are cast on a sober one.

2. He swore the oath. Roy didn't. The oath is binding on Roy, but not to the same extent, since the words are (in relevant part) "I shall not rest ... until I or my heirs have enacted horrible vengeance..." (emphasis added).

[Der_DWSage]

This...actually raises some interesting questions to me. We've either uncovered a minor plot hole or some deeper intrigue with Eugene and the angels. (Which would not surprise me, as much as Rich loves taking us down unexpected paths.)

Why do I say this? Because vengeance already happened. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) It was vengeance (You broke his sword!) and it was horrible (If it makes a LICH cry out in pain, even momentarily...) and the celestial forces have proven they give marks for trying. Or at least a celestial force proved she gave marks for trying.

Perhaps the reason Eugene isn't showing up in the comic is because he finally got a rare Lawful Good lawyer to plead his case for him.

[Auldrin]

We've either uncovered a minor plot hole or some deeper intrigue with Eugene and the angels.

Or neither, in the event that despite just saying vengeance, death is required. I'm cool with the idea and if it became reality I wouldn't get upset over it, but I don't think it's likely.

[Der_DWSage]

I dunno. Xykon died-twice. Once in his mortal body after Eugene made the oath, once when he got thrown into the gate.

Could they still be keeping him out of heaven until the job is completely done, not because Roy won't do it without pestering (He's proven he's changed his reasoning to doing it because it needs to be done.) but because Eugene is a jerk? Completely possible.

Personally, I'm holding out for deeper intrigue. One of those 'Why didn't you let me in BEFORE?' deals, followed by, 'Would you have rested peacefully if you knew he hadn't completed the job?'

[Forikroder]

I dunno. Xykon died-twice. Once in his mortal body after Eugene made the oath, once when he got thrown into the gate.

Could they still be keeping him out of heaven until the job is completely done, not because Roy won't do it without pestering (He's proven he's changed his reasoning to doing it because it needs to be done.) but because Eugene is a jerk? Completely possible.

Personally, I'm holding out for deeper intrigue. One of those 'Why didn't you let me in BEFORE?' deals, followed by, 'Would you have rested peacefully if you knew he hadn't completed the job?'

his body got destroyed once, his soul has never died

[Raineh Daze]

his body got destroyed once, his soul has never died

They never really do that, you know.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Eugene isn't getting on the Mountain until he gets his completion certificate. And he lied about that to his Heavenly Resources deva.

I think they're going to be very strict with him, because he's annoying.

[F.Harr]

In a rationalistic sense, I'm not sure Eugene lost much in that bargain.

Eugene, I think, is very smart, vary arrogant, very myopic and rather impulsive. Rationalisation is a survival skill for him.

And yes, I fully expect that when, not if, he sees Sara again, he will get an earful from her. I rather suspect that Eric will run to meet him, because small children do tend to love their parents.

[B. Dandelion]

There are two things I think you're overlooking.

1. It's magically sealed. Spells cast on a drunk man are just as effective as when they are cast on a sober one.

How's this not arbitrary? I think the Devas come out looking all right if they had the power to grant Eugene leniency but chose not to mostly because of his misdeeds. This is in contrast to the scenario where he's held to the oath no matter what the circumstances, because they're going to be utter sticklers about rash decisions made by otherwise good people make while in the throes of grief and intoxicated out of their minds.

If the devas had no power to influence the situation at all because of magical sealant, Eugene isn't being bound by the arbitration of beings of law and good, but by some kind of over-law they apparently can't do anything about even if they wanted to. Or magical physics, if you prefer. In that scenario, if it turns out he gets what he deserves, that's more coincidence than justice.

Which, sure, is possible, although I haven't really seen anything that convinces me it's the case. It makes for a much darker picture of the entire afterlife if you carry the idea to its logical conclusions. Coincidence wouldn't always side against the guilty.


2. He swore the oath. Roy didn't. The oath is binding on Roy, but not to the same extent, since the words are (in relevant part) "I shall not rest ... until I or my heirs have enacted horrible vengeance..." (emphasis added).

