Caster Level 3rd

[Pickford]

I want a way to get caster level 3rd by 1st level, ideally.

So far I'm seeing a Human Sorceror with Draconic Heritage and Draconic Power (Complete Arcane) could be CL 2 at 1st level, so CL 3 by 2nd.

Any other ideas on reaching CL 3 with only 1 level in Sorc?

Goal:
Enlightened Fist (CA as well) requires "Arcane caster level 3rd." Hence, if it's possible to reach 3rd with only 1 level of sorc, and as EF increases monk capabilities it might be possible to reach 9th level casting (5th level spells) without actually taking more than one class level in a pure spellcaster.

So...anyone know of a way to get another CL without advancing in a class besides monk (after 1 in sorc)?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake, at Sorcerer 1 he actually casts spells as a Sorcerer 3.

You probably want to go Monk 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 10, which gets 16th level Monk abilities and 18th level Sorcerer spellcasting at 20th level. That will also get you Ascetic Mage considerably sooner.

[Urpriest]

I want a way to get caster level 3rd by 1st level, ideally.

So far I'm seeing a Human Sorceror with Draconic Heritage and Draconic Power (Complete Arcane) could be CL 2 at 1st level, so CL 3 by 2nd.

Any other ideas on reaching CL 3 with only 1 level in Sorc?

Goal:
Enlightened Fist (CA as well) requires "Arcane caster level 3rd." Hence, if it's possible to reach 3rd with only 1 level of sorc, and as EF increases monk capabilities it might be possible to reach 9th level casting (5th level spells) without actually taking more than one class level in a pure spellcaster.

So...anyone know of a way to get another CL without advancing in a class besides monk (after 1 in sorc)?

Enlightened Fist requires 8 ranks in a skill. Unless you're using Dusk Giant cheese, your plan doesn't work.

Edit: Ah, I thought you were trying to qualify with only one level of Sorc and two levels of Monk. Yeah, Practiced Spellcaster is made for this.

[The Viscount]

An Aventi with Spell Thematics also gets a cl of 3 at level 1.

[Fable Wright]

You're looking for a build that gets CL 3 with 1 sorcerer level and 4 Monk levels? Practiced Spellcaster. It's what the feat is for.

[Psyren]

Why the heck do you want less sorcerer than monk? That's doing it bass-ackwards - you want as little monk as possible. You can get into Enlightened Fist as a Sorcerer 3/Monk 2, or Sorcerer 4/Monk 1.

[Story]

Why the heck do you want less sorcerer than monk? That's doing it bass-ackwards - you want as little monk as possible. You can get into Enlightened Fist as a Sorcerer 3/Monk 2, or Sorcerer 4/Monk 1.

Some people just don't care about tiers, or the fact that monks don't really work as designed.

[TuggyNE]

Why the heck do you want less sorcerer than monk? That's doing it bass-ackwards - you want as little monk as possible. You can get into Enlightened Fist as a Sorcerer 3/Monk 2, or Sorcerer 4/Monk 1.

Well, uh, who posted this thread?

You are enlightened. Like a fist. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Some people just don't care about tiers, or the fact that monks don't really work as designed.

Well, the fact that he's considering Enlightened Fist at all means he wants something more than pure monk can give him anyway.

I'm just confused by the desire for Monk 4. Slow fall and ki strike... aren't much of a breakpoint.

[Pickford]

Why the heck do you want less sorcerer than monk? That's doing it bass-ackwards - you want as little monk as possible. You can get into Enlightened Fist as a Sorcerer 3/Monk 2, or Sorcerer 4/Monk 1.

I'm trying to maximize effiency in concept. BAB and BSB stop at character level 20th, spellcasting can be gained though as that progresses according to class level, according to the DMG, in epic levels.

Thus: Taking full monk progression is more efficient (assuming one goes into epic levels) than taking sorc levels, as monk has better saves and better BAB.

i.e. a 20th level monk/20th level sorc who took the monk levels 'first' would have better saves and bab than the same character who took the sorc levels first. And they'd have the same casting.

Edit: No need to get nasty Tuggyne, my reasons are entirely rational.

[Divide by Zero]

I'm trying to maximize effiency in concept. BAB and BSB stop at character level 20th, spellcasting can be gained though as that progresses according to class level, according to the DMG, in epic levels.

Thus: Taking full monk progression is more efficient (assuming one goes into epic levels) than taking sorc levels, as monk has better saves and better BAB.

i.e. a 20th level monk/20th level sorc who took the monk levels 'first' would have better saves and bab than the same character who took the sorc levels first. And they'd have the same casting.

Edit: No need to get nasty Tuggyne, my reasons are entirely rational.

Sorc 1/Monk 4 has +3 BAB and +4/+4/+6 saves.
Monk 1/Sorc 4 has +2 BAB and +3/+3/+5 saves.

