How to hide your Alignment...

[Kerilstrasz]

There is a group, she is a paladin, he is a rogue..
an evil rogue...
he never acts evil while at her presence.. but she will at some point use
detect evil... how can he hide his "evilness" ???

(3,5 only , lvl range of interest 1-9, no mags or homebrew)

[Morcleon]

1. Ring of Mind Shielding. Immunity to detect thoughts, dicern lies, and alignment detection. Costs 8000 gp.

2. Custom 1/day use-activated item of Undetectable Alignment. Costs 1 (spell level) * 1 (CL) / 5 (1/day) * 2000 (use-activated) = 400 gp.

Number 1 would be good for a mid-to-low-OP group around level 8-9. Number 2 would work for level 3+ in a high-OP group.

[Renen]

Dip in that PrC who's name escapes me. (And now Im actually trying to remember, help me out someone)
The PrC is pretty much makes you not exist. One of the bonuses iirc is hiding your alignment.

[Jeff the Green]

A few other things:

Don't give the paladin a reason to detect evil you. It takes three rounds of concentration to figure out a particular person is evil.
Combined with the above, a gentleman's agreement with the paladin's player not to scan your character.
Be undead/evil outsider. Even Good undead and evil outsiders detect as evil. Use magic aura to give yourself a good aura as well.



Dip in that PrC who's name escapes me. (And now Im actually trying to remember, help me out someone)
The PrC is pretty much makes you not exist. One of the bonuses iirc is hiding your alignment.

Zhentarim Spy, from PGtF does it at 5th level (ECL 10)

[Renen]

No not him... another one that erases itself from minds of ppl he meets. I remember in it's description it says something like "this person can live next door to you for years and you wouldn't even know you have a neighbour"

[ArcturusV]

I remember it being mentioned on this board a couple of days ago. Void Incarnate?

[KillianHawkeye]

My favorite solution to this problem is the Mask of Gentility feat (Exemplars of Evil, page 25) which you can take at level 6 if you have a decent Charisma and Bluff and Disguise as class skills. Makes you automatically register as True Neutral to any alignment-detecting divination.



EDIT: If you're an arcane spellcaster, you could also try for the Vecna-Blooded template (MM5), which makes you permanently immune to ALL divinations. Also, nobody but you and Vecna remembers who you are, and it makes you look like Voldemort, forever. Only requires 2nd level spells and an Evil alignment (and something about solving riddles and a pocket dimension full of torture). Level adjustment +1.

[Renen]

Yeh that's him. But qualifying is brutal

[Jeff the Green]

That won't help unless you can convince somebody to cast detect good and then Bluff your way past the two conflicting readings.

No need for bluff if you're undead/evil outsider. Plenty of good/neutral tieflings and a decent number of good/neutral undead.

[ArcturusV]

Or Lawful Good Paladin Succubi hitting all four. :smalltongue:

[Renen]

No need for bluff if you're undead/evil outsider. Plenty of good/neutral tieflings and a decent number of good/neutral undead.

You need to bluff because you are read not only as good but also as evil. The bluff will be explanation to why you read as both

[Jeff the Green]

You need to bluff because you are read not only as good but also as evil. The bluff will be explanation to why you read as both

The explanation is self-evident: you ping as evil because you're undead, you ping as good because you are. Any half-way decent paladin should know that.

[KillianHawkeye]

No need for bluff if you're undead/evil outsider. Plenty of good/neutral tieflings and a decent number of good/neutral undead.

Yeah, sorry, I realized that bit was dependant on the context of being an undead/evil outsider, so I deleted my comment about it. Though apparently I wasn't fast enough. :smallsigh::smallamused:

[Skysaber]

Best way not to detect as evil is simply not be evil. :smalltongue:

Barring that, there are a number of ways to do it. In addition to those mentioned, in Rokugan there is the feat Perceived Alignment, only requirements are Int 13+, and allows you to emulate any alignment within one step of your own. Take it twice and emulate whatever alignment you want.

[herculesftw]

one level dip in spy master gives you undetectable alignment

[Bakeru]

Yeh that's him. But qualifying is brutalNo wonder, Void Incarnate is an epic Prestige Class.

Also, has anyone suggested the Master of Masks from Complete Scoundrel yet? You can qualify at level 5, and it allows you to fake your alignment for divinations. One level would be enough for that.

[Duke of Urrel]

Pardon my ignorance, but where is it stated in the rules that non-Evil creatures of the Undead type always radiate detectable Evil? From what I can find, neither the Undead type nor any species of Undead that I know of necessarily belongs to the Evil alignment subtype.

