Back-handed Manners?

[SiuiS]

Something I've been noticing more and more over the last decade; people feelin entitled for being polite.

I mean people who say "Thank you" as expected, but who get upset if you don't follow it with a sincere and heartwarming "you're welcome". People who seem to miss they are giving thanks and instead focus on how rude you are for missin the obvious social cue and acknowledging their magnanimous attitude. I've been stopped several times in the last few year for it, with increasing frequency.

I'm a holistic kinda unicorn. Someone says thank you, I will smile, and nod-bow hybrid, nonverbal cues. Or respond with "don't mention it" or "sure thing~!" or similar. Imagine my surprise when someone thanks me for doing them a favor, I smile and nod as they walk away... And they turn, sneer and spit out an acidic "You're supposed to say 'you are welcome. God, how rude!" before stalking off.

Am I the only one seeing this? I wouldn't put it past the universe to single me out for this level of weirdness, but math says I shouldn't be alone.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Do you mean people focused enough on the semantics that they require the exact phrase "You're welcome," or people who simply want an acknowledgement for their own politeness. The latter is more understandable, but as a relatively young person, I don't understand either. Confucius said (but really though) that you ought not worry about others failing to acknowledge you, but instead worry that you fail to acknowledge others. Although, of course, the same applies in reverse, that you ought to just say "Thank you," because it means enough to them that it matters and it's not terribly hard to do.

Generally, I would just say that one should be as polite as possible in any given situation to avoid causing offense, regardless of how irrational that offense may seem.

[Chen]

In my 30+ years on this planet I've never had anyone complain to me about my response to someone saying thank you. Some times I you're welcome or no problem or just give a polite nod. Even in cases where I don't respond at all for whatever reason, I've never had someone call me out on it, let alone someone call me out on not replying to the thank you "properly".

[Komodo]

I was reminded of an incident a relative of mine relayed to me once. Apparently, while out at a post office, she walked through a door a stranger held open for her without saying "thank you." the person in question apparently became quite upset over the matter, to the point of depositing a letter in the parcel drop and rudely asking if she should hold that door open as well. Fortunately, my relative was later able to laugh it off.

I can't say that I've seen this type of behavior often. I do try to be courteous, but now and again you'll miss a "you're welcome" or some other such pleasantry, and statistically that will sometimes happen around someone who genuinely gets offended by that. I can't say for sure if such people are more common currently, but they certainly exist. I don't really remember them though; I don't allot space in my memory banks for such unpleasant encounters, unless they end up being unintentionally amusing.

[SiuiS]

I was reminded of an incident a relative of mine relayed to me once. Apparently, while out at a post office, she walked through a door a stranger held open for her without saying "thank you." the person in question apparently became quite upset over the matter, to the point of depositing a letter in the parcel drop and rudely asking if she should hold that door open as well. Fortunately, my relative was later able to laugh it off.

I've had that happen, but was able to resolve it.


VeisuItaTyhjyys, I usually, as I said, bow and smile wordlessly. Givin someone my full attention is acknowledgement; the person was upset I did not say the words "you're welcome".

[Mono Vertigo]

I consider politeness applies not just to the initial action, but also to the reaction.
If you feel the need to get angry at people for not replying "you're welcome" to your "thank you", then you are not being polite.

[Jay R]

I recommend that you let it go.

I do not thank people to test how polite they are, but to show how polite I am. Similarly, I do not say "You're welcome", verbally or non-verbally, to test their response to it, but to respond politely myself.

Either it is, or it is not, acceptable to critique somebody's response to a polite gesture. If it is, then they have every right to critique your response to their thanks, just as you have every right to critique their response to your non-verbal welcome.

But if you think it is unreasonable for them to critique your response, then it is equally unreasonable for you to critique their response.

I have enough to do to watch my own manners; I have no time to police the manners of others. (And this applies equally to critiquing their response to my thanks, or their response to my not verbal welcome.)

