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View Full Version : Game System Writing month-- Interest? Discussion?



Deffers
2013-04-15, 09:05 PM
Hi, guys. I asked a mod, and he said the right place to put a thread for interest and discussion about this idea would be here (if it works, we'd post the results in Homebrew, of course).

Well, I'm guessing you're all familiar with NaNoWriMo, or close to all of you are. If you're not, it's National Novel Writing Month, where you're supposed to work on a novel for the whole month so that by the end of it, you have your own book.

I figured-- why not do the same for game systems?

Look, I'm thinking a whole lot of us have a "dream system" we'd like to see happen. Something we've idly considered and thought about for ages, and always were putting off or not sure about, or whatever. So I figured, why not make something like NaNoWriMo, but with your game system? That way you can just get something out there, and once you have it out there it's that much easier to actually work on it.

So, would you guys be interested in doing something like that and helping to organize it? When would be the best date for such an event? I'm guessing summer, for all the college and high school tabletop gamers. Should we make this a cross-website thing, or just an "in the Playground" thing?

I was thinking that, all throughout the month we could have a sorta workshop thread where all the designers helped each other out, and gave each other tips and pointers. It'd be super interesting, I think! It'd let us all make the game system we've been planning, and then help each other improve on top of that. Maybe we could, at the end of the month, have a sort of contest to see who's made the best system? That'll be all sorts of fun. Maybe we could even get illustrators in the Playground to make us pictures for our game systems.

It seems like a really good idea, so I figured I'd put it to the test-- what do you all think? Is there interest in this idea?

valadil
2013-04-15, 09:09 PM
I'm not sure this is a good idea, but I'm also not sure that would stop me. Sounds fun!

I would also vote for it being an ITP thing. If it goes well, let other people join in next year.

While NaNo makes sense as a solo effort, does this? I feel like game systems are usually built by teams instead of individuals. Is that assumption correct? Could this also work for groups?

Grinner
2013-04-15, 09:18 PM
Wasn't there something like this last November, running in parallel with NaNoWriMo?

Mnemophage
2013-04-15, 09:28 PM
Valadil brings up a lot of good points. A group effort co-challenge and followup Playtest Month would bring out a lot more interesting content.

The thing about NaNoWriMo, though, is that as it is a challenge rather than a contest, the rules are flexible and limited pretty much only by what you set for yourself. Regardless, there's one hard and fast rule - reach 50,000 words - that I'm not sure would work for a game system.

With that in mind, we need to figure out a finish line. Just saying "go until the end of the month" won't work, as without the stable daily flogging of 1,667 words per day it's very easy to just sort of let it slide. Benchmarks would be necessary.

Grinner
2013-04-15, 09:38 PM
Valadil brings up a lot of good points. A group effort co-challenge and followup Playtest Month would bring out a lot more interesting content.

The thing about NaNoWriMo, though, is that as it is a challenge rather than a contest, the rules are flexible and limited pretty much only by what you set for yourself. Regardless, there's one hard and fast rule - reach 50,000 words - that I'm not sure would work for a game system.

With that in mind, we need to figure out a finish line. Just saying "go until the end of the month" won't work, as without the stable daily flogging of 1,667 words per day it's very easy to just sort of let it slide. Benchmarks would be necessary.

Well, the thing is that games and novels are two very different sorts of media. 50,000 words is a lot, but for a novel, that's to be expected. For games, word count doesn't seem to be as good of a standard. I imagine creating a rule takes more thought than a paragraph in a novel.

valadil
2013-04-15, 09:49 PM
Well, the thing is that games and novels are two very different sorts of media. 50,000 words is a lot, but for a novel, that's to be expected. For games, word count doesn't seem to be as good of a standard. I imagine creating a rule takes more thought than a paragraph in a novel.

Rules also take more behind the scenes. I might have a list of 10 suits of armor, the defense bonus they provide, and their monetary value. A *lot* of math has gone into balancing those values. No word count metrics will be able to detect how much math work went into the balancing.

If you wanted to make something more like NaNo, an adventure writing month would work. Not that I'm saying we shouldn't do game systems, just that if you want a metric like word count, something wordy will work better.

