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ZeroGear
2013-04-14, 06:12 PM
While working on my Pathfinder setting, I have been toying with the concept of re-building the crafting system so the creation of magic items is not blatantly in the hands of spellcasters.
To this end, I have re-structuresd parts of how the craft skill is used, quite effectively I might add, but now I come to figuring out how to do the magical version.
So, here's the idea:
1) Item Creation feats require ranks in specific craft skills rather than a minimum caster level (with ranks equal to the replaced caster level) as follows: Brew Potion = Craft Alchemy; Craft Wand, Craft Rod, and Craft Staff = Craft Carving; Craft Magic Arms and Armor = Armor Smithing or Weapon Smithing (either one works to qualify); Scribe Scroll = Craft Scribing; Forge Ring = Craft Jewelry; and Craft Wondrous Items = Craft Tinkering.

2) Spellcasters cannot use their spells to create magic items. Instead, chrafters must get their hands on specific materials that function as components the same way spells are traditionally used. In other words, a crafter needs to get their hands on a fire-producing organ from a monster with a fire breath attack to craft a flaming sword.

This concept is eared towards the idea of giving characters a reason to hunt down specific monsters in order to get better magical items. It would also give the players a reason to seek out craftsmen in order to get specific powerful items, thus making the acquisition and handling of such items more significant. It would similarly give non-spellcasters access to resources that normally would be unobtainable without a caster character.

Granted, this is a rough outline and needs some refining, but does anyone ave a suggestion as to how to balance encounters and challenge ratings according to the components they present (meaning would it be idea to set the "caster level" of the component equal to the CR of the monster that it is harvested from?).

What is everyone's opinion on this?

(P.s. Should this be in the homebrew section or here?)
Edit: Added Forge Ring to the list.

holywhippet
2013-04-14, 06:26 PM
It could kind of unbalance which items depending on what components they use. Like if a bag of holding requires the stomach of a creature with unlimited eating capacity - what happens if none of them are anywhere nearby.

On the other hand, you could expect components to be available for sale if ordinary people can make them. Or you could hire some other adventurers to go and retrieve it.

ZeroGear
2013-04-14, 08:35 PM
It could kind of unbalance which items depending on what components they use. Like if a bag of holding requires the stomach of a creature with unlimited eating capacity - what happens if none of them are anywhere nearby.

A point, wich is why I want the opinions of others on this idea. Granted, leather and cloth goods would be more likely to require special plant fibers, woven hairs, or hides, but that is beside the point. Required creatures not being nearby should help a DM regulate what items are available in the game and what is unique to each region. Similarly, this could also help the building pf national trade due to resources available to each region, or even inspire quests to get special ingredients in order to craft weapons against specific threats.


On the other hand, you could expect components to be available for sale if ordinary people can make them. Or you could hire some other adventurers to go and retrieve it.

This is equally true, as that a number of components can be harvested form plants and fungi in addition to weaker animals. In fact, I would expect that (in a latter addition) there to be a list of specific herbs that are cultivated specifically to brew cure potions while teleportation and other higher-level spell-equivilent ingredients to be much harder to procure; making the items crafted from them all the more valuable.

Granted, I am still working out how the CR of encounters involved in getting the ingredients scales with the CL of the ingredient, so if anyone has any suggestions as to how challenging a given organ donor/symbiotic guardian/predator/elemental protector should be, I am quite open to them.

BWR
2013-04-16, 11:44 PM
1) Some of your suggestions sound fun, but I fail to see what a limited version of Craft: Blacksmithing will do for Wondrous Items.

2) Find a copy of the old Player's Option: Spells and Magic. It has some good ideas, even if it resulted in magic items being prohibitvely difficult to make.

There is a precedent for something similar in some old fiction. In "the Crystal Shard", Bruenor (a dwarf without any magical abilities, in case someone doesn't know) crafts a powerful magical weapon using an enchanting scroll which he could read. Some speculation on the scroll: it was created by a dwarven cleric to allow non-caster dwarves to create magic weapons. The book may have gone into more detail, but it's been years and years since I read it and I'm too lazy to check now.

