What tier would a spirit shaman be?

[thethird]

Since lately we are having a lot of tier discussions what tier do you think would fit a spirit shaman (complete divine)?

I am thinking of tier 2, due to its spellcasting (which is slightly better than that of a druid) but it loses the animal companion and the wildshape of a druid, being much more frail and even if the druid spellcasting is vast it is not as game breaking as that of the wizard or cleric (except some minor offenders).

So, yeah, tier 2? tier 3?

[Waker]

I believe the general consensus was that the Spirit Shaman is T2.

[Karnith]

Spirit Shamans cast off of the druid's spell list, and have access to the entire list and can change what spells they get from day to day, so they really can't be tier 2: they aren't constrained in only being able to perform a limited number of tricks in the way that tier 2s are. They are therefore either (at the bottom of) tier 1, or are tier 3, depending on how you view the power of the druid spell list.

I would say that they are very low tier 1, personally.

[nedz]

We've had several threads debating this and the consensus usually comes out as at the very bottom of Tier 1.

Basically they can change their spell list to solve the issues at hand.

[thethird]

I won't say that they have a spell to solve every problem... The druid spell list isn't that powerful/resourceful.

[Big Fau]

I won't say that they have a spell to solve every problem... The druid spell list isn't that powerful/resourceful.

This is true. The Spirit Shaman is the border between Tier 1 and Tier 2, acting as a yardstick for other classes simply because it's best trick is astounding but crippled by design.

It's still reasonably capable of doing anything the Druid could do with it's spells, but it has to use Wild Cohort to make use of a good number of the Druid's interesting ones.

[nedz]

Druid isn't Tier 1 because of it's outstanding class features, Druid is Tier 1 because of it's spell casting.

[Czarzian]

This is a bit of a tough one to answer honestly. The reason the Druid is T1 isn't exactly because of spell casting, but because of the trifecta that is the Druid. (Wildshape, Animal Companion, in addition to being a full caster) Having access to the Druid spell list isn't exactly the best as opposed to having access to the Cleric or better yet the Wizard spell list.

On the other hand the class isn't as gimped as the alternatives to the Wizard and Cleric (Sorcerer and Favored Soul, respectively) since it can change it's spell load out from day to day. Also I love the flavor of the casting system, but I digress.

The major problem with lumping the Spirit Shaman into T1 is that most of their class abilities focus on spirits (Fey, Elementals and Incorporeal Undead being the main ones) which can leave them far less versatile. They do have some gems for class abilities though. Follow the Guide, Spirit Form, Guide Magic, and Recall Spirit jump out at me. The main advantage I see over a Druid is the fact that they can easily hop into PrCs that advance casting but not Animal Companion and Wildshape that a normal Druid wouldn't give a second glance towards.

All in all I think a ranking at High T2 to Low T1 is a reasonable assessment. Sticking with the source material needed (SRD + CD) they might be a little more High T2, but when we throw in things such as the SpC and things like Wild Cohort they can be considered low T1. I'd personally say that ranking them in T3 is totally out of the question though.

Just my two cents.

[Czarzian]

Druid isn't Tier 1 because of it's outstanding class features, Druid is Tier 1 because of it's spell casting.

This is debatable. Sure it is a FULL CASTER but it is off of the most focused and flavorful of all the core classes. Like I said the Druid id a trifecta and that is why it is T1. It lacks the might and awe of the Wizard spell list and the Cleric, while much more focused with not as many tricks as the Wiz/Sorc spell list, has enough to break games. The only core spell that strikes me as broken on the Druid list is Shapechange. The other power comes from a few spell combos like SNA X+ Animal Growth, and Scry & Die tactics, etc.

[Big Fau]

Druid isn't Tier 1 because of it's outstanding class features, Druid is Tier 1 because of it's spell casting.

From personal experience, the Druid's spell list has a handful of gems that are good in many circumstances but most of it is riddled with situational, underwhelming, and all-around lackluster spells. Playing a Druid means preparing several of the same spell in each spell level's slot, and then converting the excess into Summon Nature's Ally as needed. This becomes most apparent with the Spirit Shaman. While it has unrestricted access to the Druid's list, it lacks the class features that the Druid's spells are designed around (several of the Druid's really good spells involve your animal companion or your Wild Shape ability, neither of which the Spirit Shaman has).

The Spirit Shaman has versatility thanks to the Druid's spell list, but that versatility is far more restrictive than the Cleric's spells.

[thethird]

Druid isn't Tier 1 because of it's outstanding class features, Druid is Tier 1 because of it's spell casting.

Warmage also cast 9 level spells, I don't really get what you are trying to say.


All in all I think a ranking at High T2 to Low T1 is a reasonable assessment. Sticking with the source material needed (SRD + CD) they might be a little more High T2, but when we throw in things such as the SpC and things like Wild Cohort they can be considered low T1. I'd personally say that ranking them in T3 is totally out of the question though.

Just my two cents.

