[3.5] Effects of a Lack of Sleep

[Maginomicon]

I found it extremely odd that there didn't seem to be any official rules stated anywhere on the effects of a lack of sleep. Just now though, I came across something in the Elder Evils book that provides a canon effect for a lack of sleep.

As seen in the entry for the Appalling Fecundity sign; Elder Evils page 9:

A living creature can go without sleep for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum one). Thereafter it is fatigued, remaining in this state for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (again, minimum one); if it would become fatigued during that time, it is exhausted instead. Each day after that period, the creature takes 1 point of Wisdom damage. If the total Wisdom damage exceeds its Hit Dice, the creature is affected as if by an insanity spell.
(the effects above can only be alleviated by sleep, and the Wisdom damage continues to accumulate thereafter until the creature falls unconscious)

The entry has some other extraneous information that's more flavored to the Appalling Fecundity sign itself, but finally we have an official mechanical answer to what happens when you go without sleep. :biggrin:

EDIT: As you might expect, later in the entry it makes it clear that the insanity effect, like all the effects of a lack of sleep, is temporary until the affected creature sleeps (or what passes for sleeping), at which point all of the effects vanish.

[thethird]

This is pretty cool to know :smallsmile:

[Renen]

Well, Lets just say nothing good (http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/The_Russian_Sleep_Experiment)

[Phelix-Mu]

A living creature can go without sleep for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum one). Thereafter it is fatigued, remaining in this state for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (again, minimum one); if it would become fatigued during that time, it is exhausted instead. Each day after that period, the creature takes 1 point of Wisdom damage. If the total Wisdom damage exceeds its Hit Dice, the creature is affected as if by an insanity spell.

So, this is not a great mechanic (not to mention poorly written).

Let's assume a fairly healthy commoner has a Con of 10, Wis of 10, and 1HD. He can go without sleep for one day, and is fatigued for the entirety of the next day. Any exertion or now makes it exhausted. This is all pretty accurate, to my mind.

Now, the next clause is not well-defined. I assume they mean "each day without sleep after that period...." But if they meant that, they should have written that.

Anyway, Jo Commoner tries to stay awake a second day. He is now exhausted, and takes 1 Wisdom damage. This seems okay-ish. The Wisdom damage should probably be higher.

Now, the real problem is that after three days he goes bonkers. And it seems permanent, since it is as the spell insanity. This is ridiculous, and while it is a bit realistic (sleep deprivation does make a person crazy), it's not a good game rule, since the only way to cure it would be...heal or break enchantment? The insanity should definitely go away.

The other problem is that lack of sleep will also kill you. It will take a long time for this mechanic to knock Jo Commoner into a coma, though long before then he will be effectively crippled by combo insanity and being reduced to a drooling child. The mechanic never affects his health in terms of Fortitude saves or organ damage that accrues as lack of sleep continues.

[Maginomicon]

Now, the real problem is that after three days he goes bonkers. And it seems permanent, since it is as the spell insanity. This is ridiculous, and while it is a bit realistic (sleep deprivation does make a person crazy), it's not a good game rule, since the only way to cure it would be...heal or break enchantment? The insanity should definitely go away.
That's my bad actually. It's directly stated later in the entry that...

Only a sleep or deep slumber spell or equivalent effect can grant rest for a time, after which the effects of the sign begin anew.
This should answer the issue of whether the insanity ends after the person sleeps. The requirement to use those spells or a similar effect and that they even then provide only temporary relief is easily interpreted as associated with the Appalling Fecundity sign itself rather than sleep as a whole.

[Renen]

But why would he get organ damage? Note that even the scientists now cant figure out why we need sleep. As such, I do agree that WIS is the only thing to take a hit. But I say that if the guy sleeps, or is knocked unconscious, then the madness goes away.

[Phelix-Mu]

But why would he get organ damage? Note that even the scientists now cant figure out why we need sleep. As such, I do agree that WIS is the only thing to take a hit. But I say that if the guy sleeps, or is knocked unconscious, then the madness goes away.

Critical healing processes and cell regeneration are increased during sleep. While insanity will happen well in advance of death, I'm pretty sure that the actual cause of death from exhaustion is heart failure or the like. This will never happen with this mechanic, as neither Wis damage, fatigue, or exhaustion will ever kill you.

