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Henlein_Kosh
2013-04-14, 10:43 PM
I have had several discussions with one of my regular players about 3.5 multiclassing versus AD&D multiclassing, this is my attempt at creating some houserules that incorporates the best of both worlds.

I want your opinion if a character using these rules can be used alongside standard characters without fouling up the game balance completly, and of course suggestion to improve the concept is also more than welcome.

The basic idea is that you have a primary and secondary progression and spilt the xp equally between them.

The primary class is fixed and can never be changed, and it runs on the standard xp table.
The secundary class can be changed, but this automatically incurs the 20% xp penalty, normally asociated with having to big a gap between class levels.
The secundary class needs 30% more xp to level up than the primary.

The level dependant benefits (feats and Ability score increases) are tied to the primary class and progress slower than for a "single class" character.
Besides the feat at level one a multi-classer gets a feat at level 4, 8 and so forth and ability score increase at level 5, 10 and so forth.

At first level a multi-classer don't get both classes HP, Base attack, saves, and skill points, he instead chooses the better of the 2, although the skillpoints can be spend with both classes skill-lists as class skills.

I am considering penalizing the secondary class, some of the things I'm considering are fewer skillpoints and smaller hit dice.

inuyasha
2013-04-14, 10:46 PM
no offense to your ideas but a player would rather just be gestalt, it has no penalties, and you can freely change both classes :)

Henlein_Kosh
2013-04-14, 10:56 PM
I'm aware of the gestalt rules, but they don't really apply to what I'm trying to accomplish, as you can't drop a gestalt character in with single class characters without destroying the balance of the party.

bobthe6th
2013-04-14, 11:12 PM
I don't see the benefit over standard multiclassing.

So, both classes get equal XP, but the off one takes 30% more to level?

So, its like for 130% the xp to level twice, you level twice?

Are you trying to penelize multiclassing? Cause this is strictly worse.

The issue is 3.5 was built so leveling added to the same numbers, just in different quantity. Every place it doesn't, characters do poorly. I suggest offering gestalt at an XP penalty.

ngilop
2013-04-14, 11:14 PM
gelstalt is basically what 1st/2nd ed multilsaccing was w/o the exp penalty just make it so you earn 50% less exp for your additional class(es) and bammo you got it right

I neve rliekd gestalt myself too much of a power boost

at least this way you got both classes it just your 2ndary one is going to be half what your primary one is.

Henlein_Kosh
2013-04-15, 12:27 AM
@bobthe6th
the benefit of these rules is that you don't give up as much when multiclassing.

one of the main "flaws" of 3.5 multiclassing is that if you want a character that is f.ex. equal part rogue and wizard you give up enough base attack that your sneak attack is very unreliable, your skillpoints must be focused in much fewer skills (giving up versatility) and your spellcasting is so far behind that you can't relly on it in encounters made for your overall level.

In a standard game a level 5/5 has 45000xp, a character using these rules would be Level 7/6, but would have missed out on a feat.

And no I'm not trying to penalize multiclassing, if I start using these rules it will be alongside standard characters.

@bobthe6th and ngilop
Using the gestalt rules at a penalty (flat or to secondary class) just seems to be to powerful compared to standard characters, in my opinion, but it might just be me overthinking things.

bobthe6th
2013-04-15, 12:36 AM
that is fixed progression classes, which can be fixed with a feat(a swift hunter like), a thurge prc, or a combo base class. For a fighter/cleric? it works nicely.

for the 7/5 charicter, is it gesalt for the first 5 levels of the main class? or is it defectively level 12?

Henlein_Kosh
2013-04-15, 08:05 AM
that is fixed progression classes, which can be fixed with a feat(a swift hunter like), a thurge prc, or a combo base class. For a fighter/cleric? it works nicely.

for the 7/5 charicter, is it gesalt for the first 5 levels of the main class? or is it defectively level 12?

To some extend yes you can probably Prestige class yourself out of some of the problems, but at a cost: some prc's have hefty prerequisites and some will only give you part of what you want and a lot of things that are nice but not necessarily what you want.
As for combo classes, that could work except it would require more work than I'm willing to put into it as a gm.
I truly can't remember having seen feats that even remotely could do what I'm looking for, could you please give a few sources for them?

The example character would be lvl 1 gestalt and 11 full levels. minus some feats and an ability increase, as he only gets those based on the 7 levels of the main class, and at a slower pace than normal (and I am reconsidering the slower pace part).

