[PF] Becoming a Vampire: Pros and Cons

[Raven777]

I *might* or *might not* have the "opportunity" to become a vampire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire) in the near future. It's all part of a daring plan to crash a Vampire BBEG's new spawn creation ceremony, a plan where I am the bait. As a Human Sorcerer, I am interested on opinions on the weighting of pros and cons to being a vampire. Relevant ancillary information that might impact these opinions:

- I can probably get away with crafting myself an item of constant Protective Penumbra (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/protective-penumbra) (I know the BBEG has one so they should fall into the "can use everything the DM uses" covenant), so sunlight should not be an issue.
- Speaking of which, the DM seems prepared for the possibility of one of us getting turned, since he introduced the opportunity for our plan in the first place. So I'm probably safe on that front.
- I find that the other vampire weaknesses about crossing running water, being invited into places, mirrors and holy symbols, offer funny roleplay perspectives.
- I would be totally incapable of roleplaying being evil. My first reaction after being turned would probably be to shapechange into a wolf and run in gleeful circles thinking "Yay! I'm a dog!".
- The party has a Cleric of Pelor. The party as a whole is pretty hostile to undeads, actually. However, there has been an implicit "don't off each other" attitude since we started the campaign, and I have been able to get away with my general all-purpose Necromancy. The greatest threat to my vampireness would therefore be to manage not getting offed for good by my own team even before raising. But if I tell them my plan beforehand they will bitch and moan and try to interfere.
- The party has a Barbarian who has a habit of slapping me around because of my constant bad one liners. I really wanna see his face when his slaps are introduced to my DR 10/ and non-lethal damage immunity.

[Deathkeeper]

Well, it's not in the rulebook that a vampire MUST be evil, your GM might just make you Neutral if anything.
Also, you will almost certainly level up slower to match your CR boost
You should DEFINITELY check with your GM before assuming you can make custom items.
And lastly, if your character is VERY good you should remember that he/she may have moral problems buying and slaughtering animals for their blood (because your party does not sound like they'd advocate you drinking human blood).
Personally I'd advocate using a plan that's not going to annoy the entire party, but maybe I'm biased because I dislike vamps :smallbiggrin:

[lord_khaine]

And lastly, if your character is VERY good you should remember that he/she may have moral problems buying and slaughtering animals for their blood

How would this be any different from slaughtering animals for their meat :smallconfused:
If anything, this would be more good, because a larger part of the animal is used.

[Raven777]

Well, it's not in the rulebook that a vampire MUST be evil, your GM might just make you Neutral if anything.
Also, you will almost certainly level up slower to match your CR boost
You should DEFINITELY check with your GM before assuming you can make custom items.
And lastly, if your character is VERY good you should remember that he/she may have moral problems buying and slaughtering animals for their blood (because your party does not sound like they'd advocate you drinking human blood).
Personally I'd advocate using a plan that's not going to annoy the entire party, but maybe I'm biased because I dislike vamps :smallbiggrin:

- Pathfinder Templates have no LA.
Also, Xp is counted in "whole party levels when the DM says we level".

- I made custom items before. There are sanctioned rules for making them. On the top of my head, permanently active spell effects are [spell level x caster level x 2000 x spell duration modifier*]
*(4 for round/level, 2 for 1min/level, 1.5 for 10min/level, 0.5 for 24hours/cast)
An amulet of Protective Penumbra would go for 2*3*2000*1.5, or 18,000g

- I do not need to "slaughter animals" anymore than I would need to "slaughter people". The bite is merely 1d4 Con damage. You can heal it naturally over 4 days or Lesser Restore it away in a pinch. Plus, Vampires only need to feed once every (HD x days). Heck, in a rough spot I could feed from my familiar or summoned animals.

[Felandria]

Just be prepared to feel resented because you just became more powerful than them.

Personally, as cool as the DR and stat boosts are, the Fast Healing 5 is just the best.

[Zubrowka74]

Personally, as cool as the DR and stat boosts are, the Fast Healing 5 is just the best.

Unless your playing in this campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279678).