Is +1 to hit and saves really better than another level and a half of spells?

[Pickford]

Sorc 1/Monk 4 has +3 BAB and +4/+4/+6 saves.
Monk 1/Sorc 4 has +2 BAB and +3/+3/+5 saves.

Is +1 to hit and saves really better than another level and a half of spells?

My point was that the character will eventually 'get' the spells assuming progression past 20th, they'll never get the BAB or saves back.

[Fable Wright]

I'm trying to maximize effiency in concept. BAB and BSB stop at character level 20th, spellcasting can be gained though as that progresses according to class level, according to the DMG, in epic levels.

Thus: Taking full monk progression is more efficient (assuming one goes into epic levels) than taking sorc levels, as monk has better saves and better BAB.

i.e. a 20th level monk/20th level sorc who took the monk levels 'first' would have better saves and bab than the same character who took the sorc levels first. And they'd have the same casting.

Edit: No need to get nasty Tuggyne, my reasons are entirely rational.

And there's the big 'if.' Consider, for a moment, the amount of time it takes to get from level, say, 3 to 4. Probably around 4 sessions, assuming 1/week sessions around 4-5 hours in length. Now, saying that figure was constant, it would take 60 weeks, or over a year and two months, of uninterrupted once a week sessions to get there. With some adventure paths, it's almost exactly a year from levels 1 to 20. Now consider when the campaign is likely to end. Will you get into the epics far enough for your strategy of placing higher value on the linear, easily compensated for class features early on to gain the advantage of quadratically increasing power later? If you do, consider how long it took to get there. A year and a half? More? Now tell me: are a year and a half of 4-hour sessions, entirely uninterrupted, of being subpar compared to your potential worth the +2 or 3 to saves/BAB where such things barely matter any more, and immunities and miss chances are so much more important than those few +s's? Trust me, the pragmatic approach is as the others suggested: focus your priorities on your casting side, not your monk side. A single Shillelagh will tell you exactly why the casting side is a better focus for the build than a few extra +1s and useless class features.

[TuggyNE]

Edit: No need to get nasty Tuggyne, my reasons are entirely rational.

Sorry if you felt I was being nasty, I was just humorously pointing out your deep devotion to Monk-the-class in general. :smallwink:

(And making a stupid pun based on the PrC name.)

[Divide by Zero]

My point was that the character will eventually 'get' the spells assuming progression past 20th, they'll never get the BAB or saves back.

But how many games go into epic levels and don't start below 20? If you're starting in epic with 9th level spells already, sure, that way would be better, but in any other case I would much rather have good spellcasting at lower levels than a near-meaningless +1 at epic levels.

[Pickford]

And there's the big 'if.' Consider, for a moment, the amount of time it takes to get from level, say, 3 to 4. Probably around 4 sessions, assuming 1/week sessions around 4-5 hours in length. Now, saying that figure was constant, it would take 60 weeks, or over a year and two months, of uninterrupted once a week sessions to get there. With some adventure paths, it's almost exactly a year from levels 1 to 20. Now consider when the campaign is likely to end. Will you get into the epics far enough for your strategy of placing higher value on the linear, easily compensated for class features early on to gain the advantage of quadratically increasing power later? If you do, consider how long it took to get there. A year and a half? More? Now tell me: are a year and a half of 4-hour sessions, entirely uninterrupted, of being subpar compared to your potential worth the +2 or 3 to saves/BAB where such things barely matter any more, and immunities and miss chances are so much more important than those few +s's? Trust me, the pragmatic approach is as the others suggested: focus your priorities on your casting side, not your monk side. A single Shillelagh will tell you exactly why the casting side is a better focus for the build than a few extra +1s and useless class features.

I don't disagree with your point.

But you did not consider here: What if you 'start' the campaign at level 20? You know...you get to build the character as efficiently as you want for going into Epic levels.

edit: Divide: Saves are extremely valuable against spells, each point of save effectively reduces the DC of the spell by 1. Thus a 9th level spell has a base DC of 23, reduced by a 20th level bsb becomes a DC of 11 or a 50/50 shot of shrugging it off. This means a 1st level spell is DC 3, or a laughable chance of not being passed. This doesn't even factor in the possibility of a +5 resistance bonus which would result in a minimum DC 6 on saves for 9th level spells...

Just an aside.

[Chained Birds]

Epic Level... saves start to not matter anymore. If you don't have immunity to X and you don't have a contigency for W, then you are dead. Sometimes even atomized beyond even a True Rez or a Wish.

[Greenish]

Is there a particular reason you don't want to take Practiced Spellcaster?

[Pickford]

Is there a particular reason you don't want to take Practiced Spellcaster?

No, I just forgot it existed. :smallredface: