Dungeoncrashers, Knockbacks, and Bullrushes: OH MY!

[killem2]

The original question has been addressed, this has turned into a general thread about the subject. :smallwink:

Just bringing this conversation from the Q&A section.


Q 1438: This is a dungeoncrasher/knockback question. If I have a 15ft reach, and someone who only has 5ft, wants to walk to me to hit me and gets into my 15ft reach, and I had already activated power attack on my turn (killed a baddie and now his friends are coming at me), this should trigger an attack of opportunity. Easy enough.

Now, if I hit them, do I get to trigger knock back-> bull rush all that?


A 1438 Partially.

Your hit while using Power Attack will trigger a bull rush. However, the Knockback bull rush does not let you move with the enemy. Your body's momentum is what triggers the extra damage from the Dungeon Crasher ACF, and thus you would not receive any bonus even if the enemy was forced back so that they hit a wall.



RE: A 1438
This seems questionable to me, I was more of the understanding that it would work given the raw terms and making sure I was doing them in the right order. Also considering Knock Back existed 3 years before DungeonCrashers were made, I would question the specific use and alteration of the real game term Bull Rush in it.

First,

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).


That's what triggers the damage. The fact that there is momentum doesn't change. If I didn't knock him back in the first place from my own brute strength, he wouldn't have been leaving any spaces at all.

Second


If you score a hit while you are using the Power Attack feat, you can make a free bull rush attempt against the foe you hit, applying the number by which you reduced your attack roll as a bonus on the opposed Strength check (as well as on the damage you deal). If you hit with a twohanded weapon, you can apply double that number on the opposed Strength check. Unlike standard bull rush attempts, knockback attempts don't provoke attacks of opportunity, and you don't move with the enemy you knock backward. Bull rush rules can be found on page 154 of the Player's Handbook.

I bolded the parts that I think seem to point you where you are suppose to go.

I am still doing a bull rush, the Dungeon Crasher doesn't state that you must move with your target to do the damage, it only states that you only get this damage if:

A. Executed a bullrush.

B. Pushed them into a wall or solid object.

I'm actually surprised you of all people, would hold a descriptive word as a rule, rather than what it is: fluff. :smallconfused:

I guess my question is, why didn't they come out and just say Knockback doesn't combine with this effect, like oh when they said Strongarm bracers do not stack with powerful build.

You are hinging a RAW, decision based on a non-game term. I can see where a fluff decision can intervene but I don't see how it can trump rules.

As an side thought, I wonder why a lot of these handbooks about the subject are not updated. This is the first time I've every seen someone bring this aspect of it up. Is this how most of the playground feels?





Re: A 1438

In either kind of bull rush the opponent's momentum is there when they hit the wall. However, in a normal bull rush, but not in a Knockback bull rush, your momentum is also there to crush them against the wall.

Really, you are surprised that I "of all people" would pay attention to every bit of the rules text? :smallconfused: If I have missed the section of the RAW which specifies which parts of the rules are "fluff" and can be ignored, please direct me to that particular section; I'm always eager to improve my understanding of the official workings of D&D. As I see it, "your momentum" is part of the rules for the Dungeon Crasher ACF, and I have answered the question by the RAW.




I guess where I am getting confused is, does a non-dungeon crasher not create momentum when they bull rush?

I just thought the dungeon crasher was better at doing it rather than a normal person doing a bull rush, so to hing it on momentum seems shaky at best to me.

See, I don't see a Knockback Bullrush, I see knockback, and bull rush two different terms, do different abilities in the d&d universe. If it was called a knock back bullrush, I would never have bothered with the question because then I would have equated that to, well dungeon crasher only effects bull rushes not knockback bullrushes.

I also hope I didn't offend you :), I meant nothing by the quote, you just seem to be very good at weeding out text that isn't something in rule terms and we seem to be disagreeing on what is rules text and what isn't.

Like when you helped me a while back about my DM keeping me from using anything from drow of the underdark because he said it was for drows only.



