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View Full Version : Giving players control of a campaigns starting point



Darwin
2013-04-15, 05:09 AM
A thought ocurred to me while prepping for a new campaign after a TPK last session. What would happen if I gave my players a choice of where to start the campaign. We're all dead tired of the "you all meet in a tavern" trope, and while scouring my mind for alternatives I started to think that maybe it would be better for the players to decide for themselves, and possibly even come up with their own reasons for being where they decide to start.

I'm currently preparing to run Caverns of Thracia with an aztec vs. spain twist, so maybe I could give the players a choice of starting at:

At port, must assemble ship and crew for the journey over sea
On the boat, couple of days sailing away from the settlement
In the settlement, ransom papers in hand
Directly in the dungeon, by falling through a pit while wandering the jungle


I'd like some thoughts about positive and/or negative consequences by doing this.

DigoDragon
2013-04-15, 07:10 AM
What would happen if I gave my players a choice of where to start the campaign.

I've never tried it, but I don't see much consequence of it. It might be useful to get that first session of introductions rolling a lot faster so the party can get at the meat of the adventure.

Totally Guy
2013-04-15, 07:46 AM
I'm a fan of prepping situations that are tied to who the characters are.

Rhynn
2013-04-15, 08:14 AM
There are many approaches to creating games and campaigns at the table. If everyone's primed for it and willing, you can create entire campaign settings (or run games) as an entirely cooperative effort. This seems easily feasible, although the more choice you give, the more you'll need to prep.

Honestly, a choice of 1. ship, 2. docks, 3. tavern, 4. dungeon isn't very much of a one, though. What's the impact going to be? I don't see any obvious consequences to the choice, unless you craft some. ("They have to roleplay more before they get to the action" isn't a consequence of any consequence.) If they're going to end up in the dungeon anyway, it's not like we're talking an open scenario.


I'm a fan of prepping situations that are tied to who the characters are.

I prefer the "tell me why your group is together, then make your characters" and the "this is why your group is together, now make your characters" approaches.

More relatedly, though, this is sort of relevant for sandbox campaigns like I like to run. If I've got the whole of the Savage North or the Tablelands created, I can just ask the PCs, "who are you, where, and why are you together?" then run with that. Sure, I'll need to flesh out their starting settlement fast - but I'd have to flesh out any settlements during play as they get to them, anyway. (And if I'm smart, I've got a lot of tables and other material prepped that can be used for any settlement with changes on the fly.)

valadil
2013-04-15, 08:14 AM
I'm totally in favor. As I pointed out in another recent thread, I also advocate giving them control mid campaign (http://gm.sagotsky.com/?p=265).

I've never outright given the group control over the beginning. But I've given individual players some say in how things start. What I like doing when there's time is roleplaying one on one with each PC, having them meet up into teams and then eventually into the party. This doesn't really let them determine where they meet, but it lets eahc player determine how they got to the meeting point.

Darwin
2013-04-15, 09:56 AM
Honestly, a choice of 1. ship, 2. docks, 3. tavern, 4. dungeon isn't very much of a one, though. What's the impact going to be? I don't see any obvious consequences to the choice, unless you craft some. ("They have to roleplay more before they get to the action" isn't a consequence of any consequence.) If they're going to end up in the dungeon anyway, it's not like we're talking an open scenario.


The consequences might not be immediately obvious, but they are there. Sticking to this example: choosing to start at the port looking for a ship would mean the first session or two will be city based, feature moderate to lots of roleplaying, and some money will probaly have to be risen. Should they choose to start on the boat mid-ocean the game will be about resource management and likely ship battles. Option 3 puts them at liberty to roleplay again, this but this time with information gathering and henchmen recruitment in focus. Option 4 gives them pure dungeon crawling without all the hassle.

My players don't really care for sandbox games, they actually prefer clear goals and set paths (believe it or not). I'm not really here to discuss sandbox vs. railroad anyway, but I might as well point that out.

