[3.5] Would need help with Ninja

[Virosa]

Hello everybody. We're starting a new game and this time, i don't get to be the optimized caster of doom, nor the bard who give crazy buff. So since i'm used to play stuff like Optimized Blaster/CC Sorcerer or any other caster, i'm a bit out of my element.

This time, I have to be the player who bring Spot, Listen, Open lock, Disable device, Move Silently + Hide and Bluff/sense motive to the table.

I have to be a heavy damage dealer but melee and apparently, we are going to be fighting some nasty stuff.

Currently, we have a Optimized All Blaster Sorcerer (no comment), a semi? optimized inspire courage (Ranged) bard (Getting the feats and items but not the PRCs), a Unspecified Cleric... and me.

Important points:
The campaign settings could be compared to a medieval resident evil with alot of diplomacy. -The DM

We can use every D&D3.5 source with the exception that if a spell exist in Greyhawk, we can't use the Faerun spell version of the same name.

We start at lvl 5, plan on going high level, maybe epic.

My character is a Custom Lesser Avariel, on paper its a player handbook elf but with gimped wings with dragonborn's wing progression. At higher level i'll have 50 good fly speed with no level adjustment ever (lol) with RP string attached.

My character also got a special gift to be able to sneak attack undeads only (They really want me to be melee stab stab)

Final Stats are 16 18(+2) 16(-2) 14 19 12.

So far i got lv 5 ninja with 41hp, 24 ac (with continuous Shield Spell) and plan on getting almost 40 ac, unless i get a better dps option, i'd stay full ninja...

So far all i found to help is TWF with elven thinblades, Staggering strike(kind of slow on whoever i sneak attack) and Craven(+1 sneak damage/level) and buying a Belt of Battle asap to get me out of trouble.

I'm pro Ninja because i'll be able to sneak attack on all my attack every round solo (since i wont have a melee buddy for flanking) but i'm bit concerned since some say tons of higher level undead/demon often come with True Seeing as a default option :P.

So basically, should i stick to what i got so far or go back to the drawing board?

-V

[Urpriest]

It might be better to be a Rogue (and/or Deadly Outlaw type build) with Wild Cohort to get a furry flanking friend. As a Ninja you probably won't have enough rounds of invisibility to last all day, and as mentioned at higher levels True Seeing will be a problem (though by then you could have Hide in Plain Sight and just hide from your foes).

[ArcturusV]

I honestly wouldn't think of a Ninja in terms of a "Combat Class" and I think that's the first mistake. Rogues just have an insanely easier time since you basically have to be inept not to be able to get Sneak Attacks, constantly. So you're likely to just spend all game long wishing you were playing a rogue, if you go combat focus.

Similarly though they suffer on skill points to make them less useful as skill monkeys. Not to mention not having UMD on their class skill list.

Your advantages are Invisibility and other Ki Uses. I don't think they quite make up for it though. As mentioned, True Sight is a problem. As is alternate senses like Scent at low level, Blindsight/sense, Tremorsense, etc, at higher levels.

Just... there's a reason the Ninja is a tier lower than the Rogue. Everything is harder. The only marginal success I've had with the Ninja was playing as a "Combat Engineer"... using stealth skills and Disable Device/Sleight of Hand and Craft (Traps) to sneak into places and alter the battlefield as much as possible, then get out.

[Virosa]

...you basically have to be inept not to be able to get Sneak Attacks, constantly.

Afaik, all the different ways to get a sneak attack, constantly, work for the ninja too, minus Flanking.

I'm not against going rogue instead of Ninja, but i picked Ninja for the AC boost(+12 or more AC later on is alot imo) and being able to get out of trouble on a whim with Ethereal Ghost step. Also as a ninja, you shouldn't get attacked in the first place.

Plus for the amount of KI points comment, i don't find 6 rounds at my level and 15+ later on a little amount, as that is only one way to score of a Sneak attack.

I'm not sure about Wild Cohort, i'm not sure what good a pet with half my hp and half my AC will do if he is dead every other combat. I'll ask my DM. If i can cheese my way into getting a flank buddy following me every round i'd do same damage as a Ninja or more, so going combat rogue could work for me.