I think it would be fair to say that the opponent's momentum when smashing into the wall IS your momentum. Law of Conservation of Momentum. In either case, you start moving and your opponent is stationary. If you crash into him, as in a normal bull rush, then your mass increases (it is now the sum of your mass and your opponent's) and since momentum must not change, your velocity decreases. P=MV, so Myou*Vyou+Mopp*Vopp(0)=(My+Mo)Vboth. Myou*Vyou=(My+Mo)*Vboth, so your velocity is changed to a factor of Myou/(My+Mo), which is less than it was to start.
Now if you were using Knockback, imagine rushing toward your foe and smashing him like a baseball with your weapon. He goes flying, but you in turn come to a halt. All your momentum goes into him, so Myou*Vyou=Mopp*Vopp. There, the total mass of the final system going into the wall will be less (just your opponent as opposed to both him and you), but the speed with which he does so will be greater. And he will do so with the same momentum in either case. So...I'd say with Dungeoncrasher, smashing someone into a wall will do damage, as long as it was a Bull Rush of some sort that did it.



Can we move the dungeoncrasher knockback question to a separate thread? I can't be the only other person who has an opinion but we shouldn't clutter this thread for it




And so here we are, playgrounds what do you think?

[Vaz]

Being fair, Dungeoncrasher is rather openly worded; I've got a Half Cobalt Dragon Fighter 6 with a Bull rush Breath Weapon (Dragon mag admittedly) doing 50ft Cone Breath attack DC48 Bull rushes every 4-7 Rounds, who is using this, and is quite frankly destroying everything, because we ruled it to effect. Plus, fighter, especially with a LA, they need all the help they can get.

[killem2]

I think there are lots of things that push the morals of "fair" in d&d :D, but the debate at hand is, is the momentum from me Smashing for example my Dwarven Warpike and turning it into a Bull rush, for the dungeon crasher feat the same as the momentum generated from just normally bull rushing someone.


I think the wording is fairly clear from a rules/term stand point. Bullrushes = damage if solid wall is in the way, knockdown grants you a bull rush.

Honestly though, tacking on nother 4d8 or 8d8 when you are most likely going to throw that enemy a good 25 feat and destroy him through attacks of opportunity is moot to me.

[Marnath]

The part about dungeoncrasher using momentum is irrelevant. The rules are clear that a knockback bull rush only differs from the normal kind in that it does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and that you do not move with the target. Your normal bull rush does the extra dice of damage, so your knockback will too.

[UnjustCustos]

Sorry, saw all those worlds in the topic and drooled thinking about JJ's old build.

[Gotterdammerung]

Knockback will trigger Dungeoncrasher. Nowhere in the dungeoncrasher rules does it declare that you need to smoosh your body against someone in order to get the bonus dmg.

It is your momentum that is driving them back in the first place. You don't need to keep following them. It doesn't say that anywhere in ACF and it doesn't even work that way scientifically, as Nettlekid pointed out.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's fluff vs. crunch. Dungeoncrasher seems to imply you're using the pressing of your body to slam a foe into a wall. But all the actual rules require is bull rushing a foe into a wall. So, RAW, Knockback works. As well I think it should. You homerun bat someone into a brick wall, it *should* hurt, and it's kind of lame you need a special alt. class feature and fighter levels to do it.

That said, I think the author figured since normal bull rush requires moving with the foe, he didn't actually realize there were ways to avoid doing so (even though a core feat, Awesome Blow, is practically that...just no actual bull rush check) and intended you to have to move with the foe.

However...screw author intent. The author intent for all of 3E has been for martials to be inferior to casters, so #### it. :smalltongue:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Knockback doesn't state that you do not move with them.
Bull Rush does state that you do move with them.
You move with them when you use Knockback.

[Tar Palantir]

Knockback doesn't state that you do not move with them.
Bull Rush does state that you do move with them.
You move with them when you use Knockback.

