When problem players force the DM's hand (player seeing red writing this, be warned)

[scurv]

<rant>

So for my brother in laws campaign, I draw up two of my own chars, I help our three problem children draw up their two chars. We spend 2 hours before they get there making Stromboli (Making food is our pre game ritual) We sit down for all of an hour and one <edit>highly counter productive player<edit> decides that on our stealth mission he is not only going to get himself killed, He is going to blow his horn and alert the camp, Thus getting our pointy eared group TPKed!

But I can handle this so far

But before i pack up my dice, folder and lappy...I am listening to one of our problem children who seems to have this concept that the DM is suppose to make sure the players win no matter how stupid they are. Because the dm is obligated to make sure they have fun. Now understand I am of the world view that there is normally merit to both sides of a disagreement. But this is just brain hurt for me to wrap my head around!

</rant>

<edit> I am begining to think my age is showing, when i was his age one screw up like that irl would get real people killed...but hay

[AuraTwilight]

Are these literal children, or are you just calling the problem player 'children'?

But in any case, can you not be calling people not here to present their side of things 'dill weed idiots'? It makes it hard not to think that you're not being the unreasonable one here misrepresenting what he actually said and did.

[scurv]

Apologies...i'll remember that next time i rant at someone wasting almost 20 hours of effort on my part this week

But well I am not sure honestly what the problems players age is. It is somewhere between 19 and 23 As for whether that classifies as a child or not sure at this point.
But thank you for your constructive feedback, I think I am going to assume the problem is me for expecting respect, maturity and cooperation from people I am engaged in activities with. Or maybe behavior that is something other then highly counter-productive to the task at hand that the only thing in my wold view that can explain it is ether a malfunction in said players cognitive abilities or some form of personalty disorder.

But yes, blatant name calling is uncalled for and i will scrub that.

[Seatbelt]

Maybe your players are interested in a smash face campaign and not a sneak around campaign, but lack the social skills to tell you they arent having fun?

In a similar vein there is one player who is a "Character of the month" kind of guy who rolls up a different dude every month or so. He likes to powergame, which is fine so do I. But he's not good at it so he ends up doing a lot of accidental cheating 'cuz he cant remember what his build does. He also always roleplays the same character regardless of what he's actually using and that character is frustrating. He quietly ragequit a session one night when his 12 year old girl monk couldn't throw the corpse of a fallen enemy at a foe some 50 feet away. No tantrum or anything. The DM just said "no" and moved on to the next PC. So about 10 minutes later he excused himself and left.

The other guy is perfectly fine but he occasionally delves in to the "I'm 15 years old and I want to hump this NPC for lulz" realm. Which is not completely ridiculous given he's only like 22. But it gets tiresome.

[AuraTwilight]

Apologies...i'll remember that next time i rant at someone wasting almost 20 hours of effort on my part this week

But well I am not sure honestly what the problems players age is. It is somewhere between 19 and 23 As for whether that classifies as a child or not sure at this point.
But thank you for your constructive feedback, I think I am going to assume the problem is me for expecting respect, maturity and cooperation from people I am engaged in activities with. Or maybe behavior that is something other then highly counter-productive to the task at hand that the only thing in my wold view that can explain it is ether a malfunction in said players cognitive abilities or some form of personalty disorder.

But yes, blatant name calling is uncalled for and i will scrub that.

Uh, you didn't need to be all passive-aggressive and insulting at me, bro. All that tells me is that whenever people respond to behavior of yours you don't like, you talk down to them. It makes me want to side with your players. If you feel that your players are 'wasting your time' or are behaving inappropriately, you can talk to them like an adult instead of being nasty to me or complaining to the internet that your players are literally mentally handicapped?

[Water_Bear]

I'm a big fan of making expectations clear before a game starts. My first session with a new group usually begins with some variant of;

"Here's a cliff notes on the setting, this is the sort of game I'm thinking of, this is how characters are to be built. The dice fall where they will; if your PC (or any NPC) dies, so be it. If I catch you cheating or being creepy, I'm going to ask you to leave."