Deffers
2013-04-15, 09:50 PM
Huh. Well, maybe there could be a team and a solo division? Like, the solo division would invite people for rules-light games and stuff, while the team division is for those who are interested in a more intense creation?

Now that I think about it, there'd probably be a need for milestones.

Maybe, say, uh...

-Character Generation

-Conflict Resolution

-Non-Conflict Items

-Social Aspect

Like, character generation is pretty simple. There's three criteria. How easy is it to make a character, how many different kinds of characters can you make, and how fun is it to make a character?

Conflict resolution is a bit more complicated. Does your system have combat rules? How does it resolve opposed actions? How can you make player vs. NPC interactions work? The breadth, simplicity, and fun factor of these conflict resolution aspects would be judged. An example is Risus's dice system, or d20's whole initiative-combat thing, GURPS has its incredibly complicated stuff that'd probably get it marked down for simpicity but hella ups for breadth, or, hell, if you wanna go for an example of what not to do, FATAL's... stuff. Yunno, the stuff it's infamous for. That's a meteoric zero right there.

Non-conflict items is, what does your game system have outside of conflict resolution mechanics? Does it have fluff? Does it have statted enemies? Do you have interesting items and hooks for GMs and players to use? Does it help cover something conflict resolution can't? This one would be judged by how much the non-combat aspects enrich the system, or if they detract from the system. d20's got items like tanglefoot bags and golems and goblins and all that **** as at least samples of what you can do with the system. GURPS would get an excellent score here, probably the best thing the system does. Risus has none of this, so it'd get a pretty poor score. FATAL's items make an impossibly bad game somehow even worse and break reality, so it'd get a low score.

The social aspect is a bit of a harder point to pin down. Is this system easy for a group of people to sit down and play? Is it comfortable? Are player interactions meaningfully supported by the system, and does the system complement player interaction? d20 is a system that people can get together and play even in a pretty large group without the whole thing falling apart. Risus provides bare bones stuff that means it's great to break out at parties and stuff like that. GURPS can... it can work but you need effort and a pretty small group to support it within a reasonable timeframe. FATAL is such a catastrophic failure you'll be shunned for mentioning its name in public. Again, low rating.

So, any other possible criteria?

valadil
2013-04-15, 10:00 PM
So, any other possible criteria?

I was thinking something like this could work. Maybe list a bunch of milestones or features and the systems that implemented them got more points. Magic system. Campaign setting (original or tie-in to existing system).

Deffers
2013-04-15, 10:22 PM
I put it in the broadest terms possible in case someone wants to, say, make a future/sci-fi RPG and doesn't feel like fitting in a magic-analogue.

Campaign setting is a good one, though! Definitely a good one if people wanna test out their RPG.

Zahhak
2013-04-15, 10:48 PM
I'm not sure how well a system writing month will do, because few people have the patience or interest in writing an entire gaming system. Maybe if it was something like "National Game Production Month" where people were making RPG systems, settings, adventures, or starting webcomics or youtube series, that might get some better attention.

erikun
2013-04-16, 12:05 AM
I find your order of milestones odd. For example, character creation would probably be one of the first things you think of, but last things you complete. You want to keep in mind what you want a character able to do, but the exact ranges of values won't be easily identified until you have completed the relevant parts of the system. Similarly, the "social aspect" in some systems could be as large as (or larger than) the individual combat aspect, basically asking those people to complete half their system (or more) in the same timeframe that OD&D retro-clones just write down "roll d20 under ability score".


As for my thoughts, I'd think the design process would look something like this:

Design concept (what you want your game to include, be about, and involve)
Mechanic concept (what resolution mechanics or general mechanics you want to use)
Mechanics limits (what you want the system to do and not do; what you explicitly want the system to not have rules for)
Design limits (what you do and do not want the system to do; what concepts you want the system to avoid)

From there, you would probably want to focus on the general aspects of the system: how physical interaction/mechanics work, how social mechanics/interaction works, conflict and conflict resolution, and so on.

I also can't help but think that a "Game System Writing Month" would be better served with making it clear what you want at each step. As someone pointed out, the goal of NaNoWrMo is that 1,667 words per day goal; such a thing doesn't make sense for game design. Perhaps set some sort of individual weekly goal for each "stage" (concept, mechanics/interaction, conflict resolution) for individuals to post their work at each stage and compare? Actually, thinking about just what you want this to produce might help in determining how the whole thing should operate.