My main concern is that T2 is compromised of classes with a limit on spellcasting (read not much versatility) but good lists. Psions, Favored Souls and Sorcerers have access to great lists with great tricks. While tier 3 is an adaptable class that can contribute to a lot of situations due to its versatility.

The Spirit Shaman has access to the druid list. But the druid list isn't so great without wildshape or an animal companion, most good druid spells focus on buffing. So I wouldn't say that there are a lot of gamebreakers in the Druid list, yes, there are some borked offenders such as venomfire, but a Spirit Shaman doesn't directly benefit from them.

Imho the spirit shaman fits better the description of a high tier 3 or a low (really low) tier 1, and that would be if there a lot of borked spells in the druid list that do not require the use of wild shape or animal companion.

[Karnith]

Warmage also cast 9 level spells, I don't really get what you are trying to say.
The argument goes that a druid without its spellcasting is tier 3 (based on its Wild Shape and Animal Companion abilities), and therefore it's the class's spellcasting that pushes it up to tier 1. While druids do have the weakest of the tier 1 spell lists, they still have an enormous spell list (dozens of splatbooks' worth), and a large number of buffing, BFC, damage, and utility spells, and a few broken things to boot (e.g. Shapechange).

Regardless, though, a Spirit Shaman cannot be a tier 2 class, by definition, because it can change its spells known from day-to-day. This gives it full access to the druid spell list, unlike tier 2s who have limited spells known. A spirit shaman is either a tier 1 if the druid spell list is strong enough to merit tier 1/2, or a tier 3 if it is not.

[Amnestic]

Warmage also cast 9 level spells, I don't really get what you are trying to say.

The level isn't important, the nature of the spell list and what it contains is. Warmages have 9 levels of spells and while some of them are good, they aren't enough. Wizards have 9 levels of spells (plus a few extra feats) and are Tier 1. Those few extra feats don't make the difference between Tier 4 and Tier 1. The spell list does.

[Silva Stormrage]

My back is low tier 1 as well. Spirit Shamans simply have too many options out of combat and frankly their class features aren't TERRIBLE either. They may get few spells called but their versatility and ability to pull of different tricks far out rivals that of sorcerers, dread necromancers, warblades, and even psions. Druid spellcasting really is that diverse.

I currently have a Spirit Shaman in a campaign and it is amazing the things he can pull off out of combat while still being an amazing caster in combat.

[nedz]

If I want to do melee today I retrieve Shillelagh, Brambles and Entangling staff which I cast on a bit wood I found lying around in the Forest. There are a huge number of further buffs I can add to this.

If I want to do the shape change thing I retrieve Aspect of the Wolf or one of the Bite of X line, again I can buff this up.

If I want to be a healer I can retrieve Lesser Vigour, Lesser Restoration, Mass Lesser Vigour, ...

If I want to blast, then my low level options are limited but by mid-level several options exist: Flame Strike, Ice Storm, ...

If I want to be a Summoner I retrieve SNA in my top two levels.

If I want to be a Controller then I retrieve Entangle, Wall of Thorns, ...

If I want to be a Buffer then I retrieve any of a wide variety of buffs and I spam them.

It's relatively easy to grab a domain; e.g. the Travel domain can be yours in any one of a number of ways which allows me to: Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport. Whilst classes such as the Favoured Soul can also do this, their spell choices are fixed.

I'm sure I haven't exhausted all the options here by any means, and because I get to choose my role on a day by day basis I am a Tier 1 caster.

[MukkTB]

This argument always comes down to the question "Why is the Druid Tier 1?" The Druid spell list is weak for a tier 1 list. Animal companion certainly isn't tier 1. I think consensus is that its tier 4 by itself. The way tiers work you can't normally get to a higher tier by adding two lower tiered things together. So the question asks "Is wildshape + spellcasting tier 1 or is the spellcasting itself tier 1?" Wildshape on a decent chassis has been clocked in at tier 3. Going from that, the tier 1 status must come from the spell list itself. On the other hand the spirit shaman is incredibly weak for a tier 1 character.

The problem is that going up a tier has different requirements for each step. Tier 1 isn't supposed to be more powerful than tier 2. They're supposed to have the same power, the same tricks. A wizard with fireball isn't more powerful than a Sorcerer with fireball. Tier 1 is supposed to be more versatile than tier 2. The Spirit Shaman qualifies. He can rest and then know any spell on the list he has access to. So versatility is there. In fact a Spirit Shaman is weak by tier 2 standards when judged by pure strength.

[thethird]

An incarnate ad binder also change what they do in a daily basis. Are they tier 1?

Can the spirit shaman access the travel domain without prcing?

[Gnaeus]

I agree that it is a tier 1 caster, by definition.

Power wise, it is far weaker than most of the tier 2s, and even the tier 3s. Its tiny number of spells known on any given day really restricts its ability to react on the fly to situations like even most tier 3s can. But the fact that it can reset its spells known, and even its party role, every day makes it a tier 1.