The other problem is the other end of the spectrum. Let's look and Dorskeld, a dwarven 10th-level fighter. He has a 12 Wis, a 20 Con, and 10HD.

He can stay awake for five days before becoming fatigued. Not realistic, and I think this may even contradict implied rules in several places, which indicate that one night of poor sleep causes fatigue (I'm thinking of the Insomniac flaw and the rules for sleeping in armour, if memory serves).

On day 6 of no sleep, he becomes fatigued. The fatigued state continues for five days. On day 11, he takes his first point of Wisdom damage.

Dorskeld doesn't become insane until...day 21? And at that point he is only 2 days from the Wisdom 0 coma. This is silly, and that's only for a low Wisdom, mid-HD character. Basically, melee-types at high level will fall into a coma first, and never actually be insane. At least I think.

The other problem that I see, is even without sleep, a character not exerting himself may continue recovering Wisdom points. The rule should state that natural healing is nerfed somehow to avoid this, if this is the case.

[Maginomicon]

Critical healing processes and cell regeneration are increased during sleep. While insanity will happen well in advance of death, I'm pretty sure that the actual cause of death from exhaustion is heart failure or the like. This will never happen with this mechanic, as neither Wis damage, fatigue, or exhaustion will ever kill you.

It's highly likely that when writing up this lack of sleep effect they wanted to make it explicitly the case that neither high-level characters (through CONmod limits) nor level-irrelevant characters (through HD limits) are unaffected by a lack of sleep. They were very likely just covering both extremes. Everything else can be attributed to the fact that D&D is a game of abstractions and should be treated as within certain limits of simplicity for the purposes of those abstractions.


The other problem is the other end of the spectrum. Let's look and Dorskeld, a dwarven 10th-level fighter. He has a 12 Wis, a 20 Con, and 10HD.

<truncated for clarity>

Dorskeld doesn't become insane until...day 21? And at that point he is only 2 days from the Wisdom 0 coma. This is silly, and that's only for a low Wisdom, mid-HD character.

Adventurers and creatures with a high number of hit dice are intrinsically made of tougher stuff than the average person. It thus makes sense that they can go a much longer period without sleep without going insane.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm also unclear on what happens after the Wisdom 0 coma. Does this count as sleep? Cause I think you will recover 1 point of Wisdom after being in the coma for one day. Does one day in a coma reset the counter? If it doesn't, that's also a problem.

I agree that it's okay if the rule breaks down at high levels. But if you were aiming for verisimilitude with the rule, then I think there should be some chance of physical damage or Fortitude save v nonlethal damage or something. Something that will make it more likely that you will collapse unconscious before going insane. If anyone out there has ever tried to stay awake for several days without stimulants, there is significant push back from the brain and body alike.

Escalating Will saves to continue staying awake would be ground zero for a house rule, if I ever felt it was necessary.

Also, how do elves fit into this? Dragons? And a whole slew of critters just don't need to sleep....

[Maginomicon]

I'm also unclear on what happens after the Wisdom 0 coma. Does this count as sleep? Cause I think you will recover 1 point of Wisdom after being in the coma for one day. Does one day in a coma reset the counter? If it doesn't, that's also a problem.

There's no reason being unconscious wouldn't count as sleep. (Sleep is just a longer-term form of being unconscious.) Natural recovery of Wisdom damage is as-normal, and it would make sense that it might take a full day or longer of sleep to recover enough Wisdom to wake up.


Also, how do elves fit into this? Dragons? And a whole slew of critters just don't need to sleep....
If they don't sleep but have a racial trait that passes for sleeping (such as trance), then that can be easily interpreted as being affected by a lack of sleep.

If they don't need to sleep at all (such as undead, plants, and constructs), then the lack-of-sleep effects are irrelevant.

[Susano-wo]

not to mention that a 20 con mod is greater than normal human maximum :smallbiggrin:
this actually sounds like a nice way to officially adjudicate it if you need one. stretches realism in the case of highh stats, but...well, its dnd :smallamused:

[Slipperychicken]

For this, I'd just crib the Forced March rules, make the base time about 3xCon hours, and have the Con check DC start at 1. That would be for relatively non-strenuous activity like a college student's daily life. Strenuous activity like continuous marching would use the Forced March rules directly.

