The pros and cons of a spirit shaman?

[CyberThread]

If you look at the spirit shaman as one of the hybrid classes that is from PHB 2, how does it shine or sink when compared to the duskblade,beguiler , warmage

instead of comparing them to druid/wizard/cleric

[limejuicepowder]

It's overall power is significantly higher than any of those classes. At the most basic level it has the best of prepped and spontaneous casting, and a strong spell list. Its several notable class abilities are just gravy.

This isn't to say the other classes are rendered entirely moot of course. Beguiler especially can do a lot of things the spirit shaman just can't touch.

[nedz]

Spirit Shamen is in Complete Devine, not PH2.

We are having a debate in another thread about which tier Spirit Shamen is in. All of the points raised in that thread are relevant to your question and it would seem to be a but pointless to rehash them twice in a day. :smallsmile:

[Feralventas]

Spirit Shaman has Good, but not overpowering class features compared to it's Druid counterpart.

Essentially,
Wizard T1 goes to T2 on a Sorcerer as they have the same list but different spell systems.

Cleric T1 goes to T2 on a Mystic or Favored Soul, for the same reasons.

And likewise, Druid T1 goes to T2 on a Spirit Shaman as a spontaneous caster that uses the druid spell and has separate features.

Or it would, except that reading the Spirit Shaman you get to change your spells "known" each day as well. It is a spontaneous caster that can refresh almost as fast as a prepared 'caster.

I'd actually call that T1, though I think it's been discussed that the Druid spell list, while certainly potent, is a little meeker or at least more situational than the Wiz/Sorc or Cleric list.

However, that's for having Access to those spells. If you pick a specific theme like "Only fire element related spells," or "Things that have to do with spirits and little else but cure spells" then you'll still be about on par with the Beguiler.

[CyberThread]

no that thread is arguing them as compared to wizards and clerics, or even lesser druids, I want to argue it based on other hybrid caster classes, not god classes.

[Amphetryon]

no that thread is arguing them as compared to wizards and clerics, or even lesser druids, I want to argue it based on other hybrid caster classes, not god classes.

1) It's not a hybrid Class; why do you want to make that the point of comparison? From here, that reads like trying to compare the Warblade with the Factotum; the roles filled are typically so different that the comparisons don't wind up with much common ground other than "a Class in D&D 3.5."

2) Given that it's not a hybrid Class and is - by the general consensus of the thread you're choosing to dismiss - ranked as stronger in power/versatility (a higher Tier) than any of the hybrid Classes, what's the hoped-for outcome?

[nedz]

I'm not sure what you mean by Hybrid class ? Normally that means a dual or multi-threat class, which spirit shaman is not.

The argument in the other thread is relevant and is not as you described.

Well lets look briefly at the three classes you mentioned: Duskblade, Beguiler and Warmage.

These all have fixed spell lists. If the challenge you are facing can be handled by these spell lists then great, but if that is not the case then you can contribute little. If the Spirit Shaman's spells are not useful then he can change them.

[CyberThread]

I don't want to be a big issue on this, but if it is mentioned on the other thread, why don't you just let this thread sink then, and stop making posts pointing that out?


I started another thread that narrowed my inquiry , instead of being mixed in the general pot of the other.


I consider it hybrid on a ghost busters concept, which makes it melee/caster not pure caster, much like beguiler, is illusion and skill monkey trap, while war mage blows stuff up, and duskblade blows some things up while doing spellsinger.

[Starbuck_II]

I consider it hybrid on a ghost busters concept, which makes it melee/caster not pure caster, much like beguiler, is illusion and skill monkey trap, while war mage blows stuff up, and duskblade blows some things up while doing spellsinger.

It is no less pure caster than a Druid. Same spells.

[Psyren]

It is no less pure caster than a Druid. Same spells.

This. And it's much less of a gish than a druid since it lacks wildshape, while also having weak proficiencies. The Druid list does have some gish spells, but not as many (since wildshape is assumed as a balancing factor for them) as the cleric list gets.

Anyway, pros and cons:

+ Full Druid list
+ Full casting (20/20)
+ Spontaneous casting
+ Can rotate spells known
+ Applies metamagic ahead of time (i.e. does not increase casting time.)
+ Decent class features (Ghost Warrior is good, Guide Magic is fantastic and Recall Spirit can be very useful. The others are situatiional - or come very late for most campaigns, e.g. Favored of the Spirits - but are certainly not bad.)
+ Better knowledges than Druid (includes Geography, History and best of all, Local.)


- Weak proficiencies as above.
- MAD (and the worst kind of MAD too - bonus spells and save DC are on different stats, forcing you to choose or be average at both.)
- Limited spells retrieved, particularly for your highest spell level.

All in all they would be a strong class even with just the spontaneous casting from the druid list, but they get more than that. The MAD is unfortunate but the typical response to that is simply to focus on no-save spells and dump the save DC stat (Cha in this case.)