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View Full Version : [3.5e] A Novices Attempt At A 0 LA Lesser Succubus Race [Peach]



Celesyne
2013-04-14, 02:06 AM
I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to find a decent homebrewed Succubus race that could be used in a 3.5e game. After many a moon of searching and coming up empty handed, I've decided to try and create a Lesser version of a Succubus, focusing on their ability to change form and drain over flight and the myriad of other demonic abilities. Since all the wonderful folk here in the Playground are nice and easy on a newbie, seeing as this is my first shot at homebrewing something, I would like your opinions/ideas on this.


Lesser Succubus

Racial Traits


+2 Charisma, −2 Constitution, −2 Strength



Monstrous Humanoid: (Demonkin, Tanar'ri)



Medium: Succubi gain no advantages or disadvantages due to size.



Succubus's base land speed is 30 feet.



+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects



Energy Drain (Su): Once per encounter, a succubus may drain some life-force from a target via a kiss. As a touch attack the kiss deals 1d6 points of negative energy damage plus 1d6 per 3 HD the succubus possesses (DC 10+Cha Mod for half). It also heals the succubus for an amount equal to the damage done.


Change Shape (Su): At first level, a succubus has the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a succubus’s facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A succubus can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until he changes shape again. A succubus' altered shape lasts indefinitely, even in death. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a succubus receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.


Darkvision up to 60 ft.


Automatic Languages: Common, Abyssal. Bonus Languages: Any non-secret language (such as Druidic).


Favored Class: Warlock


A Lesser Incubus uses the same statistics and feat(s) as a Lesser Succubus




Demonkin subtype:

If a creature possesses the Demonkin subtype, it has a strong connection to Demons which means that spells, effects, powers, and abilities that affect or target Demons also affects it.

The subtype qualifies a creature to use magic items normally only usable by
Demons and qualifies the creature to take feats that have "Demon" as a prerequiste. The Demonkin subtype also makes creatures subject to harmful effects that affect Demons.

The Demonkin subtype does not confer the Demon type or any traits associated with that type.

Demons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the Demonkin subtype.

Demon subtype: Demonkin possess a demonic subtype, such as Tanar'ri, indicative of their demonic heritage. Demonkin do not gain any abilities that the subtype would normally grant, but they still possess the subtype for any and all other purposes.




A Nice feat, Courtesy of Sgt. Cookie!

Succubus Wings
Prerequisites: Lesser Succubus, 6HD
Benefit: Your Demonic heratige manifests itself as a pair of bat-like wings grow from your back. Your wings grant you a fly speed (50ft, average manuverability). You can also use them to glide, 20ft of forward movement for every 5ft of descent.

You can only fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to your constitution modifier, minimum of one round, but you can glide between rounds to remain aloft for longer. You cannot fly for more than 10 minuites per day.

At 12hd flying takes no more effort thank walking, meaning a Lesser Succubus may fly without limit.


Another feat from D_Man_7733, with a little balancing by Sgt. Cookie!

Succubus Charm
Prerequesite: Lesser succubus, 6HD
Benefit: Once per day a lesser succubus may cast charm person as a Spell-like ability with a DC equal to 10 + HD + Cha Mod. As long as the target is within visual range of the succubus, charm person has a maximum duration of 24 hours.

At 10HD and every 4HD afterwards, the lesser succubus may use charm person one additional time per day.

eftexar
2013-04-14, 02:20 AM
Energy drain should either have a minimum damage clause or it should deal 1d6 damage +1d6 damage per 3 levels.

I don't know about LA much, but I do know that mental ability scores are considered more important than physical because of spellcasting. As such, if you plan to keep it, the physical attributes need to have higher penalties than the bonus to mental attributes.