Knockback does state that you don't move with them.

Emphasis mine:

Unlike standard bull rush attempts, knockback attempts don't provoke attacks of opportunity, and you don't move with the enemy you knock backward.

[Marnath]

Knockback doesn't state that you do not move with them.
Bull Rush does state that you do move with them.
You move with them when you use Knockback.

You are completely incorrect.


Unlike standard bull rush attempts, knockback attempts don't provoke attacks of opportunity, and you don't move with the enemy you knock backward.

Ninjas everywhere!

[Ramza00]

Being fair, Dungeoncrasher is rather openly worded; I've got a Half Cobalt Dragon Fighter 6 with a Bull rush Breath Weapon (Dragon mag admittedly) doing 50ft Cone Breath attack DC48 Bull rushes every 4-7 Rounds, who is using this, and is quite frankly destroying everything, because we ruled it to effect. Plus, fighter, especially with a LA, they need all the help they can get.

Bullrushing Breath Weapons...where? Which dragon?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Now I remember, you don't move with them but you still move into their space (www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush) when initiating it. That means you transfer your momentum into them to knock them back.

"If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage..."

Since your momentum was transferred to the opponent when you initiated the bull rush, it still deals Dungeoncrasher damage.

[Gotterdammerung]

Now I remember, you don't move with them but you still move into their space (www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush) when initiating it. That means you transfer your momentum into them to knock them back.

"If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage..."

Since your momentum was transferred to the opponent when you initiated the bull rush, it still deals Dungeoncrasher damage.

Exactly, it says "your momentum crushes" it doesn't say "you pancake them with your body against a wall".

"Your momentum" is not you. "Your momentum" is simply your force driving them backwards.

It isn't a case of fluff versus raw. It is a case of misinterpreting the fluff and adding non-existing lines of text then trying to use those to govern the raw.

[Marnath]

Now I remember, you don't move with them but you still move into their space (www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush) when initiating it. That means you transfer your momentum into them to knock them back.

"If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage..."

Since your momentum was transferred to the opponent when you initiated the bull rush, it still deals Dungeoncrasher damage.

I don't think you have to move into their square when you use knockback. You initiated the bullrush by making a regular melee attack, not by body-slamming them. Also, the feat says you do not move with the enemy. It does not say, you do not move beyond their square.

[Vaz]

Bullrushing Breath Weapons...where? Which dragon?

Cobalt. It's found in Dragon 356. Maximised and Shaped with Dragon Breath Feat and the Faster Dragon Breath Feat gets you that ability.

I'm just disappointed it didn't make it into a Compendium.

[Gwendol]

I don't think you have to move into their square when you use knockback. You initiated the bullrush by making a regular melee attack, not by body-slamming them. Also, the feat says you do not move with the enemy. It does not say, you do not move beyond their square.

Right, although the attack has to be made using power attack, so not entirely regular.
I don't think you can occupy the space of your enemy in this case, and that this can be viewed as an explanation to why knockback doesn't provoke AoO's. You simply hit them very hard, using your bulk and weight to push them back. Combined with Dungeon Crasher (and Shock trooper?) you get to deal even more damage by forcing the enemy into solid objects, again simply from the force of the blow (=transfer of momentum).

[killem2]

Talk me through this scenario please.

There is a 25ft wide 50 ft long hall way.

Half way through there, are 3 Kobolds on dire weasels.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9571/mapjg.jpg

I have power attack turned on to +1 damage. I have a reach weapon (10ft).
I am still medium sized right now. Now, I charge the middle guy, stopping with 5ft between us because I can reach him. I hit him, he rolls I smash him against the wall.


Now, lets say the other two, after seeing their friend go flying into a wall 25 ft back and dying, they are not taking any chances and they are booking it.

They of course just flat out try and run, and trigger AoO from me. Assume I take all that I can. I have combat reflexes with dex bonus of +2.

What happens to the other guys.

[Gotterdammerung]

Talk me through this scenario please.