Also, I'm pretty the IRL record is around a week without sleep, so the official rule seems reasonable.

[Phelix-Mu]

From PHB

Sleeping in Armor: A character who sleeps in medium or heavy
armor is automatically fatigued the next day. He or she takes a –2
penalty on Strength and Dexterity and can’t charge or run. Sleeping
in light armor does not cause fatigue.

The number of things that cause fatigue in fairly short order doesn't match up well with being able to stay awake for Con Mod days before fatigue sets in.

I do like some aspects of the mechanic, but I'm not sure it's tough enough for my tastes. I'd like faster onset of more minor penalties, and some saves. Something along the lines of what Slipperychicken suggested.

[Maginomicon]

The number of things that cause fatigue in fairly short order doesn't match up well with being able to stay awake for Con Mod days before fatigue sets in.

Except there's an intrinsic difference of scope between "choosing to sleep, but not in an ideal fashion" and "choosing not to sleep at all for days on end". Comparing the two is mostly moot for this reason.

More to the point, how often does the party itself not sleep for days on end? If the party contains casters or manifesters, they have a finite amount of energy before that energy is expended and must as a party rest to recover it. This has (at least in my experience) been the chief reason a party ever stops to sleep (even above regaining HP from rest). As-is, this long-term period before the fatigue and worse kicks in hits everyone regardless of their class, and the unimportance of a need to sleep in-general ultimately means it very likely does not need a rapid onset.

[Phelix-Mu]

Except there's an intrinsic difference of scope between "choosing to sleep, but not in an ideal fashion" and "choosing not to sleep at all for days on end". Comparing the two is mostly moot for this reason.

More to the point, how often does the party itself not sleep for days on end? If the party contains casters or manifesters, they have a finite amount of energy before that energy is expended and must as a party rest to recover it. This has (at least in my experience) been the chief reason a party ever stops to sleep (even above regaining HP from rest). As-is, this long-term period before the fatigue and worse kicks in hits everyone regardless of their class, and the unimportance of a need to sleep in-general ultimately means it very likely does not need a rapid onset.

Mostly, I would tend to use sleep deprivation as a form of environmental challenge (and thus not very viable past level 7 or so). The characters can't sleep due to X, and thus casters and such are also faced by a resource challenge. I'd prefer if I could encapsulate a challenge of this form within a smaller amount of time, and this would influence the mechanics of my house rule.

Just my opinion, mind you. I'm sure the rule you cited would work just fine.

[Venger]

For this, I'd just crib the Forced March rules, make the base time about 3xCon hours, and have the Con check DC start at 1. That would be for relatively non-strenuous activity like a college student's daily life. Strenuous activity like continuous marching would use the Forced March rules directly.

Also, I'm pretty the IRL record is around a week without sleep, so the official rule seems reasonable.

it's actually 11 days (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Tripp)

he was never the same.

as mentioned earlier, almost every power has a caster (or caster variant) in it, who will insist the party sleep daily. there's no reason not to sleep if you're going to be killing 8 hours anyway, so I'm hard-pressed to think of when exactly this would come up in a normal game.

[Fouredged Sword]

mechanically I am interested as I have a character with high perception skills nd the ability to shift his fatigue to another. He needs "rest" but does not actualy need to sleep.

I figure he can be the party night watchman.

But past getting fatigued, does he suffer any effects from not sleeping? Also if the fatigue is magically cured do the other effects also reset?

[Maginomicon]

But past getting fatigued, does he suffer any effects from not sleeping? Also if the fatigue is magically cured do the other effects also reset?
No. The text describes it in terms of periods. Relieving the symptoms doesn't cure the disease, and likewise removing the fatigue doesn't change the fact that you're going without sleep. In the same way, the Wisdom damage can be removed, but that doesn't mean you won't keep accumulating it.

[olentu]

it's actually 11 days (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Tripp)

he was never the same.

as mentioned earlier, almost every power has a caster (or caster variant) in it, who will insist the party sleep daily. there's no reason not to sleep if you're going to be killing 8 hours anyway, so I'm hard-pressed to think of when exactly this would come up in a normal game.