I would just drop the charisma score bonus and add a new ability that grants a bonus to charisma ability checks and charisma-based skill checks instead. It would keep the bonuses to social interaction without the boost to spellcasting.


edit:

And taking cue from the dwarf it could probably use a couple of minor abilities to keep it in line with the other races. Here a couple the dwarf and elf had, some modified to fit the flavor, for ideas:
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects
+1 racial bonus to attack rolls against celestials
+2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects

Maybe for the charisma:
+2 bonus to charisma-based skill checks
+2 bonus to charisma ability checks


edit 2:
The note on reproduction should probably state that the succubus can birth a child with any humanoid race and what the offspring are. For example, maybe all female born are succubi and males are half fiends, fiend-touched, tieflings or something.


edit 3:
If you wanted to you could throw in a few feats with BaB or HD requirements to allow the lesser succubi to improve her abilities over time and become more like her more powerful brethren. Like gaining a feat that lets her glide, the next in line lets her fly, etc.

Celesyne
2013-04-14, 04:10 AM
Energy drain should either have a minimum damage clause or it should deal 1d6 damage +1d6 damage per 3 levels.

I don't know about LA much, but I do know that mental ability scores are considered more important than physical because of spellcasting. As such, if you plan to keep it, the physical attributes need to have higher penalties than the bonus to mental attributes.

I would just drop the charisma score bonus and add a new ability that grants a bonus to charisma ability checks and charisma-based skill checks instead. It would keep the bonuses to social interaction without the boost to spellcasting.


Ok, I think I get that... Would changing it to a +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution be more in line?

The intention was in fact, 1d6 +1d6 per 3 class levels, I'll get that little clarification added in.

eftexar
2013-04-14, 03:27 PM
That's probably more in line with the other races, but that's not the point I was getting at. Most no LA races don't offer mental abilities bonuses, at least not core, though they often offer penalties to them.
Because mental ability stats are more valued something like this is more called for: +2 charisma, -2 constitution, -2 strength.
And then toss in some minor bonuses like the examples listed above to make up for the penalties in a different way. And maybe make energy drain once per encounter so it's actually useful.

Celesyne
2013-04-14, 04:06 PM
Looking at some of the races, I see what you mean... Ok, Altered it to an over all -4 +2, and tacked on a minor boost. The feats idea I like, and will give some thought to... as soon as I can decide what would be good levels/balancing factors for them.

ngilop
2013-04-14, 04:26 PM
I think this is a great!

this has inspired me to make some kind of temptress class Im not really sure why but i though to myslef. warlock really don't feel right as a favored lcasss but really bard don't strike me as too fitting either.. too bad there isn;t a temptress or courtesean class.. oh wait.. time for homebrew land!!!

Celesyne
2013-04-14, 04:28 PM
Bard was my first choice.. but seeing it didn't fit the demonic ancestry I scrapped it. leaving me with only a couple of charisma based choices. Either Sorcerer, Warlock or Beguiler... and I'm still very tempted to go with beguiler for flavor reasonings.

inuyasha
2013-04-14, 04:51 PM
this is cool ;) I think its either a high LA 0 or a weak LA 1 :)

Celesyne
2013-04-14, 05:00 PM
Thank you, thank you. I'm tryin to get this sorted out for a succubus character I'd like to try in a game sometime. I'm not very keen on LA races or monster classes... thus my trying to pare this down to an acceptable 0 LA Race. Currently trying to figure out feats for gliding and flight and what suitable prereq's would be.

ngilop
2013-04-14, 05:03 PM
crap.. Conan d20 already has a temptress class..

well there goes my idea.. oh well

inuyasha
2013-04-14, 05:06 PM
whoa whoa whoa, who says you cant make a temptress class?? I mean, WoTC made the fighter, and have you seen how many different fighters have been made??? You can make a temptress if you want to lol!

Sgt. Cookie
2013-04-14, 05:08 PM
I must say, this looks very nice, going in the bookmarks folder.

The racial features look OK, nothing overpowering.

The lack of wings is a little suprising. Perhaps add the following feat:

Succubus Wings
Prerequisites: Lesser Succubus, 6HD
Benefit: Your Demonic heratige manifests itself as a pair of bat-like wings grow from your back. Your wings grant you a fly speed (50ft, average manuverability). You can also use them to glide, 20ft of forward movement for every 5ft of descent.