Again, it's the scenario where the devas have no influence on the process and Roy is treated differently than Eugene because of the wording of the oath rather than by justice interpreted by beings of pure law and good.

[JavaScribe]

They never really do that, you know.
Actually, it's rare, but there are a few epic level threats capable of destroying souls. In fact, one exists/existed in this particular universe; The Snarl.

[jogiff]

The thing you have to keep in mind is that Xykon still hasn't left Azure City because Azure City no longer exists. It is now the Democratic Republic of Gobbotopia City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html).

[King of Nowhere]

Well, for the moment I'm putting my money on either "the wards on the canyon prevented Eugene from manifesting to roy" or "Xykon left azure city less than 24 hours ago, and roy had not gone to sleep in the meanwhile".

[Olinser]

Well, for the moment I'm putting my money on either "the wards on the canyon prevented Eugene from manifesting to roy" or "Xykon left azure city less than 24 hours ago, and roy had not gone to sleep in the meanwhile".

Honestly, given his recent EXTREMELY questionable actions, I would not put it past Eugene to have found some way to manifest to Tarquin to try and give him information to take down Xykon.

The more we see of him, the more I think that Eugene is just in this for Eugene. As long as his Blood Oath gets fulfilled, why should he care that he gave somebody just as bad a shot at the Gate?

[Jay R]

How's this not arbitrary? I think the Devas come out looking all right if they had the power to grant Eugene leniency but chose not to mostly because of his misdeeds. This is in contrast to the scenario where he's held to the oath no matter what the circumstances, because they're going to be utter sticklers about rash decisions made by otherwise good people make while in the throes of grief and intoxicated out of their minds.

You seem to be saying that it's arbitrary if his final judgment is based on his own actions, but it's not arbitrary if the angels can decide it on a whim.

You have not yet convinced me.

[theNater]

If the devas had no power to influence the situation at all because of magical sealant, Eugene isn't being bound by the arbitration of beings of law and good, but by some kind of over-law they apparently can't do anything about even if they wanted to. Or magical physics, if you prefer. In that scenario, if it turns out he gets what he deserves, that's more coincidence than justice.

Which, sure, is possible, although I haven't really seen anything that convinces me it's the case. It makes for a much darker picture of the entire afterlife if you carry the idea to its logical conclusions. Coincidence wouldn't always side against the guilty.
Pretty sure this is the case. The D&D afterlife system defaults to justice, but there are some things that break it. For example, it is occasionally hinted that necromancy is inherently evil because it traps the soul of the used corpse in some way, preventing it from going to its just reward.

[B. Dandelion]

You seem to be saying that it's arbitrary if his final judgment is based on his own actions, but it's not arbitrary if the angels can decide it on a whim.

You have not yet convinced me.

I wouldn't characterize the devas's judgments as "on a whim". They're beings of law and good, and trying to live up to that standard, and to hold other people to that standard within reasonable boundaries.

Anyway what I'm saying here is I find it more "just" if Eugene is being judged and punished for more than the mere Oath itself but the actions he's taken to not fulfill it, which are hypocritical and surely warrant his current in-limbo status. Being held to the Oath and only the Oath no matter what the circumstances might seem fitting to you, but I like to think he's brought it on his own head with more than just that, because yeah, that was kind of a stupid rash decision he made while drunk. If the devas literally can't waive that because it's a magical seal, then it's beyond the scope of law and good, so there isn't justice based on law and good in the afterlife (meaning we can't truly say for sure that his judgment IS just), and if they would choose not to waive that (again, based ONLY on the Oath), then I have some doubts about their judgment as well.

[DarkDain]

Maybe he lost the privilege of scrying ? He was on thin ice after the court rigging stunt, what if they found out he torched the records on V and simply locked him up for a bit ? Do we see him after that scene ?

