Plot impossibility

[Cybris75]

I've been playing (and DMing) D&D for some time, and I'm seeing some patterns regarding character abilities and plot DM choices.
Every time the PC's level up, some plot options die - they are no longer viable.

My examples:
- road movie/travel experience - as soon as the PCs get some kind of supernatural movement (e.g. phantom steeds), this plot possibility is gone. Teleportation destroys it completely.
- murder mystery - when the PCs get divinations like "Commune" or "Contact other plane", mysteries die as a plot point. Sure, high-level magic NPC users can take precautions and try to cover their tracks, but this doesn't really work well against some divinations.

What experiences did you have when PC's capabilities destroyed plot possibilities?
The purpose of this thread is to construct a table of character levels that offer abilities which render certain plots totally moot.

[dascarletm]

Level 5

Fly Spell. Climbing Ye Old Mountain is no longer a problem. (Maybe before if the players work for it a little more)


But don't forget that some plot options will open up once they get higher level as well. Instead of low-levels having "Traveling down the road" plots, the higher-levels have "try to survive a planar journey," for example.

[Gerrtt]

Level 1.

Not having water is no longer a plot point if you have a cleric/druid/archivist in the party thanks to create water.

[laeZ1]

More abilities should just increase options.

A good exersice for a DM of how to challenge your party with obstacles other than MOAR STRONGUR MONSTURS is to pretend you made NPCs with the same abilities as the party, and do some role reversal. If you want to plan for the party to go after some object you need the NPCs to protect, think about what measures the PCs would do to protect it. Including Divinations like communing to their god for help/advice, or circle of protections.

Now, challenging your PCs is good and all, but remind them that they are certified BAs. Go ahead and throw that murder mystery side-plot in there, and have it be insta-solved by the first high-level thing they try. So long as you don't overuse this technique, it feels good to be awesome.

[Barsoom]

On the plus side, for each plot possibility that dies, two new ones are born!

- Infiltrate the Drow city! (kind of difficult to do if the PCs have no access to high level illusions)
- Find the lair of the invisible Pixie assassin who lives in the forest! (See invisibility, Speak with Plants)

And so on.

[Amnestic]

It's only natural that plot threads die as you level up. Level 14 Adventurers who've vanquished the Black Lich of Kerhazentar and saved the world from the Third Dragon Collective won't be going back to cleaning up street rats or investigating petty crimes like they might have done back at level 1. It's no longer at their power level anymore.

But with every plot option which dies, a new one makes itself available. Bigger foes, more serious consequences, grander scales...When once a party was limited in scope to affecting their immediate surroundings - a room, a dungeon, a small local area...now they affect countries, continents, entire planes of existence.

Though obviously that depends on the relative power level of your setting/universe, but I'm sure you take my point. Lose a thread, gain a thread.

[nedz]

It's an interesting perspective that levelling up, etc., is not so much about character development — which need not be anything to do with mechanics anyway — as changing the game. The game itself levels up.

[RFLS]

More abilities should just increase options.

The OP addressed this in his OP. Options do get taken off the table via leveling.

[Gereo]

Well I can tell you that if you have just one suicidally reckless player you can forget about the "identification" tasks..."what's this? a non-descript jar full of green stuff i found in a tomb? a barbed ring? a tome bound in human flesh?...better drink/wear/read it."

Also, create food/water and cure spells can disrupt whole questlines if your poor DM didn't think ahead..."DM: The villagers suffer under the harsh taxes, and starve in their homes. For- PLAYER: I create enough food to sustain them. DM: ...Well, yeah but there's still the matter of the disease- PLAYER: Oh yeah, i'll go ahead and remove that too. DM: I'm going home."

[Duke of Urrel]

I don't believe either of these plot options ever dies completely, but both of them do get more and more difficult for the DM as players advance in level.

1. road movie/travel: Teleportation makes it easy to get home from anywhere, provided that you don't get trapped in an anti-magic prison. But it doesn't help you get to where you want to go if you're not sure where you're going, so some exploration is still necessary. And if the Material Plane is too easy, try luring the players onto another plane of existence. All kinds of crazy things can happen out there, and there are even "dead magic zones" where teleportation is impossible.

2. murder mystery: There are escape clauses built into nearly every divination for DMs to exploit. Although it's unfair to give PCs no information at all when they contact the gods, it's perfectly fair to give them only a partial answer – such as a clue. And not all crimes are easy to solve even with superb divinations. Try solving a crime that's a hundred years old, or try finding a murderer who has escaped to another plane of existence. In a magical world, serious criminals don't dare to perpetrate great crimes without a lot of magical help that makes them hard to identify, hard to find, hard to reach, and hard to catch.

Rather than give up on any kind of plot, I would ask the Playground about ways to get around the challenges of magical travel and insight. There are a lot of rulebooks out there that give PCs a lot of power to get around the barriers that DMs create, but DMs still have their own secret and inalienable power – the power to make stuff up.

I don't mean that as a DM, you should arbitrarily make stuff up on the spot. I mean that you should plan ahead and make up some special exceptions to the rules, locate these exceptions in special places in your world (maybe on other planes of existence), and then lure the PCs toward those places. There should be a reason for every one of your weird exceptions to the rules, and there should be a way for the PCs to get around every problem that you throw at them, using both magical and mundane means.

On page 13 of the Rules Compendium, David Noonan refers to the game of D&D as an "exception based rule set." This means that as PCs advance in level, they acquire numerous "get-out-of-jail-free cards" that are basically exceptions to the general rules that plague lower-level PCs. It's great that PCs can do that. But it's also great that DMs can invent exceptions to those exceptions. "Uh, no, actually, you can't teleport right now. Something has gone terribly wrong," you may say. And that something (an anti-magic storm rumbling overhead? an interplanar portal that absorbs all magic within a mile of itself? a local river goddess who won't let the adventurers leave her valley until they agree to help her?) is for you to know and the players to find out.

[Skysaber]

Level 1.

Not having water is no longer a plot point if you have a cleric/druid/archivist in the party thanks to create water.

For every measure there is a counter. When I had PCs I wanted to run through an Egyptian themed adventure (to the point where they were the only people-headed people. Everyone else was jackal-headed people, or lion-headed people, etc) I had a property of the sands there simply negate all attempts to create water magically. It was carry it or go thirsty.

My brother, who DMs frequently, got hounded by players wanting to abuse flight and started calling for Fly skill checks long before Pathfinder ever came up with one.

Forgotten Realms decided the entire underdark was iffy with teleportation, and there is no reason why you can't decide this or that magical valley has a similar property (or even just a weirdstone so well hidden no one has ever been able to find it).

Ultimately, the DM is still in charge.

[NichG]

The DM being able to counter things doesn't mean that it makes for good gaming to do so.

Its one thing when the challenge is 'you're in a desert and you need to survive' because you have no way of actually directly avoiding the challenge (e.g. its a challenge that naturally emerges from the scenario). Its another thing when you've basically hit a point where you have what should be an easy and sensible solution for that challenge, but the challenge arbitrarily has a counter for your sensible solution.

The problem with the narrowing of challenges and plots isn't that there's no way to run them, its that if you do try to run them you're forced to make them more and more contrived to keep them relevant.

[Hyde]

the key to keeping things fresh and/or relevant is moderation. This time you foil their divisions because the assassin(s) are using some nondetection, but the next one doesn't.