You can only fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to your constitution modifier, minimum of one round, but you can glide between rounds to remain aloft for longer. You cannot fly for more than 10 minuites per day.


Also, I don't see any reason that you cannot have Lesser Incubi, regular Incubi do exist within 3rd edition lore.

Other than that, this looks really rather nice.

Celesyne
2013-04-14, 05:11 PM
I must say, this looks very nice, going in the bookmarks folder.

The racial features look OK, nothing overpowering.

The lack of wings is a little suprising. Perhaps add the following feat:

Succubus Wings
Prerequisites: Lesser Succubus, 6HD
Benefit: Your Demonic heratige manifests itself as a pair of bat-like wings grow from your back. Your wings grant you a fly speed (50ft, average manuverability). You can also use them to glide, 20ft of forward movement for every 5ft of descent.

You can only fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to your constitution modifier, minimum of one round, but you can glide between rounds to remain aloft for longer. You cannot fly for more than 10 minuites per day.


Also, I don't see any reason that you cannot have Lesser Incubi, regular Incubi do exist within 3rd edition lore.

Other than that, this looks really rather nice.

Very true... I do suppose you could just invert the gender and use it as a Lesser Incubus as well. And that feat is... very nice... Do you mind if I use it in the OP, with credit to you of course :smallbiggrin:

Sgt. Cookie
2013-04-14, 05:23 PM
Personaly, I'd get rid of Parasitic Reproduction and add: "A Lesser Incubus uses the same statistics and feat(s) as a Lesser Succubus"

On the subject of feats, yes you can use it. It's why I posted it. Just be sure to add at the end "At 12hd flying takes no more effort thank walking, meaning a Lesser Succubus may fly without limit.".

Celesyne
2013-04-14, 05:55 PM
Personaly, I'd get rid of Parasitic Reproduction and add: "A Lesser Incubus uses the same statistics and feat(s) as a Lesser Succubus"

On the subject of feats, yes you can use it. It's why I posted it. Just be sure to add at the end "At 12hd flying takes no more effort thank walking, meaning a Lesser Succubus may fly without limit.".

Very much agreed. I kinda had the blinders on as Succubus was what I wanted and didn't think about transposing for either gender. So, edited, feat added and attributed to you good sir! Any more criticisms, ideas, or fun stuff is very welcome!

Hadrian_Emrys
2013-04-14, 05:56 PM
Personally, I'd rename the feat "The Rite of the Red Bull"...

-but I agree with it and the 12hd addition anyway.

AugustNights
2013-04-14, 06:24 PM
The Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) shows precedent for an LA 0 Race that provides a mental ability bonus, without a negative ability bonus total.
Argument may be made that a negative to Constitution merrits such a thing, or that it must be two -2s to Physical Abilities a +2 to a Mental Ability, and +2 to a Physical Ability.
Charisma is nice, for some builds, but it's often a dump stat. I don't know if a +2 to Charisma merits a -2 to *two* other Ability Scores.

Celesyne
2013-04-14, 06:32 PM
As i said... this is a first attempt at a homebrew for me.. so I'm not really sure what constitutes a 0 LA race.. which is why I came wonderful folks.

D_Man_7733
2013-04-14, 06:54 PM
This looks really interesting, I can't wait to get a chance to try it out as an NPC or Player. Good going so far, but more feats may be in order.

Assuming 6HD is the average point where a lesser succubus enters majority, something like this may be an idea:

Succubus Charm
Prerequesite: Lesser succubus, 6HD
Benefit: Once per day a lesser succubus may cast charm person as a supernatural ability with a DC equal to 10 + HD + Cha Mod. As long as the target is within visual range of the succubus, charm person cannot time out.

At 10HD and every 4HD afterwards, the lesser succubus may use charm person one additional time per day.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, I don't have my rulebook, but something to simulate the succubus natural charm ability would be useful. (looking at it, it seems a tad powerful though, so you might want to change it a bit)

ngilop
2013-04-14, 07:02 PM
well inuyasha, the d20 conan is basically what i wanted in a class maybe cuz it was in theback of my mind somewhere LOLOL.

and the rason for the plethora of fighters out ther eis WoTC did a craptacualr job of making fighter worht it.