Vadskye
2013-04-15, 05:39 PM
A key part of old-school multiclassing was the idea that you were fundamentally either a single-classed character or a multiclassed character. The only exception was dual-classing for humans, which still only ever let you level up in one class at a time. I built a system which very thoroughly represents old-school multiclassing, and I've used it in a few campaigns before. It's not perfect, but there weren't any major balance issues when I used it before, and characters from this system coexisted comfortably with regular 3.5 characters.

Despite the fact that this system emulates AD&D multiclassing, not dual classing, it will be termed dual classing to differentiate it from normal 3.5 multiclassing.
Basics
On character creation, a character can decide to be a dual classed character. All dual class characters choose some combination of two base classes; each time they level up, they gain a level in both of their chosen classes. Once a dual class character has chosen those two classes, they cannot be changed. Dual class characters can take levels in other classes, including prestige classes, but if they do so they gain only a single level in that class rather than a level in two classes at once.

Penalties
At 2nd, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, dual classed characters gain a "null level" instead of progressing in their classes as normal. Thus, a dual classed character with ECL 4 would have three class levels in both classes and a null level, while such a character with ECL 9 would have seven class levels in both classes and two null levels. This progression of null levels remains, and continues to increase, as the dual classed character continues to gain levels – even if the character gains levels in other classes than their chosen combination of classes.

Null Levels
A null level increases the character's hit points, skill points, and saving throws as if the character were levelling up in his or her dual class combination, but does not provide any other abilities, including base attack bonus.

Combined Level Mechanics
The key to this system is the idea of levelling up in two classes at once. This does not work exactly like described for gestalt characters in Unearthed Arcana, though it is similar. Use the following rules:
Hit Dice
Roll both class's hit dice and average the results, then apply Constitution modifier as normal.
For example, a sorcerer/bard would roll a d4 and a d6, add the two together and halve that result (rounding down as normal), then add his constitution modifier.
Base Attack Bonus
Average the two classes' progressions using fractional base bonuses (Unearthed Arcana p. 73). For example, that sorcerer/bard would have have the average of 1/2 and 3/4, or 5/8 per level. As always, round all fractions down. For example, a 5th level sorcerer/bard would have a base attack bonus of 3.
Base Saving Throw Bonuses
Average the two classes' progressions using fractional base bonuses.
For example, a 5th level sorcerer/bard would have a base Fort save of 1, a base Reflex save of 2, and a base Will save of 4.
Skills
Average the skill points from each class, then apply Intelligence modifier (and other modifiers) as normal. Any skill which is a class skill for either class is a class skill for the dual class combination. For example, a sorcerer/bard would get 4 + Int modifier skill points per level, and would have all of the class skills of both sorcerers and bards.
Class Features
A multiclass character gains the class features of both classes. Class features that both classes share (such as uncanny dodge), are only gained whenever they would first be acquired. For example, a rogue/barbarian would gain uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge at the same levels as a barbarian would.
For class features that are essentially equivalent to each other, even if they are not exactly the same (sneak attack and sudden strike, for example), the player should choose which version he wishes the character to gain, and then the appropriate class's progression is used.
Spell progressions are tracked separately for each class. Thus, a wizard/cleric would have both wizard spells and cleric spells, and would progress normally in both.

Prime32
2013-04-15, 08:36 PM
one of the main "flaws" of 3.5 multiclassing is that if you want a character that is f.ex. equal part rogue and wizard you give up enough base attack that your sneak attack is very unreliable, your skillpoints must be focused in much fewer skills (giving up versatility) and your spellcasting is so far behind that you can't relly on it in encounters made for your overall level.That's why you have PrCs like arcane trickster, and multiclass feats.

Though the game would benefit if you just made everyone's caster level equal to their character level. I'd say give spellcasters ToB-style multiclassing rules, but that's probably too much (maybe instead give all your spells +1 save DC for every two levels in another class, so your spells are as hard to resist as a single-class caster's).

EDIT:

I truly can't remember having seen feats that even remotely could do what I'm looking for, could you please give a few sources for them?They're mostly in Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel. Swift Hunter (for scout/rangers) is the most famous - ranger levels advance skirmish, scout levels advance favored enemy, and when you skirmish a favored enemy it doesn't count as precision damage. Master Spellthief (for spellthief/anything) lets you stack your levels in all arcane classes for determining all their caster levels, and use your caster level in place of your spellthief level for determining what spells you can steal. Devoted Tracker (for paladin/rangers) lets you designate your special mount as your animal companion, negates the paladin multiclassing rule for ranger levels, and levels in both classes stack for determining smite evil damage and wild empathy.