Yes, for some reason, this storm is interfering with magic, but after it passes, it's pretty much smooth sailing.

Basically, as long as you don't shut them down in the same ways, you can avoid a lot of the problems. Not all, but it's better than nothing.

[NotScaryBats]

I remember Tales of Wyre where the high level druid (I think like 16 at the time) Wild Shaped into a giant eagle, flew up above an entire army, and used long ranged AOE spells to rout the entire army.

So, armies are no longer a serious plot point when you reach high levels in some cases.

[TuggyNE]

I remember Tales of Wyre where the high level druid (I think like 16 at the time) Wild Shaped into a giant eagle, flew up above an entire army, and used long ranged AOE spells to rout the entire army.

So, armies are no longer a serious plot point when you reach high levels in some cases.

That's truest for druids, but any decent full caster will be able to pull that off, and even some lower-tier characters can manage it to some extent.

And yeah, man, that was a good story. ^_^

[NichG]

I won't do it by level, but by effect:

Temporary Flight: Physical obstacle puzzles e.g. crossing a river, bridging a gap.

Permanent Flight: Any sort of travel obstruction (mountain climbing, etc); dangerous wilderness stuff (can fly above the animals/plants/etc); balacing/precarious situations (no fighting on falling debris for example); crashing airships (just hover and watch it go down...)

Teleportation: Non-planar travel plotlines. Natural barriers/frontiers plotlines (need a vessel for space travel? why bother when you have Greater Teleport). Anything involving being stranded or isolated.

Plane Shift: Planar travel plotlines (no need to find a portal key, use weird methods of planar travel, get stranded on a plane, etc)

Discern Location/Circle Dance/etc: Find-the-person/track down the fugitive stuff. Generally any sort of treasure hunt.

Remove Disease: Search for a cure, stop a plague, etc.

Regeneration/Polymorph/PaO: Pretty much any plotline about physically permanent effects - king has lost the ability to walk, etc. Also PaO nullifies any environmental survival scenario.

Planar Tolerance spell line: Exotic environmental survival plotlines (as early as Lv5, before you even get Planeshift).

Heal: Mental illness plotlines (the guy has amnesia and you must go inside his head to cure it? Naw, Heal!).

Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrection: Orpheus-style journey to the underworld for a soul plotlines (conditional - still works if soul is in escrow).

Lv > 3: Hostage situations (no one-hit kills anymore).

Reserve Feats or other non-blockable magics: Prisoner scenarios (you can't really keep a mage in jail without keeping them knocked out).

[Evolved Shrimp]

I won't do it by level, but by effect:.

There are ways to keep most if not all of these plot devices relevant. Off the top off my head:

Teleportation: You need to take something with you that exceeds your transport capacity.
Flight: Same as teleportation and/or superior enemy airforce somewhere along the route the PCs must take.
Remove Disease: The disease is infectious before symptoms appear. Carriers will spread all over the world before they can be healed.
Discern Location etc.: Countermeasures by the opposition - Nondetection isn't just for PCs.
Plane Shift: The PCs need to go to a plane ruled by a divine being that has blocked access except through the official front door.

So if you really feel that you need any of these devices, there should be a way to do so despite improved player capabilities. The point, however, is to make it all seem logical, so that the players don't feel that their PCs are getting nerfed so as not to derail the DM's intended story.

[Yora]

It's an interesting perspective that levelling up, etc., is not so much about character development — which need not be anything to do with mechanics anyway — as changing the game. The game itself levels up.
And this is the reason why E6 exist.

And why 4th Edition came up with Heroic, Paragon, and Epic tiers. No clue, how that worked out, though.

[Amphetryon]

For many of these abilities that appear as Characters increase in level, a suitable counter is available to appropriate-level adversaries. The issue there becomes how much negation of PC abilities is too much to allow them to continue having fun and feeling like they gained anything from the level besides some HPs.

[Duke of Urrel]

So if you really feel that you need any of these devices, there should be a way to do so despite improved player capabilities. The point, however, is to make it all seem logical, so that the players don't feel that their PCs are getting nerfed so as not to derail the DM's intended story.

Very well said, Evolved Shrimp!

[GoddessSune]

What experiences did you have when PC's capabilities destroyed plot possibilities?


This does not have to happen. All that needs to be done is to advance the world as the player characters advance. Or simply put, keep the balance.

Sure if your world is a mundane paradise where people think ''fire'' or ''the wheel'' is a great new invention, then teleportioaon will ruin any plot. But if the world is more advanced, then telportation losses it's awesomeness. Even the easy trick of ''they don't know where to go'' makes teleport not as useful.

It's not so hard to get around divinations, again, by advancing the world. You can charm and magic jar victims to do crimes, and then let them go to foil direct questions, for example. Any ''CSI'' show is full of examples. And even if you divination out a plot, it might not do you any good without proof.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Fireball spell...

At least if you have someone who will light a town on fire *cough*my group*cough* because he was curious.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

This is why I prefer lateral advancement (changing the character from one thing to another as seen in Fate) to linear advancement (changing the character by adding things).

[ksbsnowowl]

But don't forget that some plot options will open up once they get higher level as well. Instead of low-levels having "Traveling down the road" plots, the higher-levels have "try to survive a planar journey," for example.

Try to survive a planar journey... My 14th level PC's are failing at that at the moment. Next session is going to be do or die. Literally. The environment (weather equivalent to a 2nd level spell effect) might do them in.

[Chained Birds]

Not to mention Drama points get deadened after a certain level.

"Oh no, Fighter Mc'Gee died! He was so young!"
"Yep... So, want to Rez him now or later?"
"Meh, I've got some time to kill."
*Much Laughter Was Had by All*

Seriously, without soul destruction or negative energy killing (I think this is permanent), thing get a bit DBZ-ish.

[TuggyNE]

Seriously, without soul destruction or negative energy killing (I think this is permanent), thing get a bit DBZ-ish.

Killing with negative energy doesn't do anything in particular. Fatal negative levels will raise you as a wight some time later, while [death] effects prevent raise dead and some others from working, which is probably what you mean.

Strictly speaking it's actually extremely hard to really thoroughly kill someone for good in D&D.

[Slipperychicken]

This is one reason some groups play E6 (level-cap at 6): So that the PCs stay on a more "human" level and not quite bending-physics/plot-over-and-making-them-my-b*** level of power.

[Kaerou]

Many plot options ie yes.. but still some others become possible, such as adventures to other planes or highly dangerous areas low levels cannot compete in.

Still, my biggest hate as a DM is teleportation. I can deal with flight or burrowing somewhat, but teleportation.. it just takes all control away from the DM. No other ability compares.

[BWR]

I played in one game where the DM flat out banned Wind Walk and Find the Path, and ruled that you had to have physically visited any place you were going to Teleport to (meaning we still had to slog through the swamp).

Much though I like to house rule, I am oddly reluctant to change or remove spells. The biggest change I have done is to put some limits on spells like Divination, Commune and other powerful ask a question divinations.
In short, we generally restrict it to one casting of each per adventure, possibly more but no more than one per topic.

