[PF] Longbow vs Shortbow

[The Boz]

Is it just me, or is the "can be used while mounted" the only thing that's keeping a shortbow being just outright outclassed by a longbow? Is there something I don't know?

[Giarc]

Well, there is the composite longbow that can also be used while mounted, but needs a minimum amount of str depending on how good it is or you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls with it.

[Kudaku]

Description: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted.

The default composite longbow requires a str modifier of +0, so if you have 10 or more strength there isn't really ever a reason to use a shortbow instead of a longbow.

Possible house rules ahoy folks.
That having been said, I have a hard time seeing someone use a composite longbow while riding without specialized training - maybe require the Mounted Archery feat before you can use a composite longbow from horseback?

[Dekion]

As far as the base longbow and shortbow, I would say yes. And Giarc is correct, the composite longbow can be used while mounted, as can, traditionally, the daikyu, which is the Asian equivalent of the longbow. But the primary reasons that I think a shortbow would ever be chosen over a longbow are cost (a longbow is 150% more expensive than a shortbow) and proficiency (some classes do not receive proficiency in the longbow, but do for the shortbow, rogues for example.)

[Slipperychicken]

But the primary reasons that I think a shortbow would ever be chosen over a longbow are cost (a longbow is 150% more expensive than a shortbow) and proficiency (some classes do not receive proficiency in the longbow, but do for the shortbow, rogues for example.)

Seconded. It's a weapon for peasants and conscripts, not adventurers. It fits their needs by being cheaper and requiring less training. The shortbow's inexpensiveness (in both gold and learning-costs) leaves their limited feats and finances open for things important to their everyday lives (like Skill Focus and Artisan's Tools).

[The Boz]

Excellent, thanks for the answers. I was half afraid there was some kind of hidden penalty somewhere that I wasn't seeing.
Also, I don't think proficiency is that big of a deal, racial weapon familiarity is handed out like candy.

[Zubrowka74]

Just some thoughts about size. The daikyu is specifically designed to be used on horseback, with an off center grip. I cant really picture a 6 foot bow, composite or not, used by a mounted archer but eh, it's RAW. Short bows are also... shorter, and lighter. That would make sense to choose it over the long version from a thief / rogue / ninja perspective. Situationnal, though, 'cause you wont be shooting bows in cramped space every day.

[The Boz]

Houserule: Longbows get a -2 in cramped spaces like dungeon corridors and such.
Y/N?

[ericgrau]

You already get a -4 to attacks in tight spaces in both melee and ranged. And the standard 5 foot wide corridor is quite roomy not tight, so I wouldn't apply the penalty to that either.

For a low ceiling yet wide walls, sure, why not. I'd apply that on the fly under the -2/+2 DM fudge rule. But that seems rare.

[Than]

Historically shortbows were just "bows" until the invention of the longbow which was used to pierce armor. Never neglect your fluff.

[Slipperychicken]

You already get a -4 to attacks in tight spaces in both melee and ranged. And the standard 5 foot wide corridor is quite roomy not tight, so I wouldn't apply the penalty to that either.


Agreed. People forget how much space a 5x5ft cube is. I think it's because the miniatures tend to be disproportionately large, so people think of it more like a 3ft space.

[JusticeZero]

All the weapons are wonky. There are things that were goofy when Gygax put them in which were heightened by conversion to 3.0 by people who knew nothing about weapons, then made even more ridiculous by artifacts of transferring things from "we have a variety of weapon sizes" to "we have a lot of different sized weapons that can be expanded or shrunk". If the difference between short and long bows is what's making you scratch your head, you haven't studied up on weapons. iirc, there is a difference there because longbows were too big to be used by halflings and gnomes in 2.0 and 3.0.

[Spiryt]

You already get a -4 to attacks in tight spaces in both melee and ranged. And the standard 5 foot wide corridor is quite roomy not tight, so I wouldn't apply the penalty to that either.


Well.... how?

I couldn't even stretch my arms a lot in 5 foot wide corridor, and I'm not the largest of men, to say at least...

Five foot wide space is definitely to tight for any effective hacking, polearms, and generally a lot of movement.

Bow could be hard to operate in it as well, although shooting itself shouldn't be a problem, I guess.