Deffers
2013-04-16, 12:43 AM
Well, really, I figured each system would have people develop this stuff at their own pace, and at the end of the month they'd have something together. But then the other playgrounders brought up exactly how had that makes this compared to NaNoWriMo, because that has set goals. Mostly, what I fundamentally wanted out of this was, say, people cooperating and comparing the methods they use to create certain elements of an RPG system, and by getting people together to do this for a month of fervent game-making, getting a sorta codified set of observations.

Therefore, I think it'd best serve the goals of the system writing month to have milestones that serve that specific process.

Design concept would be a good "day one" milestone, though, I would agree. Like people come in knowing what general directions and concepts they want to employ in their game system. Sounds cool!

Jenfrag
2013-04-16, 01:53 AM
It's a good idea but we must bare in mind that a game isn't not like a novel. Although,I'd support this one. We must have someone who can show us a single result first. ;)

NichG
2013-04-16, 01:53 AM
This idea is a lot closer to the contests to make a computer game in a week/weekend/whatever. The key element is 'the result must be in a playable and completely self-contained state at the end of the month'. The 50k word thing in NaNoWriMo is sort of a 'everyone can write a book' thing - the point is sort of to show people what they can accomplish with a focused effort. For a game system writing month I feel like the focus would be more to encourage people to think outside the box of established systems and to try making their own stuff, as well as to try out ideas that might be more experimental than one'd want to use on an existing campaign.

So yeah, the playtest month following the writing month is pretty crucial. The big point is that people trying this will have others who are willing to actually try out what they've created. Maybe something like, everyone who writes a system is encouraged to help two other people test theirs.

Totally Guy
2013-04-16, 02:27 AM
There is the annual game chef contest coming up. It's not a whole month as it between May 17th and May 26th this year. It gets a fair bit of attention.

A couple of years back I made a thread about it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207245) and fellow Playgrounder Human Paragon 3 won with his entry Forsooth! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245589)

Although published and expanded the Playground paid surprisingly little attention to it. :smallsigh:

Deffers
2013-04-16, 09:58 AM
That sounds kinda like what I was talking about, only I was envisioning something a tad less competitive and a tad more "game writing cooperative workshop that's a month long, with a little friendly competition at the end to see who made the best system and thereby helping us to learn about what makes a good game. "

Totally Guy
2013-04-16, 10:33 AM
When you put it that way it sounds like an idea I can get behind.

Deffers
2013-04-16, 02:14 PM
Yeah, I mean... even though the processes behind writing a novel and writing a game system are hella different, I think some of the motivational problems are the exact same, and so are some of the creative problems. People keep putting it off or not thinking they'll have a good product and they always think of it in terms of an in the future thing.

The idea was to make a month where that future becomes the present. It doesn't have to be a completely polished product-- polishing can come later. What's important is to have something out there, and tangible, and you wrote it. It's there. You've dreamed of making this game system for years, and lo and behold-- you've done it. And all along the way you had people helping you and you helped other people,and you learned something about your hobby while you were doing it. And at the end of it, there was a fun competition where you guys sat down and played, and it was awesome to finally get to run and play your system and see whose was the most fun.

That's kinda what I want, and why I want it, and I think it's definitely worth pursuing.

valadil
2013-04-16, 02:35 PM
The idea was to make a month where that future becomes the present. It doesn't have to be a completely polished product-- polishing can come later. What's important is to have something out there, and tangible, and you wrote it. It's there. You've dreamed of making this game system for years, and lo and behold-- you've done it.

Word. I started my system in 2008 or 2009. I've put a ton of thought into it, but haven't really worked on it much since then because I'm stuck at a few speedbumps and I don't think anyone would play anyway. I doubt I'm the only one. If this happens, it would get me to a point where I'd at least have enough written that I'd want to continue.

Mnemophage
2013-04-16, 04:28 PM
I like the ideas presented so far. Erikun has provided a good rubric, especially because some things tend to be more fluid than others and, thus, take less time. I might know exactly what I want my system to be about and how I'd like the mechanics to interact, but actually working out the numbers and getting things to a roughly playable state is going to take a lot more time, at least for me. Others might function at a different pace, being very good with the numbers aspect but a bit hazy on concept. This makes things fluid enough for time allocation to be a fairly comfortable thing.