There is a 25ft wide 50 ft long hall way.

Half way through there, are 3 Kobolds on dire weasels.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9571/mapjg.jpg

I have power attack turned on to +1 damage. I have a reach weapon (10ft).
I am still medium sized right now. Now, I charge the middle guy, stopping with 5ft between us because I can reach him. I hit him, he rolls I smash him against the wall.


Now, lets say the other two, after seeing their friend go flying into a wall 25 ft back and dying, they are not taking any chances and they are booking it.

They of course just flat out try and run, and trigger AoO from me. Assume I take all that I can. I have combat reflexes with dex bonus of +2.

What happens to the other guys.

Assuming the 2 forgo any tactical movement like tumbling to avoid AoE's, then you get to make one attack roll on each of them. Assuming that attack hits both of them, the attack will do damage and then it will trigger knockback allowing you a bullrush attempt. Assuming both bullrush attempts succeed it will at least push them back 5 feet which in this scenario puts them into a wall triggering dungeoncrashers bonus damage. Assuming they are still alive they are now free to finish running away and you do not gain a second AoE on them because you can only take 1 AoE per action that provoked. Since you interrupted their movement but did not prevent their capability of moving (unless of course you killed them) they will be free to finish moving away.

Edit: I noticed now that you said they were mounted. That makes things a little complicated. Perhaps for your example you might make them not mounted as WotC doesn't properly explain how bullrushes on a mount or a mounted character work. Included them adds an entirely new discussion (argument) to the equation.

They do have this juicy tidbit to say, which might interest some of you bull rush aficionado's


Bull Rush: Initiating a bull rush while mounted works just like making a melee attack. You and your mount function as a single creature when resolving the bull rush.

Use your mount's size and Strength modifier for the opposed Strength check you make to resolve the bull rush.

Jermlaine Dungeoncrasher fighter/ Pet Elephant/Dire Crocodile/Dire Tortoise build anyone?

[Gwendol]

Agreed. I've been in games where a knock-back attempt against a mounted character triggered a ride check to stay in the saddle. Otoh, if you don't take it into account, who exactly are you bull rushing: the rider or the mount?

[Xaragos]

Now I remember, you don't move with them but you still move into their space (www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush) when initiating it. That means you transfer your momentum into them to knock them back.

"If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage..."

Since your momentum was transferred to the opponent when you initiated the bull rush, it still deals Dungeoncrasher damage.

You do not have to move into the person's space to execute a knockback. If so that only benefits the knockbacker with reach, or better yet ranged silliness from Tome of Battle. Hello free jump around movement throughout the battlefield.

Edit: The way I think of it is this. The entering a defender's space is to initiate a Bull Rush right? But the Bull Rush in this case (which as per the knockback feat is nonstandard) has already been initiated. All you really are doing is the opposed strength check with the bonus from damage done to see if and how far you push the enemy.

[killem2]

Assuming the 2 forgo any tactical movement like tumbling to avoid AoE's, then you get to make one attack roll on each of them. Assuming that attack hits both of them, the attack will do damage and then it will trigger knockback allowing you a bullrush attempt. Assuming both bullrush attempts succeed it will at least push them back 5 feet which in this scenario puts them into a wall triggering dungeoncrashers bonus damage. Assuming they are still alive they are now free to finish running away and you do not gain a second AoE on them because you can only take 1 AoE per action that provoked. Since you interrupted their movement but did not prevent their capability of moving (unless of course you killed them) they will be free to finish moving away.

Edit: I noticed now that you said they were mounted. That makes things a little complicated. Perhaps for your example you might make them not mounted as WotC doesn't properly explain how bullrushes on a mount or a mounted character work. Included them adds an entirely new discussion (argument) to the equation.

They do have this juicy tidbit to say, which might interest some of you bull rush aficionado's



Jermlaine Dungeoncrasher fighter/ Pet Elephant/Dire Crocodile/Dire Tortoise build anyone?