[Silva Stormrage]

I agree that it is a tier 1 caster, by definition.

Power wise, it is far weaker than most of the tier 2s, and even the tier 3s. Its tiny number of spells known on any given day really restricts its ability to react on the fly to situations like even most tier 3s can. But the fact that it can reset its spells known, and even its party role, every day makes it a tier 1.

Eh, you can get some pretty versitile spells on the Druid list. It also gets similar spells known to a sorcerer. I would agree that power wise the spirit shaman is in mid tier 2 though. I think it is better than the favored soul and wilder (Is that tier 2 or 3 I always forget) but weaker than sorcerer and psion. It might be a bit weaker than a dread necromancer or warblade but I think it beats out the other tier 3's as well.

[JoshuaZ]

An incarnate ad binder also change what they do in a daily basis. Are they tier 1?


No, but this is primarily due to a lack of options to choose from, and the fact that most of the options just aren't that strong. There just aren't that many vestiges and that many soulmelds. The druid spell list in contrast is very big.

[Gnaeus]

Eh, you can get some pretty versitile spells on the Druid list. It also gets similar spells known to a sorcerer..

But most of the best spells are either useless to the SS because they involve the AC, or are almost useless to the SS because they are personal combat buffs on a very weak chassis, or they aren't worth retrieving because they are long duration buffs that only cast once per day (Primal X and Heart of X, for example, are great spells, but they are a waste for a spirit shaman who will not need to cast them 4 times per day.)

It does not get similar spells known to a sorcerer. A Sorc 10 gets 15 spells known. A SS only gets 11. Spell for spell, the sorcerer spells are better. The Favored Soul, by comparison, also has better spells than a SS, although not as good as the Sorcerer, and he has 24.

[thethird]

The druid spell list in contrast is very big.

But it is largely focused on buffing oneself to combat via wildshape and the animal companion.

The more I look at the SS the more I see it in tier 3 territory.

[MukkTB]

Spirit Shaman really is either tier 1 or tier 3. However I'm pretty sure that the Druid Spell list and up to 9th level spells blows away tier 3 stuff.

[JoshuaZ]

But it is largely focused on buffing oneself to combat via wildshape and the animal companion.

Yes, the spell list is certainly one of the weaker ones. But they get enough that they can do many of the things we expect T1s to do. They the whole summon nature's ally spells for example which means they can do a lot of fun stuff by summoning situation specific stuff. They get a variety of other summons (such as summons for elementals), which let them do a lot of other things. And outside the SRD, splatbooks give the list a hefty expansion. Complete Divine for example gives them a fair bit of battlefield control.

[Amphetryon]

But it is largely focused on buffing oneself to combat via wildshape and the animal companion.

The more I look at the SS the more I see it in tier 3 territory.

I think that's underselling the options available via the Druid spell list (and other strengths of a Spirit Shaman) by a fair bit; they can buff allies, or themselves, use BFC, summon to provide numerical/tactical advantage as well as extra damage dealers, do some blasting/healing as they see fit, and also buff themselves or any animals they have. The upper reaches of Tier 2 are where I'd peg the class.

[MukkTB]

I haven't played one so I can't be sure, but it's either T1 or T3. T2 is sort of a special tier, marked by game breaking power but more limited flexibility (T3s are more flexible). Spirit Shamen can pick their spells as needed, so they have plenty of flexibility... they just have a bit less raw power (though there's still a ton). So, either they're very high in T3, or very low in T1... really not sure.

Note that in the original tier system, T2 and 3 were merged into one. However, that didn't really reflect well how the classes got along together... T2s can absolutely hang out with T1s (they have the same tricks, just fewer of them), while T3s have a harder time (they're not really playing in the same league).

Anyway, Spirit Shaman should be able to hang out in a T3 group (but be a bit strong) or a T1 group (but not be quite as strong). Annoying, that makes them seem like they ought to count as sort of their own version of T2. I dunno. There's a reason I didn't put them in there.

JaronK

This is what the tier system creator had to say about it in another thread discussing the same thing.

[Piggy Knowles]

I think that's underselling the options available via the Druid spell list (and other strengths of a Spirit Shaman) by a fair bit; they can buff allies, or themselves, use BFC, summon to provide numerical/tactical advantage as well as extra damage dealers, do some blasting/healing as they see fit, and also buff themselves or any animals they have.

I'm with Amph. The druid spell list is in many ways better than the cleric list, IMO. It has the second best BFC in the game, and it has got a ton of useful utility. At high levels, they've also got what is arguably the single best spell in the game in Shapechange. I'd peg them as low tier 1, although I will admit that, while their spell mechanic is cool, the number of spells known they retrieve each day is low enough to limit them.

[Urpriest]

But it is largely focused on buffing oneself to combat via wildshape and the animal companion.

The more I look at the SS the more I see it in tier 3 territory.

Useless spells are irrelevant, you don't have to take them. All that matters is whether there are enough useful spells.