After one game where we PCs spent dozens of Commune spells trying to locate secret enemy bases (covered by antimagic so we couldn't scry, but the gods knew where they were). We sat with a map of the continent and asked along the lines of 'is it north of this line? is it east of that line?' until we had narrowed it down to just a few square kilometers. And we did this about 4 times.
The DM allowed it because we literally had no way of finding the things otherwise without covering the entire continent by hand. This was banned after the adventure.

[Chained Birds]

After one game where we PCs spent dozens of Commune spells trying to locate secret enemy bases (covered by antimagic so we couldn't scry, but the gods knew where they were). We sat with a map of the continent and asked along the lines of 'is it north of this line? is it east of that line?' until we had narrowed it down to just a few square kilometers. And we did this about 4 times.
The DM allowed it because we literally had no way of finding the things otherwise without covering the entire continent by hand. This was banned after the adventure.

I'm now visualizing a God whipping out a Map and playing a one-sided game of Battleship.

[Mnemnosyne]

Strictly speaking it's actually extremely hard to really thoroughly kill someone for good in D&D.
Not sure I'd say it's that hard, really. Trap the Soul or a thinaun dagger, then use the soul to create a magic item (such as a scroll, for instance). Bam, soul irrevocably destroyed. So, it takes a moderately high level spell or a 10,000 gp weapon, plus the gp cost of creating a couple scrolls, but it's a relatively easy task to irrevocably kill someone.

[Trebloc]

I guess I don't have an issue with the PCs gaining more options. All options require some kind of resource to use -- you cannot cast Fly all day long to overcome every challenge on every PC that needs it, and if all you do is take Fly spells, there are other spells you're missing out on.

Also, I guess my PCs are somewhat paranoid, because I set things up such that there multiple different possible counters setup for what they try to do. Try to fly over the water -- Dispel Magic, Anti Magic Field, traps to wall off PCs, Gust of wind to push them around, flying enemies to ambush them...etc. And to keep them paranoid, nothing at all may happen so that they feel good at overcoming a challenge easily.

[nobodez]

Not to mention Drama points get deadened after a certain level.

"Oh no, Fighter Mc'Gee died! He was so young!"
"Yep... So, want to Rez him now or later?"
"Meh, I've got some time to kill."
*Much Laughter Was Had by All*

Seriously, without soul destruction or negative energy killing (I think this is permanent), thing get a bit DBZ-ish.

If you're relying on character death to add drama in D&D, then you're not doing it right.

Heck, about the only point where character death matters is first, and maybe early second, level. After that point the party should have enough resources to get the party member back (even if they now have a plot to go find a druid to cast reincarnate on the dead character that's had gentle repose repeatedly cast on their corpse).

Death isn't fun. Now, if a character dies and it's just as hard to get out of the situation as it was to get in, then you've got drama, but then it's no longer "Bob's Dead", but instead "There's dozens of monsters approaching and we've got an hour until Bob's new body is ready. Too bad our druid didn't want to suck it up and play a proper cleric."

[Flickerdart]

"There's dozens of monsters approaching and we've got an hour until Bob's new body is ready. Too bad our druid didn't want to suck it up and play a proper cleric."
And then Bob's body is complete, but because the dice landed on GM's choice, he is now the angriest badger this side of Sigil.

[Jerthanis]

I wouldn't generally call these impossible plots due to PC capability. Of the listed examples I think the one that sticks out the most in my mind was when someone mentioned that you can't have an Airship Crash when the PCs have flight, since they can just take off and be perfectly safe.

But the airship still crashed... the PCs just utilized their abilities to resolve the situation in the least risky way to their persons, but without even attempting to resolve it by preventing the crash or saving additional lives.

It's also mentioned that Teleportation destroys travel plots, but if the plot is getting from one place to another, then that plot still happens. I think the actual plot which is destroyed is the idea of coming upon something unexpected on the way, and that can still be accomplished by saying, "Your teleportation spell delivered you to an unexpected destination for unknown reasons" if you really need it to happen.

As far as I'm concerned, the only plot that is destroyed (and not simply changed in some manner, or resolved in a way that is different than what we might do in real life) is Resurrection and speaking with the dead. Even speaking with the dead can actually not be that bad for plots either when you realize that they don't necessarily have objective knowledge themselves. Being dead doesn't make them a perfect witness any more than if they had survived. Have you ever seen Rashomon?

But yeah, Resurrection. If the plot involves a character dying by foul play and the characters' reactions and situations that develop from that, then applying resurrection takes that whole situation and winds back time. Imagine if Hamlet was a level 9 Cleric.

[Barsoom]

I remember reading a published adventure - a murder mystery for 5th level characters - where the author had to jump through hoops to prevent it from being ruined by Speak with Dead.

"The first victim's body was hacked into pieces. Speak with Dead is impossible. The second was attacked from behind and never saw the assailant. The third victim is actually blind... " and so on.

[Friv]

I remember reading a published adventure - a murder mystery for 5th level characters - where the author had to jump through hoops to prevent it from being ruined by Speak with Dead.

"The first victim's body was hacked into pieces. Speak with Dead is impossible. The second was attacked from behind and never saw the assailant. The third victim is actually blind... " and so on.

To be fair, if the killer knew that Speak With Dead was a thing, he would probably take steps to make sure that his crime couldn't be uncovered that easily. ;)

[OzymandiasX]

do some role reversal. If you want to plan for the party to go after some object you need the NPCs to protect, think about what measures the PCs would do to protect it. Including Divinations like communing to their god for help/advice, or circle of protections.
Mixing things up is a good idea. If your PCs are always the ones storming the keep, obtaining the item, assassinating the boss... flip things around and make them defend a keep, try to keep an item secure, or protect the good guy boss.

[Mighty_Chicken]

Give the party's casters incurable cancer and call Frank Quitely to help you.

At least that's how they did with Superman.

Seriously now, everything they do with first-tier superheroes to avoid these issues can be done with high-level parties.

Kryptonite is everywhere in Superman comics, why can't anti-magic fields be placed in strategical positions? Maybe armies even battle for those positions?

How is Hulk "balanced" in Marvel universe? As far as I know, as being a rogue, uncapable of controling his powers to full lenght, being persecuted.

How did they keep things interesting with Spawn? Wait, they didn't. Bad example.

It is tough, thou. I agree. I think no classical hero (Achiles, Ulysses etc) would be above level 6. Actually, everything I've seen in any literature, except super hero comics, could be done by 6th level D&D characters. And even Achilles hurt a goddess (Venus) once. So characters above that should be either ruling the world, or going beyond the world.

I think Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is a good inspiration for high level campaigns. The Swamp Thing isn't fighting mad scientists for survival anymore, he's fighting for the balance of the natural world, talking to ancient earthly spirits. His most painful defeat was when Lex Luthor found a way to stop him from "reincarnating". He ended up reincarnating in another planet. He had to travel the galaxy without knowing what to expect. He ended up "raped" by a fungus-space goddess - he left alive and unscarred, but still...

So there's a lot of option, they just may not sound as medieval fantasy adventures anymore. I'll just draw examples from my own post:

1) One character has a health problem that (apparently) can't be fixed even by their overpowered means.

2) Villains have anti-magic fields.

3) Most kingdoms the heroes know off want them killed. Of course they could pulverize the mortals if they wanted, but maybe they don't want to?

4) The heroes have many of their battles in a metaphysical that affects the common world but has different rules.