Some people still don't get it until their character gets killed by a mook's lucky hit or I "let them leave early" when they start screwing with their die results, but then at least they knew the rules.

You can't expect people to have the same idea on what's acceptable play as you do, so at the very least you need to be clear about the game you're running.

[Feddlefew]

The other guy is perfectly fine but he occasionally delves in to the "I'm 15 years old and I want to hump this NPC for lulz" realm. Which is not completely ridiculous given he's only like 22. But it gets tiresome.

Only 22? :smallconfused:

I mean, everyone's had that "lol I bet I could lay that dragon if you know what I mean" moment, but....

[dps]

Was this split out of another thread or something? 'Cause it seems like it starts in the middle of a conversation.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Apologies...i'll remember that next time i rant at someone wasting almost 20 hours of effort on my part this week

But well I am not sure honestly what the problems players age is. It is somewhere between 19 and 23 As for whether that classifies as a child or not sure at this point.
But thank you for your constructive feedback, I think I am going to assume the problem is me for expecting respect, maturity and cooperation from people I am engaged in activities with. Or maybe behavior that is something other then highly counter-productive to the task at hand that the only thing in my wold view that can explain it is ether a malfunction in said players cognitive abilities or some form of personalty disorder.

But yes, blatant name calling is uncalled for and i will scrub that.

I have to ask, and I do this in the most honest, well-meaning way I can, which won't come over well in text but anyway. Do you bring this passive-aggressive attitude to the table? Because right now you are acting like the immature "child".

"Somewhere between 19 and 23" does not classify as a child. That is an adult, and insinuating otherwise is not cool.

Do you enjoy what you do? The preparations for the game and what you get out of the game? If you do, then how is it a waste?

Did you talk to your players about what kind of game you were expecting and made sure everyone was on the same page? Did everyone agree?

Did you give the player some sort of warning that this was a bad idea? Did he still decide to do it? Is such things a common behavior?

Is it possible that the player is intentionally trying to get his character killed because he doesn't like it for some reason?

[Jay R]

I feel your pain, and sympathize.

The next step is to recognize the problem and plan for it.

If the DM had written, I would have advised him to make clear that deadly situations can be deadly. I was once running a Champions campaign, in which I wanted the heroes to act like super-heroes. So their packet included the following:
Because I wish characters to take the kinds of risks that comic book characters actually take, I guarantee that your character will not die. Bad things may happen, but they will not be permanent.

[Note: you are not immortal, and I cannot save you from your own stupidity. If you choose to dive into a volcano or a vat of acid, I can’t save you. But the normal run of comic book adventures is not going to do you in. Spider-Man does not, in fact, get shot to death in the comics. Take risks to save people. Really. That’s what heroes do.]

That made the situation as clear as I could. (I always start a new campaign with a written description, that includes all house rules, and answers as many of the standard questions as I can think of.)

But a player asked. So here's my advice: you now know that you have characters who won't sneak around for a long period of time. That's either fatal (if you don't plan for it), or merely an important fact to deal with (if you do).

All stealth plans with this group should be brief and clearly aimed at getting them to an exciting fight. Make a clear statement that "if we do this right, we'll get a really great melee out of it." The goal is to have them believe the fighting will be more exciting if they sneak, and to reduce the sneaking time to the minimum possible. This requires looking at the tactical situation and coming up with a plan in which the sneaking doesn't take long, and ends in a melee.

That's not always the best plan, but a good plan that the characters actually execute is better than a great plan that they blow up.

Use all the tactical information, including the desires of the players, to make your plan.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Reading between the lines of frustration, it sounds like there's a disconnect between expectations here. You, scurv, want a more gritty, "we fail, we die" sort of game. It sounds like this other player(s?) want a more cinematic, "heroes triumph over all adversity" game. You expect a totally botched plan to result in a TPK; he expects the DM to still provide a way out for a clever player. Next time, talk to the group before things get started and emotions start running and get everyone on the same page of how things are going to go.