I think the pentalty to other scores willw ork, especially becuase STR is completely overrated

but to blaance with these cool feats abotu sucubus charm and sucubus wng etc,

just flight alone is a HUGE game changer.

D_Man_7733
2013-04-14, 07:14 PM
On another note, the flight may want to be increased to "Fly a number of rounds equal to your constitution modifier + 1" to substitute for the fact that as a lesser succubus you lose out on constitution and the natural wings would probably accomodate that. (Or maybe have HD play a part... most Cha based classes don't require too high CON)

Celesyne
2013-04-14, 08:26 PM
This looks really interesting, I can't wait to get a chance to try it out as an NPC or Player. Good going so far, but more feats may be in order.

Assuming 6HD is the average point where a lesser succubus enters majority, something like this may be an idea:

Succubus Charm
Prerequesite: Lesser succubus, 6HD
Benefit: Once per day a lesser succubus may cast charm person as a supernatural ability with a DC equal to 10 + HD + Cha Mod. As long as the target is within visual range of the succubus, charm person cannot time out.

At 10HD and every 4HD afterwards, the lesser succubus may use charm person one additional time per day.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, I don't have my rulebook, but something to simulate the succubus natural charm ability would be useful. (looking at it, it seems a tad powerful though, so you might want to change it a bit)


It's not bad.. but again... the charm and summoning abilities of the regular succubus are kinda what make it really powerful on it's own. It would be hard in my novice-like mind to balance that into a feat.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-04-15, 06:47 AM
This is more aesthetic than anything else, but I think the Lesser Incubus notation would stand out more if it were placed below the Favoured Class notation and given it's own bolded heading. As it stands I had to look over it twice before I saw the Lesser Incubus thing.




Succubus Charm
Prerequesite: Lesser succubus, 6HD
Benefit: Once per day a lesser succubus may cast charm person as a supernatural ability with a DC equal to 10 + HD + Cha Mod. As long as the target is within visual range of the succubus, charm person cannot time out.

At 10HD and every 4HD afterwards, the lesser succubus may use charm person one additional time per day.


Hm. Some quick changes would be to make it a Spell-like ability and give it a maximum 24 hour duration. That would be more balanced.



Looking over again, having Demon be a subtype doesn't really work. I'd give it something like this:

Monstrous Humanoid (Demonkin, Tanar'ri)


Demonkin subtype:

If a creature possesses the Demonkin subtype, it has a strong connection to Demons which means that spells, effects, powers, and abilities that affect or target Demons also affects it.

The subtype qualifies a creature to use magic items normally only usable by
Demons and qualifies the creature to take feats that have "Demon" as a prerequiste. The Demonkin subtype also makes creatures subject to harmful effects that affect Demons.

The Demonkin subtype does not confer the Demon type or any traits associated with that type.

Demons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the Demonkin subtype.

Demon subtype: Demonkin possess a demonic subtype, such as Tanar'ri, indicative of their demonic heritage. Demonkin do not gain any abilities that the subtype would normally grant, but they still possess the subtype for any and all other purposes.

Just to Browse
2013-04-15, 03:07 PM
This race could actually use some buffs. It's a good sorcerer race with Charisma synergy, but no one would use that kiss attack because it involves a grapple check and succubi have both a penalty to strength and constitution, and the end result doesn't even deal more damage than a kelgore's fire bolt until level 15 (eek).

The kiss should just be a touch attack, upgradeable with a feat to negative levels. Then someone might use it at low levels, if they ran out of color sprays and magic missiles. The damage could also use an upgrade.

Celesyne
2013-04-15, 04:58 PM
This is more aesthetic than anything else, but I think the Lesser Incubus notation would stand out more if it were placed below the Favoured Class notation and given it's own bolded heading. As it stands I had to look over it twice before I saw the Lesser Incubus thing.




