What are "tiers?"

[karkus]

Whenever I come to these forums, it seems like you guys are all talking about "tiers," and how certain classes are put into these tiers, ranked by their usefulness. Can one of you playgrounders explain tiers to me?

[Twilightwyrm]

Check with Google.

[huttj509]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559

Curse the lack of search function after revamp. Took me some google-fu to find the thread, having already known it was there. Though just googling "3.5 tier" got close.

[Bovine Colonel]

JaronK's Tier List for Classes (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0) and Why each class is in its tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0).

[Frozen_Feet]

There are multiple tier systems for D&D 3.5 that try to rank different classes based on their funtionality. The one most commonly referenced here is the system deviced by JaronK. That system considers both versatility and raw power.

Tier 5 can only do few things, and doesn't fare well in even them. Example would be the Fighter, that can only fight, but is outclassed or equaled by most other classes.

Tier 4 can only do few things, but at least does them competently. Example would be the Barbarian, who can pretty much just smash face, but at least does so fairly well.

Tier 3 excells in at least one thing, and can hold its ground in multiple fields. Example would be the Bard, the archetypal "jack of all trades" class, who has the social skills mastered, but can also branch into combat, thievery, magic etc. based on his desires.

Tier 2 is strong enough to break the game, but only in a handful of manners. Example would be the Sorcerer, who gets to pick spells from the most powerful list in the game, but only ever knows a limited number.

Tier 1 can essentially break the game in any field and excells in everything. Example would be the Wizard, who theoretically has no limitations of spells known, allowing him to achieve pretty much anything in time.

[Karnith]

There are also a few Tier 6 classes, who are incompetent in their area of expertise or have no expertise at all. The Complete Warrior Samurai is an example of the former, while the Commoner (an NPC class) is an example of the latter.

It's also important to note that each tier covers a fairly wide spread of capabilities. The Complete Warrior Samurai and the NPC Warrior class are both tier 6, for example, even though the Samurai is basically a Warrior with extra features (and commoner is also tier 6, even though it's weaker than either).

[Dust]

The reason we consider this important basically boils down to party balance. By making sure most of the characters in a party are within one to two tiers of each other, you're less likely to have folks completely overshadowed and feeling like they can't contribute.

[karkus]

Thanks guys! :smallsmile:

[FreakyCheeseMan]

...did a thread discussing Tiers just resolve without a single argument?

...it cannot be! :smallbiggrin:

[Norin]

MONK HAS NO DEAD LEVELS! IT'S TIER 3 AT LEAST! :smallfurious:

Sorry, that was my tourettes kicking in.
:smalltongue:

[Karnith]

MONK HAS NO DEAD LEVELS! IT'S TIER 3 AT LEAST! :smallfurious:

Sorry, that was my tourettes kicking in.
:smalltongue:
Shhh! We resolved this thread, and you might start something in it!

[Razanir]

How I describe them:
Tier 1. Capable of destroying the world several times and several different ways all before lunch.
Tier 2. (Taken from the brilliantgameologists thread) If tier 1 classes are countries with 10000 nukes, these guys have maybe 10 nukes. Still potentially world-shattering, but not in nearly so many ways
Tier 3. Awesome at one thing, still good in other situations
Tier 4. Awesome at one thing, not so helpful in other situations
Tier 5. Decent at what they do, but certainly not the best
Tier 6. Other people do your job better than you... without even trying

[Bakeru]

Tier 1. Capable of destroying the world several times and several different ways all before lunch.That's a gross exaggeration.
They need at least several minutes of meditation, and usually also eight hours of uninterrupted rest!

[navar100]

Keep this in mind:

The Tier System is NOT a value judgement system. Just because a particular class is in a particular tier doesn't make it a terrible class to play. You are not playing wrong by choosing to play a class. Your group is not playing wrong just because two players playing two classes more than two tiers apart. The Tier system recommends be within two tiers, but that is not set in stone, the only way to play.

The Tier System does NOT say Tier 1 & 2 are horribly broken, you're a munchkin for playing them, you only care about power.

The Tier System does NOT say Tier 4 & 5 are terrible classes you shouldn't play. They suck. You're a terrible player choosing to play one, get out of the game.

The Tier System does NOT say Tier 3 is the only way to play the game, the only classes that work, the only way a true good player should even think about using.

The Tier System does NOT say 3E is a horrible game, play something else instead.

The Truenamer class doesn't work because its own rules prevent it from working. It's why it's in Tier 6, but this is not a cumulative property. Being in Tier 6 is not why it doesn't work. It doesn't work on its own merits, not the existence of the Tier System.