[valadil]

I've heard of players like that. I've GMed someone who had ideas along those lines but didn't go quite so far. All I can say is I'm sorry you had to deal with that.

In gaming there are a lot of things that are preference. Dice fudging, what happens when characters die, etc. I like to think I can see all those points of view and find a way to enjoy playing with just about anyone. Except these people - players who think the GM is obliged to make everything in the game winnable.

[Oracle_Hunter]

As a rule, when you start referring to your Players by insults, you should stop DMing for them.

Anyhoo, here's a simple rule to avoid these sorts of situations in the future: make sure everyone's on the same page.
Before you start up a game, it is good to have an idea as to what sort of games your Players want to play. If you do not know, you should ask.

This prevents you from wasting time on a game that your Players don't like, and can keep immature Players from "flipping the table" and ruining everyone's fun.

Additionally, it can help weed out Players that you do not want to DM for. If you don't want to run a game in which it is your duty to make sure the PCs "win" then it is best to not run games for Players who want that.
In short, it sucks this happened to you but hopefully it will prove to be a valuable lesson for the future.

[Kornaki]

<edit> I am begining to think my age is showing, when i was his age one screw up like that irl would get real people killed...but hay

Is it really possible to take people seriously when they compare dying in Dnd to dying in real life?

[TuggyNE]

Is it really possible to take people seriously when they compare dying in Dnd to dying in real life?

Fixed that for you, and the answer is no.

:smalltongue:

[Trekkin]

As a rule, when you start referring to your Players by insults, you should stop DMing for them.


This is incredibly good advice. It's always been hard for me to follow, but it's good.

[SiuiS]

Are these literal children, or are you just calling the problem player 'children'?

"Problem Child" is a term unto itself with meaning other than 'child who has a problem/I have a problem with'. I feel he was using it in that regard.


And Scurv, on respect and maturity: you get what you give, mate. Yeah, the player was being stupid but seems to honestly have thought that wasn't a problem. It was one session, not even very far into it. That's not enough data for judgement, when it could be any number of things.

Back in my day, yeah. Murder fest. This isn't just our day, anymore. It's everyone's, and there are new assumptions. All I can say is try to relax a bit, and maybe up your vetting standards. I don't invest mysel in any game where the players are all "Kewl powers" and stuff. I'll make a throwaway guy for those games, get emotionally involved only with deeper players.

And seriously? A waste of twenty hours? Explain the issue, call a mulligan, start again. Why the hay are you investing twenty hours prep into guys you've never dealt with before?

[scurv]

Heck I was not even DMing last night, I just got stuck helping them with their chars because I am the one with disposable time (bachelor and no kids)

Well, Adults I tend to define as someone who is capable of taking care of them selfs and engaging the people around them in a civil and non maladaptive manor.

But every week to every few weeks it is the same thing. We got two young 'adult' players one of which seems to be the bad influence on the other who will find some point of contention to ruin the evening. things like flicking cig ashes in the air so they drift over the food being grilled, finding new ways to tpk the group. passively aggressively finding ways to kill party members. Or just walking up to the captain of the guards to kick them in the balls because they did not even think for a moment that maybe the capt Might of been a higher level then the party. And it does not seem to matter who is DMing.

Although I do find it odd how the threads tone is set more by the first responder tone then the OP. I mean seriously people It is a rant. It had a rant on and a rant off, It had a disclaimer when you.

But I came here to post this to get a perspective on whether i was expecting to much And based on the posts here I do believe that My self married couple are expecting to much cooperative behavior from the younger players. Although truth be told when I was their age I was on a flight deck and working with ordnance and responsible for keeping myself and others from getting sucked into an intake, And my sister and brother in law at their age had their own place and started a family, And not going though a series of McJobs while living with the parents, So perhaps that colors my perspective of what mature behavior from people in cooperative endeavors is.

<edit> All that time counts drive time, making two chars and all that. As for recycling the chars that might quite possibly happen at the players decision. But my choosing to invest that time is my contribution to the campaign. Although to call a redo would only encourage that to be done again.