Hm. Some quick changes would be to make it a Spell-like ability and give it a maximum 24 hour duration. That would be more balanced.



Looking over again, having Demon be a subtype doesn't really work. I'd give it something like this:

Monstrous Humanoid (Demonkin, Tanar'ri)


Demonkin subtype:

If a creature possesses the Demonkin subtype, it has a strong connection to Demons which means that spells, effects, powers, and abilities that affect or target Demons also affects it.

The subtype qualifies a creature to use magic items normally only usable by
Demons and qualifies the creature to take feats that have "Demon" as a prerequiste. The Demonkin subtype also makes creatures subject to harmful effects that affect Demons.

The Demonkin subtype does not confer the Demon type or any traits associated with that type.

Demons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the Demonkin subtype.

Demon subtype: Demonkin possess a demonic subtype, such as Tanar'ri, indicative of their demonic heritage. Demonkin do not gain any abilities that the subtype would normally grant, but they still possess the subtype for any and all other purposes.

Much agreed on all accounts. Edited, altered and saved. The feat with those changes I think also fits.. so I've added it as well.


This race could actually use some buffs. It's a good sorcerer race with Charisma synergy, but no one would use that kiss attack because it involves a grapple check and succubi have both a penalty to strength and constitution, and the end result doesn't even deal more damage than a kelgore's fire bolt until level 15 (eek).

The kiss should just be a touch attack, upgradeable with a feat to negative levels. Then someone might use it at low levels, if they ran out of color sprays and magic missiles. The damage could also use an upgrade.

A point you do have my good sir, altered to a touch attack. The damage however I'm concerned about. As a potential 0 LA class I didn't want the damage to be outrageous. I'm not sure how I could increase it without going over the edge.

A feat for changing it to negative levels is a nice idea... will work on that soon as I decide what level that would be safe to add in.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-04-15, 05:33 PM
You need to add the notation about the Demonkin subtype, as it doesn't exist in offical materal.

Celesyne
2013-04-15, 05:51 PM
You need to add the notation about the Demonkin subtype, as it doesn't exist in offical materal.

Note added... apparently i overlooked the spoiler, thanks for correcting me once again.

Just to Browse
2013-04-15, 05:53 PM
The damage can use a buff without being outrageous, but it depends how strong of an LA 0 race you want this be. Races have their own tiers--(1) is humans, whatever those , lesser aasimar, and other races that are outstanding picks for a lot of roles, (2) is for dwarves, changelings, shifters, and races that function effectively but don't rock quite as hard, and (3) is for half-orcs, half-elves, and goblins that just don't get any real interesting or effective abilities.

What you have here is a Tier 2 race. It's tier 2 because it's got +Cha with charisma synergy and a reliable fallback for low levels that never runs out (and heals undead I've just realized) despite not being the most viable weapon in a fight. At high levels, however, the disguise ability gets caught up to by various spell effects, and the damage totally goes to crap, so what you're left with is a +Cha bonus at the expense of Str and Con. If you up the kiss to an attack action and increase the damage to something like 1d6 per 2 HD, this will be on par with humans, because it's still squishy but it can buff itself as a caster and the payoff for landing a blow is worth the risk.

LordErebus12
2013-04-15, 05:54 PM
it would be nice to play this with this class. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276535)

Celesyne
2013-04-15, 06:44 PM
My Attempt at allowing the ability to grant negative levels... and is probably a ways off base.... any ideas?


Enervating Kiss
Prerequesite: Lesser succubus, 12HD
Benefit: At 12 HD a Lesser Succubus has finally begun to realize the power of it's demonic heritage. It's Energy Drain ability gains a powerful increase in ability. Once per encounter as a touch attack, the succubus may tear at the very soul of the target. This bestows 1d4+1 per 3 HD of negative levels to the target (DC10+HD+Cha Mod) healing the succubus for 1d12 per negative level bestowed. On a Successful saving throw the target still takes Negative energy damage, as per the unupgraded ability.