And then there's feats like Practiced Spellcaster and Natural Bond, which let you count as a few levels higher for a certain class feature as long as it doesn't exceed your character level.

Henlein_Kosh
2013-04-15, 10:54 PM
@Vadskye
I do indeed like your dual class concept, indeed I might choose to use it if I can't get my own concept to function properly, although one of the main ideas, that I'm not willing to give up on yet, of my concept is that the 2 classes don't progress equally.

btw. if you shouldn't have guessed, I love that you have Teal'c as your avatar :smallbiggrin:

@Prime32
I have already covered why I'm not too happy about the PrC aproach to solving my "problem" in a previous post.

I will try to journey into the (for me) dreaded Tome of Battle, and have a look at their multi classing rules, and see if there is something I could use.
The +1 save DC idea has some potential, might use it.

Thanks for giving some sources to the multiclass feats, will look through them.


I have gotten many good suggestions on how else to do what I want to do, but I still haven't got any answers to my main question:


I want your opinion if a character using these rules can be used alongside standard characters without fouling up the game balance completly.

So if anyone would be kind enough to actually answer that, I would be grateful.

Vadskye
2013-04-15, 11:17 PM
Well, let's run a simple comparison comparing a fighter/barbarian to a fighter. Assume the fighter is the primary class. We'll run the comparison at 28,000 XP, which would normally be enough for 8th level.
For this comparison, I will assume each character starts with 10 in every ability score and no special items. Those modifiers are identical for each character anyway, so ignoring them makes the math simpler.

Single Class: Fighter 8
HP 48; Saves 6/2/2
BAB +8; attack bonus +1; damage bonus +1 (from +2 str)
Feats: 3 normal, 5 fighter
Skill points: 22

Multiclass: Fighter 5 (14,000 XP), Barbarian 5 (14,000 XP)
HP 65; Saves 7/3/3
BAB +10
Feats: 2 normal, 3 fighter
Other abilities: rage, other barbarian abilities.
Skill points: 42

Conclusion: This is really weird alongside normal characters. The multiclass has more HP, higher BAB, fewer feats, and way more skill points. I'm not sure it's "overpowered" exactly, but it breaks a lot of normal assumptions about how leveling works. This system doesn't really make a lot of sense, as far as I can tell. Try running more comparisons on your own to test other variations on the leveling rules.

(And I am glad to see you like Teal'c!)

Ihala
2013-04-17, 01:28 AM
I had a similar problem with 3rd edition's multiclassing rules not being quite what I wanted, having come from 1st edition. I like your idea, but I think it diminishes what the new rules got right, which is allowing players more freedom in multiclassing. Your system removes the player's ability to switch classes, at least for his primary class and penalizes him for changing his second class. If you are trying to mimic 1st and 2nd edition as closely as possible I think your system works. However, if you want to keep 3rd edition's flexibility I don't think it works.

The idea that I came up with allows you to take levels in a class without increasing your character level. You don't gain levels by accumulating a certain amount of experience, but rather you purchase a level with experience (thus losing the experience, but gaining a level). The cost of advancing a level is equal to your current level times 1000, just like normal. The level that is advanced can be either your actual Character Level, in which case you also gain a Class Level, just like normal. However you can also spend experience to buy a Class Level without increasing Character Level. The cost is the same, but calculated based on your level within that class, not total Character Level, with a minimum cost of 1000 experience points.

An example would be a character that began as a fighter and has accumulated enough experience to be a 5th level fighter. However he decides that he wants to start studying magic. Rather than waiting to gain 5000 more experience to become a 6th level character and take a level of wizard, he spends 1000 experience points and increases his wizard level from 0 to 1. He is now a Fighter 5/Wizard 1, but his Character Level remains 5.

Now, how does one go about having 6 class levels but only be a 5th level character? By treating him as a partial gestalt character. Our Fighter 5/Wizard 1 would calculate his hit points, base attack, and fortitude saves as a 5th level fighter, but his will save would be calculated as a 1st level wizard/4th level fighter. Skill points would be unchanged though he would now have new class skills (up to 4 ranks) from his Wizard class should he have saved any skill points from previous levels. Reflex save would be the same whether as a Fighter 4/Wizard 1 or Fighter 5. I personally use fractional base attack and saves like Vadskye mentioned and also only allow the 1st level +2 to good saves once per save (and also use spreadsheet character sheets to calculate everything). He would also have all bonus feats, class abilities and spellcasting of a 5th level fighter and a 1st level wizard.

I have yet to use this system beyond level 6 but it seems to work well for my group.