[SiuiS]

Pfff man screw that. If this keeps happening with this same guy then no, you're cool, boot the flicker. The OP sounded like you got a new player who bungled his first game with you. If you're riled because he doesn't know the house feel yet, that's a bit much. If this is a continual thing though? Cut your losses and tell him why.

Worse comes to worst you can be the next That Lanky Bugger.

Ah, and I did miss the rant tag. Heh.

[Jacob.Tyr]

When I read the first post, I assumed the "problem children" were actually Scurvs kids and his nieces/nephews... Man did I think you were a ****.

Other than that your rant seems like a reasonable rant-based reaction.

[valadil]

Anyhoo, here's a simple rule to avoid these sorts of situations in the future: make sure everyone's on the same page.
Before you start up a game, it is good to have an idea as to what sort of games your Players want to play. If you do not know, you should ask.

This prevents you from wasting time on a game that your Players don't like, and can keep immature Players from "flipping the table" and ruining everyone's fun.

Additionally, it can help weed out Players that you do not want to DM for. If you don't want to run a game in which it is your duty to make sure the PCs "win" then it is best to not run games for Players who want that.
In short, it sucks this happened to you but hopefully it will prove to be a valuable lesson for the future.

As much as I like this sort of behavior, it only works with players and GMs who have been around the block a few times and played or seen different styles. I had one player a while back who had played plenty of campaigns, but they were always with the same group. When I asked her what sort of style she was expecting, the answer was always "D&D". In her mind there was One True Play Style and any deviations were wrong.

Okay, that's a little strong. She wasn't on a crusade to fix my game or anything. She simply hadn't been exposed to other play styles yet and the idea that there were others was baffling to her. We had mismatched expectations the whole game, but she does fine in other systems where she doesn't have built in expectations.

Anyway, I bring this up because some players and GMs may have strongly developed opinions about how the game should run. They can't communicate these expectations because they don't know that these are variables. If my GM in high school fudged away all my deaths, I wouldn't be able to tell my college GM I don't like dying. Or I might not know those deaths had been fudged, and I'd tell him I've played plenty and death is fine. I wouldn't be able to communicate my expectations accurately.

[prufock]

Although I do find it odd how the threads tone is set more by the first responder tone then the OP. I mean seriously people It is a rant. It had a rant on and a rant off, It had a disclaimer when you.

You set the tone pretty strongly in the OP, man. Rant tags don't magically negate that. It's like when someone says "no offense, but...." You know the next thing out of their mouth is going to be offensive.

If you aren't having fun playing in this group, just stop playing with them. Simplistic advice, yes, but what's the point of wasting your time? Not all groups work for all people.

[Feddlefew]

This is incredibly good advice. It's always been hard for me to follow, but it's good.

Yeah. It was around the time I noticed I was referring to my problem player (not their character) as "Mr. sexual harassment, esquire" in my DMing notes that I booted him.

Look, I've had players* ring the alarm bells just to see what happens. They survived because the barbarian had more HP than all of the others combined and happened to be standing in the doorway at the time. The we all laughed about the monumental stupidity and ordered Pizza.


*Okay I wasn't DMing this one.... Although I'm pretty sure my character was climbing out of a pit trap when this happened.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Anyway, I bring this up because some players and GMs may have strongly developed opinions about how the game should run. They can't communicate these expectations because they don't know that these are variables. If my GM in high school fudged away all my deaths, I wouldn't be able to tell my college GM I don't like dying. Or I might not know those deaths had been fudged, and I'd tell him I've played plenty and death is fine. I wouldn't be able to communicate my expectations accurately.
In this case, may I recommend this handy and enlightening worksheet (http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/the-same-page-tool/) :smallsmile:

[Tengu_temp]

This is not really a problem of different playstyles. The problem is that some players are disruptive on purpose and purposely do stupid things in order to ruin the game and get the whole party killed. I'd tell them to cut that behaviour and, if they fail to do so, boot them.