And whatever in the world would make a paladin with any sense at all more likely to trust your claim not to be Evil if you're Undead or, for that matter, an Outsider of the Evil alignment subtype, rather than just an Evil Humanoid? This assumption relies on some serious metagame thinking, like the assumption that if you meet a drow elf in an adventuring party, he or she is probably one of those ubiquitous Good drow who are trying to save the reputation of their subspecies.

[ArcturusV]

It's in the spell description for Detect Evil itself.

Notice the entries of what it detects are: "Evil Creature", "Evil Outsider", "Cleric of an evil deity", "Evil magic item or spell", and "Undead".

Detect Good, Law, or Chaos say nothing about Undead, only Detect Evil says it detects undead.

This is extrapolated to mean that all Undead radiate an Evil Aura (With intensity based on hit dice).

In fact it seems assumed because a few select Undead Templates actually mention that you don't detect as Evil... like that Elf Lich template from Forgotten Realms.

[Aedilred]

1. Ring of Mind Shielding. Immunity to detect thoughts, dicern lies, and alignment detection. Costs 8000 gp.

2. Custom 1/day use-activated item of Undetectable Alignment. Costs 1 (spell level) * 1 (CL) / 5 (1/day) * 2000 (use-activated) = 400 gp.

The simplest answers are often the best. I'd go with one of these.

I've never been a fan of detect alignment spells - especially because paladins can use them so indiscriminately. In my worlds, amulets of Undetectable Alignment have traditionally been as cheap as chips.

[Duke of Urrel]

Hmmm. Maybe I shouldn't so hastily have dismissed the utility of an Evil alignment subtype as a back-handed source of plausible deniability. However, I think you need more than that to convince a paladin who has high Sense Motive skill and possibly also the Discern Lies spell at her disposal.

Maybe there's a Certificate of Atonement that you can forge and pass off as the work of a non-Evil cleric who certifies that you are not Evil and have resolved to change your alignment to something non-Evil. I imagine that truly reformed drow elves and tieflings must desire some kind of documentation like that so that they won't have to endure, everywhere they go and at every turn (and certainly every time they deal with any non-Evil officer of the law), the all-too-justified suspicion that they are not truly reformed, as they claim to be.

However, if I were a paladin in a party with a comrade who had a detectable Evil alignment subtype, a Certificate of Atonement would be the least that I would require. Preferably, I would want to meet the certifying cleric personally. Even more preferably, I would want to impose a Mark of Justice and forbid my comrade to kill any non-Evil foe except in self-defense. I would never be one of those hyper-moral paladins who would kill someone simply because he or she is Evil, but I surely would prefer to be one who's not foolish enough to trust someone who radiates detectable Evil – unless I can take precautions to protect myself and my fellow travelers from possible treachery. And no whining about "violations of my personal freedom/privacy/autonomy" would move me – that's what the "Lawful" part of "Lawful-Good" means.

[ArcturusV]

I'd laugh if there was such a certificate. Also because in my experience playing 3rd edition? I've only ever seen one character with Forgery... one I made. And the only thing that can counter Forgery is Forgery.

So even just a level or two invested in it would guarantee that no one in the world would ever be able to see through your fake documents of "I'm Not Evil, No, Really."

[Duke of Urrel]

At first, I was reluctant to accept your arguments, Arcturus V, but then I realized that I need to revise my own interpretations. Here's how it happened: I just looked up the skeleton and zombie templates in Jans Carton's SRD and discovered, to my surprise, that both skeletons and zombies are now "always Neutral Evil."

This kind of sudden discovery of the depth of my own ignorance – or "stupiphany," if you will – happens a lot to me. My notions of the rules and what they mean have been, until recently, very firmly rooted in 3.0 rules, because until recently, I learned exclusively from version 3.0 rulebooks. In version 3.0, both skeletons and zombies were "always Neutral." (I can quote the page numbers from my old Monster Manual if you'd like.) So I assumed that you really couldn't depend on the Detect Evil spell to detect two of the commonest species of Undead. That's what the Detect Undead spell was for, I always thought – reasonably enough, I believe.

However, with "Neutral" skeletons and zombies out of the picture in version 3.5, I don't have much to quibble about anymore. Non-Evil Undead are probably even less common than non-Evil Outsiders with Evil alignment subtypes. As a result, your interpretation of the RAW now seems much more plausible than mine. Thanks for helping me along in my slow process of up-dating my 3.0 notions to 3.5!

[TuggyNE]

Maybe there's a Certificate of Atonement that you can forge and pass off as the work of a non-Evil cleric who certifies that you are not Evil and have resolved to change your alignment to something non-Evil. I imagine that truly reformed drow elves and tieflings must desire some kind of documentation like that so that they won't have to endure, everywhere they go and at every turn (and certainly every time they deal with any non-Evil officer of the law), the all-too-justified suspicion that they are not truly reformed, as they claim to be.