As I believe sheer terror is a NaNoWriMo concept that is immensely valuable, and because I believe the playtest month following the design month to be a crucial aspect of the whole deal, why not combine the two? When you sign up as a designer, you also agree to playtest someone else's game. This means no chickening out: what you make will be immediately viewed by three to five other people. It's also very, very scary, and so there's a lot of impetus to get something kind of sort of maybe finished.

Deffers
2013-04-16, 05:03 PM
I like it! Writing month followed by playtesting month. It's a good idea! We even have a PbP forum here, so it'd work fine.

I was thinking June might be a good writing month. Would July be a good playtest month?

valadil
2013-04-16, 05:48 PM
Playtest question. Would the system writers come up with an adventure for testing or is writing that part of the responsibility of the testers?

Deffers
2013-04-16, 06:17 PM
...Jeez, I hadn't really thought about that question. I mean, I guess it'd have to be something agreed-on by both the writer and the testers, right? I mean, if the testers go, "Oooh, THESE aspects of your system are really cool, can we test these?" and the writer is all like, "...but I wanted you to test THIS" we're at a bit of an impasse. That, in itself, is a pretty major organizational hurdle.

NichG
2013-04-16, 07:54 PM
Actually, it might be interesting to see what happens when you write a system but someone else must take your written rules, understand them, and use them to craft an adventure of their own. This is generally the problem with running your own playtests - of course you understand your own rules since you wrote them, but someone reading your work isn't going to understand them in the same way.

Deffers
2013-04-16, 08:14 PM
...Also a good point. Maybe the DMs merely provide input on what focus they want in the playtest, and the testers go from there?

CombatOwl
2013-04-16, 08:21 PM
I'm not sure how well a system writing month will do, because few people have the patience or interest in writing an entire gaming system. Maybe if it was something like "National Game Production Month" where people were making RPG systems, settings, adventures, or starting webcomics or youtube series, that might get some better attention.

Oh, you can certainly do a rules lite game in a month. I put a reasonably complete system and setting together in a proper printable pdf inside two weeks. I even had a short beginning adventure complete with a dozen full color maps. It's doable on your own if you're doing something rules-lite; if you have to deal with game mechanics that require meticulous balancing (I.E. crunch heavy games) then you can forget that as any kind of solo effort.

IMO, there should instead be an "Indie Game Month" where people playtest submissions made over a three month period beforehand. It could really help people who want to start making indie games get some early exposure for potential kickstarter projects in the future.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-04-16, 08:34 PM
This is actually the premise behind NaGaDeMon (http://nagademon.com/) (National Game Design Month). Instead of (or, you brave soul, in addition to) writing a novel in November, you write your game.

Insofar as design--if I did it, I'd try and pose the following challenge to myself: pick an element of an RPG that you feel is essential (or at least critically important), then write an RPG that doesn't use that element in any way. Great way to stretch your design skills and figure out why games are the way they are.

Grinner
2013-04-16, 08:37 PM
Wasn't there something like this last November, running in parallel with NaNoWriMo?


This is actually the premise behind NaGaDeMon (http://nagademon.com/) (National Game Design Month). Instead of (or, you brave soul, in addition to) writing a novel in November, you write your game.

That's the one.

mabriss lethe
2013-04-16, 08:47 PM
This would be fantastic.

Here's a thought for the playtesting side of things. Agree upon a short list of genre appropriate or (even better) genre neutral adventures in advance, The DMs playtesting the event pick one of the scenarios, flesh it out a bit and reskin it for the type of game they want, and see how the rules accommodate several benchmark tasks.

Each adventure should hit the same mechanical high points. There should be combat scenarios, social interactions, and problem solving elements plus whatever else anyone can reasonably agree upon.

Each adventure should include a GM score sheet so that s/he can record how the game mechanics fared against the stress testing, where it succeed and where it failed, along with space for a general review when it's over.