I have a dire lion, i could ride into combat, that could make things interesting lol.

But, outside from that, this helps me alot. Under normal circumstances, I'm sure the kobolds would just take a 5ft step and try to attack me.


Are there any rules out there for say, I am large, and I am pull rushing two small creatures in a 10ft wide hall way? Can you bull rush multiple people?

[ddude987]

I would say that from what I know of dnd there is no momentum so that statement is pure fluff.

[killem2]

Ok, I've got another question:

I started by raging, and activating a power attack of 1. I am large.

Creature with 5ft reach only is charging me.

I currently am large with a reach of 20ft.

When the charging creature enters my threatened squares to be able to hit me with its charge, it triggers my Attack of Opportunity.

Do I resolve the AoO mid charge and knock back the charger or does he get to me, but then I get to hit him?

The charger is a Tiger and can Improve Grab me if he hits me.

One way or the other, this tiger is either denied his charge or I am denied my attack of opportunity.

Which is it?

[StreamOfTheSky]

An AoO happens in the space that it was provoked and disrupts and resolves before whatever triggers it.

If you have 10 ft reach and the charging tiger has 5 ft reach, it provokes for trying to leave the space 10 ft away from you, and that occurs BEFORE it leaves that space.

Yes, Knockback with reach and Combat Reflexes is brutal vs. charges and pouncers. I have specifically single-handedly shut down encounters with packs of dire tigers with a mid level character solely thanks to Knockback

Having Cometary Collision + Steadfast Boots + Pounce certainly helped, too... my guy was kind of built specifically for giant slaying and utterly destroying big dumb brutes. Which I know is pretty easy for a low level caster to do... I thought being able to do it in melee as a noncaster was a cool novelty.

[killem2]

An AoO happens in the space that it was provoked and disrupts and resolves before whatever triggers it.

If you have 10 ft reach and the charging tiger has 5 ft reach, it provokes for trying to leave the space 10 ft away from you, and that occurs BEFORE it leaves that space.

Yes, Knockback with reach and Combat Reflexes is brutal vs. charges and pouncers. I have specifically single-handedly shut down encounters with packs of dire tigers with a mid level character solely thanks to Knockback

Having Cometary Collision + Steadfast Boots + Pounce certainly helped, too... my guy was kind of built specifically for giant slaying and utterly destroying big dumb brutes. Which I know is pretty easy for a low level caster to do... I thought being able to do it in melee as a noncaster was a cool novelty.

That is so disgusting.

By chance does the charger keep moving in the direction they were going upto 2x their run speed or do they just get knocked back and its over with ?

[Urpriest]

That is so disgusting.

By chance does the charger keep moving in the direction they were going upto 2x their run speed or do they just get knocked back and its over with ?

They get to continue their charge if they can still get to you. Otherwise they instead made a move or double move, depending on how far they went before the AOO.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Hmm, I think Cometary Collision causes their charge to end, though. And knocking them back means there is no one for them to attack there. And Steadfast Boots are hyper-broken because RAW they just let you repeatedly drop your init down and pretend like you had readied an action to set against charge.

I suppose w/o Cometary Collision you could accomplish the same thing w/ Rampaging Bullrush feat, to send the enemy further than it can reach you and knock it prone, effectively ending its charge. Or Shock Trooper (which I also had... :smallcool:) if there is another enemy to bowl him into and thus knock both prone.

Uber chargers may be deadly, but the game allows for you to f*** up a charger, real REAL bad if you build for it, lol.

[killem2]

Hmm, I think Cometary Collision causes their charge to end, though. And knocking them back means there is no one for them to attack there. And Steadfast Boots are hyper-broken because RAW they just let you repeatedly drop your init down and pretend like you had readied an action to set against charge.

I suppose w/o Cometary Collision you could accomplish the same thing w/ Rampaging Bullrush feat, to send the enemy further than it can reach you and knock it prone, effectively ending its charge. Or Shock Trooper (which I also had... :smallcool:) if there is another enemy to bowl him into and thus knock both prone.