ZeroGear
2013-04-18, 03:58 PM
1) Some of your suggestions sound fun, but I fail to see what a limited version of Craft: Blacksmithing will do for Wondrous Items.


First, thank you for the input on this topic. Honestly, I only chose the Craft: Tinkering skill for wondrous items because I was trying to fit each feat to a corresponding craft. Since wondrous items are so diverse, and really hard to pin down under one category, I tried making a catch-all skill instead. If you can think of a better craft skill to associate with this feat, I would be happy to hear it (also, I think I should add Craft Ring to the list).

Also, thank you for pointing me in the direction of the resource book, I will be sure to look it up.

Geordnet
2013-04-18, 04:25 PM
Perhaps instead of trying to make a "catch-all" skill for wondrous items, you just let wondrous items work on a case-by-case basis? As in, a Boots of Speed requires Craft(Cobbler) or maybe Profession(Cobbler), while an Eyes of the Eagle requires Craft(Jewelry). In fact, Craft(Jewelry) combined with Profession(Clothier) and Craft(Alchemy) could probably cover 90% of Wondrous Items.

Rhynn
2013-04-18, 06:57 PM
It could kind of unbalance which items depending on what components they use. Like if a bag of holding requires the stomach of a creature with unlimited eating capacity - what happens if none of them are anywhere nearby.

Then, by jove, nobody gets a bag of holding! :angrygrognard:

Seriously though, why should PCs have completely free choice as to what magic items they make, even with the feats? It's not like they do even in the default system - what if no one has the right spells? You go find the spells. What if there's no appropriate creature to chop into components around? You go find the creature.

Anyway, this sounds cool. Being the actual creator of the item is cool and pretty Tolkien (rather than enchanting someone else's creation, which is also cool and pretty Dragonslayer), and the component-thing is very old-school D&D. Cloaks of elvenkind are spun from the hair of elvish maidens, cut under a new moon, plus the whisper of a spider, etc.

ZeroGear
2013-04-18, 07:42 PM
Perhaps instead of trying to make a "catch-all" skill for wondrous items, you just let wondrous items work on a case-by-case basis? As in, a Boots of Speed requires Craft(Cobbler) or maybe Profession(Cobbler), while an Eyes of the Eagle requires Craft(Jewelry). In fact, Craft(Jewelry) combined with Profession(Clothier) and Craft(Alchemy) could probably cover 90% of Wondrous Items.

Would you recommend that I break the Wondrous items into groups and assign different Craft skills based on the slot?
I can see doing Leatherwork for shoes, hats, bracers, gloves, and belts, Tailoring for cloaks, vests and shirts, Jewelry for goggles, amulets, phylacteries scarabs, ion stones and necklaces, Armor for helmets and gauntlets, and Tinkering for most other items; the only worry I have is that a character ill run out of skill points to invest.

I would like to mention that in Pathfinder you need to make a Craft or Spellcraft check to make magic items. Typically, I would say these checks are 20-25 plus spell level for each item.

BWR
2013-04-19, 07:11 AM
What he said ^.

I was sure there was a PF feat that allowed non-casters to create magic items, but I can't for the life of me find it.
Personally, I don't mind magic being in the hands of magicians. If you want to create magic items, you better have some magic to put in it. I allow someone with a high UMD score to use scrolls/wands/etc to use that in place of casting the spells themselves. That would up the cost of the item, certainly, but it's a way around needing to cast the spell yourself.

Rhynn
2013-04-19, 09:04 AM
What he said ^.

I was sure there was a PF feat that allowed non-casters to create magic items, but I can't for the life of me find it.
Personally, I don't mind magic being in the hands of magicians. If you want to create magic items, you better have some magic to put in it. I allow someone with a high UMD score to use scrolls/wands/etc to use that in place of casting the spells themselves. That would up the cost of the item, certainly, but it's a way around needing to cast the spell yourself.

Master Craftsman feat (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#_master-craftsman)?


Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.

Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.

Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

ZeroGear
2013-04-19, 03:45 PM
What he said ^.