[angrymudcrab]

I haven't really encountered this, but I live in SW Virginia, so it is pretty much a reflex for everyone to be hyper polite. If someone says "Bless your/his/her heart." directed at you, it means you screwed up, but everyone is being too polite to openly call you on it. Basically, around here if people stop being polite it means a fight is imminent. As to the situation described in the first post, the person calling you rude strikes me as the one being rude. You did them a favour, you acknowledged their thanks, and even if they didn't feel it was acknowledged as well as they would like, you don't call someone who just did you a favour rude to their faces for something so trivial. It is something expressed mentally or muttered once you are out of earshot. They are the ones being petty and rude.

[Krade]

I work in a grocery store. I once had a customer have a complete meltdown at me for not saying 'thank you' at the end of our transaction (it's habit now, but this was closer to when I first started). I was literally struck dumb as she ranted, demanding for me to thank her for her business and apologize. There were no words. I could not speak because the whole time it was going on all I could think was, "She isn't serious. She can't be serious. This is a joke and we'll be laughing about it any second now."

She then ranted at the assistant manager for FIFTEEN MINUTES about how absolutely awful I am. To his credit, he didn't feel the need to even bring it up to me afterwards, so at least there's that.

[TaiLiu]

VeisuItaTyhjyys, I usually, as I said, bow and smile wordlessly. Givin someone my full attention is acknowledgement; the person was upset I did not say the words "you're welcome".
I usually do the same thing, but I've never been rebuked for it. :smallconfused:

[Anteros]

It's situational. Sometimes it really is appropriate to verbally respond to another person's politeness. Generally people will not call you out on it if you fail to do so...but they do notice it, and it does change the way they perceive you. It's simply human nature.

[Jay R]

VeisuItaTyhjyys, I usually, as I said, bow and smile wordlessly. Givin someone my full attention is acknowledgement; the person was upset I did not say the words "you're welcome".

Then say the words. It costs nothing, and makes somebody happy. Why not?

[Ozfer]

What bothers me is when people get really worked up over sending and receiving thank you notes, no matter the context. I vote that we abandon society as we know it and start a new era of being nice for the sake of being nice (Of course, sending out thank you notes is never a bad thing).

[Kindablue]

Once upon a time in China, some believe around the year one double aught-three, head priest of the White Lotus Clan, Pai Mei, was walking down a road contemplating whatever it is that a man of Pai Mei's infinite powers would contemplate--which is another way of saying, "Who knows?"--when a Shaolin monk appeared on the road, traveling in the opposite direction. As the monk and the priest crossed paths, Pai Mei, in a practically unfathomable display of generosity, gave the monk the slightest of nods.

The nod was not returned.

So began the Massacre of the Shaolin Temple.

[Amidus Drexel]

Am I the only one seeing this? I wouldn't put it past the universe to single me out for this level of weirdness, but math says I shouldn't be alone.

It doesn't happen to me often, but I see it happen to other people every once in a while. It's pretty annoying.


If someone says "Bless your/his/her heart." directed at you, it means you screwed up, but everyone is being too polite to openly call you on it.

Quoted for truth.

@v Hrm? No need to be sad over that... It's just a polite way of insulting people. :smallamused:

[TaiLiu]

Quoted for truth.
:smallfrown:

[Logic]

Shouldn't a smile and a nod be an acceptable substitute for "you're welcome?"

I consider myself polite, and if I were called out on not specifically saying "you're welcome," I would have no problem telling such a person how rude it was to require an acknowledgement of their manners.

[Kneenibble]

To play devil's advocate: if you are truly interested in being polite, and you notice a trivial behaviour consistently offending people, you should probably change that behaviour.

[Aedilred]

Then say the words. It costs nothing, and makes somebody happy. Why not?
Because you don't know if they're the sort of person who's going to flip out about your not saying it until they've flipped out about your not saying it?

Shouldn't a smile and a nod be an acceptable substitute for "you're welcome?"I've always thought so. But then I find in many situations where you're dealing with someone you wouldn't otherwise be speaking to (holding the door for a stranger, etc.) a smile and a nod serves as adequate thanks itself, not just thanks for the thanks. Of course, "you're welcome" has never really caught on over here, and, in London at least, speaking to strangers without good reason is considered a bit weird. Frankly, they should be "grateful" for eye contact.