What kind of crazy adventurers willingly render themselves helpless for long periods of time. That's just asking for the whole killing 8 hours phrase to be taken literally.

[Slipperychicken]

as mentioned earlier, almost every power has a caster (or caster variant) in it, who will insist the party sleep daily. there's no reason not to sleep if you're going to be killing 8 hours anyway, so I'm hard-pressed to think of when exactly this would come up in a normal game.

Yet another unrealistic aspect of D&D RAW: Getting 8 hours of sleep every night.

Maybe their time constraints somehow force them to pull all-nighters? Or they just continuously encounter enemies for multiple days at a time, like if they're in a war situation behind enemy lines, or in the most extreme dungeon ever.

[Susano-wo]

I fail to see how a caster needing plenty of rest to recover his magical energies could be considered unrealistic? (or realistic for that matter):smallfrown:

Dnd doesnt require you to get 8hrs of sleep every single night, it just says that casters cant recover their spells if they cant properly rest

[Phelix-Mu]

Back in 2e it was SOP for the party to get ambushed at night. Now it doesn't happen much past 3rd level. I kind of miss that.

[Stormspace]

I'm obviously coming into this thread really late, but I've come upon this very problem. So without the benefit of finding the rule in the above mentioned reference book, I decided that I'd handle it this way.

A person can go without rest for 8 hours, after that number of hours they must make a Fort check DC10 each hour they stay awake after 8 hours. Each check has a -1 cumulative penalty afterwards. Three failed checks in 3 hours sets the PC in a fatigued state. Potentially making the PC fatigued after 11 hours of being awake.

I haven't thought much beyond that but I was thinking that once the character was fatigued you would start the process again with 3 failed checks making the PC exhausted. Worst case putting the PC at exhausted after 14 hours.

The progression of conditions would be Fatigued, Exhausted, staggered, and dazed. The last stage is unconsciousness.

[Zombimode]

A person can go without rest for 8 hours, after that number of hours they must make a Fort check DC10 each hour they stay awake after 8 hours. Each check has a -1 cumulative penalty afterwards. Three failed checks in 3 hours sets the PC in a fatigued state. Potentially making the PC fatigued after 11 hours of being awake.

Uhm, what?

First, there is no way you are gonna use this in an actual game.
Second, this is ridiculous. Fatigued after 11 hours? Normal persons (not people with a +17 Fort save mod) are getting by for 15+ hours without fatigue on a regular basis.

[Necroticplague]

What exactly 'this period is' could use some better defining. Because it looks like the Tireless feat, which would prevent you from ever becoming Fatigued, would allow you to go forever without sleeping, since the period where you're fatigued never occurs.

[Stormspace]

Uhm, what?

First, there is no way you are gonna use this in an actual game.
Second, this is ridiculous. Fatigued after 11 hours? Normal persons (not people with a +17 Fort save mod) are getting by for 15+ hours without fatigue on a regular basis.

You, or I, are going to need to be more clear. :)

I was saying that potentially a person could be fatigued after 11 hours, not that it was likely. That was a pessimistic example. For an optimistic one, consider your example of a PC with a +17 Fort mod. Assuming he doesn't roll a 1 three times in a row over the 3 checks in 3 hours over whatever period, his minimum roll will be 19 at 9 hours, 18 at 10 hours, 17 at 11, etc. At 24 hours without sleep he still has a +1 on his check against DC10 and he's still not fatigued unless he fails a check 3 times in a row. He would need to go 35 hours before the check was an automatic fail and even then he has to fail three times in a row, so 37 hours. That's pretty herculean in my book.

Conversely a fighter with a +3 Fort check has a normal roll after 11 hours and has to go 21+2 or 23 hours for an automatic fail to become fatigued. Another 23 hours to be exhausted, assuming he succeeds with all of his checks.

So for a normal with +0, we are looking at what I was saying. Pessimistically fatigued after 11 hours or optimistically fatigued after 18+2=20 hours.

The reality is that the PC will become fatigued at somepoint in between based on the luck of the dice, but that's inherent in the system.

[Mordaedil]

RAW, the first option seems really terrible, but RAI it seems like a much more fun way of doing it the very few rare times it comes up in a game, I think.