[Chaosvii7]

- Pathfinder Templates have no LA.
Also, Xp is counted in "whole party levels when the DM says we level".


Pathfinder templates do not have an LA, but it is a common rule of thumb(a gentleman's agreement, if you will) that the CR adjustment applies to players as well(meaning that becoming a vampire would adjust your CR by two, and thus take up two of your experience levels). Everybody's gotta shake for their supper.

[Duboris]

Unless your playing in this campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279678).

I literally just got done laughing at that thread. It's silly.


Now, you're only really having trouble with this because of you're good alignment, right? There's no problem then. Vampires are easy to play as neutral. The only part that's irritating is the rivers... Fortunately those don't come into play too often.

Holy symbols, on the other hand...

[Deathkeeper]

How would this be any different from slaughtering animals for their meat :smallconfused:
If anything, this would be more good, because a larger part of the animal is used.

Plenty of people just buy food and make other people prepare it for them, they don't kill it slowly themselves from blood loss. Trust me, I've had some characters in my campaigns with very silly points of view. And someone who gets turned just so they can shift and say that they're a dog is not far off.
And I wasn't sure if the bite would be fatal or not. I've seen it where doing it on small animals is a bad idea. And for all you know you might come back and find out by not finishing them you've made a whole legion of vampire cows out for revenge :smallamused:

[Zubrowka74]

I literally just got done laughing at that thread. It's silly.


Now, you're only really having trouble with this because of you're good alignment, right? There's no problem then. Vampires are easy to play as neutral. The only part that's irritating is the rivers... Fortunately those don't come into play too often.

Holy symbols, on the other hand...

It's more the point that fast healing will eventually kill you unless you keep stabbing yourself.

[Keneth]

Pathfinder templates do not have an LA, but it is a common rule of thumb(a gentleman's agreement, if you will) that the CR adjustment applies to players as well(meaning that becoming a vampire would adjust your CR by two, and thus take up two of your experience levels). Everybody's gotta shake for their supper.

That is not a rule of thumb at all. There used to be a suggestion for players playing powerful races that the CR should be treated somewhat like LA with an inbuilt buyoff, but this notion has since been abandoned and your power level now merely adjusts the average party level. You don't lag behind, but the encounters are probably gonna be bumped by one category to compensate for the power shift. That's RAW, anything else is just house rules. And LA is a retarded mechanic, so good riddance.

Vampires are not evil by default in Pathfinder (not moroi anyway). So there shouldn't be a problem on that front, although your actions might eventually shift you toward that end if you fully embrace your new status quo.

The other weaknesses are somewhat annoying, especially running water, but that can be dealt with by having a swim speed (I don't think it matters where it comes from). The really annoying one is the coffin. You need to get yourself one or more coffins that have special meaning for you and carry them around (although a silent teleport will generally allow you to just hide them somewhere and go there when you get misted).

The blood part is even easier to deal with since they introduced the transmute wine to blood spell in Blood of the Night. All you need a is a bottle of wine worth at least 10 gp once per feeding interval. If you're allowed to make custom items, I recently developed an item called Chalice of Life that transmutes any similarly expensive wine into blood automatically for the cost of 12,000 gp (both the name and design are ironic; It's made of melted silver holy symbols, adorned with sun gems, and it's meant to sustain unlife, rather than life).

Overall, vampirism is a huge boost for a sorcerer. Other party members might get jealous, even with all the weaknesses, so the GM will probably want to offer the other players similar opportunities to acquire templates.

[Karoht]

Command Undead becomes a bit problematic. It's a Level 2 Spell, anyone in your party who can cast it can potentially control you. And the spell has a duration of days/level.
When you rest, you are helpless. And yes, you do have to rest as a Vampire.

So to clarify, while you rest your party could decide to be smart, and cast Command Undead on you until they either run out of spell slots or succeed on the check. And they have Days/Level to refresh the spell before it runs out.