5) The heroes face allies and enemies that are alienated from them for some reason. They may not be entirely part of the same reality, powerful but too ancient to care about any events, partially sleeping (like Ancient Ones), and need to deal with those "alien" minds in the many possible ways.

6) A smart move from a much weaker enemy doesn't kill the PCs, but make them face a major defeat.

7) They face an overpowered enemy that doesn't want them dead, but takes something from them or imposes them a major defeat, then goes away.

All those situations are plots that can be made interesting with enough work. If they're challenges that can be gone throu with enough effort, they're doing their job as RPG plots.

A crucial characteristic of high-level D&D characters is that they're resilient. They die, but can come back; or even get smacked, but don't die. That's exactly what superheroes do in fiction and gods do in legend. In their defeat arcs, they go home, lick their wounds, and try again. That's not how heroic fantasy works - characters often die, and when they do it's for good. So high level D&D has a lot of option that heroic fantasy doesn't.

TL;DR: Don't get your ideas from heroic fantasy. Read superhero books and adapt it to a medieval setting and theme.

[Amphetryon]

Give the party's casters incurable cancer and call Frank Quitely to help you.

At least that's how they did with Superman.

Seriously now, everything they do with first-tier superheroes to avoid these issues can be done with high-level parties.

Kryptonite is everywhere in Superman comics, why can't anti-magic fields be placed in strategical positions? Maybe armies even battle for those positions?

How is Hulk "balanced" in Marvel universe? As far as I know, as being a rogue, uncapable of controling his powers to full lenght, being persecuted.

How did they keep things interesting with Spawn? Wait, they didn't. Bad example.

It is tough, thou. I agree. I think no classical hero (Achiles, Ulysses etc) would be above level 6. Actually, everything I've seen in any literature, except super hero comics, could be done by 6th level D&D characters. And even Achilles hurt a goddess (Venus) once. So characters above that should be either ruling the world, or going beyond the world.

I think Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is a good inspiration for high level campaigns. The Swamp Thing isn't fighting mad scientists for survival anymore, he's fighting for the balance of the natural world, talking to ancient earthly spirits. His most painful defeat was when Lex Luthor found a way to stop him from "reincarnating". He ended up reincarnating in another planet. He had to travel the galaxy without knowing what to expect. He ended up "raped" by a fungus-space goddess - he left alive and unscarred, but still...

So there's a lot of option, they just may not sound as medieval fantasy adventures anymore. I'll just draw examples from my own post:

1) One character has a health problem that (apparently) can't be fixed even by their overpowered means.

2) Villains have anti-magic fields.

3) Most kingdoms the heroes know off want them killed. Of course they could pulverize the mortals if they wanted, but maybe they don't want to?

4) The heroes have many of their battles in a metaphysical that affects the common world but has different rules.

5) The heroes face allies and enemies that are alienated from them for some reason. They may not be entirely part of the same reality, powerful but too ancient to care about any events, partially sleeping (like Ancient Ones), and need to deal with those "alien" minds in the many possible ways.

6) A smart move from a much weaker enemy doesn't kill the PCs, but make them face a major defeat.

7) They face an overpowered enemy that doesn't want them dead, but takes something from them or imposes them a major defeat, then goes away.

All those situations are plots that can be made interesting with enough work. If they're challenges that can be gone throu with enough effort, they're doing their job as RPG plots.

A crucial characteristic of high-level D&D characters is that they're resilient. They die, but can come back; or even get smacked, but don't die. That's exactly what superheroes do in fiction and gods do in legend. In their defeat arcs, they go home, lick their wounds, and try again. That's not how heroic fantasy works - characters often die, and when they do it's for good. So high level D&D has a lot of option that heroic fantasy doesn't.

TL;DR: Don't get your ideas from heroic fantasy. Read superhero books and adapt it to a medieval setting and theme.
Superheros and works of fiction operate with a different set of expectations than an RPG (assuming that, like D&D, there's a random element to conflict resolution), because the writer(s) can make the good guy win or lose as they see fit regardless of perceived power disparities. In D&D, spectacularly good or bad unexpected tactics and/or die rolls can skew outcomes in unpredictable ways unless such occurrences are ignored or fudged away. Many, though not all, DMs who borrow heavily from these mediums wind up with games that feel very 'railroady' as a consequence of the measures they have to take to deal with the fickle nature of the dice and Players doing unexpected things.

The other issue with this was mentioned before, though it is related to the 'railroady' problem. Namely, there's a very fine line between continuing to challenge your Characters and making your Players feel like their PCs' abilities being nerfed in the name of protecting the DM's plot. To make things harder, that line is not definitive across groups, because different groups will have different levels of tolerance for having their abilities countered before it becomes too much.

[Mnemnosyne]

But yeah, Resurrection. If the plot involves a character dying by foul play and the characters' reactions and situations that develop from that, then applying resurrection takes that whole situation and winds back time. Imagine if Hamlet was a level 9 Cleric.
But, if a character is important enough that killing them and keeping them dead is a big deal, then her murderers are likely to invest in the expense of using a 10,000 gp weapon and then destroying the soul permanently, so that they can never be resurrected. If the king is murdered, you can bet that his murderer will have taken the precaution of murdering him in a way that he can't be resurrected. Being killed permanently is definitely a threat, if it's treated relatively logically; ways exist to bring characters back to life, but so do ways to prevent that. Keep in mind too that a thinaun dagger, for instance, is a one-time expense. Any assassin worth their salt will definitely have one as soon as they can afford it, and they'll probably have taken the Scribe Scroll feat too, just so they can consume the soul forever in order to prevent resurrection. Because nothing says bad for business like an assassin who's kills don't stay dead.

Granted, this obviously doesn't work if you're having the woodcutter murder the baker down the street because his wife was cheating on him, but characters high level enough to fling resurrection spells around probably don't go around investigating 'minor' crimes like the murder of peasants. Unless we're talking a serial killer or mass murderer, in which case there's going to be so many dead that the cost of resurrecting them all is prohibitive (unless infinite wealth tricks are being allowed).

[dascarletm]

To be fair, if the killer knew that Speak With Dead was a thing, he would probably take steps to make sure that his crime couldn't be uncovered that easily. ;)

It's like today. Back in the 1400's people wouldn't worry about wearing gloves or leaving fingerprints when committing a crime, but now you would have to take precautions like that. Go watch White Collar and say, what would Neal Caffrey do if he was a rogue in DnD land.

[Geordnet]

Death isn't fun.
For you, perhaps. Other people like the adrenaline rush that the risk of something irrevocable gives them. That feeling dissapears when PC death is no longer irrevocable. (To say nothing of all the potential plot holes.)

[137beth]

It's like today. Back in the 1400's people wouldn't worry about wearing gloves or leaving fingerprints when committing a crime, but now you would have to take precautions like that. Go watch White Collar and say, what would Neal Caffrey do if he was a rogue in DnD land.

Huh?
Back then, people didn't use gloves because no one could trace fingerprints. But if the assassin knows about SWD, then yes, they are going to take extra precautions.

[Kane0]

Kudos to my DM, he is extremely good at rolling with what we do. Not in a sandbox fashion, just in a way that allows us both to do what we want.

So far we are only level 3, but at both of those level ups I (Warlock) got new shiny toys to play with. The challenges of level one and two weren't that big a deal any more (eg. AoE invocation vs rats, getting into a sealed warehouse without the rogue using spiderwalk and Baleful Utterance).