For what it's worth, neither drow nor tieflings detect as Evil unless they actually are, or wish to pretend they are, since neither of them has the subtype in question. So while one might reasonably have trouble being sure they're actually Good, it's not because of spurious detect evil results.

Also, congrats on your "stupiphany"! :smallsmile: A good example for us all.

[The Grue]

Slightly cheesy and potentially subject to DM overrule, but RAW an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location (god damn that's a long-ass name) works against all Divination spells. Go ahead, look it up. :smalltongue:

[TuggyNE]

Slightly cheesy and potentially subject to DM overrule, but RAW an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location (god damn that's a long-ass name) works against all Divination spells. Go ahead, look it up. :smalltongue:

In this specific use, it's not even a little bit cheesy; nondetection, which is what it's based on, explicitly works against detect spells. Also, it's totally in the name of the item too. :smalltongue:

Pity it's so expensive.

[Duke of Urrel]

I'd laugh if there was such a certificate. Also because in my experience playing 3rd edition? I've only ever seen one character with Forgery... one I made. And the only thing that can counter Forgery is Forgery.

So even just a level or two invested in it would guarantee that no one in the world would ever be able to see through your fake documents of "I'm Not Evil, No, Really."

Like I said, I wouldn't accept a Certificate of Atonement by itself if I could help it. But suppose you're a typical harried border guard or watchman at the city gate. Can you detect evil by magic? Probably not. Of course, as a general principle, you are strongly disinclined to let some guy with horns or pallid flesh pass through your gate or across your bridge. But if this guy shows you an official-looking document ostensibly signed by a locally known cleric of Goodness, you may satisfy yourself with sending a message to a local expert to check this fellow's papers later, just so that you can keep the line moving. Such experts do exist – indeed, I believe Forgery skill may be more common even than the ability to cast spells in some settled areas with high literacy and organized, Lawful government.

Of course, whether this kind of thing exists in your game world depends on your DM, not on me. It also depends, I suppose, on how common those atypical "reformed" Undead and Evil Outsiders are in your game world, and what kind of legal rights their small community has won for itself.

[Duke of Urrel]

For what it's worth, neither drow nor tieflings detect as Evil unless they actually are, or wish to pretend they are, since neither of them has the subtype in question. So while one might reasonably have trouble being sure they're actually Good, it's not because of spurious detect evil results.

Ah, good point. I should have chosen other examples, such as the exquisitely rare reformed Undead.

Now you've got me looking up more things! I just looked up "half-fiend" to see whether this template always has the Evil alignment subtype – and it seems not to, though the alignment of a half-fiend is given as "always Evil."

So I'd like to know: What possibility exists for any Outsider at all to be non-Evil by choice, yet still have the Evil subtype? The narrower this possibility, the less likely anybody with a detectable Evil aura would ever use "I can't help it; I just have an Evil subtype" as an excuse, and the less likely anybody would ever use such a thing as a Certificate of Atonement.

[eryrwyn]

Ah, good point. I should have chosen other examples, such as the exquisitely rare reformed Undead.

Now you've got me looking up more things! I just looked up "half-fiend" to see whether this template always has the Evil alignment subtype – and it seems not to, though the alignment of a half-fiend is given as "always Evil."

So I'd like to know: What possibility exists for any Outsider at all to be non-Evil by choice, yet still have the Evil subtype? The narrower this possibility, the less likely anybody with a detectable Evil aura would ever use "I can't help it; I just have an Evil subtype" as an excuse, and the less likely anybody would ever use such a thing as a Certificate of Atonement.

I'd say it's very rare, such as those few 'reformed' fiends. Unless you play Planescape, where all kinds of combinations are possible. (A LN chaste succubus? Why not!) But then, the Certificate of Atonement sounds TOTALLY possible if we're speaking of Planescape. I can just imagine those Mechanus-, Arcadia- or even Mount Celestia-dwelling clerks producing one after extensive examinations and, more than likely, quest by a high-standing cleric/celestial.

[Studoku]

In this specific use, it's not even a little bit cheesy; nondetection, which is what it's based on, explicitly works against detect spells. Also, it's totally in the name of the item too. :smalltongue:

Pity it's so expensive.
And allows a caster level check with a flat DC which isn't that hard by the time you can afford it. Especially bad if your DM rules that the paladin knows detect evil is failing (as opposed to not detecting anything) so she can spam it until it works.

