Factotum or Rogue?

[Finalsatyr]

Hello all! I am playing a gestalt campaign, and am retiring my current character for a less optimized, more flavorful toon. Currently, I have him rolled up as a Dwarf Rogue7/Dungeon Delver6//Archivist7/Loremaster6
However, last night I thought about rerolling him, swapping Rogue for Factotum.
He's spent his entire life in the Underdark, surviving by fighting nothing, and learning everything. He seeks any and all lore; artifacts, books, scrolls, lost magic items, etc. Both the factotum and rogue match the feel of this character I feel, but I don't know which build quite fits the bill of the loredelver. Any thoughts?

[Nettlekid]

For the flavor of Loredelver I would go Factotum. Rogues can be intelligent and educated, but the Factotum is all about that. When I think Rogue, I think more crafty and sneaky as opposed to learned. And then mechanically, although Rogues like high Int for skills, Factotums live and breathe a high Int that you're sure to have for Archivist. One thing though, I suggest swapping that last level of Dungeon Delver for one more of Factotum. Factotum 8 is what gets you the ability to make extra standard actions, which any spellcaster loves. So yeah, I say go Factotum. They're really cool, in any situation.

[eggynack]

I second factotum, however I think the build should be all factotum all the time rather than moving into dungeon delver at all. That class is full of infinite cool points. Also, it seems way more synergistic with archivist than rogue is, for the same reasons that factotum is amazing with wizards. In any case, factotum is the ultimate skill monkey class, and thus deserves your selection based approval.

[Finalsatyr]

I'm not too worried about losing levels, because we're gaining another PrC later, and not capping out in level till ~50. VERY long term game, and that's why I want to make sure this guy is built perfect for me to play.
And Nettlekid, that's why I originally went Rogue...Picking locks, making and disabling traps, etc...all of the classic rogue things, he's an expert with (that's how he's made it through the Underdark for some 80 years :p)...but I suppose if Factotum can do well enough in that field it would work
Just want to make sure my character is perfect for me to have fun with, because I usually tend to spend way too much time with opt-fu, and not enough on personality, flavor, etc.

[Bakeru]

Rogue also has "sneak attacking" as common thing, which a factotum... well, can do a tiny little bit, but not really.

On the other hand, picking locks and disarming traps suits a factotum just as much as a rogue, but unless you use borderline cheese by bringing in 3.0 skills, it's a far worse combatant (especially in an extended fight) - but quite good at evading and getting away. Which seems what you want to be.

[Waker]

Rogue also has "sneak attacking" as common thing, which a factotum... well, can do a tiny little bit, but not really.

On the other hand, picking locks and disarming traps suits a factotum just as much as a rogue, but unless you use borderline cheese by bringing in 3.0 skills, it's a far worse combatant - but quite good at evading and getting away. Which seems what you want to be.

Factotums can do fine in combat. Iajutsu use aside, Knowledge Devotion is an excellent and reliable means of granting hit/damage, especially if you take the Collector of Stories skill trick. They also make excellent trippers because of Brains over Brawn, even if tripping isn't the best combat option. Cunning Insight is handy as well, though you'll want Font of Inspiration to get more uses out of it.
Of course if you wanted more combat options, taking levels in Warblade or Swordsage works quite nicely with Factotum.

[eggynack]

Rogue also has "sneak attacking" as common thing, which a factotum... well, can do a tiny little bit, but not really.

On the other hand, picking locks and disarming traps suits a factotum just as much as a rogue, but unless you use borderline cheese by bringing in 3.0 skills, it's a far worse combatant (especially in an extended fight) - but quite good at evading and getting away. Which seems what you want to be.
I don't see this as being that important. with an archivist//factotum, you can use factotum as the passive side. Your damage dealing abilities don't matter nearly as much when you can just cast spells for everything. Factotum is just being used to augment natural archivist awesome by getting int to everything, a ton of skills and extra actions. You could use rogue's combat as the active side to the archivist's buffing, but that seems like a bit of a waste compared to using the archivist's spells actively, and the factotum's bonuses passively.

[Bakeru]

But Brains over Brawn doesn- oh, wait, tripping is a strength-check, not an attack. My mistake.

So, ok, you can build a combat factotum, but a rogue has its basic combat ability (sneak attack) build in, while a factotum needs to use (admittedly very synergistic) feats.