The game hasn't gotten easier for me, It has opened more options for me to play with and more varied (and nasty) things the DM can use on us. Yes, some things are just not the threat or challenge they used to be, but that's the point of levelling up isn't it?

I'm sure if the DM wanted a travel/time sensitive plot arc then there would be a way to do it that means I'm not totally stripped of my abilities and he doesn't have his plot destroyed.

[Prime32]

It is tough, thou. I agree. I think no classical hero (Achiles, Ulysses etc) would be above level 6. Actually, everything I've seen in any literature, except super hero comics, could be done by 6th level D&D characters.Read Journey to the West. :smalltongue:

[NichG]

Honestly I think of this thread more as a 'here are things you need to be aware of in the design of D&D and similar games' thing than a complaint thread of 'my PCs are too powerful!'. Yes, the DM can adjust for many of these plots (but generally speaking 'the DM can adjust' isn't taken to be a good excuse for other elements of bad design elsewhere in the game, so why take it here?), and yes, there are other specific plots that survive.

That still doesn't mean its not useful to be aware that maybe you shouldn't be trying to throw a brigands are blocking the road obstacle to a 9th level party who can fly/teleport around the roadblock.

It also means that for the purpose of making new systems, homebrew systems, and house rules, these are big things to be aware of from the point of view of 'how do you fix this?'

It was mentioned earlier that resource limits can help mitigate this, but for that to work the resource limits must be on the same timescale as the threat. Take the example of the brigand roadblock. If the party has, say, a week of travel time ahead of them then burning 6 spell slots on Fly on one of those days isn't going to really be an issue. You could randomly punish them for it after the fact with a random encounter that hits them on tapped resources, but the challenge wasn't really about 'how do we solve the bandits' - it became about 'how do we deal with this other random encounter with our wizard a few slots down?'.

[Duke of Urrel]

Yes, the DM can adjust for many of these plots (but generally speaking 'the DM can adjust' isn't taken to be a good excuse for other elements of bad design elsewhere in the game, so why take it here?) ...

There is definitely a design problem, NichG; I agree with you there. However, I don't think this problem is caused by malice or stupidity. I blame market forces that are beyond anybody's control.

Here's how I explain what has happened. Who is more numerous: players or DMs? Players, I believe. So who do most of the rulebooks cater to? The players. And who has to struggle to keep the game in balance against all the "get out of jail free" cards that players collect from peripheral rulebooks as they advance in level? The DMs, of course, because they don't get as many rulebooks that cater exclusively to them. I'm not an economist and I haven't done the math, but I have a hunch I'm right about this.

As it is, I think the game design does include some very powerful monsters that can continue to challenge even very high-level characters. Maybe at higher level, characters increasingly should find that rather than go look for trouble, trouble comes looking for them. Success creates jealousy and attracts the attention of ever-more powerful enemies. So instead of being "on a quest," advanced characters may find themselves more often "on the run" or "on their guard."

I don't know, because I haven't field-tested this last idea at all. Maybe there needs to be a thread exclusively for experienced dungeon masters to share their strategies. Because really, keeping highly advanced player characters challenged is seriously hard, particularly for those of us who are fond of interesting narratives that offer more than one video-game-like combat scene after another.

[Flickerdart]

It's not a flaw that 20th level characters wielding world-shattering magics are not inconvenienced by bandit ambushes on the high road, in the same way that it's not a flaw for 1st level characters to be unable to fight an interplanar war. Expecting Sherlock Holmes to deal with the same challenges as Blues Clues is not going to get you anywhere in any system that has vertical character advancement.

[Duke of Urrel]

After one game where we PCs spent dozens of Commune spells trying to locate secret enemy bases (covered by antimagic so we couldn't scry, but the gods knew where they were). We sat with a map of the continent and asked along the lines of 'is it north of this line? is it east of that line?' until we had narrowed it down to just a few square kilometers. And we did this about 4 times.
The DM allowed it because we literally had no way of finding the things otherwise without covering the entire continent by hand. This was banned after the adventure.

There's another way around this problem. Don't allow any lines on your maps! Yes, I know, maps are usually written on grid paper for our convenience, but real-world cartographers didn't invent latitude and longitude until very recent times. In medieval times, you didn't have nice, neat lines running north-south and east-west; instead, you had only landmarks. Medieval maps were wildly inaccurate and had lots of mostly empty spaces marked "Here be dragons." So if a PC uses the Commune spell to ask, "Is our destination north of this line?" you could have the gods respond: "Line? There is no line!" And wilderness areas should have few landmarks, if any.

[Scow2]

"I'm going to cast Godbother until you give me a satisfactory answer. For both our sakes: Where's the bandit camp?"

"... Just because I'm a God doesn't mean I'm omniscient. You can figure it out."

[JoshuaZ]

If you're relying on character death to add drama in D&D, then you're not doing it right.

Heck, about the only point where character death matters is first, and maybe early second, level. After that point the party should have enough resources to get the party member back (even if they now have a plot to go find a druid to cast reincarnate on the dead character that's had gentle repose repeatedly cast on their corpse).

Death isn't fun. Now, if a character dies and it's just as hard to get out of the situation as it was to get in, then you've got drama, but then it's no longer "Bob's Dead", but instead "There's dozens of monsters approaching and we've got an hour until Bob's new body is ready. Too bad our druid didn't want to suck it up and play a proper cleric."

This depends a lot on the level and the campaign. First, there are a number of alternate rules in Heroes of Horror (for example) which can help make death much scarier, and that's fine. It isn't an issue of doing it right or not. What I think is fair that if one is using completely bog standard rules, then death isn't a big issue for high level characters. But even then, there are quite a few nasty things that can turn resurrection into its own quest (Trap the Soul is the most obvious). And then there are some really nasty spells which destroy the soul itself. Necrotic Termination from Libris Mortis is the most obvious.

[Mikeavelli]

There's another way around this problem. Don't allow any lines on your maps! Yes, I know, maps are usually written on grid paper for our convenience, but real-world cartographers didn't invent latitude and longitude until very recent times. In medieval times, you didn't have nice, neat lines running north-south and east-west; instead, you had only landmarks. Medieval maps were wildly inaccurate and had lots of mostly empty spaces marked "Here be dragons." So if a PC uses the Commune spell to ask, "Is our destination north of this line?" you could have the gods respond: "Line? There is no line!" And wilderness areas should have few landmarks, if any.

No offense, but this is a terrible idea. So was creating a scenario where there was literally no other way to find the camp.

This is the point where I stop role-playing and just ask the DM, 'Alright, you're going to shoot down anything that isn't your pre-determined solution to this puzzle. Lead me by the nose here."

As a player, it's immensely frustrating when the various information gathering options available to players don't work for no good reason, especially since it's often coupled with enemy omniscience. As a DM, I try to plan out adventures so that divination will always provide *some kind of useful information.* Indeed, 'find the hiding spot' is no longer even an interesting plotline after having done it manually for ten levels.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, with the kind of power you have at the point you can commune repeatedly, it would be easier to just scorch the entire area you think the hiding spot is in than search for it.

[Duke of Urrel]

As a DM, I try to plan out adventures so that divination will always provide *some kind of useful information.* Indeed, 'find the hiding spot' is no longer even an interesting plotline after having done it manually for ten levels.