Command Undead and Dominate Person have very similar rules, I highly recommend studying both in good detail. Why? Because if you are going to infiltrate a coven of Vampires, using Command Undead on them is probably going to save your bacon at least once, maybe more. It's an excellent interrogation tactic if needed.

As for keeping your party from using Command Undead on you, I recommend using Dominate Person on your party members. Not in a malicious way, and certainly not while they are awake. It will just prevent them from taking hostile action against you.
That or, you allow your party to use Command undead on you, this way you can't take any hostile action against your party members. But you do this under the agreement that your party not take hostile action against you, and the minute you are done with this infiltration job, they use a Wish/Miracle to change you back. That might set them at ease.

Again, read both spells in very careful detail.

[Keneth]

Command Undead becomes a bit problematic.

It makes the undead friendly, which the character will already be, and they have to succeed on an opposed charisma check with a vampire sorcerer to get the character to do anything they wouldn't otherwise want to, with no chance of retries. I'd say good luck with that. :smallbiggrin:


And yes, you do have to rest as a Vampire.

Only to recover spells.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Command Undead becomes a bit problematic. It's a Level 2 Spell, anyone in your party who can cast it can potentially control you. And the spell has a duration of days/level.

Story time!
As a DM, I once put my party (including a dread necro) up against a vampire spawn as a sort of boss encounter. They only just barely had access to level two spells, being a bit low level and the thing was rather mopping the floor with them.
Two dead dwarfs were chained to the back wall and the dread necro ran up to them, seemingly just running away from the vicious vampire spawn. He had the spell, but not the material components (bit of flesh and a sliver of bone).
As his turn rolled around, he stated that he was casting Command Undead. I tell him that he does not have the material components and he replies "Yes, I do" and holds up the dead dwarf's arm.
Nowhere does it state what size the sliver of bone must be, whether there was an upper limit to the amount of flesh and whether the two could still be attached to each other, or to the original corpse, so I had no choice but to allow it.
It wasn't that bad, while commanding the spawn was possible, it had a rather high will save. I managed to beat the first attempt, but the vampire spawn barely had time to go 'lolwut?' before he tried again (using the dwarf's other arm) and I rolled a natural 1.
So now they had a tame vampire spawn. To compound my embarrassment, they used him to clear out the rest of my dungeon before the necro took out a glass bottle and said "now get in". I allowed the vamp an opposed charisma check at this point but completely tanked it, so it turned to vapor and obediently entered the bottle.
And that is how my party obtained their 'Vampire-in-a-Bottle'.

[Karoht]

It makes the undead friendly, which the character will already be, and they have to succeed on an opposed charisma check with a vampire sorcerer to get the character to do anything they wouldn't otherwise want to, with no chance of retries. I'd say good luck with that. :smallbiggrin:I missed that part. In that case, he'd better have it on his list then, it will prove to be quite potent and useful



Only to recover spells.I've had mixed opinions/readings on this one. I was under the impression, possibly falsely, that their need to rest and drink blood was psychological and physical. Meaning that a Ring of Sustainance wouldn't necessarily remove the need for blood.
Can we find a ruling on that? DM ruling may differ as well though.

EDIT: Re-read the template, hunger is an optional rule. Can't find anything about resting though.

[lord_khaine]

Plenty of people just buy food and make other people prepare it for them, they don't kill it slowly themselves from blood loss.

Arrg, that doesnt make sense!

Why does it matter if its someone else who does the killing?

And for that matter, slowly dying from blood loss should be a pretty peacefull way to go, not worse than normal animals are subjected to each day.


And LA is a retarded mechanic, so good riddance.

No.. it is so far ne of the bedst way of quickly making people be able to play a monster race.

3.5 may have set it a little high, but the mechanic of it is still better than what pathfinder have.

[Keneth]

Vampires have to feed, the rules for feeding are optional, but they do have a need do it. They can't die from starvation though, so if not using the feeding rules (which I believe are currently the only official rules on the subject), it's up to the GM to decide what happens after not drinking blood for a long time.

