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Rezby
2013-04-13, 08:37 PM
I'm wondering, if a Paladin has a geas spell cast on him and as part of his instructions is made to commit an evil act, would the Paladin still retain his Paladin powers (due to the fact that he literally has no control over himself) or lose them as soon as the first evil act is committed?

Below are the relevant spells with relevant sections in boldface and larger font.


This spell functions similarly to lesser geas, except that it affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw.

Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest. Additionally, each day it must make a Fortitude saving throw or become sickened. These effects end 24 hours after the creature attempts to resume the geas/quest.

A remove curse spell ends a geas/quest spell only if its caster level is at least two higher than your caster level. Break enchantment does not end a geas/quest, but limited wish, miracle, and wish do.

Bards, sorcerers, and wizards usually refer to this spell as geas, while clerics call the same spell quest.



A lesser geas places a magical command on a creature to carry out some service or to refrain from some action or course of activity, as desired by you. The creature must have 7 or fewer Hit Dice and be able to understand you. While a geas cannot compel a creature to kill itself or perform acts that would result in certain death, it can cause almost any other course of activity.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level. A clever recipient can subvert some instructions:

If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a -2 penalty to each of its ability scores. Each day, another -2 penalty accumulates, up to a total of -8. No ability score can be reduced to less than 1 by this effect. The ability score penalties are removed 24 hours after the subject resumes obeying the lesser geas.

A lesser geas (and all ability score penalties) can be ended by break enchantment, limited wish, remove curse, miracle, or wish. Dispel magic does not affect a lesser geas.


Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

(all quotes taken from the totally legal d20srd).

Nettlekid
2013-04-13, 08:41 PM
A Paladin who commits an evil act either unwillingly as a result of things like coercion, mind-control like Geas, ignorance of a situation, etc will lose their Paladin powers but can get an Atonement cast on them for no XP cost and regain their powers. A Paladin who willingly commits an evil act must pay 500 XP for that same Atonement. So the answer is yes, a Paladin will fall if they are Geased into Evil.

Rezby
2013-04-13, 08:43 PM
But the SRD says paladins who 'willfully commit an evil act' etc etc. If there's no will, where's the text that says they lose powers anyways?

Nettlekid
2013-04-13, 08:46 PM
Well, under the Atonement spell, for one. It describes that Paladins can use the spell to get their powers back, and the difference between if someone did the evil willingly or under compulsion.

ArcturusV
2013-04-13, 08:50 PM
Well, it also lists things like wearing a helm of opposite alignment (Totally not your will to become evil) making you fall. So the "Willingly" thing probably refers to something approaching Japanese Traffic Violation Legality, "You were rear ended by a drunk driver? Well the accident wouldn't have happened if you weren't on the road, you're at fault too."

Though a SMART paladin will instead seek to subvert the order or put it off (Which is legal), and find someone to cast a Remove Curse on him. Or if his level is high enough and he was smart enough to take the right ACF, just Remove Curse himself...

Karnith
2013-04-13, 08:54 PM
But the SRD says paladins who 'willfully commit an evil act' etc etc. If there's no will, where's the text that says they lose powers anyways?
Right here:
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.
(Emphasis mine)

Willfully committing an evil act means that you've fallen, but so does committing any act that grossly violates a paladin's code (willfully or no), because the restrictions on acting in accordance with the code are on top of the restriction against willfully committing an evil act. They are defined separately, so while you need to willfully commit an evil act, any action that grossly violates your code (respecting legitimate authority, acting with honor, helping those in need, and punishing those who threaten/harm innocent) means that you fall.

Which is why paladins are always so much fun to play.

Flickerdart
2013-04-13, 08:57 PM
Willfully committing an evil act means that you've fallen, but so does committing any act that violates a paladin's code (willfully or no), because the restrictions on acting in accordance with the code are on top of the restriction against willfully committing an evil act.
You must grossly violate the code. You can occasionally lie, cheat, and disrespect authority, as long as you don't chop off your liege's head, quaff a potion of Glibness and try to trick people into thinking he's declaring new laws by moving his jaw up and down with your hand and trying to do his accent.

Karnith
2013-04-13, 08:58 PM
You must grossly violate the code. You can occasionally lie, cheat, and disrespect authority, as long as you don't chop off your liege's head, quaff a potion of Glibness and try to trick people into thinking he's still alive by mowing his jaw up and down with your hand.
Sorry, you're right, and I've fixed my post to reflect this.

Since we're talking about being geas-ed into it, though, I would assume that we're dealing with worst-case scenarios.