(And, of course, to pick someone else up on anything less than an egregious breach of etiquette, especially in a public environment, would be considered in itself something of a breach of etiquette.)

Really, what is thanks other than an acknowledgement that the person has gone slightly out of their way to do you a favour? How that is expressed is pretty immaterial to me. When it comes to thanks for thanks, it's even less important.

[Socratov]

To play devil's advocate: if you are truly interested in being polite, and you notice a trivial behaviour consistently offending people, you should probably change that behaviour.

true, to some extent, but I was always taught that politeness is something you give, not enforce. I mean if I say "Thank you" I don't expect anything in return, but I do like to hear a "you're welcome" or something similar. If people don't say it, let them. I mean in that case I can clearly have my ego revel in me being more polite (and in my mind thus superior, yeah, I have a weird and funny mind:smallsmile:).

One thing you can keep in mind though, some people would very much like to see peasants groveling at their feet in awe and gratitude becuase they deigned themselves bored enough to give those people attention (ok, slight hyperbole, but still)...

[factotum]

I always think that acknowledging politeness is itself a polite thing to do. Doesn't mean I'm going to chase after the miscreant and give them a good thrashing if they fail to do so, of course! :smallwink:

[Anarion]

It depends on the context. The whole thing is a sort of social dance and the same words have different meanings in different contexts. A casual act followed by a thank you and a you're welcome is a series of formalities and the "rude" person (relatively speaking) is whoever misses the formalities first.

On the other hand, if you actually did something really great for someone and they say thank you, a lack of response from you might still leave the social scale tipped in your favor.

Here's a couple of examples for context:
1. Someone holds the door for you, you say thank you, they turn away without answering. You might be a little annoyed that they treated you impolitely, despite holding the door. Like you weren't really worth their time after all.
2. Someone gives you $1000. You say thank you, they turn away without answering. They might come off as a tad cold, but you still have a great deal of gratitude in that situation.

[Hyde]

I usually answer "How are you?" or some other inquisitive greeting with "how's it going?"

So I never really answer the initial question, and no one calls me on it because it was never an inquiry in the first place, merely a placeholder for some non-ism. My best friend is the only one who's noticed, and it simultaneously cracks him up that I do it/drives him nuts that nobody seems to notice.

Personally, our conversational structures that we have in lieu of an actual exchange of information annoy the piss out of me, so I take every opportunity to subvert them. I could probably write a paper, who knows.

You probably know a guy who doesn't speak in words as much as he does soundbites. His sentences are just phrasal nonsense approximating meaning.
I'm excited about it, I look at it as a challenge, but at the same time, I know there is distinct possibility for utter failure. I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I think we can make it work, at least for a time. "by any stretch" is an idiom, so fine, we can give it a pass. But I don't think the words "distinct", "possibility", "utter", and "failure" exist in this friend of mine's vocabulary except in those constructs.

Anyway, these people have a tendency to use a lot of words to say very little (I appreciate the irony in that sentence).

[Anarion]

Anyway, these people have a tendency to use a lot of words to say very little (I appreciate the irony in that sentence).

If you've never taken the opportunity to tell someone "More matter with less art" you are missing out on a great Shakespearean insult.

[Krade]

If you've never taken the opportunity to tell someone "More matter with less art" you are missing out on a great Shakespearean insult.

Relevant:
http://www.rockpapercynic.com/strips/2013-02-07.jpg

[Hyde]

If you've never taken the opportunity to tell someone "More matter with less art" you are missing out on a great Shakespearean insult.
That's a pretty good one.

[chrismorries]

I recommend that you let it go.

I do not thank people to test how polite they are, but to show how polite I am. Similarly, I do not say "You're welcome", verbally or non-verbally, to test their response to it, but to respond politely myself.

:smallsmile:

[Brother Oni]

Of course, "you're welcome" has never really caught on over here, and, in London at least, speaking to strangers without good reason is considered a bit weird. Frankly, they should be "grateful" for eye contact.