Seconded. It's a weapon for peasants and conscripts, not adventurers. It fits their needs by being cheaper and requiring less training. The shortbow's inexpensiveness (in both gold and learning-costs) leaves their limited feats and finances open for things important to their everyday lives (like Skill Focus and Artisan's Tools).

I'm pretty sure that in PF both longbow and shortbow have absolutely no difference in "learning cost"... They're both martial.

[ericgrau]

I'm pretty sure that in PF both longbow and shortbow have absolutely no difference in "learning cost"... They're both martial.
Rogues and bards both get shortbow proficiency, but not longbow. It is a great way for a ranged rogue to save a feat on rapid reload.

Sure most serious archers are other classes and use longbows, but that's what you'd expect.

[Spiryt]

Historically shortbows were just "bows" until the invention of the longbow which was used to pierce armor. Never neglect your fluff.

Except that 'longbow' was around long before there was any armor, so that's not very good fluff. :smallwink:

This guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi) had an longbow, and then longbow had been around everywhere where selfbows were popular.

In huge shortcut, there's little reason to make shortbow out of single piece of wood, unless one wants to spend really long time designing and carving it.

Otherwise it won'be very dynamic at all.

That's why all kind of wooden selfbows tended to be long, if people making said bows had access to suitable pieces of wood, obviously.

[Zubrowka74]

This guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi) had an longbow

What ? A lich with a bow ?! This is sooo sub-optimal!

But more seriously I think they used the english longbowmen as a reference. Otzi's bow was likely little more than a 6 foot branch and a string. Yes there was large bows before, just not speciffically the model they used at Agincourt, for example.

[Spiryt]

What ? A lich with a bow ?! This is sooo sub-optimal!

But more seriously I think they used the english longbowmen as a reference. Otzi's bow was likely little more than a 6 foot branch and a string. Yes there was large bows before, just not speciffically the model they used at Agincourt, for example.

Your pathetic wobbly flesh is sub-optimal, MORTAL! Face my icy wrath

And we have no idea what 'models' they used at Agincourt. They were most probably very high poundage bows, but again, high poundage bows are prevalent in all written history.

Otzi's bow (http://www.primitiveways.com/Otzi's_bow.html)
was very powerful too, although it was quite probably unfinished one.

[Khedrac]

Except that 'longbow' was around long before there was any armor, so that's not very good fluff. :smallwink:

This guy had an longbow, and then longbow had been around everywhere where selfbows were popular.
Err, no - check with the Real World Weapons and Armour thread in the generic Roleplaying Games forum, but historically the longbow had very limited geographical range.

Looking just at Europe the longbow was not developed until quite late, and probably in Wales. Its use spread across England (and possibly Ireland?) but that was it. On the continent they had switched from "bows" to crossbows for a variety of reasons, and they never developed the longbow.

Now there could be an argument for saying that in D&D terms the "bow" is a "longbow" and the English/Welsh longbow is a "composite longbow" but that is getting on to a different topic.

Looking further afield on one of the crusades (3rd I think) the English army was being peppered with arrows by the locals of the lands they were marching through to try to get them to break column and attack. Most of the English foot-soldiers (yes the ordinary men@arms) could not be bothered to pluck the arrows from their gear when they stuck in. No one was being hurt as the arrows could not penetrate their armour at the range they were being attacked from. Compare that to a proper English longbow which could go through full plate (it depended on the plate, there was one bunch of Italian mercenaries who really surprised the English by having arrow-proof armour on both them and their horses - they only lost the battle as they went after the baggage train after their initial charge which the English managed to beat the rest of the French army that was present and take the town).

[Spiryt]

Err, no - check with the Real World Weapons and Armour thread in the generic Roleplaying Games forum, but historically the longbow had very limited geographical range.

Looking just at Europe the longbow was not developed until quite late, and probably in Wales. Its use spread across England (and possibly Ireland?) but that was it. On the continent they had switched from "bows" to crossbows for a variety of reasons, and they never developed the longbow.
.

Uh, I frequent this thread, and I in fact made few posts about this very issue lately.

'Longbow' in no way or form limited to British Isles, and there simply is not such thing as ordinary 'bow', as opposed to longbow.

Longbow, english or otherwise, is just a type of bow, nothing more, nothing less.