NichG
2013-04-16, 09:28 PM
I think you can even do crunch-heavy within a NaNoWriMo-style month (e.g. one in which you're working on the system for ~5 hours a day at least). Mostly I imagine that making it look professional is the most time consuming part, but for something like a NaNoWriMo event that's not required or even desirable.

Deffers
2013-04-16, 10:32 PM
OK, so you guys would still be interested in this even if there already is NaGaDeMon ? I mean, ours is specific to tabletop RPGs, while theirs is... not. And we've decided we're gonna have a dedicated support network to make sure these games get playtested. That sounds to me like it's a hell of an improvement, even if there's already a similar event.

And as to the time commitment, I'm thinking it really depends on how far the individual wants to take it. Microlite d20 took between a few hours and a few days, IIRC (please be aware I might not RC). DnD probably... probably took a little longer.

valadil
2013-04-17, 08:14 AM
OK, so you guys would still be interested in this even if there already is NaGaDeMon ? I mean, ours is specific to tabletop RPGs, while theirs is... not. And we've decided we're gonna have a dedicated support network to make sure these games get playtested. That sounds to me like it's a hell of an improvement, even if there's already a similar event.


Absolutely. I'd rather do this sort of thing with my favorite internet community than a bunch of randoms.



And as to the time commitment, I'm thinking it really depends on how far the individual wants to take it. Microlite d20 took between a few hours and a few days, IIRC (please be aware I might not RC). DnD probably... probably took a little longer.

Here's the thing about D&D though. It's modular. Nobody is going to write the entire PHB in a month. But you could probably have stats and skills, few classes - fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric for sure - several dozen feats, and several dozen spells. That attainable. If you actually get that far and it's a decent system, write more spells.

Mnemophage
2013-04-17, 04:48 PM
Here's the thing about D&D though. It's modular. Nobody is going to write the entire PHB in a month. But you could probably have stats and skills, few classes - fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric for sure - several dozen feats, and several dozen spells. That attainable. If you actually get that far and it's a decent system, write more spells.

Exactly. The point is to have a functional SYSTEM, after which relevant parts can be slotted in in less time. Get the numbers together, work out mechanics for the important parts that you want to be central to your game, and provide a few of the more critical interpretations of that central mechanic.

I'd be up for this. I've been bumping around ideas in my head since the thread started, and pretty much settled on a diceless (gulp) spaceship combat game as a target. Given as I'd be working entirely without the random element, balance will be tricky and important, and getting that down pat will take the bulk of my time. After that, though, I could probably pump out more spaceships/racial options with less difficulty.

Grinner
2013-04-17, 05:19 PM
Here's the thing about D&D though. It's modular. Nobody is going to write the entire PHB in a month. But you could probably have stats and skills, few classes - fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric for sure - several dozen feats, and several dozen spells. That attainable. If you actually get that far and it's a decent system, write more spells.

Which brings up another point: Is the objective to make a system or a game? Making just a system would likely require that it be original. Making a game (system plus setting) might allow participants to work off extant open systems.

NichG
2013-04-17, 07:05 PM
I'd have something for this if it were last month - I just finished getting the core parts of a new system down for my next campaign. As much as I love this idea, I don't see myself writing a second system so soon.

Deffers
2013-04-17, 08:07 PM
Me, I'll probably be making a system I've been dreaming about for years. In it, you basically play as Eldritch abominations using a GURPS-esque point buy system to determine exactly in what way you're zoologically dubious and generally spooky.

I imagine three tiers of play, kinda like in DnD with the paragon heroic epic dealie, or however it goes. In the first you're the sorta thing a prepared inspector could take out, in the second you're like Cthulhu, and in the third you're Nyarlathotep, Yog-Sothoth, and similarly ridiculously powerful cosmic beasties. There's various flavors of eldritch ooglie-booglie, ranging from something that starts off recognizable as one of the Fair Folk to something that's like demons, and a few other different kinds of monster each with their own special attributes and stuff. You could play as the color out of space, or even a human (though the game's nowhere near balanced for THOSE poor sods).

I envision two settings. One where the players try to play cosmic horrors straight (gets hard when you can eat planets) and Wuxia With Tentacles, which is exactly what you'd imagine, that is to say pure HELL YES.

Anyway, that's my system I'm planning to make.