[Lord Haart]

Addendum: the tier system is only relevant assuming a similar level of optimisation. To be more precise, a high level of optimisation, since it's also easier to make absolutely useless, weak and inept even in staying alive wizard than a similar fighter. Optimisation coefficient bears much bigger influence on power, versatility and utility of a given character than his class (and of course, most optimized melee builds multiclass like vegetarian picking olives out of meat salad, making a good tier-3 or even tier-2 material out of low-tiered components, so tier system, which doesn't account for multiclassing and prestiges, is also highly irrelevant in that matter).

[Bovine Colonel]

Addendum: the tier system is only relevant assuming a similar level of optimisation. To be more precise, a high level of optimisation, since it's also easier to make absolutely useless, weak and inept even in staying alive wizard than a similar fighter. Optimisation coefficient bears much bigger influence on power, versatility and utility of a given character than his class (and of course, most optimized melee builds multiclass like vegetarian picking olives out of meat salad, making a good tier-3 or even tier-2 material out of low-tiered components, so tier system, which doesn't account for multiclassing and prestiges, is also highly irrelevant in that matter).

Keep in mind that even if you can deal fifty thousand damage in a swift action, if that's your only shtick you're still a Tier 4.

[Kazyan]

The Truenamer class doesn't work because its own rules prevent it from working. It's why it's in Tier 6, but this is not a cumulative property. Being in Tier 6 is not why it doesn't work. It doesn't work on its own merits, not the existence of the Tier System.

Truenamer is generally thought to be tierless, not Tier 6. Due to its dysfunctionality, the power of the class depends bizarrely on optimization and level in a way that the other classes don't. A single number doesn't describe it well.

[eggynack]

The Truenamer class doesn't work because its own rules prevent it from working. It's why it's in Tier 6, but this is not a cumulative property. Being in Tier 6 is not why it doesn't work. It doesn't work on its own merits, not the existence of the Tier System.
Actually, the truenamer isn't on the tier list at all. If they were tier 6, that would be an easy to understand thing, like the commoner or the aristocrat. Truenamers are a more complicated thing though. The reason they can't fit anywhere on the tier list is because their optimization floor and their optimization ceiling are very far apart. At average levels of optimization, the truenamer will act as you have claimed and be at tier 6. This is owing to the fact that without good optimization, they will be fundamentally incapable of using their powers with any consistency. At higher levels of optimization, they have a level of power comparable to that of a warlock. Additionally, the degree to which optimization takes effect is somewhat wonky, so you just kinda shift directly from tier 6 to tier 4 with very little in between. This is especially true because truenamers all essentially take the same powers, so actual character build stuff has little effect. Additionally, the class is broken in lots of ways, which are detailed pretty well in Zaq's truenamer handbook.

It's a common misconception that the primary reason for them existing outside of the tier system is because they break the game at level 20 with the ability to cast gate. This is made clear due to the fact that healers can cast gate starting at level 17, and sit comfortably at tier 5. An extreme shift in tier taking place at super high levels isn't enough to push a character to a higher tier.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Honestly, from reading over the Truenamer, is seems like they came up with a strong concept (Caster that just has to use skill checks, not limited slots, so they could cast unlimited times per day), and tried to balance it in three ways at once - making the checks so hard that it would always be uncertain, making the "spells" so weak that it would be reasonable to cast them all day long, and making it so you couldn't cast them indefinitely at all.

[catsora]

A tier is a ranking which most classes are placed into depending on their versatility in and out of combat. For example the wizard is tier 1 because it can prepare spells to deal with virtually any situation while Sorcerer is tier 2 because it doesn't have the flexibility of the wizard in terms of changing spells despite using the same list. Fighters on the other hand are tier 5 because they can only really contribute to a party when in combat as they have few skills, skill points and noncombat functions. Barbarians, while also designed for combat are tier 4 because they have more skill points, skills, and are superior combatants.
So each tier is like this,
Tier 1: full casting, prepares spells, extreme versatility.
Tier 2: full casting, rigid spell selection, high versatility if planned well.
Tier 3: half casting, very strong in a few areas or can perform numerous functions.
Tier 4: strong focus in one area or decent in a few situations, probably little to no casting.
Tier 5: performs one function, little to no versatility, no casting ability.
Tier 6: NPC classes.

[eggynack]

Honestly, from reading over the Truenamer, is seems like they came up with a strong concept (Caster that just has to use skill checks, not limited slots, so they could cast unlimited times per day), and tried to balance it in three ways at once - making the checks so hard that it would always be uncertain, making the "spells" so weak that it would be reasonable to cast them all day long, and making it so you couldn't cast them indefinitely at all.
Indeed so. As I noted, the best comparison to a high-op truenamer is a warlock. Compared to the truenamer the warlock only has the weak effects issue. However, truenamers get access to the quite useful quicken utterance. All in all, I'd call them about equal, especially because I think warlock stuff is more useful in general.