Resting on the other hand is unnecessary. Vampires rest in their coffins to get away from daylight or to heal, but as undead they are immune to fatigue and exhaustion, so they can stay awake for as long as they want if resting doesn't afford them any benefit. That doesn't mean they don't feel like getting a rest, but mechanically there's no drawbacks to not resting.


No.. it is so far ne of the bedst way of quickly making people be able to play a monster race.

It's an arbitrary punishment of the characters with no good reasoning behind it. If you're gonna let your players play monster races, you should adjust your encounters, not punish them for it.

[Raven777]

Unless I am missing something, a level 2 Command Undead cannot do anything to me that a level 1 Charm Person can't do to me right now. :smallconfused:

Its the 7th level Control Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-undead) that is extra worrisome, because there is no restriction on the commands. No save against acts counter to your nature, no saves against self harm, nothing, nada, zilch. Anybody could order a Controled undead to take a lava bath down volcano crater avenue and he'd have no choice but to obey, contrary to the humanoid/monster versions of Dominate.

[Chained Birds]

If you can afford that 18000gp custom accessory and have access to a nice, safe, convenient coffin, then all power to you (literally). Just watch out for Clerics or Paladins (Especially of Pharasma) with detect Undead. Even if you don't *Ping* as EVIL, being an Undead is still a good enough reason for many Good-aligned Divine classes to shove a Holy Water down your throat while stacking you with a rusty holy symbol.

[Arbane]

Arrg, that doesnt make sense!

Why does it matter if its someone else who does the killing?


Because D&D.

D&D in general has a really fractured view of the morality of killing things. it treats murdering another intelligent being as morally neutral... if they were hostile, or thinking of becoming hostile, but if you try to gain any benefit from their death beyond the fact they're no longer trying to murder you BACK, all of a sudden it's EEEEVIL. :smallconfused:

[Keneth]

Unless I am missing something, a level 2 Command Undead cannot do anything to me that a level 1 Charm Person can't do to me right now. :smallconfused:

Exactly, it's not a threat.


Its the 7th level Control Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-undead) that is extra worrisome, because there is no restriction on the commands. No save against acts counter to your nature, no saves against self harm, nothing, nada, zilch. Anybody could order a Controled undead to take a lava bath down volcano crater avenue and he'd have no choice but to obey, contrary to the humanoid/monster versions of Dominate.

Control undead is pretty horrible, yeah. Get a wand of bestow grace and enjoy a massive boost to your saves. You can't exactly walk into a temple of Iomedae and ask for one, but it shouldn't be too hard to procure. Or make a permanent item for a measly 32k gp. At that level it shouldn't be out of your price range. If you're still worried after that, you can get something that allows you to reroll a Will save on the odd chance that you fail miserably (like Improved Iron Will).

[HurinTheCursed]

I don't see how your DM could keep the group balanced without applying the level adjustments, which would be bad for a caster.

Furthermore, I would expect your alignment to shift toward the natural vampire alignment. You will have to be really careful with your decisions IMO. But after all, it's to your's DM discretion.

[Raven777]

Where are the rules for LA? I cannot seem to find them.

[Deathkeeper]

It's under the "Monsters as PCs" part of the Bestiary which details how to transfer CR to class levels. I always found it kind of screwy.
Oh and for the record I never meant that a character killing animals would be evil, but if they're played as being particularly innocent when not fighting for self-defense they might have a problem with it. Since I know nothing about the PC in question, I thought I'd include it.
And before you ask, yes, I had a Monk in my party once who essentially acted like a ten year old when not in combat. It was rather awkward.

[Raven777]

I'm not so much innocent as I'm cheerful. I'm a sorcerer, why wouldn't I be chipper? Reality loves me so much that when I ask someone's bones to snap, they listen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/boneshatter). On that note, I don't think the Bestow Graces thing is going to work to pad my Will Saves. Sadly, I'm Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Good.

Maybe a one charge wand of Greater Spell Immunity channeled through my Arcane Apotheosis (once I get to that point, anyway)?

[Keneth]

I don't see how your DM could keep the group balanced without applying the level adjustments, which would be bad for a caster.