At any rate, what i'm wondering is how to best do my job beyond getting sneak damage on all my attacks, i don't think being Ninja or Rogue is going to matter much here, since in either case you need more ways than Flank/Invisibility.

I don't see how Hide in Plain sight would be much good. The only ways i know to get hide in plain sight depend on being on a specific terrain or having concealment from hiding in darkness or close to darkness and True Seeing see through normal and magical Darkness, thus you lose your concealment against that target, thus you can't hide from it...

And if you do succeed, you either lose your hide as soon as you attack, thus you get 1 sneak then you're ****ed or you use Snipe with -10/-20 to hide and get one attack per turn.

[DMVerdandi]

Ninja is great as an archetype, but WOTC did not do them justice. AT ALL.

You would have an easier time playing a convincing and awesome ninja by taking up a caster class. It's not something lots of people want to hear, but it's the truth. Ninja in folklore are inherently magical anyway. Their study of Kuji-kiri is a form of meditation, and use of onmyoudo is COMPLETELY magical.

Now, the problem is getting over the whole attacking thing. Ninja are known for their ability to lay down some excellent taijutsu and wreck faces, and doing that with a full caster hardly ever comes to fruition soon enough. A total downside, yes, but spellcasting helps a LOT in making the whole thing work.

Now, to be honest, the best way to pull of the ninja is through the archivist. They get plenty of spells through scrolls, and cleric spells to boot. Refluff the prayer book as a scroll of sutras and it's working perfectly. A first level dip into the rokugan ninja, and you have tons of asian inspired weapons.


Wizard also works VERY, but would be more towards using spells as ninjutsu themselves. Research Divine power and duplicate, and you are set.
Furthermore, pick up arcane strike and just destroy.

Druids themselves work almost effortlessly as ninja, with the ability to transform into animals and summon them (as in Jiraya Gotetsu Monogatari), and their great nature based spells.


Meanwhile, the CA ninja is fooling around, trying to sudden strike people.


Wu Jen is an idea too...

[Greenish]

This time, I have to be the player who bring Spot, Listen, Open lock, Disable device, Move Silently + Hide and Bluff/sense motive to the table.Hmm, artificer could do it, but cleric might have easier time (Kobold domain, Tricky Domain, Church Inquisitor). Beguiler would be an excellent option except for…
I have to be a heavy damage dealer but melee and apparently, we are going to be fighting some nasty stuff.

Hmm, your race shuts out Able Learner, otherwise I might suggest RKV. As is, I think a Swift Hunter or a multiclass Barbarian (with Dungeonscape Trap Killer ACF and Guerilla Scout/Warrior feats) might work the best.


Or, if you really want to do Sneak Attack, a rogue multiclass should work too (straight rogue might prove too fragile).

[Fyermind]

If you want to play a ninja-style character, play a beguiler. You can go gish with arcane strike if you really want to, you have lots of spells slots you could burn through.

Swordsage or Artificer also cover the concept very well and are both better at melee.

[Glimbur]

Ninja is great as an archetype, but WOTC did not do them justice. AT ALL.

You would have an easier time playing a convincing and awesome ninja by taking up a caster class. It's not something lots of people want to hear, but it's the truth. Ninja in folklore are inherently magical anyway. Their study of Kuji-kiri is a form of meditation, and use of onmyoudo is COMPLETELY magical.



You might also consider the Factotum, from Dungeonscape. They are much less magical than a real caster, but they get sneak attack and lots of skills. Combat with them is suggested to include Iajutsu Focus (skill from Oriental Adventures), which is at least from the right culture.

[limejuicepowder]

Swordsage or Factotum, all the way. I'd lean towards factotum as long as the DM lets you use more than one inspiration point at a time on the sneak attack ability. Cunning surge also has ninja written all over it.

Swordsage probably has a bit more lasting power, though. Inspiration points are not equal to maneuvers in the combat dept. Overall, the factotum is more versatile and skill-oriented, but the swordsage is better for raw combat ability. Just my opinion of course.

Another option is assassin. Absurdly easy prereqs, and they get some nice ninja-type abilities. Entry classes can be almost anything - I'd go factotum 5 for the intelligence synergy.