Saying, "Line? There is no line," is useful information! That's a message with four more words than you normally get from the Commune spell, which is usually limited to "yes" or "no." And it suggests to any thinking player that when you ask a geographic question, you need to refer to something real, not something imaginary, such as a line drawn by a futuristic cartographer with the aid of satellite images.

[Flickerdart]

Saying, "Line? There is no line," is useful information! That's a message with four more words than you normally get from the Commune spell, which is usually limited to "yes" or "no." And it suggests to any thinking player that when you ask a geographic question, you need to refer to something real, not something imaginary, such as a line drawn by a futuristic cartographer with the aid of satellite images.
"Is X location further north than Y location by Z miles" is a perfectly reasonable question to ask without needing to use imaginary lines.

Plus, getting high enough to simply draw the world below is trivial in D&D and impossible with medieval tech. D&D is not a medieval world, and pretending that it is leads to tons of things not working properly.

[NichG]

There is definitely a design problem, NichG; I agree with you there. However, I don't think this problem is caused by malice or stupidity. I blame market forces that are beyond anybody's control.


Well its kind of been pointed out - vertical advancement creates this situation usually. But its also not just vertical advancement but the scope of what is entailed by advancement. Certain abilities tend to 'make' plot, as in they have things that take effort to overcome or they generate situations that are more complex.

Other types of abilities can be generally classified as 'bypasses' - teleportation bypasses intervening space, flight bypasses terrain considerations, divinations (in the D&D sense) bypass the process of investigation and discovery (but a Greek oracle style divination wouldn't, since those tend to be cryptic).

The thing that generally makes bypasses cut out plots is if they're available with reliability and at need. Flight that is shut down by low ceilings and weather is less of a bypass. Teleportation that requires initial legwork such as creating a symbol at the arrival point is less of a bypass. Divinations that are cryptic, and where 'I don't know' may be a valid outcome are less of a bypass. You can still have vertical advancement in these systems and still have new player abilities without them becoming sources of negation of plots.




I don't know, because I haven't field-tested this last idea at all. Maybe there needs to be a thread exclusively for experienced dungeon masters to share their strategies. Because really, keeping highly advanced player characters challenged is seriously hard, particularly for those of us who are fond of interesting narratives that offer more than one video-game-like combat scene after another.

This would be a very useful resource and a good read for anyone seeking to run high level games.

[TuggyNE]

Saying, "Line? There is no line," is useful information! That's a message with four more words than you normally get from the Commune spell, which is usually limited to "yes" or "no." And it suggests to any thinking player that when you ask a geographic question, you need to refer to something real, not something imaginary, such as a line drawn by a futuristic cartographer with the aid of satellite images.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but the idea of latitude and longitude is more than two millennia old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_longitude#Ancient_History)*. Combine that with the earlier-noted abilities to gain a high panoramic view, and it's not at all difficult to suppose that deities would know exactly what you were talking about.

*This surprised me; I would have thought it was invented sometime between 1300 and 1500, off-hand.

[Slipperychicken]

"Is X location further north than Y location by Z miles" is a perfectly reasonable question to ask without needing to use imaginary lines.

"Is X location north relative to Y location?"

"Is X location east relative to Y location?"

"Is X location north of Y location by N or fewer miles?"

"Is X location north of Y location by N or more miles?"

"Is X location within N miles of Landmark Y?"

"Is X location within N miles of any of the following locations: [list of probable locations or landmarks]?"

Once you get a location, you can get some other stuff describing it like "does location X contain walls/trees/caves?", "Is location X most commonly accessed through a door?".



"Is X location between N miles and M miles away from each of landmarks Y, Z, and AA?" would allow you to triangulate it, given an accurate map. Unfortunately, we don't have one of those.

[Flickerdart]

"Is X location north relative to Y location?"

"Is X location east relative to Y location?"

"Is X location north of Y location by N or fewer miles?"

"Is X location north of Y location by N or more miles?"

"Is X location within N miles of Landmark Y?"

"Is X location within N miles of any of the following locations: [list of probable locations or landmarks]?"

Once you get a location, you can get some other stuff describing it like "does location X contain walls/trees/caves?", "Is location X most commonly accessed through a door?".



"Is X location between N miles and M miles away from each of landmarks Y, Z, and AA?" would allow you to triangulate it, given an accurate map. Unfortunately, we don't have one of those.
This really reminds me of this incredibly old gag (http://www.gksoft.com/a/fun/catch-lion.html). Witness a joke from the birth of the internet!

[Slipperychicken]

This really reminds me of this incredibly old gag (http://www.gksoft.com/a/fun/catch-lion.html). Witness a joke from the birth of the internet!

Interesting.

I also wanted to add "Is location X aboveground?" and "Is location X present on the material plane?" to the list of questions, since I realized the present ones wouldn't solve for altitude or plane.

[Flickerdart]

If deities are incapable of discussing a designated point, we can always make a landmark using any of a number of methods, the simplest of which is carrying and dropping painted rocks in desired locations and then referring to them.

[icefractal]

It's not a flaw that 20th level characters wielding world-shattering magics are not inconvenienced by bandit ambushes on the high road, in the same way that it's not a flaw for 1st level characters to be unable to fight an interplanar war. Expecting Sherlock Holmes to deal with the same challenges as Blues Clues is not going to get you anywhere in any system that has vertical character advancement.This. I mean, this list is a useful idea, the DM should definitely be forewarned about what kind of things won't work - but "levelling beyond certain types of challenge" is not a problem, any more than "levelling beyond an angry bear" is a problem.

In fact, I would personally say that the reverse is a problem. If we've done the paperwork to level up 10+ times, but we're still dealing with the same type of challenges and palette-swap enemies? That's a waste of time and effort.

[dascarletm]

Huh?
Back then, people didn't use gloves because no one could trace fingerprints. But if the assassin knows about SWD, then yes, they are going to take extra precautions.

Exactly my point. As abilities to solve crimes evolve, the precautions criminals take to keep from being caught also evolve. If these spells (Speak with Dead, etc) exist then competent criminals will know about them, and develop methods to thwart such techniques

[Duke of Urrel]

I am happy that my modest and very specific proposal, which can be boiled down to this: "Geographic questions directed at deities must refer to real in-world locations, not imaginary intersections of blue lines on graph paper and not nonexistent latitude and longitude lines" has generated so much discussion!

I have no disagreement with anything that was said, either. I am fascinated to learn from Tuggyne that the concepts of latitude and longitude are much older than I thought. So maybe I'd have to allow questions that refer to such things as distance from either pole of a round planet, or distance from the circle that is equidistant from both poles, namely the equator, as well as to more familiar landmarks.

As a result of all these considerations, my specific proposal wouldn't make much of a difference, would it? It wouldn't even do what I intended it to do, which is motivate my PCs to travel around a little so that they become familiar with more local landmarks to chart their position from. (Now that I think about it, I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned constellations.) If PCs would really rather keep travel to a minimum (and avoiding random encounters is a good reason to do that), there's still nothing about my rule that stops them from using the Commune spell to pinpoint their target and then using the Teleport spell to jump them there.

