[PF] Alchemists balance?

[Story]

One of the players in our group just created a new Alchemist character (level 7), and spent his first battle killing a Bone Devil in two hits with his bombs (admittedly, the second was a crit).

And of course it's going to get even better at level 8 when he gets Fast Bombs. This has prompted the DM to ask about how Alchemists could possibly be balanced. I figured I should ask here to get the opinions of people with superior experience.

Are they somewhat like uberchargers, where getting huge damage numbers is their thing? Oddly, he's done a lot more damage than the party Wizard or Druid, even though those are normally considered the OP ones. I suppose the Alchemist has less versatility due to delayed spell progression, but that doesn't really show in battle.

Here's the character sheet in question. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=536250)

[DownwardSpiral]

Sooo, bone devils have 105 hp according to the pf srd. So I'm guessing other people helped? because even max damage on both bombs (with one crit) is only like, 80ish damage.

Keep in mind you only get a limited amount of bombs a day. its what, your alc level plus your int mod? And that's really their only good attack.

Really, without knowing all the other people in the group, I'd say its a different tier of optimization issue. druid isnt super flashy offensive damage, and I'm guessing the wizard isnt too keen on fireballs?

It's either that, or the fact that alchs are really hard to mess up. same with ToB classes. The floor for optimization is just high.

[Urpriest]

The bombs scale just like sneak attack, so if you're worried about damage you should be about as worried with basically all classes.

[JoshuaZ]

Yes, alchemists really are damage dealers when they want to be that. But even given that, I'm confused. The bombs should do 4d6+7 which maxes out at 31 damage. A critted bomb would then do 62 damage at max, for a total of 93 damage. That's a lot but that's still less than a bone devil's total hit points. Looking at their spell list they have Targeted Bomb Admixture, which if they got that off would add 18 more damage, which would be enough. But even then, this is barely doable. Either we're missing something here or the alchemist got very lucky.

[Story]

He also had +4 Int from a Fox's Cunning extract. The bombs did 37 and 63 damage, so it wasn't enough to kill the Osyluth singlehandledy, but it nearly was. Some other people attacked it in between.

[JoshuaZ]

He also had +4 Int from a Fox's Cunning extract. The bombs did 37 and 63 damage, so it wasn't enough to kill the Osyluth singlehandledy, but it nearly was. Some other people attacked it in between.

Oh Ok. So this sounds like there are three things going on here: 1) He's better optimized for dealing damage than most of the party 2) Alchemists are easily optimizable for heavy damage 3) He got lucky with the dice, but not insanely lucky.

[eggynack]

He also had +4 Int from a Fox's Cunning extract. The bombs did 37 and 63 damage, so it wasn't enough to kill the Osyluth singlehandledy, but it nearly was. Some other people attacked it in between.
This seems kinda like a non-problem. He got nearly maxed out damage, critted the enemy, had a buff on and needed the help of other party members. Even if damage were the primary factor for balance, which it isn't, those results seem somewhat non-indicative.

[Keneth]

What the others said. It was basically just a lucky shot. He should have done roughly 52 damage on two normal hits, including targeted bomb admixture, so it would generally require 4 bombs to take down that bone devil. Also, those are some crazy stats for a level 7 character. Complaining about power balance when the characters have stats that are the equivalent of 44 point buy is kinda moot. If all party members are that powerful, the GM should be throwing at least 2 osyluths at you at a time.

Alchemists are strong though, they can take down unprotected opponents very quickly, including monsters like golems which are otherwise hard to deal with. They mostly weak against lots of smaller encounters since they run out of juice pretty quickly.

[watchwood]

Alchemists can have powerful offensive punch, but he's get terrible AC and will saves. He is quite vulnerable to a well placed sneak attack, and there's plenty of save-or-lose spells that work off of will saves. Hold/Charm/Dominate person come to mind pretty quick.

I have the same problem with a level 13 Magus I'm playing. I can hit 150 damage in a round (before crits) if I've got a bit of prep time and all my attacks hit, but I'm incredibly squishy.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Alchemists are solidly middle of the road. They are definitely not overpowered, and they make extremely poor direct damage dealers, IMO. They can potentially do a bit more than other classes in short bursts w/ Fast Bombs, but doing so runs through their daily supply stupidly fast. As long as you have a few combats between rests, the Alchemist will never be overpowered. If you don't... spellcasters are an even bigger concern than alchemist is.