Uber chargers may be deadly, but the game allows for you to f*** up a charger, real REAL bad if you build for it, lol.

My DM is big on Kobolds at the moment, so i don't see many of them charging, but I plan on playing Kobowling, quite often for the next few sessions. :smallsigh:

[Draz74]

I would say that from what I know of dnd there is no momentum so that statement is pure fluff.
As a physicist, I must endorse this statement. D&D already breaks conservation of momentum six ways from Tuesday.


Yes, Knockback with reach and Combat Reflexes is brutal vs. charges and pouncers.

DMs need to learn to have their pouncing monsters learn the Tumble skill (if not Tome of Battle maneuvers).

[JadePhoenix]

Cobalt. It's found in Dragon 356. Maximised and Shaped with Dragon Breath Feat and the Faster Dragon Breath Feat gets you that ability.

I'm just disappointed it didn't make it into a Compendium.

It was published after the Compendium.

[Xaragos]

Along with this discussion...what do folks think are the optimized items for a Dungeoncrasher/Knockback fighter?

[Vaz]

It was published after the Compendium.

"a", not "the".

Volume 1 suggests there was going to be a second one, that which never got made.

[Gwendol]

Strength enhancing items, boots of the battlecharger or similar, valorous weapon, etc.

[killem2]

Along with this discussion...what do folks think are the optimized items for a Dungeoncrasher/Knockback fighter?

I plan on getting those battle charger boots, that as long as you have an item that gives a dex enhancement, you can run across any terrain.

This may not be always needed, but i can see my DM putting an easy stop to my charging shenanigans lol.

[JadePhoenix]

"a", not "the".

Volume 1 suggests there was going to be a second one, that which never got made.

Oh, indeed. Sorry.

[killem2]

Here's something else for those who have played these fighters all the way.

What do you do past the fighter levels? I was able to get the Zhentarim variant, but honestly its neat for 3 and 5, but is it really worth sticking with fighter through level 9, just for that swift action indimidate if I don't actually plan on using that to its extreme optimization?



I like the idea of Psychic Warrior but not the loss of BAB. The Expansion is awesome, but my DM really loves his dungeons. We are not very far into our adventure so I may be able to change my tune a bit more, but at the moment the encounters have taen place in cramped spaces where large is pretty much the max, though if this next session is kind I can draw the enemy to the entry chamber.

Is there any excellent full BAB progression classes that get along with the dungeon crasher?

[Gwendol]

Crusader, barbarian, comes to mind.

Really, crusaders make for fearsome chargers.

[killem2]

Crusader, barbarian, comes to mind.

Really, crusaders make for fearsome chargers.

Are the favored weapons listed in TOB for the stances and manuevers hard requirements?

[Gwendol]

I don't think so, why?

[killem2]

I don't think so, why?

under the desriptions of the names like dragon spirit or whatever, it mentions favored weapons, didn't know if that was a requirement.

[flare'90]

under the desriptions of the names like dragon spirit or whatever, it mentions favored weapons, didn't know if that was a requirement.

They are required to use some feats linked to the school (Shadow Blade, Gloom Razor, Shards of Granite,...).

Otherwise you can initiate maneuvers with any weapon* you like, even natural weapons or unarmed strikes.

*Maybe excluding ranged weapons, but don't quote me on that, i'm not an expert.

[killem2]

They are required to use some feats linked to the school (Shadow Blade, Gloom Razor, Shards of Granite,...).

Otherwise you can initiate maneuvers with any weapon* you like, even natural weapons or unarmed strikes.

*Maybe excluding ranged weapons, but don't quote me on that, i'm not an expert.

Something to consider for sure then.

I really like psychic warrior too though, I suppose it's got a lot to offer besides expansion, its just the one thing I want the most.

Is there anything else in psychic warrior that helps a dungeon crasher besides expansion? Just don't want it going to waste!