[Virosa]

Haha, thanks for all the replies. I don't even see the CA Ninja as a Ninja, its kind of far from what it should be, at any rate i don't care for a Ninja playstyle, i wasnt even going to introduced my character as a ninja in game if i ended up with Ninja. Damn, thats alot of Ninjas for not caring about Ninjas.

Anyways, i talked things over with my DM, thus;

I'll be very direct, i'm used to playing optimized Tier 1-2 Classes and having "just the thing" for pretty much every encounter. This time, its someone else's turn to do so, or at least, try to.

Let just say, after a while, my friends realized that me playing a caster or something like Factotum gave me a bit too much shine compared to most other players :P So i'm banned from anything with a "Caster Level" for this game.

So, i know how totally gimped melee is compared to casters, thats why i want to at least be able to shine in one area of expertise, whacking stuff really hard.

I know i won't be able to match a good Blaster Caster but i want to get as close as possible to it. So here;

Swordsage seem like something i'd like to play, putting my previous constraints aside can a Swordsage with 50 ft fly speed(Just mentioning because alot of maneuver i seen seem to work with land movement) outshine a Rogue in term of damage/coolness? I find full sneak + craven + other goodies on every attack quite hard to beat.

I'm not hellbent on any class, is there a class that doesnt have a "Spell Caster Level" that can still shine bright?

In term of killing stuff, of course :P Skill check is just secondary.

[limejuicepowder]

Swordsage sounds like exactly like your man. They have a large selection of maneuvers, 6 skill points, and useful class abilities. I would definitely recommend them if you are still going for the sneaky, ninja-y melee fighter.

HOWEVER -

It sounds like your not really going for the ninja anymore, and just want a beatstick. In that case, warblade is the way to go. Swordsage is overall weaker than the other 2 ToB classes for a couple of reason: more MAD, medium BaB, lower HD, and generally weaker schools (iron heart, white raven, and diamond mind are probably the 3 best schools, and warblades get all three).

I would doubly recommend the warblade if no one else in the party is playing a tough guy. Swordsages are pure striker for the most part; warblades can take a serious beating on top of their superior damage abilities.

[Virosa]

I dont mind sneaky-ish, i like it. I'm just saying i'm open minded.

I'm just not aware of any class/build that rival Sneak/Sudden's damage.

CA Ninja have that damage + decent skills. Thats all.

Playing something in the ToB would be a novelty in my group and thats not something i'd hate. When i voiced my doupt for rogue or ninja to my DM as front line fighter, he raised the concern that a ellusive character isint exactly the missing piece he was hoping i'd fill anyways. He was hoping i'd play something more awe and respect inspiring, thats why he gave my character Angel-like wings for cheap.

Being able to take a beating is always a plus, my usual play-style has been strike hard, dont get hit.

If Warblade or Swordsage can be a rival at some point to a lvl 10 rogue or ninja hitting for like 28d6+60 every round, i'm interested in learning more.

[Piggy Knowles]

I came up with a neat trick involving the ninja. Check out Jef Costello in my sig.

Basically, the ninja has one of the only abilities in all of 3.5 that allows you to attack someone while ethereal.

This is obviously meant to go alongside Ghost Step (ethereal), but that's inefficient. It requires a lot of ki uses and multiple actions, and only lasts for a round.

Instead, take the Shoulders chakra bind of the totemist's Phase Cloak. This turns you ethereal as long as you are moving, all day, every day. Combine that with Flyby Attack, which lets you take a standard action at any point during the move (during - note that this is different from things like Spring Attack and Ride-by Attack, which imply that you pause in between two movements).

So now you can remain ethereal (not just incorporeal - as an ethereal character you are completely invulnerable to a LOT of effects, can freely move underground or through walls or ceilings, are invisible and undetectable by scent, blindsight and more, etc.), and still attack. Enduring Ki ensures that ghost strike lasts two rounds instead of one, so you don't need to spend a move action every round to keep it up.

To make things better, pick up Mindsight (the Shedu Crown's crown bind can qualify you), so that you can track your enemies while underground, in different rooms, etc. Also, pick up a reach weapon. Phase Cloak turns your equipment ethereal as well, so you can remain in another room and use your reach weapon to strike through a wall or ceiling or what not, without even entering the same room. The only downside is that creatures you can sense via Mindsight but can't actually see still have concealment, and hence are immune to your sudden strike. So, you'll need either a way to see them (clairvoyance, for instance) or a way of negating their concealment (Jef Costello used Shafowblade's Unerring Strike to accomplish this).