[theNater]

If the devas literally can't waive that because it's a magical seal, then it's beyond the scope of law and good, so there isn't justice based on law and good in the afterlife (meaning we can't truly say for sure that his judgment IS just)...
The forces of law and good are neither all-powerful nor infallible. Sometimes things in their purview are outside of their ability. They bring what justice they can, and it's quite a lot(the vast majority of people get what's coming to them in the afterlife), but it's not absolute. Eugene is one of those outside cases, due to his own actions. Had Roy given up the hunt for Xykon, he would also be such a case, despite not being the one who had sworn the oath.

[B. Dandelion]

The forces of law and good are neither all-powerful nor infallible. Sometimes things in their purview are outside of their ability.

I don't think it has been conclusively established they could not have done anything for Eugene's case if they had waned to. Yeah, the Oath put his case on the backburner immediately in the back of SOD, but in the strip itself Roy's deva brought up Eugene's behavior afterwards and then said what was happening to Eugene was fair. This suggested to me they were taking some credit for that, while if in the case that he was screwed even if they'd wanted to take pity on him, any justice that would happen would just be coincidental. It's not so much "fair" as "fitting".

Granted, if you find it completely and utterly fair that anybody who makes an Oath and doesn't fulfill it is kept out of the afterlife (or at least the Lawful Good afterlife) no matter what the extenuating circumstances are, this does not present any sort of logistical problem. However, I have to admit I don't find this as compelling as "they might have been able to grant leniency based on individual circumstances, but chose not in this case because Eugene is a giant ass". Is that so wrong? I will change this assumption if the devas say conclusively they couldn't have helped him regardless.

[Living Oxymoron]

Funny... I thought that when he burned the files about Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html), he was like "I'm not helping Roy anymore". He first said he was going to tell Roy immediately if Xykon left Azure City. After that, he told the Deva that he was as appalled to these events as she was. And then he praises Vaarsuvius' attempt to defeat Xykon and burns the files? It's like everything he commited to do in that comic was pure sarcasm.

[veti]

However, I have to admit I don't find this as compelling as "they might have been able to grant leniency based on individual circumstances, but chose not in this case because Eugene is a giant ass". Is that so wrong? I will change this assumption if the devas say conclusively they couldn't have helped him regardless.

I have some conceptual difficulty around the word "chose", as applied to "beings of pure law and good". "Choosing" implies freedom, but if your very essence is of "pure law and good", what freedom do you have? That's like saying that gravity "chose" to kill Roy.

Not so much that the devas couldn't have helped Eugene, as that they couldn't have wanted to.

[B. Dandelion]

Eh, I've said my piece: I set out to say that I agree you could argue, as people were originally, that it is a little ridiculous to keep people suspended in purgatory indefinitely based on making an Oath they couldn't fulfill even if there were extenuating circumstances (like being dead drunk when you made it), HOWEVER even granting this we could argue Eugene might have been granted leniency as Roy was, but forfeited this opportunity because of his other actions. Therefore being kept out of heaven is indeed lawful and good and entirely deserved.

If you didn't agree with the original point (because you think it's entirely fair to keep everyone out of heaven for oathbreaking, or because you think it doesn't matter if it's fair, etc.), you won't see a need to argue they had it in their power to behave differently, which is fine. I can't prove the devas were capable of it or anything, I just don't think it can be disproven at this juncture and we're getting into an area that's both speculative and rather off-topic from the original thread:

What's been keeping Eugene from updating Roy on the Xykon situation?

You know, originally, I had been thinking the story might have just been holding off on Eugene not because of him exactly, but because there's more story invested in the same message that's due to come from Hinjo. Eugene just had to appear to his son and tell him the news -- on the other hand Thanh had to die, Niu had to escape as the Resistance came apart, and Hinjo had to flee from an encounter in order to get into position to relay the word back to the Order. You kind of want to see that message manage to accomplish something as it might give a bit of closure to Thanh's death. However with Xykon apparently on the scene already, I'm not sure this holds up at all -- though it makes me wonder if Hinjo's message might accomplish something by going to Vaarsuvius or Durkon instead of Roy or something, since that would at least inform someone who didn't know Xykon had arrived... if indeed he has. If Xykon is there for real, Eugene has officially fallen down on the job now.