It's not the DM's job to keep the party balanced, it's his job to keep encounters balanced. LA mechanics aren't bad for casters, they're just plain bad, which is why the developers took a different approach in Advanced Race Guide and introduced a new recommendation for adjusting the encounter level, rather than punishing your players for letting them play with templates or strong races in the first place.


On that note, I don't think the Bestow Graces thing is going to work to pad my Will Saves. Sadly, I'm Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Good.

Yeah, I figured as much. A custom item kinda makes that irrelevant since you don't need to target yourself, although the DM might rule that the item is alignment-restricted, which would require a DC 30 UMD check. The alternative is researching a sorcerer spell with a similar function which would probably fall under 3rd level spells (not as good, but close to it). Assuming your DM lets you research new spells.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well NONE really if you don't like roleplaying and prefer to meta-game to the max.

If you roleplay you will find yourself growing both out of touch, and growing slightly insane.

The process is a maddening. You don't sleep, food tastes blander (Maybe even DISGUSTING), emotions are more dulled, life becomes so....dull. End everybody just SMELL SO GOOD.

If your DM goes the butch route, and says the only sentient blood is satisfying then thats another thing.

Even WORSE if the blood must be from something LIVE. Their screams will haunt you, and even worse: Eventually they won't.

Thats how I prefer vampires. And not just a free goody bag.

Them going evil isn't something that happens like POOF, and thats it. It something that happens over time.

[Keneth]

None of that is RAW though. Except maybe for nosferatu. Sucks to be them. :smallbiggrin:

[Scowling Dragon]

None of that is RAW though.

Well whatever! I hate Vampires being this "No tis cool, drink animal blood" doofuses.

Like I would write Ravens Character LITERALLY feeling less happy unless she indulged in more and more outlandish acts and drank fresh blood.

She just wouldn't be capable of feeling chipper, or happy.

Things that would make her laugh before would just do nothing. Thus allows for organic transformation into vileness as more and more cruel or insane acts are necessary to recapture the characters lost feelings.

Like never being able to see the sun. The sun is one of the most uplifting things that sentient beings liked.

[Keneth]

Well I, for one, am glad that moroi don't suffer from such tedious problems. A transmute wine to blood spell every couple of weeks and you're right as rain.

As for the other vampire species... they can deal with it however they like. :smallcool:

[Scowling Dragon]

Well I, for one, am glad that moroi don't suffer from such tedious problems.

And I hope your not offended but:

I hate that type of thought (Though I undersand it. If this is considered a infarction I will remove this.). I PERSONALLY think its everything WRONG with 3e.

Where the IMPORTANT STUFF, the actual Roleplaying is handwaved away in exchange for MOAH MECHANIKS AND POWAS. :furious:

[Keneth]

If by "roleplaying" you mean your own idea of how a vampire should be played, then yes, I'm ok with that. Vampire characters are gonna have enough problems that they shouldn't have to worry about their alignment shifting, or their senses dulling, or their mind going insane. There should be ways around that, and I like the roleplaying aspect of overcoming one's weaknesses. It took (real life) years for my own vampire sorceress to get to the point where the only thing she needs to worry about is her coffin (I'm still looking for a way to get rid of that), and it was quite the journey to get there.

And I don't get offended easily. I'm used to people disagreeing with me. Mostly because I like arguing. :smallbiggrin:

[Scowling Dragon]

I don't think there ARE any major disadvantages.

If Vampires are these just power boosters with no detraction (Or ones so small they are quite easily offset by the benefits), NOBODY would treat them poorly. In fact, almost every person would be chummy with the pire, in hopes of getting bitten and made free-willed.

Im personally a fan of it NOT having any form around these disadvantages because:

A: PCs are notorious for finding fast ways around any drawbacks.

B: Because its a CURSE, it can't BECOME just a condition. Its a horrid nightmarish thing that NOBODY wants to happen to them. Vampires are all about the curse.

So yes. I hate. I mean HATE the idea of vampire curses finding a wrap around.

[Chained Birds]

Malack has troubles.

Though I guess any "curse" can be changed to a benefit with enough thought.