Normal: Energy Drain (Su): Once per encounter, a succubus may drain some life-force from a target via a kiss. As a touch attack the kiss deals 1d6 points of negative energy damage plus 1d6 per 3 HD the succubus possesses (DC 10+Cha Mod for half). It also heals the succubus for an amount equal to the damage done.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-04-15, 07:08 PM
Note added... apparently i overlooked the spoiler, thanks for correcting me once again.

'Tis perfectly alright, it's what we folks here in the homebrew section do. We take a an uncut diamond that is fresh homebrew, bash it against a wall a few times, light it on fire, crush it with a sledge hammer and then apply furniture polish to the result.


Looking over your feat:

First off, minor semantics critique, Succubus is always a "she". It's term similar to "Bitch" or "Doe".

Secondly WAY, WAY, WAY too many negative levels. It should only ever cause one, period. At the level you can get it, your dealing 4d4+4 negative levels, average of 14 negative levels, a maximum of 20. Seriously, only one negative level, period.

Secondly, Negative Levels caused in similar manners grant 5 temporary hp. Rather than healing alreafy lost hp.

Having this ability be a touch attack though is perfectly fine, as it's a once per encounter ability.

Celesyne
2013-04-15, 07:17 PM
Hmm... I phrased that poorly. the intention was for it to only be a 1d4 at any time, with the +1 to be scaling, though yes, I can see the issue. I'd like to not... remove the healing that the original ability gave her, but at the same timei'm not sure what to do.

Sgt. Cookie
2013-04-15, 07:29 PM
Hmm... I phrased that poorly. the intention was for it to only be a 1d4 at any time, with the +1 to be scaling, though yes, I can see the issue. I'd like to not... remove the healing that the original ability gave her, but at the same timei'm not sure what to do.

1d4 on it's own is more than enough, I reckon. I wouldn't add the scaling thing, as at high levels you are.still able to wipe out more than half an opponents HD.

To keep the healing, just add a note like "The target is also affected by her Energy Drain ability" or something along those lines and you're good to go.

Celesyne
2013-04-15, 09:24 PM
1d4 on it's own is more than enough, I reckon. I wouldn't add the scaling thing, as at high levels you are.still able to wipe out more than half an opponents HD.

To keep the healing, just add a note like "The target is also affected by her Energy Drain ability" or something along those lines and you're good to go.



Enervating Kiss
Prerequesite: Lesser succubus, 12HD
Benefit: At 12 HD a Lesser Succubus has finally begun to realize the power of it's demonic heritage. It's Energy Drain ability gains a powerful increase in ability. Once per encounter as a touch attack, the succubus may tear at the very soul of the target. This bestows 1d4 negative levels to the target (DC10+HD+Cha Mod, Negates) The target is also affected by her Energy Drain ability.

Normal: Energy Drain (Su): Once per encounter, a succubus may drain some life-force from a target via a kiss. As a touch attack the kiss deals 1d6 points of negative energy damage plus 1d6 per 3 HD the succubus possesses (DC 10+Cha Mod for half). It also heals the succubus for an amount equal to the damage done.



So, more along those lines?

LordErebus12
2013-04-15, 10:35 PM
Delicious Kiss (Su):
A succubi may use this ability when kissing a victim, or during any other act of passion. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubi must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity. The victim is dazed for 1 round, and the succubi is treated as though she has just consumed a good meal. The victim feels as though the experience was highly pleasurable, but is not under any supernatural compulsion to allow another kiss.


how about this? makes it more balanced.

Just to Browse
2013-04-15, 10:35 PM
Well, while 20HD is ridiculous, 1 negative level per 3 HD is actually pretty reasonable for something that requires the succubus to walk into melee range. Enervation exists 5 levels before level 12, and it's an RTA that doesn't offer a save.

I'd honestly make this a big feat chain:
3HD: Make the ability at-will.
6HD: Change from damage to a negative level (healing her for the same)
9HD: Up it to 1d4 negative levels.
12HD: Make it an attack action.