[Waker]

But Brains over Brawn doesn- oh, wait, tripping is a strength-check, not an attack. My mistake.

So, ok, you can build a combat factotum, but a rogue has its basic combat ability (sneak attack) build in, while a factotum needs to use (admittedly very synergistic) feats.

True, but as eggynack pointed out the factotum makes a better passive class. Also sneak attack has plenty of drawbacks: can't affect crit immune targets, needs to flank or catch targets flat-footed and the damage isn't all that impressive (maxing out at potentially 60 points at max level).
Knowledge Devotion goes quite well with the archivists dark knowledge ability.

[Bakeru]

I am actually arguing in favour of factotum. The OP said his char "survived by fighting nothing and learning everything", so I consider better build-in fighting prowess as an argument against the rogue. And the better out-of-combat utility of a factotum is obvious, as is that it's a better passive class.

[kulosle]

Factotum's actually can deal a lot of damage, if i recall correctly. The sneak attack like feature they have, unlike the rest of their abilities, never says there is a cap to how many times you can use it per attack, so you can sink all of your points into it for one explosive attack. But again that still doesn't compare to what the archivist can do. I would suggest getting to level 11 in factotum because it gives you the ability to ignore spell resistance damage reduction and even energy resistance i believe. Which really just makes your archivist unstoppable.

[Finalsatyr]

See I was actually planning on using Archivist as the passive...he is a dungeon crawler first and foremost.
If the Factotum is good at getting out of a fight, and can sneak around and get into places (s)he shouldn't be in, then that's perfect.
Everyone else in the game is VERY high powered, and my character is basically going to be the Bilbo Baggins of the party. He actually has the noncombatant flaw, because he is so used to fleeing when most would fight. Very scary business it is, the Underdark.

[eggynack]

Another issue with the rogue as active combat class is that it increases your MAD. Archivist wants maxed out intellegence, and to get full use out of rogue you're tossing yourself at the mercy of the MADness that is melee classes. With factotum on the other side, you can just toss as many points as possible into int, and then just start pumping other stats as secondary. The factotum version has some emphasis on font of inspiration, but to get the most out of rogues requires subjecting yourself to the whole twf+craven feat chain.

Finally, it's been said before, but it's worth repeating. Cunning surge at 8th is amazing. It's basically a free quicken that you can apply at least once per combat. You get more with font of inspiration, but it's not an absolute necessity. If you turn your current non-archivist side into all factotum, you get 6 IP for two quickens per encounter. This ability is insane, and you desire it with all of your heart. The ability to gain extra standard actions is balanced against the fact that factotums don't get to do that much with them. With spellcasting on the other side, that balance is entirely turned on its head.

[Xerxus]

Rogue potentially connects with 6 sneak attacks in a full attack at 10d6 each with just the basic two weapon fighting. With some optimization though, you can do better. Just throw in the knife master archetype from pathfinder plus haste and you're up to 7 attacks at 10d8.

[eggynack]

See I was actually planning on using Archivist as the passive...he is a dungeon crawler first and foremost.
If the Factotum is good at getting out of a fight, and can sneak around and get into places (s)he shouldn't be in, then that's perfect.
Everyone else in the game is VERY high powered, and my character is basically going to be the Bilbo Baggins of the party. He actually has the noncombatant flaw, because he is so used to fleeing when most would fight. Very scary business it is, the Underdark.
Even with the archivist as a more passive side for buffing and such, the ability to lay down a quickened spell every encounter is still crazy. Just as the cleric can rely on his DMM, you can rely on a free buff round at the beginning of every fight. You lose spells each time, but you have lots of spells at 13th level. Being able to just get extra standard actions helps with everything all the time, especially when you have casting on the other end. Also, rogues are the more combat oriented of the two classes. Leaving flavor aside, archivist//factotum is definitely the more optimized option of the two. Especially if you're not making heavy use of the sneak attack ability anyway, because that's what rogues are actually bringing to the table by way of comparison.

[Finalsatyr]

I'm not worried about 8th level right now, because I'll be there soon enough...I'm not super worried about getting which abilities when, because I want to max out my PrCs asap...but its definitely seeming factotum is winning. And the archivist side is primarily divination spells...that's what he uses to navigate safely and such, so the extra round would pretty much just let me stay out of combat