You're past the riskiest time for a paladin to detect evil you. The trigger happy ones will usually use it as soon as they meet you or as soon as you form a party. As long as you don't piss her off, don't do anything suspicious in front of her and don't stand in front of her while she's scanning other people, you should be fine.

If you really want protection from detect evil and have decent int, take a level of Beguiler (PHB II). Level 1 beguiler casting gives you access to a lot of useful spells for rogues including Undetectable Alignment. It won't mess up your skills much, since beguilers get 6+ int and have all the rogue skills as class skills.

[Duke of Urrel]

I'd say it's very rare, such as those few 'reformed' fiends. Unless you play Planescape, where all kinds of combinations are possible.

Now that I've checked, it seems that under the rules of version 3.0, it was explicitly possible for all half-fiends to be non-Evil by choice, despite having an Evil subtype. Tieflings, on the other hand, never had an Evil subtype, so my use of them as an example was altogether wrong.

[Razanir]

The main options I can see:
1) Magic items
2) Feats
3) A gentlemen's agreement
4) Carry a sheet of lead as a rite of passage :belkar:

[supervillan]

I have taken Detect Evil and its like to specifically detect only "auras" in my games. This means your paladin will detect evil clerics, blackguards, outsiders and undead, but not simply a humanoid with an evil alignment. Ruling this way prevents some of the most annoying paladin behaviours that can detract from the game ("Hey, that guy's evil! I'm going to arrest/kill/stop him, for the greater good! What do you mean, what's he done wrong?").

Outsiders are another interesting case. I think of them as being incarnations of ideals (of whatever alignment). So, if an evil outsider were to somehow become good it would cease to exist because it's existence as an outsider is a manifestation of an evil ideal. This would never happen as a result of the outsider's active will. It would be impossible for the evil outsider to choose not to be evil. You can't save a Balor's soul.

[Duke of Urrel]

"Hey, that guy's evil! I'm going to arrest/kill/stop him, for the greater good! What do you mean, what's he done wrong?"

If more people understood the "Good" part of "Lawful-Good" properly, the kind of behavior you describe would not be typical of paladins at all. It would be typical of Lawful-Neutral fanatics who live according to the extreme and not at all kindly Law that "Thou shalt not suffer an Evil creature to live."

Goodness, even its Lawful variant, is supposed to make exceptions to the Law out of mercy, to regard even Evil creatures as innocent until proven guilty (that is, to punish only actual crimes, not potential ones), and to aim for correction and redemption rather than killing whenever possible, most particularly when the Evil creature has a changeable alignment that may be turned toward Goodness. Since this changeability is particularly strong in the human species, being truly Good necessarily entails a respect for human life that should preclude the instant, trial-free execution of a human being just because he or she happens to harbor Evil thoughts or desires. Many Evil humans, after all, are too cowardly to act on their cruel and selfish wishes most of the time, and a few of them do eventually reform themselves. Just as often, of course, Good or morally Neutral people may turn toward Evil – occasionally because they resent the over-zealous prosecutors of unyielding Law.

Lack of tolerance, empathy, patience, and the ability to forgive is a Lawful-Neutral trait, not a Lawful-Good one. Making no exceptions; acting according to strict, simple, and absolute rules; tolerating no differing opinions; and dealing punishment in advance of any actual crime, simply out of suspicion or prejudice, are all Lawful-Neutral behaviors, not Lawful-Good ones. Unsurprisingly, the phrase "greater good" (notice the small 'g' here) is, I believe, a favorite among Lawful-Neutrals; in contrast, truly Good individuals should recognize that when somebody appeals to the "greater good," this is often only an excuse to be more rigidly and mercilessly Lawful than a truly Good conscience would allow. (A similar thing happens when Chaotic-Neutrals appeal to their "individual freedom.")

There are various ways to "tweak" the alignment system, with its cut-and-dried rigidity that seems to be built-in. You are right to see this as a potential problem, Supervillan, and you have mentioned a viable option in your last posting. I'm not sure I would take this option, because I'm not sure I want Outsiders to appear categorically more tainted than Evil natives of the Material Plane. Humans, being able to turn their creative spirits toward Evil just as easily as toward Goodness, are capable of moral depravity just as deep as any demon's or devil's, and I think human Evil should be no less detectable.

Another option might be to let alignments be constantly detectable and to let all creatures have alignment auras (which is the default assumption, I think), but to allow a creature's aura occasionally to waver with its own thoughts and desires from one alignment to another. Even Good creatures have Evil thoughts every now and then, and when they do, they should radiate detectable Evil. This would make it clear that detecting momentary Evil in a morally changeable and therefore redeemable creature, such as a human being, is no excuse to execute that creature on the spot.