Here (http://www.arcus-lucznictwo.pl/index.php?id=49) you have some pictures of Nydam and Thorsberg bows - 6 foot or more, yew, slender, D-shaped cross section, etc. Pretty much like bows from Mary Rose. Dated to ~ 3-4rd century A.D. Text is in polish, but you can easily search for Nydam and Thorsberg bows for some info.


The longbow became mass scale weapon for English combatants during ~ 1300 to 1550 period, but it doesn't mean that there was something very peculiar about their bows, or that they weren't used elsewhere.


Compare that to a proper English longbow which could go through full plate

Also beaten to death, and it depends on arrow, weight, plate etc. But generally, going trough plate would be really hard for arrow, no matter from what bow.

[Spuddles]

Well.... how?

I couldn't even stretch my arms a lot in 5 foot wide corridor, and I'm not the largest of men, to say at least...

Five foot wide space is definitely to tight for any effective hacking, polearms, and generally a lot of movement.

Bow could be hard to operate in it as well, although shooting itself shouldn't be a problem, I guess.



I'm pretty sure that in PF both longbow and shortbow have absolutely no difference in "learning cost"... They're both martial.

A longbow is like what, an inch wide at most? I'm not really seeing a problem using it in your typical 5' dungeon corridor with 10' ceilings. Draw out a 5' square on the ground and note how much space you really have. 25sqft is pretty roomy.

[Spiryt]

A longbow is like what, an inch wide at most? I'm not really seeing a problem using it in your typical 5' dungeon corridor with 10' ceilings. Draw out a 5' square on the ground and note how much space you really have. 25sqft is pretty roomy.

Yeah, but when you have 6 feet+ bow, and you actually want to move, any more rapid movement, slight tilt can end with bow colliding with walls... Rather awkward.

Shooting itself should be easy, I agree, probably with interesting effects though.
I remember when I was shooting my bow in the cellar as a kid. Hit the wall at such steep angle, that ricochet landed right in the target. :smallbiggrin:

[Ashtagon]

A longbow is like what, an inch wide at most? I'm not really seeing a problem using it in your typical 5' dungeon corridor with 10' ceilings. Draw out a 5' square on the ground and note how much space you really have. 25sqft is pretty roomy.

Pretty much this. Of all the weapons in D&D, bows are probably one of the easiest to use in a narrow space. Of the projectile weapons,. slinsg are particularly bad for confined spaces, while crossbows and bows should suffer no penalty. For melee weapons, I'd say swung weapons (slashing and bludgeoning in the main, but also pick-axes) would suffer a penalty if you are "flanked" by walls.

5 feet of frontage is actually about what you get in low-level archery tournaments where they try to maximise the number of entrants in a limited archery space.

[Spuddles]

Yeah, but when you have 6 feet+ bow, and you actually want to move, any more rapid movement, slight tilt can end with bow colliding with walls... Rather awkward.

Shooting itself should be easy, I agree, probably with interesting effects though.
I remember when I was shooting my bow in the cellar as a kid. Hit the wall at such steep angle, that ricochet landed right in the target. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah you're right. We should try to dilute our heroic fantasy with banal simulationism to ensure that mundanes don't have enough arbitrary limitations to let them threaten the caster master race. :smallannoyed:


I just don't see the value of adding yet another "can't pick your nose and scratch your ass at the same time" rule.

[Spiryt]

Yeah you're right. We should try to dilute our heroic fantasy with banal simulationism to ensure that mundanes don't have enough arbitrary limitations to let them threaten the caster master race. :smallannoyed:


I just don't see the value of adding yet another "can't pick your nose and scratch your ass at the same time" rule.

Eh, adding any rule, wasn't even my point.... :smallconfused:

I just said that 5 foot wide space isn't anywhere even close to being "roomy" because it's just not.

And if someone is using those tight space rules, he's obviously playing with a bit more 'symulationism" anyway. Such rule actually leaves daggers, other small weapons etc. with a useful niche for melee, which is always nice.

And even as far as casters go:

At low to somehow medium levels, such mole hole actually isn't very good for caster either - nowhere to hide or move, standard 'winful' spells like Fly, Clouds, Fogs can suddenly lose a lot/all of their charm.

At higher levels nothing short of complete system rework will remedy the situation anyway.