Look at lycanthropy and how many want to be a were-something and play off their animal aspect as more of a comical anomaly.

I don't disagree that a player picking up a free major boost without much effort and countering all the downsides can be a problem, but that might me my fault as a DM for not thinking much about the consequences of giving the boost to them.

[Keneth]

I don't think there ARE any major disadvantages.

If your DM chooses to play to your weaknesses, then he'll screw you over something proper. It was a pain in the ass dealing with all their disabilities and I was glad to see each and every one of them gone.


In fact, almost every person would be chummy with the pire, in hopes of getting bitten and made free-willed.

Except that vampires aren't really the power boost they were in 3.5. Being a low-level vampire sucks because you simply can't afford to work around any of your weaknesses (although it's become progressively easier for spellcasters), and any hunter worth their salt is gonna make short work of you, believe me. My character was killed by the church at late mid levels and had to literally crawl back from Hell to continue her miserable unlife. Aside from Geb and Ustalav, there really is no good place to be a vampire on Golarion, unless you want to spend your life in a cave.

And besides, people ARE lining up for the bite. Real vampires have their food come to them, only plebs hunt the streets. :smallamused:


A: PCs are notorious for finding fast ways around any drawbacks.

If they can find a workaround, then you should let them have it. It's good for character development. If you don't like workarounds, then don't give them the template in the first place. Otherwise you're no better than the guy who wants to slap LA on the PC, you're just punishing the player for no reason. Or do you also punish the barbarian who learns how to rage cycle? Or a rogue who can sneak attack in any conditions? Or a sorcerer who UMDs an item you didn't intend for them? Or a lich that finds a clever way to hide their phylactery?


B: Because its a CURSE, it can't BECOME just a condition. Its a horrid nightmarish thing that NOBODY wants to happen to them. Vampires are all about the curse.

I disagree, it's not a curse, and it can't be cured with remove curse. Vampires in Pathfinder are just a species of undead. While some breeds may live a more pitiful existence than others, and many fall into temptation, it is by no means something that nobody wants to happen to them.

Pathfinder isn't a Bram Stoker novel.

[lord_khaine]

It's an arbitrary punishment of the characters with no good reasoning behind it. If you're gonna let your players play monster races, you should adjust your encounters, not punish them for it.

It sounds like you newer actualy understood the idea behind LA in the first place, if you have such weird ideas about it.

LA is the only way to balance things out if one of your players want to be a ½elf, and the other a troll.

Thats not something you can just "adjust encounters" to fix..

[Raven777]

The character has been running off a Ring of Sustenance since she was created (started at 5th level, was part of her starting gear). She already doesn't need to eat nor drink and barely ever sleeps.

As I mentioned, I like the narrative implications of vampirism. But I believe one can be melancholy and philosophical without descending into a spiral of wanton angst and destruction. After all, strong Charisma is about being able to keep one's act together. And being the most dazzingly stupendous Sorcerer to ever thread the realms. Forever.

As for CR-as-levels adjustments, I do not really worry about them. They are unlikely to come up, but if they do, I can relate to why they would be used, and more importantly, being a vampire stays cool regardless of an Xp based balancing factor. You get to suspend yourself from the ceiling with Spider Climb and pretend to sleep like a bat! And my character would plan on existing eternally. Her paradigm shifts from I might not have enough of one lifetime to have all the fun with my power to I have eternity and then some to grow ever more amazing. She will catch up. Suck it, Wizard, you and your Immortality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries/immortality) shenanigans, I just found my own.

Remember, my character runs off Charisma, not Wisdom. As far as she is concerned, eventually, she will always find a way to have her way. And that is what will will keep her sane.

[Keneth]

It sounds like you newer actualy understood the idea behind LA in the first place, if you have such weird ideas about it.

The idea behind LA is to balance the party so that you can give them balanced encounters, but that's just a tool to make a DM's life easier and is nothing but an annoyance to the players. It's a horrible system and has no business being part of the game, just like XP penalties for multiclassing. Why should the players have to pay penance for your decision to let them play a powerful creature? Either make encounters that are challenging to all party members or, if you don't have the DM skills to do that, give the rest of the players a similar boost, and adjust the encounters accordingly.