Barsoom
2013-04-15, 04:11 PM
I have given my players a similar choice. They were like "eh, let's just meet in a tavern". <seinfeld>Not that there's anything wrong with that</seinfeld>

thethird
2013-04-15, 04:15 PM
A thought ocurred to me while prepping for a new campaign after a TPK last session. What would happen if I gave my players a choice of where to start the campaign. We're all dead tired of the "you all meet in a tavern" trope, and while scouring my mind for alternatives I started to think that maybe it would be better for the players to decide for themselves, and possibly even come up with their own reasons for being where they decide to start.

I'm currently preparing to run Caverns of Thracia with an aztec vs. spain twist, so maybe I could give the players a choice of starting at:

At port, must assemble ship and crew for the journey over sea
On the boat, couple of days sailing away from the settlement
In the settlement, ransom papers in hand
Directly in the dungeon, by falling through a pit while wandering the jungle


I'd like some thoughts about positive and/or negative consequences by doing this.

I normally do this, even when I do this explicitly I will do a light infodump at the beginning to set the tone of the campaign and then flashforward to where they feel comfortable and I feel that I haven't skipped anything important.

The story more or less shapes itself from there.

Also... if you are giving Aztecs vs Spanish a spin could you share some DM notes? :smallsmile: I'm interested in seeing portrayals of Spanish in fantasy.

puctheplayfull
2013-04-15, 04:49 PM
My players don't really care for sandbox games, they actually prefer clear goals and set paths (believe it or not). I'm not really here to discuss sandbox vs. railroad anyway, but I might as well point that out.

If they are going to end up in the dungeon regardless, then only real consequences to letting them choose when/where they start is a change in how much prep you have to do, and how much experience/advancement they can accomplish prior to entering the dungeon. It may change the way the game is initially played, but from what you have said, the end result is still a dungeon crawl. From your example, the first option would require the most prep as a GM (the starting city, the ocean voyage, the story on the docks and finally the dungeon), and gives them the most opportunities for advancement prior to entering the dungeon. The last means all you really need to prep is the dungeon, but, depending on how you start their characters, they may not be as ready for it.

Rhynn
2013-04-15, 11:03 PM
The consequences might not be immediately obvious, but they are there. Sticking to this example: choosing to start at the port looking for a ship would mean the first session or two will be city based, feature moderate to lots of roleplaying, and some money will probaly have to be risen. Should they choose to start on the boat mid-ocean the game will be about resource management and likely ship battles. Option 3 puts them at liberty to roleplay again, this but this time with information gathering and henchmen recruitment in focus. Option 4 gives them pure dungeon crawling without all the hassle.

Ah, okay. So you're actually changing the entire contents of the adventure(s) based on where they want to start. I wasn't envisioning adding entire sessions based on the decision. That makes sense. It's going to be a different experience, even if the end result is mostly the same every time.

Technically, I guess, you're saying "I've prepared all this" (unless you're going to get their decision first, then do all your prep?), "how much of it do you want to cut out?"

Darwin
2013-04-16, 07:16 AM
Technically, I guess, you're saying "I've prepared all this" (unless you're going to get their decision first, then do all your prep?), "how much of it do you want to cut out?"

Yes. That is exactly where we're at! :smallsmile: I did intend to ask them before doing any major prepwork, as there's no point in prepping sailors and oceanic encounters if they opt to begin the campaign directly inside the dungeon.

That being said, the port town is already an established part of the world from the previous campaign, this (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.dk/2011/04/wavecrawl-kit.html) would give me as many sessions worth of seafaring content as I'd want in minutes, and the settlement near the dungeon will have to be statted up anyway for when the players eventually return from the dungeon for resting. Prepwork isn't any major concern.


Also... if you are giving Aztecs vs Spanish a spin could you share some DM notes? I'm interested in seeing portrayals of Spanish in fantasy.