I suspect there may be some odd cultural thing specific to the US.

I agree that in the UK, 'you're welcome' has never caught on and a simple 'thanks' is usually enough when acknowledging when a stranger does a small favour for you, or at the end of a transaction with a cashier.

[Jay R]

Shouldn't a smile and a nod be an acceptable substitute for "you're welcome?"

Depending on the smile and nod, and the person receiving it, I would think so. Usually.

But that guess has been disproven. The OP has noticed that his smile and nod haven't been acceptable. Is that because the people are sight-impaired? Because he's doing it too late when they aren't looking? Because they are too used to a specific verbal cue and therefore didn't notice the other? Because they are trying to be jerks?

I don't know. You don't know. The OP doesn't know.

All we know for certain is that the substitute he's trying to make isn't working. If he is doing it to politely acknowledge their thanks, then it failed.

The solution is to use something else.

The reason to be polite is to make people feel better. If the intended polite act didn't make people feel better, then it failed.

Why is this hard?

[Chen]

Depending on the smile and nod, and the person receiving it, I would think so. Usually.

But that guess has been disproven. The OP has noticed that his smile and nod haven't been acceptable. Is that because the people are sight-impaired? Because he's doing it too late when they aren't looking? Because they are too used to a specific verbal cue and therefore didn't notice the other? Because they are trying to be jerks?

I don't know. You don't know. The OP doesn't know.

All we know for certain is that the substitute he's trying to make isn't working. If he is doing it to politely acknowledge their thanks, then it failed.

The solution is to use something else.

The reason to be polite is to make people feel better. If the intended polite act didn't make people feel better, then it failed.

Why is this hard?

The decision to be polite is not necessarily done in a vacuum. The simple act of not accepting a response that would generally be considered polite (or you consider polite) may in fact change whether I want to be polite to that person or not. If someone is so stuck up that I have to respond in a particular, specific way for them to accept it as polite, then I don't necessarily feel that person is worthy of me being polite to them.

[Finlam]

Depending on the smile and nod, and the person receiving it, I would think so. Usually.

On that note....has anyone else been reminded of Pai Mei (http://killbill.wikia.com/wiki/Pai_Mei)?

Consequently, SiuiS, I recommend that the next time you experience back handed manners, you perform the five-point-palm-exploding-heart technique on them.

[SiuiS]

I recommend that you let it go.

I do not thank people to test how polite they are, but to show how polite I am. Similarly, I do not say "You're welcome", verbally or non-verbally, to test their response to it, but to respond politely myself.

Either it is, or it is not, acceptable to critique somebody's response to a polite gesture. If it is, then they have every right to critique your response to their thanks, just as you have every right to critique their response to your non-verbal welcome.

But if you think it is unreasonable for them to critique your response, then it is equally unreasonable for you to critique their response.

I have enough to do to watch my own manners; I have no time to police the manners of others. (And this applies equally to critiquing their response to my thanks, or their response to my not verbal welcome.)

Mmm. I see what you mean but I find this to be a fallacy, the two are not equatable by their nature. the difference is the sense of entitlement.


I usually do the same thing, but I've never been rebuked for it. :smallconfused:

I've been teased, once, by a southern belle with crinkled eyes who stopped and gave me a very obvious 'Namaste' in return, but I think it was all in good fun. I was dressed down, so she probably assumed I was a new-age hippy putting on airs.
Which in retrospect isn't innacurate... :smalltongue:


Then say the words. It costs nothing, and makes somebody happy. Why not?

Assumptions. Why does it not cost? How do I know it makes someone happy?

setting aside that this is the internet and most people default to self-centered, entitled and whiny, I would like to think that the very nature of my being confused that I did not welcome someone enough for them thanking me - essentially, that I did not thank them for thanking me, which is ridiculous in most scenarios - would be the cue necessary to show that this was not a situation of me simply not being welcomeful enough.


To play devil's advocate: if you are truly interested in being polite, and you notice a trivial behaviour consistently offending people, you should probably change that behaviour.