So what my proposal has really proved is how very difficult it is for a dungeon master to avoid Cybris75's original problem: the gradual disappearance of entertaining plot possibilities as PCs advance in level. In theory, it should be possible for a creative DM with world-making power to challenge every one of the PCs' magical super-powers, but in practice? It's really hard!

It's especially hard if you want to make special rules (or special exceptions to the rules) only if they make sense in-game. I proposed my "There are no lines" rule because I don't want to limit how frequently PCs cast the Commune spell merely in order to force them into a particular narrative. I don't like arbitrary, ad-hoc rules with purely meta-game reasons any more than PCs do. But devising a special rule that creates the specific challenge the DM wants to create (as I have just tried and failed to do here), yet also makes sense in the game world, takes not only a far-reaching imagination on the DM's part, but also a thorough understanding of the normal rules that matches or exceeds every player's. Yes, this is hard.

[Flickerdart]

So what my proposal has really proved is how very difficult it is for a dungeon master to avoid Cybris75's original problem: the gradual disappearance of entertaining plot possibilities as PCs advance in level. In theory, it should be possible for a creative DM with world-making power to challenge every one of the PCs' magical super-powers, but in practice? It's really hard!
With every disappearing possibility, a new one opens up. If your PCs can now teleport instead of having to walk everywhere, you can't jump them with bandits anymore, but now they might be the only people who can escape with the MacGuffin that the invading orc army wants. If they can solve murder mysteries through resurrection or speaking with the dead, that just means they can solve cases nobody else can; every single police force anywhere will be requesting their aid.

Spending all your time coming up with ideas for countering PC powers seems like a waste of time, when you could be using all that effort to actually let them use their powers for fun results.

[Duke of Urrel]

Spending all your time coming up with ideas for countering PC powers seems like a waste of time, when you could be using all that effort to actually let them use their powers for fun results.

That seems generally true, but consider again the specific case I've just struggled with: How to get PCs to travel a little rather than always cast the Commune spell to find their next destination and the Teleport spell to arrive there. Figuring out a way to do this would be no waste of time if your aim is to give the PC party's ranger – who has invested a lot in Survival skill and misses wilderness travel – something to do, rather than let the party's cleric and wizard have all the fun.

[Slipperychicken]

If deities are incapable of discussing a designated point, we can always make a landmark using any of a number of methods, the simplest of which is carrying and dropping painted rocks in desired locations and then referring to them.

It's also reasonable to use self-reference (is location X north of me?), which also determines precisely the distance and direction you need to travel to get there. All you need is North/South distance and East/West distance, and from there you have a triangle from which you can use Pythagorean theorem for distance, and can math your way for a direction (I did poorly in that part of math class. I think it involves sine/cosine/tangent functions).

[PersonMan]

That seems generally true, but consider again the specific case I've just struggled with: How to get PCs to travel a little rather than always cast the Commune spell to find their next destination and the Teleport spell to arrive there. Figuring out a way to do this would be no waste of time if your aim is to give the PC party's ranger – who has invested a lot in Survival skill and misses wilderness travel – something to do, rather than let the party's cleric and wizard have all the fun.

My idea: Talk to the cleric and wizard about how the ranger is missing wilderness travel, etc. and tell them that if, in the future, you deny divinations and the like it's to let him do his thing and not to mess with them. Remind them that, if they ever have a problem or something they'd really like to have happen, they can talk to you about it.

Out-of-game problem (Ranger is not having fun), out-of-game solution (talk to other players, who are presumably also there to have fun).

In the future, perhaps mention that some things, like wilderness travel and large investments into Survival, but also other niche things, should be talked over with you so you can work it into the campaign and/or say "I'm sorry, Survival won't be useful in this game, and I'd hate for you to waste skill points, so something else might be better...".

[Flickerdart]

That seems generally true, but consider again the specific case I've just struggled with: How to get PCs to travel a little rather than always cast the Commune spell to find their next destination and the Teleport spell to arrive there. Figuring out a way to do this would be no waste of time if your aim is to give the PC party's ranger – who has invested a lot in Survival skill and misses wilderness travel – something to do, rather than let the party's cleric and wizard have all the fun.
Why would he invest a lot in Survival? The highest DC in that skill is 15, and tracking is obviated by a 1st level spell. The epic DCs are marginally useful, but way too high for what they do.

[Duke of Urrel]

My idea: Talk to the cleric and wizard about how the ranger is missing wilderness travel, etc. and tell them that if, in the future, you deny divinations and the like it's to let him do his thing and not to mess with them. Remind them that, if they ever have a problem or something they'd really like to have happen, they can talk to you about it.

In the future, perhaps mention that some things, like wilderness travel and large investments into Survival, but also other niche things, should be talked over with you so you can work it into the campaign and/or say "I'm sorry, Survival won't be useful in this game, and I'd hate for you to waste skill points, so something else might be better...".

There's nothing wrong with the solution you give in your first paragraph, but it's less than ideal. Sure, you can talk the party's wizard and cleric into doing less so that their ranger can do more, but that's not creating more fun for everyone; that's just giving two players less of it so that one can have more. Besides, meta-game solutions are less fun, both for the DM and for players, than in-game solutions.

I like what you suggest in your second paragraph, but an even better thing to do would be to develop your campaigns to follow your PCs' development, rather than the reverse. Though it's impossible to please everyone, it should be possible to create challenges of sufficient variety to give everybody something to do now and then. The question is only: How?


Why would he invest a lot in Survival? The highest DC in that skill is 15, and tracking is obviated by a 1st level spell. The epic DCs are marginally useful, but way too high for what they do.

Survival is what rangers do, and although the base DC for a lot of applications of this skill is low, modifiers can send it much higher in extreme environments, and extreme environments are an irresistible attraction for rangers, I should think. Unfortunately, everybody else in the ranger's party is likely to regard them as barriers that they would much rather avoid by teleportation. Right now, I am thinking of two ways to give a high-level ranger more Survival action:

(1) Somehow engineer the separation of the ranger from the rest of the party, so that he or she gets stranded in the wilderness, or on another plane of existence.

(2) Put the PCs in charge of protecting a large group of NPCs too numerous to teleport or to feed by the power of one cleric to create food for them.

[Flickerdart]

Survival is what rangers do

No it isn't. Rangers get Track for free and Survival on their list, but any character that defines themselves by a single skill is going to feel useless in every situation that skill is not applicable.



and although the base DC for a lot of applications of this skill is low, modifiers can send it much higher in extreme environments, and extreme environments are an irresistible attraction for rangers, I should think. Unfortunately, everybody else in the ranger's party is likely to regard them as barriers that they would much rather avoid by teleportation. Right now, I am thinking of two ways to give a high-level ranger more Survival action:

(1) Somehow engineer the separation of the ranger from the rest of the party, so that he or she gets stranded in the wilderness, or on another plane of existence.

(2) Put the PCs in charge of protecting a large group of NPCs too numerous to teleport or to feed by the power of one cleric to create food for them.
What is the difference between "I can teleport to solve this problem" and "i take 10 on Survival to solve this problem"?

[Duke of Urrel]

What is the difference between "I can teleport to solve this problem" and "i take 10 on Survival to solve this problem"?

In the former case, the party's wizard (or cleric) gets to do it – again – whereas in the latter case, the party's ranger gets to do something for once, and the entire PC party gets unexpected challenges (or challenges specially prepared by the DM for special plot-related reasons) on the way.