Even something as simple as a ninja 18/totemist 2 with Open Lesser Chakra can pull this off, or you can go for Jef's build of ninja 8/totemist 1/cleric 1/shadowblade 10, or ninja 11/totemist 9, or any number of other combinations...

[Virosa]

I came up with a neat trick involving the ninja. Check out Jef Costello in my sig...

Yeah, thanks. I actually did a Ninja build and killed some stuff with it, but DM said it was so cheesy he didnt give me any XP both time i pulled it off. Of course its a different DM now but its still a sour memory to me.

Maybe thats why the didn't really want me playing a Ninja this time... as he was a player back then.

Oh well, anyways.

I'll be waiting for input on my previous post for now.

[DMVerdandi]

I dont mind sneaky-ish, i like it. I'm just saying i'm open minded.

I'm just not aware of any class/build that rival Sneak/Sudden's damage.

CA Ninja have that damage + decent skills. Thats all.

Playing something in the ToB would be a novelty in my group and thats not something i'd hate. When i voiced my doupt for rogue or ninja to my DM as front line fighter, he raised the concern that a ellusive character isint exactly the missing piece he was hoping i'd fill anyways. He was hoping i'd play something more awe and respect inspiring, thats why he gave my character Angel-like wings for cheap.

Being able to take a beating is always a plus, my usual play-style has been strike hard, dont get hit.

If Warblade or Swordsage can be a rival at some point to a lvl 10 rogue or ninja hitting for like 28d6+60 every round, i'm interested in learning more.

Well, here is the thing, They don't put out that that many damage dice per level, but at the same time, sneak attack hardly does. First it's got to be short ranged, then you have to qualify by denying dexterity, then you actually have to hit. Oh my god. Just not enough.

If sneak attacking is what you really want to do as a feature, then your build is all F'd up. Especially if you want to do it as a melee combatant.

Instead, take the Spirit Lion totem Ferocity Barbarian 2//Sneak attack Thug 18.
Use your feats to pick up sapphire nightmare blade from TOB.
Now your BAB is high enough to actually hit, your hp is high enough to tank, your skills are better, and you can pounce.

And that's just for sneak attack damage.
However, a pure damage build is just atrocious in the grand scheme of things, especially one that relies on precision damage.


TOB or a Psychic Warrior would just be so much more interesting and fulfilling.
Do they do less damage? They can without optimization, but they have so many more options that it just makes them more fun to play.
Also, Duskblade can put out some serious damage.

SLT Barbarian2//Duskblade 18 is RIDICULOUS.

All in all, whatever you do as a melee fighter, Get pounce.
Only a fool would turn it down.

[kulosle]

You know what, at this point i would just play a charger fighter. Take the variants so that you can still do the skill aspects that your team is missing and just charge. It's really strong. There is a charger guide somewhere i believe. If i find it i'll post it.

[Virosa]

Ok, i'm pretty much done, thanks for all the replies.

The only last thing is; is there a way to get more than first round pounce (read: charge + full round, not move + full round) other than 1 level in Barb?

Because unless i missed something, that mean 10% xp penalty since i'd have 2 non PRC non favored classes.

[Divide by Zero]

Ok, i'm pretty much done, thanks for all the replies.

The only last thing is; is there a way to get more than first round pounce (read: charge + full round, not move + full round) other than 1 level in Barb?

Because unless i missed something, that mean 10% xp penalty since i'd have 2 non PRC non favored classes.

Ask your DM if you can ignore multiclassing penalties, we have a whole thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279583) on why they're stupid.

[Boci]

Ok, i'm pretty much done, thanks for all the replies.

The only last thing is; is there a way to get more than first round pounce (read: charge + full round, not move + full round) other than 1 level in Barb?

Because unless i missed something, that mean 10% xp penalty since i'd have 2 non PRC non favored classes.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358

As for the multiclass XP penalty, yeah seems so, although many groups don't use it, so you could check with your DM about that.

[bobthe6th]

Sudden leap, swift action jump check. manuver, level 1, pick it up as a martial study.