[Scowling Dragon]

The character has been running off a Ring of Sustenance since she was created (started at 5th level, was part of her starting gear). She already doesn't need to eat nor drink and barely ever sleeps.

As I mentioned, I like the narrative implications of vampirism. But I believe one can be melancholy and philosophical without descending into a spiral of wanton angst and destruction. After all, strong Charisma is about being able to keep one's act together. And being the most dazzingly stupendous Sorcerer to ever thread the realms. Forever.

As for CR-as-levels adjustments, I do not really worry about them. They are unlikely to come up, but if they do, I can relate to why they would be used, and more importantly, being a vampire stays cool regardless of an Xp based balancing factor. You get to suspend yourself from the ceiling with Spider Climb and pretend to sleep like a bat! And my character would plan on existing eternally. Her paradigm shifts from I might not have enough of one lifetime to have all the fun with my power to I have eternity and then some to grow ever more amazing. She will catch up. Suck it, Wizard, you and your Immortality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries/immortality) shenanigans, I just found my own.

Remember, my character runs off Charisma, not Wisdom. As far as she is concerned, eventually, she will always find a way to have her way. And that is what will will keep her sane.

Well this character bores me. :smallsigh:

But whatever, its my opinion. "Vampires are this fun toolbox to play with, with no drawbacks for me whatsoever". Whatever: Go wild.

Your guy, you play whatever.

[Corundum Dragon]

When you kill an animal for it's meat you have to drain the blood or the meat won't be good. If you hunt in the wild just have some bottles or pots to save it instead of draining it on the ground. Have Unguent of Timelessness and just add a dose. In town you can just go to a butcher and ask for some blood so you can make blood pudding.
If you need sentient blood take leadership, and a eternal wand of lesser restoration. Or just use a vampires Dominate ability.

[Raven777]

I respectfully agree to disagree, then :smalltongue:

[Deathkeeper]

Are your party members optimized or otherwise care about stats? Because I once had a party member get a few vampire upgrades without being a full vampire and managed to get around the few weaknesses she did get, and frankly the entire party was rather irritated that she essentially got a free, upgrade to most of her stats plus powers that never hurt her in any way. Just saying that you should know your party.

[Raven777]

The Brotherhood of the Pants (long story, don't ask) is a party (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand) of six 10th level adventurers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RagtagBunchOfMisfits).

- NN Human Wizard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSmartGuy) [Evoker] (Utility/Blast), doing good
- CN Human Sorcerer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TokenEvilTeammate) (Buffs/Debuffs/Blast), doing good <-- me
- LG Aasimar Cleric (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLancer) (Healbot/Channel/Melee), could do better
- NN Aasimar Druid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CloudCuckooLander) (Wildshape Melee), doing good
- NG Catfolk Rogue/Ninja (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSneakyGuy) (Stealth, Melee), could do better
- NG Half-Ogre Barbarian (melee) (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLeader), doing good, has Leadership
* Some kind of Monk/Barbarian who is the Barbarian's cohort

Note that the Half-Ogre has no LA
Note that the Half-Ogre holds a MacGuffin that allows him to slowly learn Divine and Arcane magic. He's at cantrips. Not sure how it'll progress from there.
Note that our usual combat encounters are already usually on a CR 2-3 points above our ECL to account for our group composition and numbers.
Note that we are cruelly under WBL with little to no time to craft and are therefore below theoretical Big Six progression.
Note that the above means we are starting to feel the bite of enemy Saves and ACs being slightly higher than our average rolls.

This leads me to believe that though being a Vampire would make a relevant difference in non combat scenarios (skill bonuses, Domination, Spider Climb), it wouldn't make that big of a difference during actual combat. I would do the exact same things that I already do: Haste the party, Slow the enemy, then spam Enervation on the melee's targets to soften them up. My own survavibility would go up, but why would the party feel threatened about that?