I was sure there was a PF feat that allowed non-casters to create magic items, but I can't for the life of me find it.
Personally, I don't mind magic being in the hands of magicians. If you want to create magic items, you better have some magic to put in it. I allow someone with a high UMD score to use scrolls/wands/etc to use that in place of casting the spells themselves. That would up the cost of the item, certainly, but it's a way around needing to cast the spell yourself.

I can agree with you that in most settings this works out pretty well, but I would still like to restore a little balance between casters and non-casters, especially for games where magic items are the only form of spellcasting most people will see (I have heard of games where caster classes are rare, but there is a larger number of magic items to make up for that).
Also, looking at it from a character's point of view, what is more impressive: going to the local wizard and giving him a lot of gold to enchant your sword, or taking on a mission to fight a fire-breathing lizard and using its burning core to infuse your blade with it's magical flame?

I will agree that scenario 1 is more common and easier to manage, but the second option is, I think, more enjoyable for those who enjoy letting their characters create a legacy.

Concerning the Master Craftsman feat: I do not like the way it's worded. I am familiar with the Pathfinder crafting system, and I love the fact that you need skill checks rather than spending xp, but it makes certain items too accessible to characters. By simply adding 5 to the craft DC, one can leave out needed spells or (non item-creation) feats, giving too much power to characters. With that in mind, and considering the many ways to boost skill check rolls, items that are supposed to be rare become too easy to obtain, even for NPCs.
Similarly, looking at the phrasing of the feat, by RAW one can choose any craft skill to create magic items. I would rather not have players running around making vorpal longswords with Craft: Basket weaving.

Rhynn
2013-04-19, 04:32 PM
Similarly, looking at the phrasing of the feat, by RAW one can choose any craft skill to create magic items. I would rather not have players running around making vorpal longswords with Craft: Basket weaving.

You mean any Craft or Profession! You can make magic swords because you're a baker, magic crowns because you're a shepherd, or magic shields because you're a courtesan!

ZeroGear
2013-04-19, 05:11 PM
You mean any Craft or Profession! You can make magic swords because you're a baker, magic crowns because you're a shepherd, or magic shields because you're a courtesan!

Hence, my dislike of this feat. Now, back to giving input as to ground rules for the CR of the monsters associated with the ingredients please.

Rhynn
2013-04-19, 06:33 PM
The components extracted from a creature equal approximately half the average treasure for that CR encounter in gp value for crafting.

Only hard guideline I can think of. I think making case-by-case judgments is a better way, personally, but that's my weird oldey-timey imitation style.

ZeroGear
2013-04-20, 10:45 PM
The valuing of the component by CR treasure is a good idea, admittedly one I didn't think of. That being said, I would think that for components that are part of the creature, rather than ones guarded by one, a Craft: Taxidermy or Heal check should be required to extract the component. Does anyone thing a DC of 10+Creatures CR is a good bar to set the check at?
Also, since I would assume that components are part of the treasure the characters can get, would you suggest decreasing the amount of other stuff they obtain from the encounter?

Also, I would like to add two rules of the components taken from creatures:
1) Only one component per creature. This is for simplicity's sake, and to assure that the treasure remains balanced.

2) Offense trumps defense. If the creature has two traits, such as a breath weapon and energy resistance, then the component from the creature is the same. In this case, the organ that generates the breath weapon heats the creatures body from within, resulting in the resistance (thus harvesting the hide would do nothing but give you an exotic looking mantle as only the organ would have any internal magic). Again, this is to simplify the extraction process and balance the treasure.

Rhynn
2013-04-21, 01:31 AM
The valuing of the component by CR treasure is a good idea, admittedly one I didn't think of. That being said, I would think that for components that are part of the creature, rather than ones guarded by one, a Craft: Taxidermy or Heal check should be required to extract the component. Does anyone thing a DC of 10+Creatures CR is a good bar to set the check at?
Also, since I would assume that components are part of the treasure the characters can get, would you suggest decreasing the amount of other stuff they obtain from the encounter?