The argument one of the problem players made in the OP would have more weight if it didn't come from someone who purposely does stupid crap in order to get everyone killed. If it came from someone who cares about story and characters first and doesn't want to see it all fall apart just because of a bad die roll, then it would be a matter of different playstyles.

[Oracle_Hunter]

This is not really a problem of different playstyles. The problem is that some players are disruptive on purpose and purposely do stupid things in order to ruin the game and get the whole party killed. I'd tell them to cut that behaviour and, if they fail to do so, boot them.

The argument one of the problem players made in the OP would have more weight if it didn't come from someone who purposely does stupid crap in order to get everyone killed. If it came from someone who cares about story and characters first and doesn't want to see it all fall apart just because of a bad die roll, then it would be a matter of different playstyles.
I always assume that if you're gaming with someone they're not random jerks who would break up a game for no reason.

Frustrated Players easily become Problem Players; even the "best" Player can show disturbing behavior if they feel trapped in a game they hate. The worksheet helps reveal whether or not you are having a "same page problem" or whether your Players are just random jerks.

Naturally, if they're just random jerks you kick 'em from your game. There's no reasoning with random jerks :smalltongue:

[valadil]

In this case, may I recommend this handy and enlightening worksheet (http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/the-same-page-tool/) :smallsmile:

That's fantastic! Why have I never seen that before?

[NikitaDarkstar]

Heck I was not even DMing last night, I just got stuck helping them with their chars because I am the one with disposable time (bachelor and no kids)

Well, Adults I tend to define as someone who is capable of taking care of them selfs and engaging the people around them in a civil and non maladaptive manor.

But every week to every few weeks it is the same thing. We got two young 'adult' players one of which seems to be the bad influence on the other who will find some point of contention to ruin the evening. things like flicking cig ashes in the air so they drift over the food being grilled, finding new ways to tpk the group. passively aggressively finding ways to kill party members. Or just walking up to the captain of the guards to kick them in the balls because they did not even think for a moment that maybe the capt Might of been a higher level then the party. And it does not seem to matter who is DMing.

Although I do find it odd how the threads tone is set more by the first responder tone then the OP. I mean seriously people It is a rant. It had a rant on and a rant off, It had a disclaimer when you.

But I came here to post this to get a perspective on whether i was expecting to much And based on the posts here I do believe that My self married couple are expecting to much cooperative behavior from the younger players. Although truth be told when I was their age I was on a flight deck and working with ordnance and responsible for keeping myself and others from getting sucked into an intake, And my sister and brother in law at their age had their own place and started a family, And not going though a series of McJobs while living with the parents, So perhaps that colors my perspective of what mature behavior from people in cooperative endeavors is.

<edit> All that time counts drive time, making two chars and all that. As for recycling the chars that might quite possibly happen at the players decision. But my choosing to invest that time is my contribution to the campaign. Although to call a redo would only encourage that to be done again.

Ehh, you still got that passive-aggressive tone going there scurv, but with more details I see why. And seriously, these people simply don't seem to be worth playing with. At least not something like D&D. Consider playing munchkin with them, it sounds like it might be more up their alley (and seriously it's fun as hell), or some other parody game. If you want to keep playing with them at all.

And the next time they contaminate the food simply tell them they're from now on responsible for paying for the food, and any replacement food due to their ass-hattery. Problem player is one thing, lacking basic manners is another.

[scurv]

Problem players kicked to the curb, as a side note i got a back-hand slap to the face by a 21 year old man. (yes i deliver bad news face to face. We broke bread often enough so i owed him that much) Although it is nice to not dread the weekend anymore. The sad part is if my niece hit me as hard as he did i would most likely be having her practice on the punching bag till she got it right.

[Mr Beer]

As said above, it's good to set expectations with players at the start of the game. I like long running characters and am not above the occasional dice-fudge or deus ex-machina to keep people alive but pointlessly suicidal behaviour is rewarded with...well, achieving suicide.