Happily. Right now I'm focusing on blending in aztec/inca elements with the death cultists on the upper floor of the dungeon. I had a gripe with the aesthetics of plate-armored feudal knights in an underground cavern setting, and I wanted them to have more of a tribal feel.

Deepbluediver
2013-04-16, 10:00 AM
The DM I used to game with insisted that everyone have their main character concept laid out at least a week ahead of time so he could approve everything, and so that players didn't show up with completely incompatible characters from the get-go.

Frequently, he would ask US to come up with a reason for while we all knew each other and where working together, so even if we started in a tavern the backstory wasn't because we met there.

Yora
2013-04-16, 10:09 AM
I always give my players almost complete free choice about anything in the campaign before we start, except narrowing it down to two or three settings I would like to run.
Goal, location, party background, campaign theme, anything!

However, the reply has always been exactly the same, from the 15 or so people I've ever run games for: "I'm okay with anything you pick for us."
Same thing with providing background information for the players to read. They don't. For most players, time spend on the game extends from when everyone sits down at the table until they get up after the session, and possibly planning a character build. But since parameters are usually set during the pregame session, which is done quickly because they have no imput on the question what they want to play, character creation usually happens there as well.
I've met one or two people who had some interest in the game while they were not currently playing, but usually you have to assume that nobody will do anything unless you ask "what do your characters do?" and "roll the dice".

Darwin
2013-04-16, 10:10 AM
The DM I used to game with insisted that everyone have their main character concept laid out at least a week ahead of time so he could approve everything, and so that players didn't show up with completely incompatible characters from the get-go.

Frequently, he would ask US to come up with a reason for while we all knew each other and where working together, so even if we started in a tavern the backstory wasn't because we met there.

A few years ago I was the player who wrote multiple page backstories for my characters. One day I realized that nobody cared about what my character was before, the only stories told at the table was of those characters who actually managed to accomplish something noteworthy during the campaign. My players are with me on that one. In addition to that, we play Labyrinth Lord, and the lethality is so damn high that writing more than two sentences of backstory is probaly a waste of your time.

Darwin
2013-04-16, 10:11 AM
I always give my players almost complete free choice about anything in the campaign before we start, except narrowing it down to two or three settings I would like to run.
Goal, location, party background, campaign theme, anything!

However, the reply has always been exactly the same, from the 15 or so people I've ever run games for: "I'm okay with anything you pick for us."
Same thing with providing background information for the players to read. They don't. For most players, time spend on the game extends from when everyone sits down at the table until they get up after the session, and possibly planning a character build. But since parameters are usually set during the pregame session, which is done quickly because they have no imput on the question what they want to play, character creation usually happens there as well.
I've met one or two people who had some interest in the game while they were not currently playing, but usually you have to assume that nobody will do anything unless you ask "what do your characters do?" and "roll the dice".

Seconded. This is the kind of players I have at my table.

Edit: And that's not a bad thing.

Trekkin
2013-04-16, 10:18 AM
I tried something like this a few times. The best way I've found to implement it is this:

Start with a list of things the party might be, other than "adventurers". Could they be troubadours? Merchants? Traveling botanists? Verbose as I am, I tend to end up with a sentence of description for each thing I can see having a reason to interact with the campaign.

Whatever I end up figuring I can work with, I hand to them in list form and ask them to agree on what one thing to pick from it. While they make characters to fit that concept, I work on fitting that concept into the campaign start.

In general it seems to work well for some groups; if no one cares to pick, one can always just roll on the list. It hits a sort of sweet spot for certain groups; it gives them enough direction to work with without hemming them in. It also lets them have met each other beforehand and have a reason to care about each other, which I've always struggled to establish.

Jay R
2013-04-16, 10:18 AM
The advantage is that they get the kind of start they like, and none of what they consider padding.

The drawback is that the opportunities to provide a great unexpected surprise have been lessened.

If you have no potentially plot-changing surprise in the early parts, don't ask them; just skip it. Move on to where the story actually starts.