[Keneth]

I have the same problem with a level 13 Magus I'm playing. I can hit 150 damage in a round (before crits) if I've got a bit of prep time and all my attacks hit, but I'm incredibly squishy.

You are? My magus was pretty damn sturdy and we get the WBL of NPCs. Did you invest everything into spike attacks? :smallconfused:

[Chained Birds]

If you've got both a Druid and a Wizard on your team, I'm surprised your DM hasn't had problems with their modus operandi.

A 3.5 Ubercharger far exceeds what an Alchemist can do in regards to single target damage. Alchemist's main bomb strength comes from their crowd control abilities attached to their bombs and that they hit touch ACs.

If your DM throws a creature immune to fire (Mainly fire) or electric, then the PC in made completely useless in terms of Bomb damage.

I'd actually suggest the PC invest in some of the Debuff Bomb Discoveries like Confusion Bomb, Tanglefoot Bomb or Dispelling Bomb. As for Damage, he should get Force Bomb at some point to avoid the cases where an enemy is immune or heavily resistant to most types of energy (Like many Outsiders).

[Psyren]

Lots of classes will look more powerful than they should if you have one or only a few encounters per day - or only small encounters, consisting of e.g. single monsters. Alchemists are no exception.

Like a caster, one of the alchemist's balancing factors is its limited ammunition. Now, one of the things to keep in mind is how easily they can make that ammunition count - the typical monster defenses of saves, SR, DR, immunities and AC are very easy for an alchemist to bypass, so their damage (which is actually pretty middle-of-the-road as others have said) can appear high by comparison, especially if the monster in question was designed with low HP to compensate for those defenses. (And indeed, looking at other CR 9 monsters, bone devils appear to be on the lower end of the HP spectrum.)

For many enemy types - particularly outsiders, constructs and undead - reliance on those defenses is a significant component of their challenge rating. The Bone Devil you mentioned, for instance, possesses spell resistance, damage reduction, elemental resistances/immunities, decent AC and good fort/reflex saves. An alchemist with electricity, sonic or force bombs can bypass just about all of that without even having to be specifically prepared for it (beyond the minor hurdle of having one of those bomb types in the first place), whereas a blaster of another class would likely have a harder time. Even trickier foes like swarms and incorporeal/ethereal creatures can be blasted fairly easily by an alchemist's bombs.

TL;DR because of the way they can bypass common defenses, you can end up with several enemies that are easier vs. an alchemist than their CR would indicate. And if the alchemist's primary limit - ammunition - doesn't come into play, they will continue to look unduly strong.


Anyway - If you do intend to have a lower- combat game and want to bring alchemists down a bit, consider limiting bombs/day to 1/2 level + Int rather than full level + Int.

[Chained Birds]

Anyway - If you do intend to have a lower- combat game and want to bring alchemists down a bit, consider limiting bombs/day to 1/2 level + Int rather than full level + Int.

That seems a bit harsh for a Grenadier Alchemist though. Isn't the Archetype all about Bombs?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Alchemists get too few bombs per day already!

I don't see you suggesting the DM cut down on the spellcasters' spells/day to make up for low encounter rate....

[Psyren]

Alchemists get too few bombs per day already!

I don't see you suggesting the DM cut down on the spellcasters' spells/day to make up for low encounter rate....

Actually, I'd suggest that too, and cutting PP as well :smalltongue: I actually meant to put that in my post as an adjustment for casters across the board, in campaigns like that, but I was nodding off a bit.


That seems a bit harsh for a Grenadier Alchemist though. Isn't the Archetype all about Bombs?

It depends on the balance point of the campaign and how combat-focused the DM wants it to be. Though I would imagine that a DM who wanted a low-combat campaign would (or at least should) look askance at an archetype centered around bombing to begin with.

[Chained Birds]

It depends on the balance point of the campaign and how combat-focused the DM wants it to be. Though I would imagine that a DM who wanted a low-combat campaign would (or at least should) look askance at an archetype centered around bombing to begin with.