If someone was trying to get the party killed with stupid behaviour, I would likely arrange for that person get killed and everyone else survive or with the right group, let everyone survive so the party as a whole can then execute that character for their behaviour. Group chastisement is often more effective than the GM saying something.

Really though, if they won't respond to you talking to them about this and they insist on disrupting the evening in game and out as you state, just ban them.

[Jay R]

Problem players kicked to the curb, as a side note i got a back-hand slap to the face by a 21 year old man. (yes i deliver bad news face to face. We broke bread often enough so i owed him that much) Although it is nice to not dread the weekend anymore. The sad part is if my niece hit me as hard as he did i would most likely be having her practice on the punching bag till she got it right.

Some blows are worth taking, just to clarify the situation.

The problem appears to be solved. I hope you have a satisfying game soon.

[Mr Beer]

Problem players kicked to the curb, as a side note i got a back-hand slap to the face by a 21 year old man. (yes i deliver bad news face to face. We broke bread often enough so i owed him that much)

Well, if he flips out and attacks people when they give him bad news, I think it's safe to say he's not the kind of person you want to spend any time around.

How did you respond? It sounds like you didn't beat him to a jelly so did you give him the "Really?" *raise eyebrow* rebuttal?

[Trekkin]

The sad part is if my niece hit me as hard as he did i would most likely be having her practice on the punching bag till she got it right.

That is not the sad part here.

I'm not taking a side in this. There's no way I could feel justified in doing that from the data we have. Just in general, though, and for the next time people try to game with you: if you disapprove of the rest of their lives as vehemently as you did these people, this problem will almost inevitably recur in some form, so it might be worth gaming only with people you feel you can respect.

It doesn't necessarily mean anything about either you or them, but when out of game differences start souring a game there's definitionally no way to fix that in game.

[GnomeFighter]

I'm sorry, but it seems like you (the OP) has a basic problem with these people and they way they live there lives. The talk of McJobs and how "when I was young I had responsability". It seems like there is a basic lack of respect on both sides.

Playing a game requires a basic level of respect and trust both ways. Respect for others work. Respect for each other when talking. Etc.

Reading between the lines I can't help thinking there is some "They arn't playing it my way! How dare they". With only one side we will never know, but for someone to resort to violence when told "Sorry, I don't think you should play anymore" makes me think there is something more going on and the way the OP has talked about his background and theres and talks with contempt about the "problem players" makes me think there is a deeper cause.

[Darius Kane]

What happened to your "Bad gaming is better than no gaming" attitude, scurv?

BTW, if I were in your place, the guy who hit you (even if it wasn't a serious hit) would have his hand broken.

[scurv]

What happened to your "Bad gaming is better than no gaming" attitude, scurv?

BTW, if I were in your place, the guy who hit you (even if it wasn't a serious hit) would have his hand broken.


Is that with your non-veteran military experience? But re-read that thread so you jab the right person with that quip.

But this is largely a case of what happens when you endure a friend of a friend who you just do not like. So we can call it culture difference between him and I. I was raised with some standards of respect and I have been able to live and work in both cites and the sticks from coast to coast with little if any issue. My issues was with disrespect to the group, disrespect to the host, and on more then one occasion having to remove a bag of pot that fell out of his pocket from my car when i was giving him a ride home. My car is subject to search when i go to work. And he might of been a good friend of a friend. But I have little desire to loose my clearance for a pot-head who so far in life the most productive thing he has done is not gotten arrested.

But for how you deal with a slap like that, Meh I draw the line at blood. I mean my nieces hit me harder when we rough house. I just shook my head with the silent "what is that" and went back to my car. As a side note if a slap on the cheek is what it takes to settle that issue, meh its cheep enough price to pay.

[The Grue]

Is that with your non-veteran military experience? But re-read that thread so you jab the right person with that quip.

Okay, little bugbear of mine here. I have a lot of respect for people who serve in the armed forces, and this extends to folks outside my own country(Canada).

What I have zero respect for is people who play the military card to win arguments and feel superior, like you just did there. If this is how you've been acting with your "problem players", I think the problem is you.