This is truth, and thank you for it. I do try with most things, but this one thing, specifically "you're welcome", I am perplexed by; Rather than a continual behavior, it has happened three times, and stuck with me.

I also still feel i should appologize to a coworker from six years ago for an offhand comment that was, in retrospect, much ruder than I had intended. These things stick to me.

It isn't even triggered by an action on my part half the time. I have told a person "it was my pleasure, think nothing of it" and they said, with the cold hard stare of the self-righteous, "you're supposed to say 'you're welcome'!", where most people prefer getting an actual response which addresses them and the actions performed. It has happened to me three times, the third being much like the first, only the gent had begun to power walk to the exit before I could even give him his change (let alone a 'you're welcome').

Anything else, much more fluid. But 'thank you' must be met with 'you're welcome', or you are some sort of reprobate? It is a mystery.


Depending on the smile and nod, and the person receiving it, I would think so. Usually.

But that guess has been disproven. The OP has noticed that her smile and nod haven't been acceptable. Is that because the people are sight-impaired? Because she's doing it too late when they aren't looking? Because they are too used to a specific verbal cue and therefore didn't notice the other? Because they are trying to be jerks?

I don't know. You don't know. The OP doesn't know.

All we know for certain is that the substitute he's trying to make isn't working. If she is doing it to politely acknowledge their thanks, then it failed.

The solution is to use something else.

The reason to be polite is to make people feel better. If the intended polite act didn't make people feel better, then it failed.

Why is this hard?

Ah, no. I am narcissistic to the point of solipsism at times. My motivations are almost entirely internal, thereby; I don not thank people or respond with politeness because it makes other people feel better. I do it because it is part of who I am, and makes me feel better.

There was no attempt at a substitute, because that would require me to have known I was changing the winning formula. And there is something in "If she is doing it to politely acknowledge their thanks, then it failed" that you miss; It was sufficient acknowledgement of their thanks, the thanking was acknowledged. That was not what they were after. I cannot guess what they were after, perhaps good old time manners like they had back as a child? Perhaps a reinforcement of cultural norms, expecting a certain solidarity from fellow caucasians? Perhaps simply a validation of their worldview in a stressful time?

But I cannot say, in these situations as presented, that it was the welcomer who was at fault. And rather than no one being at fault, it was an accident, etc., I can say with certainty that the thanker was, indeed, at fault.

This of course belies situations where there is an expected and understood shift in culture, such as a businesss meeting, where certain forms of communication are allowed and deviation is considered poor form. "You are very welcome, sir/madam" cannot be substituted, as you say, in a board room with nearly as much applomb.


On that note....has anyone else been reminded of Pai Mei (http://killbill.wikia.com/wiki/Pai_Mei)?

Consequently, SiuiS, I recommend that the next time you experience back handed manners, you perform the five-point-palm-exploding-heart technique on them.

Nah, man, no. Even joking, thinking about causing actual harm to people nowadays makes me physically ill and kinda sad.

[PlusSixPelican]

Ah. If someone feels entitled to my politeness, they'll just lose further access to it, because me being a friendly little butterfly is a privilege, not a right.

And on the Southern 'politeness', I've always been creeped the heck out by it, it feels unnatural to say, "Bless his/her/hir/etc heart." when you mean, "What a butt." It's just creepy. Brr.

[Jay R]

Mmm. I see what you mean but I find this to be a fallacy, the two are not equatable by their nature. the difference is the sense of entitlement.

Are you referring to their sense of entitlement to a verbal "You're welcome" or your sense of entitlement to a correct response to your nod and bow?

[Aedilred]

Are you referring to their sense of entitlement to a verbal "You're welcome" or your sense of entitlement to a correct response to your nod and bow?
The former, surely, since the latter isn't assuming an entitlement to a response at all.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I've had that happen, but was able to resolve it.


VeisuItaTyhjyys, I usually, as I said, bow and smile wordlessly. Givin someone my full attention is acknowledgement; the person was upset I did not say the words "you're welcome".

While that seems silly, I suppose I would just start saying "You're welcome" in the interest of not causing others offense, however trivial the source of their offense may seem. It's not terribly hard to do and evidently matters quite a lot to them.