I'm just wondering what the DM thought the Alchemist class was all about? I look at it from a glance and it seems like it can either go the Blow-up-everyone route or Hyde-up-and-wreck-face route. Either route leads to high DPS.

I'm just thinking it was one of those situations where the DM just said, "Hand me that sheet. (10 seconds later) Yep, everything seems fine." As in, he/she really didn't look at the sheet and didn't adjust the campaign or encounter to suit a high damaging character that bypasses most defenses.

Edit: To help the DM, let's make a list of enemies that an Alchemist with this build would find difficult to deal with.
- Invisible foes
- Creatures with a Miss Chance
- Creatures that actually have a decent Touch AC
- Anything that can give itself immunity/resistance to the elements
- Incorporeal Creatures
- Enemies with extremely high HP to offset the new damage
- Generally, more encounter per day then are already played out to offset the new addition.

[Story]

Oh the DM also just ruled that Fox's Cunning stacks with the Headband of Int for some reason.

[eggynack]

Oh the DM also just ruled that Fox's Cunning stacks with the Headband of Int for some reason.
That doesn't seem all that important. It's incorrect, but fox's cunning represents a pretty big expenditure of resources for its power increase. It just doesn't seem like there's a story here, despite what your username would otherwise indicate. A class with a high damage dealing capacity dealt a high enough damage to almost kill an enemy over the course of two attacks with a buff spell and a pretty high amount of luck. That's just not a very impressive feat when you think about it. I think these are reasonable things for a character to be doing, and if your campaign's only problem is occasional high damage dealing, that doesn't seem like much of a problem at all.

[NamelessNPC]

Keep in mind that bomb crits only add 1d6+INT, the rest of the progression is not multiplied in a critical hit, I don't know why nobody mentioned this but in mi experience bomb criticals were pretty meh

[Keneth]

Keep in mind that bomb crits only add 1d6+INT, the rest of the progression is not multiplied in a critical hit, I don't know why nobody mentioned this but in mi experience bomb criticals were pretty meh

The hell are you on about, bomb damage is not extra damage like SA, it's multiplied normally on a critical hit. :smallconfused:

[The Boz]

The hell are you on about, bomb damage is not extra damage like SA, it's multiplied normally on a critical hit. :smallconfused:

Actually, it isn't.

The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike).

[Keneth]

Huh, I've never noticed that. That's just sad, really, even warlocks get to multiply their eldritch blasts. :smallannoyed:

[eggynack]

So now, in order to kill an enemy, the alchemist required ally help, a critical hit, lucky damage rolls, a buff spell, two attacks, use of limited resources, and a rule mistake. This may have crossed over into super-balance. Killing an enemy with all of those mitigating factors is not imbalanced at all, by any measure.

[The Boz]

Huh, I've never noticed that. That's just sad, really, even warlocks get to multiply their eldritch blasts. :smallannoyed:

There is no eldritch blast in PF. Closest to it is Arcane Bolt, and it loses the ability to crit as soon as it gets an area effect.

[Keneth]

There is no eldritch blast in PF. Closest to it is Arcane Bolt, and it loses the ability to crit as soon as it gets an area effect.

That was kind of besides the point, wasn't it? Alchemist is basically just Paizo's take on a warlock. A touch-attack blaster with a small number of utility abilities.

[The Boz]

...you realize Pathfinder has a Warlock, right?
I don't see the connection.

[Keneth]

...you realize Pathfinder has a Warlock, right?

Since when does 3rd party material count? It's no more official than my Pathfinder warlock conversion.

[Chained Birds]

If anything, the Cryptic (PF Psionics) is the closest you'll get to a Warlock in terms of community acceptance for a 3rd party class in PF.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Keep in mind that bomb crits only add 1d6+INT, the rest of the progression is not multiplied in a critical hit

See, this is one of those times where strict RAW is idiotic and should be ignored with a passion. We don't all do organized play.

[NamelessNPC]

Well, maybe you are right. I hadn't challenged the RAW (in my games) because I had never seen it as a problem, I wasn't looking for a damage dealer when I made a bomber alchemist. Damage is for barbarians