[SiuiS]

Is that with your non-veteran military experience? But re-read that thread so you jab the right person with that quip.

But this is largely a case of what happens when you endure a friend of a friend who you just do not like. So we can call it culture difference between him and I. I was raised with some standards of respect and I have been able to live and work in both cites and the sticks from coast to coast with little if any issue. My issues was with disrespect to the group, disrespect to the host, and on more then one occasion having to remove a bag of pot that fell out of his pocket from my car when i was giving him a ride home. My car is subject to search when i go to work. And he might of been a good friend of a friend. But I have little desire to loose my clearance for a pot-head who so far in life the most productive thing he has done is not gotten arrested.

But for how you deal with a slap like that, Meh I draw the line at blood. I mean my nieces hit me harder when we rough house. I just shook my head with the silent "what is that" and went back to my car. As a side note if a slap on the cheek is what it takes to settle that issue, meh its cheep enough price to pay.

Respect.


Okay, little bugbear of mine here. I have a lot of respect for people who serve in the armed forces, and this extends to folks outside my own country(Canada).

What I have zero respect for is people who play the military card to win arguments and feel superior, like you just did there. If this is how you've been acting with your "problem players", I think the problem is you.

Nah, I read that as "I know how to really hurt people, and it puts it in perspective". I didn't like the way he said it but there's a valid point to having a career where you just don't take casual violence in stride anymore.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Sigh... OP, it seems like the players you had were the main source of problems, and that's been taken care of.

Now, even if someone was to be a jerk/dolt/idiot player like that, getting angry will only escalate the mood. Even after the bad player has left, that negative influence will stay at the table. Of course, him slapping you really meant something; something about his maturity and ability to control reactions. If a player is like that, explain how he's ruining everyone's playing experience, not the DM ruining. And then offer a restart to try and lessen hostility.

However, if he hits you, no matter what the damage/weakness of it, you should probably be more worried about
A. His ability to control his stability.
B. Your own emotional response.

Also, a player is a player; if he acts immaturely, it doesn't mean that he's a child, nor do you have to call him so.

Just try to keep yourself calmer next time.

[Trekkin]

If this is how you've been acting with your "problem players", I think the problem is you.

This is why I really wish I could play with this OP's problem players. It sounds, on reflection, less like they're just being disruptive to be disruptive and more like they're either brilliant or insane depending on how much you trust them, and I'm used to GMing for people like that.

I mean, it's entirely possible he's entirely like he's been described. Astronomically unlikely, but possible. But whenever I hear someone described as a no-account, disrespectful punk who is themselves unworthy of respect, my first impulse is to see how they act around people not constantly making their disapproval known -- and even if you don't think they're picking up on it, when you think of someone as a problem child, that shines through.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've found a lot of really awesome friends just by not insisting everyone I'm around respect me for what I am and what I've done. It's a good way to realize when my ego's a bit out of control.

[Deffers]

I dunno, scurv. I remember there were at least two other threads by you I've read. In them, you talked about how much you disliked your players and their sense of "entitlement"-- often with quite a bit of bitterness going on. In the flintlock thread, I actually thought the idea of trying to make a repeating rifle starting from flintlock tech level could be a cool idea, if handled right. I sometimes get the vibe that maybe you just don't like certain playstyles.

On the other hand, the player doing the whole backhand slap thingy REALLY makes it sound like maybe he ain't the most stable of people. The way you can get upset at people (like whatever the hell went on with the "quip" thing, yeah I remember the military posts from a while ago, I still don't know what the hell is going on). So I'm guessing there's a little bit of blame here, and a little bit of blame there. My heartfelt suggestion would be that maybe you need to do some soul-searching yourself, too, to figure out how to handle these things better? I really don't mean this in a bad way. Just consider the possibility that if both of you were to blame THIS time, then maybe NEXT time a problem comes up you can deal with it better on your end somehow and result in a more satisfactory conclusion.

Also, it appears that you might be giving Trekkin some sort of flashback to his currently infamous sessions. This is really not a good sign!