Interesting dilemma. Requiring a skill check based on CR means another skill that must be more or less maxed out. I'd make it a flat DC, letting PCs either invest a little bit and have a decent chance of passing it or invest a lot and be assured a pass. It seems a fair enough trade - invest the skill points and you won't randomly lose thousands or tens of thousands of gp value in magical components.


1) Only one component per creature. This is for simplicity's sake, and to assure that the treasure remains balanced.

Seems sensible, although you could just divide up the "treasure value" into separate components. This dragon's heart is worth 10,000 gp crafting credit, its claws are worth 5,000 gp crafting credit, etc. But you're right, this is not too simple. I'm all for doing this sort of thing ad-hoc, so I'm not so concerned.

ZeroGear
2013-04-21, 05:18 AM
Interesting dilemma. Requiring a skill check based on CR means another skill that must be more or less maxed out. I'd make it a flat DC, letting PCs either invest a little bit and have a decent chance of passing it or invest a lot and be assured a pass. It seems a fair enough trade - invest the skill points and you won't randomly lose thousands or tens of thousands of gp value in magical components.


If making it a flat check, what DC would you recommend?



Seems sensible, although you could just divide up the "treasure value" into separate components. This dragon's heart is worth 10,000 gp crafting credit, its claws are worth 5,000 gp crafting credit, etc. But you're right, this is not too simple. I'm all for doing this sort of thing ad-hoc, so I'm not so concerned.

Maybe now would be a good time to mention that this was not going to be added to existing monsters, although it can be. Honestly, I was trying to establish some ground rules so that I would have some guide lines when I made all the monsters for the setting I'm working on. (and yes, aside from skeletons, zombies, and most animals, every other creature is likely going to be custom made) I was just concerned that having too many components in one creature would make the already complex process of dividing treasure too complicated, especially is someone fails the check to retrieve the component.

Rhynn
2013-04-21, 09:53 AM
Maybe now would be a good time to mention that this was not going to be added to existing monsters, although it can be. Honestly, I was trying to establish some ground rules so that I would have some guide lines when I made all the monsters for the setting I'm working on. (and yes, aside from skeletons, zombies, and most animals, every other creature is likely going to be custom made) I was just concerned that having too many components in one creature would make the already complex process of dividing treasure too complicated, especially is someone fails the check to retrieve the component.

I approve heartily. Making your own monsters really gives a setting its own flavor. And it's not like you need hundreds of monsters - having only some dozens at most creates a setting with a very coherent flavor.


If making it a flat check, what DC would you recommend?

Now this is going to be pure guesswork. I think we can assume that players can't take 20, since there's consequences for failure (ruining the components). So say DC 20, then. It's passable for 1st-levels (and 1st-levels optimized to pass it can make it when they take 10), and becomes easier and eventually effortless for higher levels.

I'm not sure if that's what you want, though... if you want there to be a chance that high-levels PCs don't get the incredibly valuable magical components they were seeking for because of a roll of the dice, without investing a bunch of skill points in a skill that possibly has no other uses, then make it a scaling check. (I don't intend to criticize the idea, it's perfectly legit.)

ZeroGear
2013-04-21, 10:42 AM
I approve heartily. Making your own monsters really gives a setting its own flavor. And it's not like you need hundreds of monsters - having only some dozens at most creates a setting with a very coherent flavor.


Exactly. I figured I would make about 120 or so creatures of various types, with some extra ones of the Outsider type (but more on that later), then take all the existing animals already published and add them in. I would say that those of the Magical Beast, Dragon, Aberration, and Plant types, and maybe Oozes, would have spell-fuel materials s part of their physiology. Humanoid creatures are already accounted for (see the races link in my sig), and Monstrous Humanoids and Fey would be more prone to serve as guardians of special fauna and minerals (as would the humanoid races). Of course constructs are already walking magic items, so they don't count.

Outsiders...are a different matter. I have considered using them in a different process called Forge-Binding, which actually imprisons them in crystals to serve as an energy source for magic items. Granted, that is how I account for intelligent items (although not all Outsiders are going to be smart enough to coherently talk), and that's going to be a separate thread in it's own right.