[Jay R]

Ah, no. I am narcissistic to the point of solipsism at times. My motivations are almost entirely internal,...

Then stop being motivated by the externality of this other person's reaction.

I repeat, let it go. You are giving them space in your head.

[SiuiS]

Are you referring to their sense of entitlement to a verbal "You're welcome" or your sense of entitlement to a correct response to your nod and bow?

There was no sense of entitlement on my part? I feel like you're trying to justify a position that doesn't exist.


Then stop being motivated by the externality of this other person's reaction.

I repeat, let it go. You are giving them space in your head.

That is terribly hypocritical of you. I shouldn't give other people consideration, but I should be considerate of others and just go with the flow?

I'm not torn up about this perosn who will never pass through my store again, luv. I am however concerned that the ambient vectors of socioemotional connection are shifting in a way i am not privy to, and am trying to verify via external cporrespondence whether or not such an action is an anomaly, an outlier, or an expectation because each has it's own variable sequence. I am sovereign unto myself, but that doesn't mean I should forsake others and be a dink. Nor des it mean I should be completely beholden to others. I am extending my capacity for courtesy and my capacity for premeditation into the same arena. I do not know why it troubles you so much you feel you need to attribute to me some social failing.

[Jay R]

There was no sense of entitlement on my part? I feel like you're trying to justify a position that doesn't exist.

Well, SOMEbody felt entitled to a positive, or at least a neutral, response to his head nod.


That is terribly hypocritical of you. I shouldn't give other people consideration, but I should be considerate of others and just go with the flow?

That's not what hypocritical means. A hypocrite who expects others to follow rules that he doesn't follow himself. In you position, I would let it go. That's what I'm advising you to do.

You first resisted doing so on the ground of politeness. I showed that politeness doesn't justify your behavior. Then you claimed that you were driven only by internal motivations. So I responded to the new direction.


I'm not torn up about this perosn who will never pass through my store again, luv. I am however concerned that the ambient vectors of socioemotional connection are shifting in a way i am not privy to, and am trying to verify via external cporrespondence whether or not such an action is an anomaly, an outlier, or an expectation because each has it's own variable sequence.

Oh, OK. Here's the answer: it is not an anomaly, an outlier, or an expectation. It's not even a shift. The usual response to "Thank you" is "You're welcome", just like it's been for my entire lifetime. Other forms can be used, if they successfully communicate to the specific person in front of you. But it is not the fault of that person if the alternate form you use doesn't communicate to that person.

Why didn't it work with that person? I don't know. He or she might not have been looking, or might not have noticed, or it might mean something different to him or her. The observable fact is this: whether you intended to or not, you did not in fact communicate an acknowledgement of thanks to that person.


I am sovereign unto myself, but that doesn't mean I should forsake others and be a dink. Nor des it mean I should be completely beholden to others. I am extending my capacity for courtesy and my capacity for premeditation into the same arena. I do not know why it troubles you so much you feel you need to attribute to me some social failing.

I'm not attributing a social failing. I am consistently offering the only course of action that might help: let it go. This is not a social trend, this is a moment of non-communication. If it's happening to you a lot, and not to anybody else here, then the cause might be your unique response to a "Thank you".

Either accept the observed fact that your nod doesn't always communicate, or do something else that does.

[Aedilred]

Well, SOMEbody felt entitled to a positive, or at least a neutral, response to his head nod.
I... don't think that's how entitlement works. Well, not unless you want it to be denuded of all meaning.

For instance, do you think that as a result of your post just now, you'll be permabanned from the forum, and then your house raided by the FBI and your computer confiscated? No? Well, you obviously feel entitled to a response other than that, etc..

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I don't really think that's true; the line between "reasonable expectations" and "a sense of entitlement" is already drawn wholly subjectively and almost entirely arbitrarily. Someone drawing it in a different spot than you isn't really the same as removing it entirely, nor does it denude the word of its meaning. It means he doesn't think it's necessarily reasonable to expect a positive response to a head nod. It does not mean that he doesn't think there are no reasonable expectations.