[Flickerdart]

In the former case, the party's wizard (or cleric) gets to do it – again – whereas in the latter case, the party's ranger gets to do something for once,
If the ranger is so useless that a single skill check will make him feel useful, you have deeper problems than Teleport.



and the entire PC party gets unexpected challenges (or challenges specially prepared by the DM for special plot-related reasons) on the way.
Or they can get challenges when they get there, and not have to waste time on random encounters before getting back to the plot. Besides, how exactly is the ranger being useful if the party blunders into monsters and dangers? Isn't his whole job to get the party through the wilds safely?

[Barsoom]

give the PC party's ranger – who has invested a lot in Survival skill and misses wilderness travel – something to do, rather than let the party's cleric and wizard have all the fun.
It's a noble goal, but it's better to accept that above a certain level some classes, class features and skills are simply obsoleted completely. "Joe, I appreciate the fact you put in a lot of effort in your swim training, but we're in a nuclear submarine right now".

Allowing your ranger to change his character would be a better solution than awkwardly forcing travel-for-the-sake-of-travel on everyone else.


Or they can get challenges when they get there, and not have to waste time on random encounters before getting back to the plot.
That would work too.

[Duke of Urrel]

Or they can get challenges when they get there, and not have to waste time on random encounters before getting back to the plot.

It appears, then, that Cybris75's original claim, at least in regard to the "wilderness travel" plotline, is sound: Beyond a certain level of PC experience, this plotline is no longer viable. Or if it is, none of us here has yet found an attractive in-game solution to the general obsolescence of the "road movie" plot once the PCs can teleport.

I'm not sure that I'm ready to throw in the towel just yet, but I for one shall have to think about Cybris75's problem for a good long time before I propose any more solutions...

If you're still reading this, Cybris75, I think congratulations are in order!

[NichG]

The point of 'plotlines disappearing' is that they become trivial. Lets say the PCs can solve murders with Resurrection. How is it any less trivial if they're asked to do this 100 times compared to being asked to solve one murder, and figuring out that Resurrection is the answer? Especially if they're being paid enough to cover the costs of the spell.

If Teleport can be used to get the McGuffin out from behind the army lines, once you have the McGuffin, the actual part of the game involving the escape is still just as trivial as if you hadn't initiated the plot on the basis of 'well the PCs have teleport and so therefore can succeed!'.

Its similar to if you said 'the PCs have potent save-or-dies now, so they can go up against this powerful monster' when the binary nature of the save-or-dies means either the fight will be over in one round or the PCs will get obliterated.

The thing that makes for a plotline are moments of relevant decision-making. That is to say, places where 'do we do X or Y' or more generally 'what do we do now?' have multiple valid answers that explore different paths. Anything where the answer is 'oh X obviously' is basically just extended narration.

Now, an example where a new plotline is created by, e.g., Teleport would be: the PCs open a messenger service because they're faster than the alternatives for physical packages and the like, and then someone ships something that gets the PCs attention/otherwise deviates from the normal operations. The normal operations themselves aren't actually 'a plotline', because there are no real decisions for the PCs to make that make a difference.

[nobodez]

What's really funny is that, with the right preparation, your players might want to travel.

In Eberron, if you give the PCs an airship (either one they can't sell, since it's too expensive to sell, or some they merely have exclusive access to) they'll want to use that (since it can carry stuff and people, like cohorts, companions, and McGuffins) rather than teleport. I even gave the airship the ability to plane shift so they'd take it with them on higher level adventures (which made it even more expensive and thus impossible to sell). Since it had fairly decent weapons, it allowed the non-casters to play during aerial fight sequences too.

Sure, the PCs could have just used teleport, but I made it so the players wanted to travel the distance instead. I saw a plot difficulty, and solved it by making it cooler to travel rather than teleport. It's more difficult in other settings, but airships aren't that hard to import, and if it's expensive enough, they can't sell it, turning it from loot to a plot device.

[Amphetryon]

What's really funny is that, with the right preparation, your players might want to travel.

In Eberron, if you give the PCs an airship (either one they can't sell, since it's too expensive to sell, or some they merely have exclusive access to) they'll want to use that (since it can carry stuff and people, like cohorts, companions, and McGuffins) rather than teleport. I even gave the airship the ability to plane shift so they'd take it with them on higher level adventures (which made it even more expensive and thus impossible to sell). Since it had fairly decent weapons, it allowed the non-casters to play during aerial fight sequences too.

Sure, the PCs could have just used teleport, but I made it so the players wanted to travel the distance instead. I saw a plot difficulty, and solved it by making it cooler to travel rather than teleport. It's more difficult in other settings, but airships aren't that hard to import, and if it's expensive enough, they can't sell it, turning it from loot to a plot device.
Some Players may see this as the DM railroading AND enforcing WBL restrictions via a cash sink that they can't easily take wherever they please. I'm glad it worked for you.

[nobodez]

Some Players may see this as the DM railroading AND enforcing WBL restrictions via a cash sink that they can't easily take wherever they please. I'm glad it worked for you.

Well, considering I make no bones about my love of mixing genres and WotC d20 system games, I borrowed a bit from d20 Modern and gave it a "Shrinking Paintjob" from Urban Arcana. Actually, I pretty much stole d20 Modern's vehicular combat rules for airships.

My players did enjoy the game, mainly because I made their (and my) enjoyment the guiding principle behind my DMing. They were the Big Damn Heroes, and so I made the story about them being just that (with time travel, alternate prime material planes, ethergaunts, and magic vs. tech to spice things up at higher levels). We only stopped when they'd defeated the multi-dimensional ethergaunt empire that spanned thousands of alternate/mirror prime material planes and reached 20th level. I mean, once you save the multiverse, there's really nothing else you can do (I was thinking of throwing a few mirror planes worth of tarrasques at them, but with the aforementioned airship and being 20th level, the only difficulty would be keeping the, away from inhabited places).

[Mithril Leaf]

Well, considering I make no bones about my love of mixing genres and WotC d20 system games, I borrowed a bit from d20 Modern and gave it a "Shrinking Paintjob" from Urban Arcana. Actually, I pretty much stole d20 Modern's vehicular combat rules for airships.

My players did enjoy the game, mainly because I made their (and my) enjoyment the guiding principle behind my DMing. They were the Big Damn Heroes, and so I made the story about them being just that (with time travel, alternate prime material planes, ethergaunts, and magic vs. tech to spice things up at higher levels). We only stopped when they'd defeated the multi-dimensional ethergaunt empire that spanned thousands of alternate/mirror prime material planes and reached 20th level. I mean, once you save the multiverse, there's really nothing else you can do (I was thinking of throwing a few mirror planes worth of tarrasques at them, but with the aforementioned airship and being 20th level, the only difficulty would be keeping the, away from inhabited places).

You seem like my kinda DM. Sounds like a fun game.

And as far as some advancement challenges, for certain players leveling over problems is part of the fun. Finding ways that they can expend minimal resources to effectively do things is probably one of the bigger draws for people that play tier one characters as tier ones. If I'm playing a big strong beatstick, maybe throwing more numbers at me is a good thing. I like big numbers and close combat, so what's wrong with a bit of indulgence as far as absurd strength on the DM's part. You can vertically advance many plots as easily as laterally advance them.